August 19, 200915 yr Agree!! This is my favorite image from the plan. Why? Because it reinforces our connection to the water. I wonder if it could be constructed in a way that would be pleasing aesthetically but also function as a constructed wetland/stream to filter water run-off. It does not appear to connect into the lake, so I'm unsure if this makes sense.
August 19, 200915 yr Can CLE's waterfront rival Toronto's? Interesting facts about the Toronto waterfront from Cool Cleveland newsletter: http://www.coolcleveland.com/index.php?n=Main.Biasella081909
August 19, 200915 yr Can CLE's waterfront rival Toronto's? Interesting facts about the Toronto waterfront from Cool Cleveland newsletter: http://www.coolcleveland.com/index.php?n=Main.Biasella081909 wow! thats an incredible article and a great read.. thanks so much for sharing! im so jeal!
August 19, 200915 yr Can CLE's waterfront rival Toronto's? Interesting facts about the Toronto waterfront from Cool Cleveland newsletter: http://www.coolcleveland.com/index.php?n=Main.Biasella081909 Good read... as long as you can make it past the fragments (sorry Jeff). The idea of creating an separate entity to develop the waterfront is intriguing indeed. Sort of akin to UCI and I think we all agree that UCI, especially under Ronyane's leadership, has done wonders for University Circle's growth and development.
August 19, 200915 yr Cleveland struggles because its leaders can't plan or keep a pledge by Dominic A. LoGalbo
August 19, 200915 yr This line right here... to me anyways... discredits anything this individual has to say. "The Euclid Corridor cost the city nearly 100 businesses and left the avenue bleak and uninhabited."
August 19, 200915 yr He makes some good points, but he's characterization of the Euclid Corridor Project sounds like an editorial right of the PD.
August 19, 200915 yr Dominic LoGalbo ... nice try, Dick Feagler. I'm on to your fancy pseudonym ;) Ugh ... There are some good points, although to follow this line of logic, why advance any development plan in the entirety of the city, if the public trust is that badly scarred? What if Ari Maron had responded to this line of logic and said, "Nah ... No East 4th Street ... Can't trust the city"? It sounds like a "Disbelieve in Cleveland" campaign to me. And frankly, despite many, many hiccups, I think the ECP was a freaking miracle, psychiatric hospital and transitional housing or not.
August 19, 200915 yr Any idea what they may be revealing that we haven't already seen? "Return to the Lakefront" Thursday, August 20th 12 noon The City Club of Cleveland 850 Euclid Ave The second forum in the Downtown Quarterly Series "Return to the Lakefront" will be held this Thursday, August 20th at noon at the City Club of Cleveland (850 Euclid Ave) Join Adam Wasserman, President and CEO of the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority and Stan Eckstut, architect, Ehrenkrantz Eckstut and Kuhn as they unveil for the first time ever to the public the plans for the lakefront redevelopment. Be a part of this lunchtime panel discussion this Thursday, and learn all about the revised plans for Cleveland's lakefront. There will be the traditional City Club Q&A session with members of the audience following the discussion. For more information about the event or to register click here or call 216.621.0082
August 19, 200915 yr What exactly about the ECP is miraculous? Compared to what was promised, the ECP is a disappointment. The street looks great, but operations of the line are still a little screwy by most accounts, compared to what was advertised, and the biggest development along the thing so far is transitional housing and a psychiatric hospital. A "miracle" to me is something that blows one's mind...defies and exceeds expectations. That has not happened in the least. On topic, the writer raises some valid points, but my sense is his opinion is strongly colored by the 55th St. Marina thing. He worked on and envisioned a lakefront plan wherein the port was moved west and his marina was safe. They then scrapped those plans and now there's going to be a port there and he's not happy. The argument IS valid, however. How much time and funds were spent creating that 2004 waterfront plan? What exactly is the current firm doing that could not have been done without the 2004 plan? It's easy for me as a regular schmo to say "Nothing." These guys have their own vision for the area and are putting it forward. It looks good to me. But what is to say that these drawings won't be chucked into the bin in 4-5 years like the last 2 impressive drawings?
August 19, 200915 yr What exactly about the ECP is miraculous? Compared to what was promised, the ECP is a disappointment. The street looks great, but operations of the line are still a little screwy by most accounts, compared to what was advertised, and the biggest development along the thing so far is transitional housing and a psychiatric hospital. A "miracle" to me is something that blows one's mind...defies and exceeds expectations. That has not happened in the least. On topic, the writer raises some valid points, but my sense is his opinion is strongly colored by the 55th St. Marina thing. He worked on and envisioned a lakefront plan wherein the port was moved west and his marina was safe. They then scrapped those plans and now there's going to be a port there and he's not happy. The argument IS valid, however. How much time and funds were spent creating that 2004 waterfront plan? What exactly is the current firm doing that could not have been done without the 2004 plan? It's easy for me as a regular schmo to say "Nothing." These guys have their own vision for the area and are putting it forward. It looks good to me. But what is to say that these drawings won't be chucked into the bin in 4-5 years like the last 2 impressive drawings? Did you read what you typed? I guess all the developmet happening on Euclid "just happened"? ::) The ECP is not some silver bullet or meant to bring INSTANT CHANGE but be a CATALYST for change over time.
August 19, 200915 yr Well, I'm sure you all know where I stand regarding the PD. Yes, the city has faults. However, I'm a believer in this city. Bringing up Erieview- is ancient history. Different times, different social structure, different everything. The Flats would be under construction right now if not for a couple hold-out property owners, followed by a collapse in the lending market. Saying that Euclid is a disaster does not point to all the positive growth occurring or that will occur on the street in the near future. Chris Warren stated there were 3 dozen projects planned for Euclid in Midtown- and I believe him. The street has too much potential to just let sit. The one point he is correct on, in my opinion, is the county debacle which occurred regarding the Breuer tower, and county leadership in general. County residents saw it happening first hand, and knew something shady was going on in the deal. We've known that Dimora was a crook- but what we didn't know was that the Feds were on to him and all of his friends. Thankfully, we'll see some type of justice for their wrongdoings.
August 19, 200915 yr As far as Erieview, it's history, but I don't think it's inappropriate to bring up. I disagree with the assessment of Euclid as a failure, but I certainly wouldn't consider it miraculous. I didn't think that Eaton needed to be mentioned, it had little to do with his point. When it comes to the lakefront plan, I understand the guy has a bias against the port move, but I think he's got a good point. I'd hate to see the current plans thrown away because someone came up with something "better" a few years from now.
August 19, 200915 yr Sorry, I overstated. Or understated. I never called it a disaster, but a miracle, it's not. And how's this for saying something about the Cuyahoga County voter: We've known that Dimora was a crook- but what we didn't know was that the Feds were on to him and all of his friends. How long have the people known that Dimora was a crook, and how many times did the people elect him? If the Democratic party machine that got behind him, stayed behind him, and he had the minerals to run again, I don't feel comfortable (even now that he's being investigated) that he wouldn't get re-elected. Anyway, it is very important that all obstacles to getting the first phases of this plan underway are eliminated, and that any entity putting up obstacles is held accountable. For example, if Forest City Enterprises wants the Lakefront Plan moved down the river so it can be put behind Tower City...
August 19, 200915 yr Well I think this time around many of those obstacles ARE eliminated. The Port owns this land, they are the ones driving this. And Wasserman has shown me he's not interested in playing games as usual as soon as he told Eaton to buzz off because they wanted not only a ridiculous amount of the developable land but also to put even more ridiculous restrictions on what sort of development could take place in the surrounding areas.
August 19, 200915 yr This guy worked "On The Waterfront" with Cleveland Stevedore and he's accusing others of being corrupt, selfish and obstructionist? OK. BTW, how's business at Cleveland Stevedore in recent years? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 19, 200915 yr He doesn't like the plan because it means that the Port will move and take out most of the E.55 marina. Instead of it being mentioned at the end of the letter, he should disclose it immediately. It is hard to take him seriously when he puts his own self interests above those of greater Cleveland.
August 19, 200915 yr He doesn't like the plan because it means that the Port will move and take out most of the E.55 marina. Instead of it being mentioned at the end of the letter, he should disclose it immediately. It is hard to take him seriously when he puts his own self interests above those of greater Cleveland. [/qu[/b]ote] BINGO!!
August 19, 200915 yr One "advantage" today's movers and shakers have over ones in the past generation is the fact that they are not burdened by "how things used to be." For lack of of a better term, lets call it the Feagler effect. The Feagler effect is the self defeating realization that any project or string of projects, anything new, will not bring back the vibrant city in which they grew up in. Why build a Rock Hall if it is not going to bring back Halle's dept. store? Or like this guy, why develop the lakefront if it is not going to bring the Flats back? People like this need to get over it and get out of the way
August 21, 200915 yr I'm hearing, in the plans discussed in today's PD, a lot about open parkland, greenery, access to the Lake and whatnot... All well and good, but I'd like to hear more about developing a built up environment with high density -- like, say, in and around Baltimore's Inner Harbor, the gift that keeps giving to that Cleveland-sized town... I hope leaders don't fall into the trap believing the current housing crunch will last forever, although it sometimes, with collapse of such projects as Flats East Bank, we've given up on developing high-density housing downtown.
August 21, 200915 yr If you look at the presentation (available at the bottom of page 14 of this thread), the Port Authority makes a couple of references to relatively dense mid-rise neighborhoods as models, including Old Town Alexandria and the harbor neighborhoods in Baltimore. The massings for the first phase also appear to be relatively dense, although how it is actually implemented is another question. I think the early attention to greenspace and access to the lake is partially shaped by the Port's desire to see something going up within the project footprint as soon as possible (within the next 3 to 5 years), and it's likely that that kind of greenspace planning is what they can start on now, rather than trying to line up tenants, etc. Plus, I'm sure having greenspace and water elements, etc. in place will make it a more desirable sell to prospective tenants as the project were to go forward.
August 21, 200915 yr I don't think it's been mentioned yet as a "best practice" on here, but I certainly hope the Port Authority will be looking to Hamburg's HafenCity as inspiration. The scope of this project is similarly mind-boggling, with what is likely to be multi-decade phasing (although they're a couple of decades ahead of us), so it seems an appropriate case study. Beyond that, from what little I saw of this neighborhood and the bordering neighborhood of Speicherstadt, this is one of the most breathtaking built environments I've ever seen. A photo from Speicherstadt and its converted warehouse buildings lying directly on canals off the harbor and a photo of the HafenCity development, in the context of the neighborhoods to the south.
August 21, 200915 yr I don't think it's been mentioned yet as a "best practice" on here, but I certainly hope the Port Authority will be looking to Hamburg's HafenCity as inspiration. The scope of this project is similarly mind-boggling, with what is likely to be multi-decade phasing (although they're a couple of decades ahead of us), so it seems an appropriate case study. Beyond that, from what little I saw of this neighborhood and the bordering neighborhood of Speicherstadt, this is one of the most breathtaking built environments I've ever seen. A photo from Speicherstadt and its converted warehouse buildings lying directly on canals off the harbor and a photo of the HafenCity development, in the context of the neighborhoods to the south. MTS approves.
August 21, 200915 yr That picture on the side of the building in the foreground is an image of the music hall/hotel they're building on top of it. Which I think is pretty awesome. http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/elbe-philharmonic/
August 21, 200915 yr Agree about Hafencity. I also don't understand why they haven't shown Borneo Sporenburg (http://www.west8.nl/projects/all/borneo_sporenburg/)in Amsterdam, which is all built on fill (besides being amazing urbanistically and architecturally) or New Islington in Manchester, England (http://www.newislington.co.uk/). I feel as if the team working on this do not believe that Clevelanders are able to relate to anything they haven't seen with their own eyes, which bothers me a lot. They need to be showing us what the potential is for this type of project with case studies such as the ones people are putting up on here instead of telling us its going to be downtown Chagrin Falls. Which of course, just seems like they're trying to pander to the exurban set. It seems as if we're going to get Crocker Park on the lake. Which would be quite unfortunate.
August 23, 200915 yr With a real river and a lakefront close at hand I don't see the point of putting in a fake "natural" creek. Well I suppose the reason (the point) is that the edges of both the 'real' river and 'real' lake have been industrialized and no longer reflect their natural form; nor our biophillic connection to it. however, we now possess the technology (a bit of an oxymoron i know) to construct natural ecosystems in the form of constructed wetlands, streams, etc.
September 14, 200915 yr At this summer's family reunion, I consulted with "Uncle Joe", who had built a successful container-ship and ocean-going barge business sending cargo from Seattle to Hawaii, Alaska, and to Asia. I asked him if he thought the Port Authority's plan to unload containers from ocean going ships at Canso, Nova Scotia and load them onto smaller Great Lakes container ships bound for Cleveland was a sound idea. Heretofore, Cleveland harbor has been used for bulk rock, occasional steel shipments, and not much else. The ice season has prevented use of our harbor for just-in-time shipments. Uncle Joe thought it was a good idea, nonetheless. So, my skepticism of this plan is relieved. I have a prediction that the ongoing melting of polar ice is going to make the Great Lakes a destination for Asian container cargo comparable with Long Beach and Chesapeake Bay. The Gulf of St. Lawrence is close to the Northwest Passage. Ports on the Great Lakes are right in the heartland of America. Dredging the harbor is pain. It would be good if the raw materials destined for the steel mill could be unloaded behind the breakwall and sent to the mill on special train. There are a few other users of the river harbor, though. Doubtlessly, the value of their land is that they have lake access. I don't know how to serve them if we quit dredging the river. That sedimentation problem in the Cuyahoga River is a geological function that started with the end of the last ice age. The river and all of its tributaries are still downcutting into the loose clay streambanks because Lake Erie has dropped by ~180 feet in the last few thousand years. The Cuyahoga River dropped so much that it cut back south and stole the tributary of the Tuscarawas River that had flowed from Geauga County through East Branch reservoir, Lake Rockwell and Cuyahoga Falls.
September 15, 200915 yr Geology nerd!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 18, 200915 yr I was going through some old files the other night and found this 1992 vision for the harbor. Its all here--the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (currently under construction--planned opening 1995); Great Waters Aquarium (planned opening 1998); Mather Museum (opened in 1991); and the Great Lakes Museum of Science, Environment, and Technology (planned opening 1996). Good ol' Muny Stadium is present as well.
September 23, 200915 yr North Coast Harbor pedestrian bridge proposals by Miguel Rosales are outstanding By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer August 30, 2009, 12:01AM http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2009/08/north_coast_harbor_pedestrian.html All of the proposals and images http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/lakefront/PDbridge/overview.html
September 23, 200915 yr ^ While that could probably be posted in either thread, it already has been posted, and discussed in the North Coast Harbor thread... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,10446.30.html
September 25, 200915 yr Here comes this giant stimulus package and we have no rail expansions ready to go, not even that rather obvious one that would run east from our present and future Lakefront Developments. We have no plan for a new Amtrak station on the lakefront despite the MM/CC and despite the 3-C momentum. That is inexcusable, absolutely inexcusable. The time for patience with local leadership has passed. What exactly IS the Federal Stimulus package doing for construction and development on anything in Cleveland? I've heard mention of the Flats east bank, but not much else on the loonnnnnng list that was submitted by Mayor Jackson.
September 30, 200915 yr there is a proposal to transform an area of the lakefront in Lorain (near the mouth of the Black river) into a Dude Ranch of sorts where visitors can experience outdoor sports like walleye fishing, canoeing, kayaking, bicycling, and horseback riding. Good idea or no? Me kinda likey. http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2009/09/29/news/mj1679211.txt#story_comments
September 30, 200915 yr Bank fishing is quite common from the piers in the parks in Cleveland. The Lorain idea sounds great. Is there a bike path there?
September 30, 200915 yr there is a proposal to transform an area of the lakefront in Lorain (near the mouth of the Black river) into a Dude Ranch of sorts where visitors can experience outdoor sports like walleye fishing, canoeing, kayaking, bicycling, and horseback riding. Dude Ranch sounds likes a salad dressing just for guys... Hey-o! Please don't ban me.
October 3, 200915 yr Dude Ranch near the mouth the Black River..................................................................................*rim shot*
October 5, 200915 yr Some potentially really bad news re: the Port and the Dike 14 Nature Preserve... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/10/port_authority_passes_on_grant.html
October 6, 200915 yr Some potentially really bad news re: the Port and the Dike 14 Nature Preserve... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/10/port_authority_passes_on_grant.html This is dissapointing and I don't really understand the logic from the port authority.
October 6, 200915 yr Some potentially really bad news re: the Port and the Dike 14 Nature Preserve... http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/10/port_authority_passes_on_grant.html Why is such bad news? The Dike 14 preservation group is not regarded as a group that has a balanced view on things. I'd hear the Port out on this one before rushing to judgment.
October 6, 200915 yr The Dike 14 preservation group is not regarded as a group that has a balanced view on things. And the Port is?
October 6, 200915 yr "It is more prudent to allow for the Dike 14 planning to mature along the time frames anticipated for the lakefront projects as a whole," wrote port attorney Joel Pentz in a letter to a group of environmental agencies working to rescue and preserve the area as a wildlife refuge. Bollocks. The Port Authority hates the Dike 14 preservation group and is slow walking this project to oblivion. The public has scant access to Lake Erie in Cuyahoga County. The closest access to this is Edgewater Park five miles west and Wildwood Marina on the Euclid border.
October 6, 200915 yr ^I've been present at closed-door meetings of the Dike 14 group. It is not a group that I want handling the future of Dike 14. That's all I can say.
October 6, 200915 yr "It is more prudent to allow for the Dike 14 planning to mature along the time frames anticipated for the lakefront projects as a whole," wrote port attorney Joel Pentz in a letter to a group of environmental agencies working to rescue and preserve the area as a wildlife refuge. Bollocks. The Port Authority hates the Dike 14 preservation group and is slow walking this project to oblivion. The public has scant access to Lake Erie in Cuyahoga County. The closest access to this is Edgewater Park five miles west and Wildwood Marina on the Euclid border. Well, knowing that the Lakefront Plan will take 20 years to fully realize, it may be a while before we actually see Dike 14 as a nature preserve. Just as a refresher, here is what the Dike is to become. This is from the Cleveland Planning Commission's website...
October 6, 200915 yr I have to call bullsh-t on the Port saying that they're concerned about the proper timing and execution of the Lakefront Plan. They've shown that they are more than happy to go ahead and do their own thing, even it it is greatly at odds with the results of the Lakefront Plan.
October 6, 200915 yr ^That's not what the Dike 14 preservationists are considering. Would you be able to elaborate, if possible, regarding what you know?
October 6, 200915 yr ^I've been present at closed-door meetings of the Dike 14 group. It is not a group that I want handling the future of Dike 14. That's all I can say. From what I understand, there are actually two groups at work on Dike 14. One group (more closely affiliated with CMNH, Earth Day Coalition, etc.) seems to be more research and education oriented, and I think they were the ones working directly with the Port. The other group (with a more citizen-led emphasis) might be the group that you are talking about, and they are more vehement about keeping the Preserve off limits. (Caveat: I don't work directly with either group, although I know several folks who are working on this, so my recollection may be faulty.)
October 6, 200915 yr The second group you describe, Avogadro, wishes to keep Dike14 undeveloped and as a place to host migratory birds. A good accomodation would be to close off "some" areas from the public and have only viewing stands. Else, they could close the area seasonally. A nod to X wrt timing and execution: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3638.msg432005.html#msg432005
October 6, 200915 yr Port could reap $1 billion from redeveloping current site, consultant says By JAY MILLER 3:04 pm, October 6, 2009 http://crainscleveland.com/article/20091006/FREE/910069976
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