^ And yes, I agree with you KJP.  Sububan-minded people (and I use minded because I'm from the burbs, but don't think like the burbs) will think this is what downtown should look like.  The stadium development combined with FEB are really going to change the image of Cleveland and transform it from a sterotypical midwestern town with tree-lined Avenues, to one turing the corner and re-inventing itself.  Not much we can do.  Cleveland has been sucessful using it's existing buliding stock in the WHD, E4th and Euclid, however these are simply desireabe areas of our city, with respect to location, that had nothing useful to work with. 

And that's cool. I know that some folks would never consider moving to downtown without a Crocker Park-On-The-Lake available to them. I'll take 'em and their taxes.

Hi Guys, I don't mean to put down the suburbs or Crocker Park (which is perfect for Westlake), but just because something is new doesn't mean it has to look like Crocker Park. There's a lot of cool water/lake front development going on around the world that is just amazing. I was really just saying I don't think the style of architecture that works in Crocker Park would work on our lakefront. But I have a feeling that this is where it is headed.

 

I included a picture of a proposed plan for some lakefront development in Chicago. Not suburban at all, and very cool. It can be done.

 

transportdata ‏@transportdata  44m

Sprawling gated communities are terrible, but large towers are gated comm'tys too -often worse, given impact on surrounding downtowns #CNU22

 

Lloyd Alter ‏@lloydalter  4m

580 units 0 car parking spaces 580 bike spaces 65 storeys. That's amazing pic.twitter.com/99WMMiMzuk [Toronto]

 

Some like grit and some like glitz.  Right now we've got the grit and we're building the glitz more and more.  You guys are right that suburbanites like to see new and shiny to feel like a city is on the move, so it will be good to have new riverfront and lakefront development that will give them that.  Downtown should have something that appeals to everyone, and I feel we're getting there.

transportdata ‏@transportdata  44m

Sprawling gated communities are terrible, but large towers are gated comm'tys too -often worse, given impact on surrounding downtowns #CNU22

 

 

Sorry, buy this is the dumbest quote ever.  What are we supposed to do?  Throw open our front doors so people can wander around our hallways?  It's the same as saying a house is a mini gated community because the public can't go wondering down your bedroom hall and go knocking on your kid's door. It's not a gated community, it's a building.

Sorry, buy this is the dumbest quote ever.  What are we supposed to do?  Throw open our front doors so people can wander around our hallways?  It's the same as saying a house is a mini gated community because the public can't go wondering down your bedroom hall and go knocking on your kid's door. It's not a gated community, it's a building.

 

Take a moment to notice the next tweet/picture in my prior message. Here's my word picture of it: a multi-story pedestal containing retail, banking, restaurants, cafes or other publicly usable uses. What exists above the pedestal is not openly accessible, but the lower floors most certainly are.

 

Unfortunately, many folks can't visualize publicly accessible, mixed-use structures. Its one of the reasons why so many American cities have dead sidewalks even though there tens of thousands of people living and working in the upper floors.

^Isn't the project described in the second tweet/picture a "large tower" so, according to the first tweet, something bad? 

 

I get that we may not want to line our waterfront with towers because of concerns over shadows, wind, and view corridors from downtown, but tween the FAA flight cone for Burke and our real estate market, I don't really see much of a risk.

Yep, it's a tower, but not all mixed used buildings are towers. A mixed-use building the height of First Energy Stadium should be plenty tall enough. Most mixed use buildings in Europe are far smaller than that, yet contribute far more to street life that their American, single-use (er, gated community) counterparts.

^I love how Toronto keeps the historic buildings facade. When walking on the sidewalk it feels like you are walking in a human scale block with brick buildings and storefronts everywhere. And then you look up and see a 65 storey building above it!

 

 

 

 

Edit:

 

KJP you'd probably like Aura, the tallest residential building in Toronto (currently underconstruction). It has smaller retailers on the ground floor, a Bed Bath and Beyond on the second floor, and a Marshalls on the third! (Can't put into words how crucial it is to not have big box stores on the ground floor) Above that is an additional 75 floors of residential. It also connects to a subway station. It was built on a parking lot (last lot on yonge street) and the sidewalks were widened and improved for an increase in pedestrians.

Yep, I am with KJP on this one. Delighted to see the development happening, but at the same time a tad concerned it ends up as Crocker Park-on-the-Lake.

 

Always a valid concern with any new development. Even the Arena District in C-bus with it's classic architecture feels less than authentic.

 

Of course new neighborhoods don't have to be sterile. [i mean look what Paul has posted while i'm typing this!]

 

KJP you'd probably like Aura, the tallest residential building in Toronto (currently underconstruction). It has smaller retailers on the ground floor, a Bed Bath and Beyond on the second floor, and a Marshalls on the third! (Can't put into words how crucial it is to not have big box stores on the ground floor) Above that is an additional 75 floors of residential. It also connects to a subway station. It was built on a parking lot (last lot on yonge street) and the sidewalks were widened and improved for an increase in pedestrians.

 

Sounds like the Miracle Mile in Chicago.

 

Hell, I'd be happy with the mixed use I saw in Dublin (Ireland, not Ohio!) last week....

 

 

 

And that's cool. I know that some folks would never consider moving to downtown without a Crocker Park-On-The-Lake available to them. I'll take 'em and their taxes.

 

Amen. I have a consistent, guiding philosophy. I believe that anything that you can get in the suburbs you should be able to get in the city. Cleveland is geographically big enough to offer something for everyone (or most people). If a Crocker Park on the lake is what it'll take to get some people here, fine with me. I've articulated here and elsewhere my belief that the Flats East Bank project, for example,  appears to be an explicit attempt to create an urban answer to Crocker Park

And that's cool. I know that some folks would never consider moving to downtown without a Crocker Park-On-The-Lake available to them. I'll take 'em and their taxes.

 

Amen. I have a consistent, guiding philosophy. I believe that anything that you can get in the suburbs you should be able to get in the city. Cleveland is geographically big enough to offer something for everyone (or most people). If a Crocker Park on the lake is what it'll take to get some people here, fine with me. I've articulated here and elsewhere my belief that the Flats East Bank project, for example,  appears to be an explicit attempt to create an urban answer to Crocker Park

 

Crocker Park on the lake would be terrible. Now, a 2014 recreation of Lakewood's Gold Coast on the lake would be a much better option.

 

And I don't want to hear about Burke's flight path. We all know.

Please no Gold Coast

And that's cool. I know that some folks would never consider moving to downtown without a Crocker Park-On-The-Lake available to them. I'll take 'em and their taxes.

 

Amen. I have a consistent, guiding philosophy. I believe that anything that you can get in the suburbs you should be able to get in the city. Cleveland is geographically big enough to offer something for everyone (or most people). If a Crocker Park on the lake is what it'll take to get some people here, fine with me. I've articulated here and elsewhere my belief that the Flats East Bank project, for example,  appears to be an explicit attempt to create an urban answer to Crocker Park

 

I third that notion. If this becomes Crocker Park 2.0, I probably will never in a million years live there. But that's okay. We're a city with 3,000 acres of vacant land and still are seeing population decline ... We've got the room to diversify options to be suiting a much larger diversity of lifestyle backgrounds and preferences. The widely celebrated Baltimore Inner Harbor and Power and Light District in Kansas City both read plastic as hell to me, but a lot of people clearly seem to love both. So long as we end up with something relatively mixed-use, with a pedestrian orientation and public access to the lakefront, along with even more downtown residents, I'll be pretty ecstatic :D I think the more important thing for those of us who don't respond to that kind of aesthetic is to fight to make sure that such flashy, new projects don't start to consume our community narrative and brand ... That we keep a strong focus, locally and nationally, on places like Tremont or Ohio City or Waterloo or Little Italy as what truly makes Cleveland tick.

 

 

Please no Gold Coast

 

Clarification: Gold Coast DENSITY...not the architecture.

So long as we end up with something relatively mixed-use, with a pedestrian orientation and public access to the lakefront...

 

A thousand times this ^

 

We have to better tie together the existing assets. I'm interested in seeing how the developers are going to work with Browns/Rock Hall/Science Center to better make some sense out of connecting these integral parts.

Here's another article from an industry publication.....

 

June 11, 2014

Q&A with Bellwether, Cumberland Execs on $700M Cleveland Lakefront Project

By Adrian Maties, Associate Editor

 

In recent years, numerous developments, worth hundreds of millions of dollars, have helped reinvent Cleveland and boost local economy. Now, a new project will change the city’s lakefront. At a cost of $700 million, it is one of the largest to ever be developed in Cleveland.

 

At the start of June, Cleveland City Council approved plans to develop more than 20 acres of property close to the central business district. The project calls for the construction of more than 2.2 million square feet, including more than 1,000 apartments, 800 parking spaces, 80,000 square feet of office space, 60,000 square feet of retail space, a boutique-branded hotel and a charter school serving downtown Cleveland residents. The development team consists of Cumberland Development, Trammell Crow Co. and Bellwether Enterprise Real Estate Capital L.L.C.

 

Ross Halloran, senior vice president of Bellwether, and Dick Pace, president of Cumberland Development, have agreed to answer some of CPE’s questions and tell us more about this impressive project.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cpexecutive.com/regions/mid-atlantic/qa-with-bellwether-cumberland-executives-on-cleveland-lakefront-project/1004098236.html

 

^ Is the Mather Maritime Museum being moved somewhere else, or did they simply not include it in the rendering?

Trail and greenway planners envision a greener, healthier, more connected future for Cuyahoga County (slideshow)

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

on June 13, 2014 at 6:20 AM, updated June 13, 2014 at 6:24 AM

 

Trails and greenways may once have seemed like frills in Northeast Ohio.

 

But city planners, activists and landscape architects argued Thursday at the all-day Greater Cleveland Trails & Greenway Conference in Mayfield Village that adding to the growing system of green pathways in Cuyahoga and neighboring counties is essential to the region's future.

 

In presentations during the conference and in hallway conversations at the Hilton Garden Inn off Beta Drive, planners, landscape architects, elected officials and public health experts shared visions for the East Side Greenway, a 60-mile network of current and future trails that would link Cleveland to its eastern suburbs, the Metroparks and Lake Erie.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/06/cuyahoga_county_trail_and_gree.html

Well, it's a start, but two boats docked at the marina yesterday. There's still scaffolding there, so I am assuming there's no official opening just yet. But great to see actual boats docked in the harbor. One small step, etc. ........

 

 

 

I can't imagine how early you will have to get there for the Browns pre-season and early season games.

I can't imagine how early you will have to get there for the Browns pre-season and early season games.

 

you're right...  tailgating on the water from the flats to the lakefront...  that will be awesome...

transportdata ‏@transportdata  44m

Sprawling gated communities are terrible, but large towers are gated comm'tys too -often worse, given impact on surrounding downtowns #CNU22

 

Lloyd Alter ‏@lloydalter  4m

580 units 0 car parking spaces 580 bike spaces 65 storeys. That's amazing pic.twitter.com/99WMMiMzuk [Toronto]

 

I just walked by this a few days ago...so many amazing things happening in Toronto.

^Is this the Toronto Lakefront Development News thread?

It is 7:18pm Tuesday evening. I am at our cottage on Lake Erie. Our cottage is 30 or 50 feet from the water.  15 minutes ago we had our windows open and were sitting on our deck.  Now the wind is so strong our chairs have blown off our deck and the tables are over turned. The winds have to be 40+. Of course we have closed our windows and moved inside.  It is an incredible storm and at times kind of frightening.  This is life on the Lake.  We continually talk about developing the lake front and compare with cities like Chicago and Toronto, but we are the only major city with a northern unobstructed shoreline in America (the world?).  If we were a restaurant, we would have to pay for everyone meals and hope they come back again.  There is a reason that very few restaurants are located on the Lake Erie shore line.  We should look to see what other cities with unobstructed northern shorelines have done.

Now there is little wind and a drizzle of rain. Life on the Lake is not for everyone. Most people visit a beach when the weather is nice and it is like visiting a beach on the ocean down south.  Lake Erie is different and we need to appreciate and enjoy the differences, but we have to understand the Lake to make wise decisions regarding lakefront development.

It is 7:18pm Tuesday evening. I am at our cottage on Lake Erie. Our cottage is 30 or 50 feet from the water.  15 minutes ago we had our windows open and were sitting on our deck.  Now the wind is so strong our chairs have blown off our deck and the tables are over turned. The winds have to be 40+. Of course we have closed our windows and moved inside.  It is an incredible storm and at times kind of frightening.  This is life on the Lake.  We continually talk about developing the lake front and compare with cities like Chicago and Toronto, but we are the only major city with a northern unobstructed shoreline in America (the world?).  If we were a restaurant, we would have to pay for everyone meals and hope they come back again.  There is a reason that very few restaurants are located on the Lake Erie shore line.  We should look to see what other cities with unobstructed northern shorelines have done.

 

....and no pictures???  You people know "visuals" are very important!  :P

^ Good perspective.  Now that I think about it, there are very few American cities with unobstructed northern shorelines.  This is a unique issue.

It is 7:18pm Tuesday evening. I am at our cottage on Lake Erie. Our cottage is 30 or 50 feet from the water.  15 minutes ago we had our windows open and were sitting on our deck.  Now the wind is so strong our chairs have blown off our deck and the tables are over turned. The winds have to be 40+. Of course we have closed our windows and moved inside.  It is an incredible storm and at times kind of frightening.  This is life on the Lake.  We continually talk about developing the lake front and compare with cities like Chicago and Toronto, but we are the only major city with a northern unobstructed shoreline in America (the world?).  If we were a restaurant, we would have to pay for everyone meals and hope they come back again.  There is a reason that very few restaurants are located on the Lake Erie shore line.  We should look to see what other cities with unobstructed northern shorelines have done.

 

No, you wouldn't pay for everyone's meals, but you would move them inside as quick as possible.  Most restaurants I've worked at keep an area that they don't seat when the patio is open for a variety of reasons, one is that it is possible to move people inside when the wind kicks up.

 

edit- I have to ask, except for vague griping about the weather, what do you want?  Not develop the lakefront?  Throw up our hands, "It's north facing, we can't do anything.  Sometimes the weather will be bad."

^ Good perspective.  Now that I think about it, there are very few American cities with unobstructed northern shorelines.  This is a unique issue.

 

Right. And because of the northern orientation we've got to be careful about building heights along the water. The scale of development that works in some other coastal cities could completely block out the sun along the shoreline here.

Just one minor note. There is a breakwater that runs parallel the entire length of North Coast Harbor. So where the planned development would be the water never gets bad, even when the weather is really nasty.  That's why you can rent jet skis at the mouth  of the Cuyahoga and cruise all along the lakefront. Setting up restaurants along this length of the lakefront wouldn't be a problem at all. Other than it can get windy, but I'd say that in this location that's rarely a significant issue.

 

North Coast Harbor bridge plans are beautiful but cost rises to $8M, thanks to lengthy review of plans

 

The latest plans for a new lakefront drawbridge at North Coast Harbor are cause for both delight and dismay.

 

The delight is that the design, scheduled for discussion Thursday before the city's Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee and Friday before the City Planning Commission, is excellent, and very much worth building.

 

Architect Miguel Rosales of Boston, who led the design in partnership with engineers from the Cleveland office of CDM Smith and the New York office of Schlaich Bergermann, has conceived a drawbridge consisting of a pair of elegantly slender, L-shaped jackknife spans.

 

The bridge will link Voinovich Park at the north end of East Ninth Street to the finger pier just north of the Great Lakes Science Center. It will create an inviting pedestrian loop around the seven-acre harbor and its new marina, and could become a powerful, postcard-worthy attraction on the city's chronically underused lakefront.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/06/north_coast_harbor_bridge_plan.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

 

 

I like it. I'll like it better if it actually happens

Kind of concerned about the " below-grade electrical motors to wind and unwind steel ropes to raise and lower the spans" though. Just sounds like a future maintenance nightmare.

So I have some mouth-watering news about this project...Spoke with my buddy who works at Great Lakes Brewing. He said that management announced to them that they are in talks with Cumberland to locate a brew pub in a retail space right on the lakefront. Apparently, leasing commitments are going very well because all of the lakefront spaces are completely leased and GL is competing with someone else for the last remaining space facing the lake. He said that Cumberland approached GL with the idea. Kudos to them for reaching out to local companies!

So I have some mouth-watering news about this project...Spoke with my buddy who works at Great Lakes Brewing. He said that management announced to them that they are in talks with Cumberland to locate a brew pub in a retail space right on the lakefront. Apparently, leasing commitments are going very well because all of the lakefront spaces are completely leased and GL is competing with someone else for the last remaining space facing the lake. He said that Cumberland approached GL with the idea. Kudos to them for reaching out to local companies!

That is fantastic news?  I would love to hear which other tenants have committed to the project. 

Unfortunately, he did not know who the other prospective tenants were. All he said was that available space is limited. At least for the spots that will be facing the lakefront.

I like this bridge design better than the original (pictured in the PD article) which had a single span. It was rejected because when it was up, it infringed on the runway zone of BKL.

It is 7:18pm Tuesday evening. I am at our cottage on Lake Erie. Our cottage is 30 or 50 feet from the water.  15 minutes ago we had our windows open and were sitting on our deck.  Now the wind is so strong our chairs have blown off our deck and the tables are over turned. The winds have to be 40+. Of course we have closed our windows and moved inside.  It is an incredible storm and at times kind of frightening.  This is life on the Lake.  We continually talk about developing the lake front and compare with cities like Chicago and Toronto, but we are the only major city with a northern unobstructed shoreline in America (the world?).  If we were a restaurant, we would have to pay for everyone meals and hope they come back again.  There is a reason that very few restaurants are located on the Lake Erie shore line.  We should look to see what other cities with unobstructed northern shorelines have done.

I spend alot of time on the lake, and the average day is not that windy.  We had a huge squall line move through last night.  Windy or not, 6 months out of the year, Clevelanders are not expecting to sit on patio anyhow, even if they're in Parma.  I really see this as a non issue. 

So I have some mouth-watering news about this project...Spoke with my buddy who works at Great Lakes Brewing. He said that management announced to them that they are in talks with Cumberland to locate a brew pub in a retail space right on the lakefront. Apparently, leasing commitments are going very well because all of the lakefront spaces are completely leased and GL is competing with someone else for the last remaining space facing the lake. He said that Cumberland approached GL with the idea. Kudos to them for reaching out to local companies!

That is fantastic news?  I would love to hear which other tenants have committed to the project. 

 

I love inside information.

 

This is great and very unexpected news.  I was still having my doubts about all this moving forward any time soon but this bit of news, if true, has made a believer of me.  OK Michelle, go attack and let us know details.

First time I've heard an estimate on a groundbreaking for the first phase -- "early 2015"

 

In Cleveland, Developer Puts Down Stakes by the Lake

$700 Million Project on Lake Erie Still Needs Financing

By CHELSEY DULANEY

July 8, 2014 7:28 p.m. ET

 

Cleveland's longtime dream of developing its Lake Erie waterfront took a step forward last month when its City Council approved plans for a $700 million development.

 

The big question now is whether the developer can secure construction financing to build what would be one of the downtown area's first ground-up residential developments in three decades.

 

If the developer—a venture of Trammell Crow Co. of Dallas and Cumberland Development, LLC of Cleveland—can pull it off, it would be an important sign that lenders are getting more willing to take risks on construction projects.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/in-cleveland-developer-puts-down-stakes-by-the-lake-1404862130

The development would be built over three phases, adding more than 1,000 apartments, 800 parking spots and office and retail space to Cleveland's central business district.

 

I don't understand why a rail component is not seriously being considered?  This is in the heart of the city parking spots is the last thing this area needs! I just throw my hands up!

 

I don't understand why a rail component is not seriously being considered?  This is in the heart of the city parking spots is the last thing this area needs! I just throw my hands up!

 

They already have rail within 2,000 feet. And the 800 parking spaces is probably to win financing from bankers who believe the future is still solely wedded to the almighty car.

This is a step in the right direction though. Normally it would be 1300 spaces. Plus, if that's parking for the 1,000 units, office buildings, school and retail, that's not bad at all.

There are two things which should be a requirement for this project to move forward.

 

First, it should be designed in such a way that all pedestrians have a direct/easy/shortest walk possible in order to use the existing RTA Water Front line. This would encourage public transportation use.

 

Second, the project should also be designed with bicycle use in mind. Yes, I know the Lakefront can be brutal in the winter with the winds/snow off Lake Erie. But, there is still more then enough decent weather for bicycle use.

 

 

This couldn't possibly be surface parking, could it?

If the parking is reduced and built into buildings, example the 3 through 5 floors of a building with residential above, I would be OK.  Its right by the WFL.  reroute and drop the WFL underground to connect directly to buildings.  Do this right!

If the parking is reduced and built into buildings, example the 3 through 5 floors of a building with residential above, I would be OK.  Its right by the WFL.  reroute and drop the WFL underground to connect directly to buildings.  Do this right!

 

^ That!!!!

If the parking is reduced and built into buildings, example the 3 through 5 floors of a building with residential above, I would be OK.  Its right by the WFL.  reroute and drop the WFL underground to connect directly to buildings.  Do this right!

 

I love it. You find a way to pay for it.

 

This couldn't possibly be surface parking, could it?

 

Their conceptual plans don't show it. But then again, those are just conceptual. And since they will build this in phases, surface parking will continue to exist (but steadily diminish) to the west.