If the parking is reduced and built into buildings, example the 3 through 5 floors of a building with residential above, I would be OK.  Its right by the WFL.  reroute and drop the WFL underground to connect directly to buildings.  Do this right!

 

I love it. You find a way to pay for it.

 

This couldn't possibly be surface parking, could it?

 

Their conceptual plans don't show it. But then again, those are just conceptual. And since they will build this in phases, surface parking will continue to exist (but steadily diminish) to the west.

 

Exactly.  I wonder instead of putting the WFL, in it's current place can they reroute it down the main street?  Make it at grade?  But building some transportation into this development!

I noticed in the WSJ article that there was a real small reference to the site being located atop a former landfill.  I was unaware of that, and if so, I presume it is per-CERCLA waste.  My assumption is that there is a huge hangup on financing a development of this size without transferring the liability of pollution risk to someone.  Not that it can't be done, but I would have to imagine that is something that playing havoc with the financing. 

I noticed in the WSJ article that there was a real small reference to the site being located atop a former landfill.  I was unaware of that, and if so, I presume it is per-CERCLA waste.  My assumption is that there is a huge hangup on financing a development of this size without transferring the liability of pollution risk to someone.  Not that it can't be done, but I would have to imagine that is something that playing havoc with the financing. 

 

Good point re: liability. But since the Science Center and Rock Hall are there I'm supposing that it's not that great a hurdle.

I noticed in the WSJ article that there was a real small reference to the site being located atop a former landfill.  I was unaware of that, and if so, I presume it is per-CERCLA waste.  My assumption is that there is a huge hangup on financing a development of this size without transferring the liability of pollution risk to someone.  Not that it can't be done, but I would have to imagine that is something that playing havoc with the financing. 

 

Good point re: liability. But since the Science Center and Rock Hall are there I'm supposing that it's not that great a hurdle.

The hurdle is much greater when the proposed development is residential, and to a degree, institutional (especially schools).  Residential is the achilles.  Again, this can be handled.  It may take some time in negotiations, and definately some money. 

I noticed in the WSJ article that there was a real small reference to the site being located atop a former landfill.  I was unaware of that, and if so, I presume it is per-CERCLA waste.  My assumption is that there is a huge hangup on financing a development of this size without transferring the liability of pollution risk to someone.  Not that it can't be done, but I would have to imagine that is something that playing havoc with the financing. 

 

Almost all of the land that lies at lake level downtown is dirt that was excavated during the huge building boom of the 1910-1920s (including the Terminal Tower complex.)  The cliff where City Hall etc. sits overlooking the lake is actually Cleveland's natural shoreline.

Ah, that would explain this picture from 1831, and also why we have lighthouse steps on the top of W 9th where it slopes down to the flats .......

 

^Great picture

Guys, really? Where did we miss not educating our youth that everything north of the lakefront tracks is landfill?? In fact, the lakefront tracks were built on a manmade "shelf" along the lake shore, seen at bottom.....

 

Today:

 

In 1877:

 

Photo from 1890s showing an icy Lake Erie shore downtown. That's the old Lakeside Hospital above the train. The hospital was at the foot of Erie Street (East 9th) until the 1950s when it was demolished for the Cleveland Press building. The Press was demolished in the 1980s for the North Point office complex.

If the parking is reduced and built into buildings, example the 3 through 5 floors of a building with residential above, I would be OK.  Its right by the WFL.  reroute and drop the WFL underground to connect directly to buildings.  Do this right!

 

I love it. You find a way to pay for it.

 

This couldn't possibly be surface parking, could it?

 

Their conceptual plans don't show it. But then again, those are just conceptual. And since they will build this in phases, surface parking will continue to exist (but steadily diminish) to the west.

 

Exactly.  I wonder instead of putting the WFL, in it's current place can they reroute it down the main street?  Make it at grade?  But building some transportation into this development!

 

That's a great idea.

 

I don't understand why a rail component is not seriously being considered?  This is in the heart of the city parking spots is the last thing this area needs! I just throw my hands up!

 

They already have rail within 2,000 feet. And the 800 parking spaces is probably to win financing from bankers who believe the future is still solely wedded to the almighty car.

 

Well you know, bankers are very smart people.  They put together complex things that see into the future for big wins in all areas of finance and commerce.  Like default credit swaps.  ;)

Guys, while I love all your input, I hate those quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes... It's difficult to figure who's saying what without scrolling back, sometimes more than one page... Maybe try going with the most recent quote...  :wink:

Guys, while I love all your input, I hate those quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes... It's difficult to figure who's saying what without scrolling back, sometimes more than one page... Maybe try going with the most recent quote...  :wink:

How is it difficult?  Honestly, I think the quotes help you know how responses were threaded.

The lack of any mention of the Skylift in connection with this Lakefront news has me wondering.

^really...did you really think that was in anyway a viable thing and not just something for people to blab about on boards like this.

^really...did you really think that was in anyway a viable thing and not just something for people to blab about on boards like this.

 

Not sure. Who could say? 

The lack of any mention of the Skylift in connection with this Lakefront news has me wondering.

 

Pulleeeze... don't talk it up!

The lack of any mention of the Skylift in connection with this Lakefront news has me wondering.

 

Pulleeeze... don't talk it up!

I agree I think the lift is ridiculous.

How is it difficult?  Honestly, I think the quotes help you know how responses were threaded.

 

It may not be difficult for you, but it's difficult for other people -- including me too.

How is it difficult?  Honestly, I think the quotes help you know how responses were threaded.

 

It may not be difficult for you, but it's difficult for other people -- including me too.

 

Ok, but I'm asking how?  The reason I ask is possibly there can be an adjustment in the forum settings?

^really...did you really think that was in anyway a viable thing and not just something for people to blab about on boards like this.

 

yet I, remember the frenzy About it from many people here.

 

 

If anyone wanted to see what a Relocated waterfront line would look like check out this thread.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2768.msg704084#msg704084

 

1/8 mile buffer current route

 

1/8 mile buffer Waterfront streetcar.

 

there is an Access issue with the Waterfront and the waterfront line.

1/8 mile?  What, does everybody have broken legs now?  1/4 mile (5 minute walk) is the old standard for "walkability".

 

I agree I think the lift is ridiculous.

 

MTS all you have to say is "it's not gonna happen." And you know what - it'll happen!

 

I agree I think the lift is ridiculous.

 

MTS all you have to say is "it's not gonna happen." And you know what - it'll happen!

This is certain to be built with all the bells and whistles!  I'll even have my own private car.

1/8 mile?  What, does everybody have broken legs now?  1/4 mile (5 minute walk) is the old standard for "walkability".

 

To do a traditional 1/4 mile radius on a map, from the waterfront line would make it a appear that there is a great access to the lakefront. when in reality, there are many negative environments between where people want to go and the current line.

 

The trench, the freeway, the hill, and the walking environment.

 

First: the lakefront is over a 1/4 mile from the stations

second: for tourists the service isn't visible and some believe is in an awkward location.

Third: where the development is taking place Transit is a 1/2 mile walk.

Fouth: being connected to Tower city isn't the best thing for residents or tourists. our activity centers are spread round our downtown. to take a 8 min train ride only to have another 10 min walk to reach other destinations.

 

My idea explained here

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2768.msg704084#msg704084

 

would take the WFL out of the Trench and put it where the people are, on the street. 

 

At the southern end of the route I would extend it over the bridge as streetcar, through the Scranton peninsula (opening it up to TOD), and up Columbus road to the West Side Market. where riders could transfer to other services or walk around Ohio city, duck island and even over to Tremont.

 

for the residents on the lakefront they would have direct access to the west side market, and all the development potential of TOD on the Scranton  peninsula.

 

in essence this services the primary market for the "Skylift"

 

 

Is it really worth investing millions of dollars to relocate an existing rail line that is already a 1/4 mile - 1/2 mile away from the destinations? I think thats an acceptable distance. There obviously needs to be better connectivity to the WFL, but I feel like advocating for complete relocation is a waste of energy.

Yes.

 

If it reduces demand for parking, and can move more people on transit it is most definitely worth it.

 

 

The cost would be in the range of 50-65million to do, this can be paid for with TIF and TID that can capture the value of the development being built on the lakefront.

^Yes I definitely agree with this.  I've always that could be the route. I think to create the activity and the density along the new lakefront development this would make a huge difference.  With this being an improvement to an existing line would it be eligible for any New Start funds? Also could it be done for less money. Wasn't the cost of the WFL about 60 m for the whole thing. I know it was a different time.

^Yes I definitely agree with this.  I've always that could be the route. I think to create the activity and the density along the new lakefront development this would make a huge difference.  With this being an improvement to an existing line would it be eligible for any New Start funds? Also could it be done for less money. Wasn't the cost of the WFL about 60 m for the whole thing. I know it was a different time.

 

It would be small starts.

 

the original line cost 66 million

 

 

 

An extension to the north (1.2 mile would replace ~1 mile of the existing line) would cost between 40 and 60 million for a streetcar extension, depending if you added dedicated lanes and island stations or if you used street appropriate rolling stock.

 

A 1.5 mile extension through Scranton and on to Ohio city would run between 60 and 80 million, depending on how much the bridge will cost to rehabilitate and other mitigation factors on the Scranton penisula

the lakefrnt weather may justify the closer stations

FreshWaterCLE ‏@FreshWaterCLE  4m

cle's first shipping container-based eatery to debut at north coast harbor

 

 

Cle's first shipping container-based eatery to debut at north coast harbor

FRIDAY, JULY 18, 2014

LEE CHILCOTE

 

Remember the skate park built for the Dew Games held at North Coast Harbor in 2008? Well, it's been dismantled, but the concrete slab remains, surrounded by a metal-flame fence. Very soon the space will be home to the city's first shipping container-based restaurant, Blazing Bistro, which is scheduled to open in late July, adding to the amenities on downtown's lakefront.

 

"We've recognized for a while that one of the missing amenities on the lakefront is a gathering place for people while they're at the Rock Hall etc.," says Michael Deemer, Vice President of Business Development and Legal Services at Downtown Cleveland Alliance. "We worked with the city and with Lutheran Metropolitan Ministries to build off the success of Cleveland's food truck renaissance."

 

Blazing Bistro will take up residence in a recycled shipping container repurposed by Cleveland Customer Trucks. Lutheran Metropolitan Ministries (LMM), which operates the successful Manna food truck and employs formerly incarcerated and homeless individuals, was awarded the contract after responding to an RFP from the city.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/blazingbistro071814.aspx

FreshWaterCLE ‏@FreshWaterCLE  4m

cle's first shipping container-based eatery to debut at north coast harbor

 

 

Cle's first shipping container-based eatery to debut at north coast harbor

FRIDAY, JULY 18, 2014

LEE CHILCOTE

 

Remember the skate park built for the Dew Games held at North Coast Harbor in 2008? Well, it's been dismantled, but the concrete slab remains, surrounded by a metal-flame fence. Very soon the space will be home to the city's first shipping container-based restaurant, Blazing Bistro, which is scheduled to open in late July, adding to the amenities on downtown's lakefront.

 

"We've recognized for a while that one of the missing amenities on the lakefront is a gathering place for people while they're at the Rock Hall etc.," says Michael Deemer, Vice President of Business Development and Legal Services at Downtown Cleveland Alliance. "We worked with the city and with Lutheran Metropolitan Ministries to build off the success of Cleveland's food truck renaissance."

 

Blazing Bistro will take up residence in a recycled shipping container repurposed by Cleveland Customer Trucks. Lutheran Metropolitan Ministries (LMM), which operates the successful Manna food truck and employs formerly incarcerated and homeless individuals, was awarded the contract after responding to an RFP from the city.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/blazingbistro071814.aspx

I like it, it is different from what Cleveland usually does, and is also a quick fix in giving more people a reason to go to the lakefront to enjoy it.

 

EDIT: Since they said it can be moved around downtown, I'm picturing something such as this?

 

 

I like it, it is different from what Cleveland usually does, and is also a quick fix in giving more people a reason to go to the lakefront to enjoy it.

 

Correct. For the time being there's still a ton of space with a whole lotta nothing.

I'll quibble with the "quick" part.  It shouldn't have taken 3+ years to get something like this done.

An RFP has been released for the design of the bridge that would connect the mall and the lakefromt.  Unclear at this point if a parking garage will be involved in the design. I searched and searched for the RFP, it might not be posted yet...idk

 

Steve Litt's article today.

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/07/cleveland_cuyahoga_county_and.html#incart_river

The county, which is managing the project, this week released a Request for Qualifications to elicit proposals from design teams interested in the $25 million project. The deadline for responses is Aug 1. According to the document, the partners hope to have a preliminary design for the walkway bridge by Feb. 13, 2015. The goal is to finish construction by the spring of 2016, in time for the anticipated Republican National Convention in Cleveland.

A design-build team for the bridge will be chosen by June 2015, according to the RFQ for the bridge design team. The initial design team is to carry the concept to 30 percent completion, and then stay on to review and approve final designs created by the design-build team, according to the RFQ document.

If they want iconic, Frank Gehry comes to mind for me.

 

EDIT: After reading up on the BP pedestrian bridge in Chicago and the challenges in faces in the winter has me reconsidering that. It is a beautiful, eye catching bridge though without a doubt.

I hope that this walkway not only contains future provisions for the parking deck, but also has removable walls above the tracks and Amtrak site to add a transportation center that has been dubbed the Lakefront Multimodal Transportation Center or the North Coast Transportation Center at various times in the past. Why build such a center? If you take the fast-growing annual boardings at the Amtrak station (50K) and Waterfront Line (300K), then add Greyhound (250K), Megabus (180K) and make the center a stop on downtown routings for Laketran (185K), Akron Metro RTA (105K), Stark Area RTA (10K+) and Portage Area RTA (5K+), you've got a robust transportation center with 1 million boardings per year!

 

That doesn't include increased transfers created by having improved connectivity between transportation modes. Even so, 1 million boardings are more than the 800,000 annual enplanements at Akron-Canton Regional Airport. And all of this would be occurring in the heart of downtown Cleveland. with developable land close by (current Amtrak station property and East 9th frontage are both city-owned). I encourage all those reading this to support All Aboard Ohio, NOACA, and the Northern Ohio Rail Alliance to help make this happen!

 

EDIT: see the presentation at http://freepdfhosting.com/2fa233f74a.pdf

The challenge here is not spending 30 mil. on a gerbil tube.  I am still very concerned about this project.  I would really like to see the connection incorporated into some other development (which of course would cost well more).  What that would be I have no idea.

The challenge here is not spending 30 mil. on a gerbil tube.  I am still very concerned about this project.  I would really like to see the connection incorporated into some other development (which of course would cost well more).  What that would be I have no idea.

 

If you look at the history of bad urban planning I'm certain the words "limited budget" and "narrow timeline" are common ingredients. Here we go again.

If you look at the history of bad urban planning I'm certain the words "limited budget" and "narrow timeline" were inherently involved. Here we go again.

 

Maybe it would be wise to wait and see what the proposals are before critiquing them?

I hope that this walkway not only contains future provisions for the parking deck, but also has removable walls above the tracks and Amtrak site to add a transportation center that has been dubbed the Lakefront Multimodal Transportation Center or the North Coast Transportation Center at various times in the past. Why build such a center? If you take the fast-growing annual boardings at the Amtrak station (50K) and Waterfront Line (300K), then add Greyhound (250K), Megabus (180K) and make the center a stop on downtown routings for Laketran (185K), Akron Metro RTA (105K), Stark Area RTA (10K+) and Portage Area RTA (5K+), you've got a robust transportation center with 1 million boardings per year!

 

That doesn't include increased transfers created by having improved connectivity between transportation modes. Even so, 1 million boardings are more than the 800,000 annual enplanements at Akron-Canton Regional Airport. And all of this would be occurring in the heart of downtown Cleveland. with developable land close by (current Amtrak station property and East 9th frontage are both city-owned). I encourage all those reading this to support All Aboard Ohio, NOACA, and the Northern Ohio Rail Alliance to help make this happen!

 

EDIT: see the presentation at http://freepdfhosting.com/2fa233f74a.pdf

 

So they're building this walkway directly over the RTA tracks with no connection even though it could allow rail passengers a direct connection to the Convention Center, while also allowing Convention Center patrons, and residents visitors to the planned new North Coast Harbor residential/office/retail project a direct rail connection to the new Flats East Bank entertainment district which is .7 miles away... Wouldn't this sort of transit connectivity have made sense for a large scale convention like, say, the 2016 RNC?

 

Why hasn't RTA spoken up about this?  Did All Aboard Ohio approach officials about this?  Obviously, as you note, this project ignores Amtrak too.  Looks like a seriously missed opportunity.

because its the internet. And im critical of the process as theres only the gerbil tube rendering. 

The gerbil tube hasn't been on the table for a while. I think the latest concept would be fine....

 

^I have to disagree...to me that design is nothing but an "enhanced" gerbil tube.

So how do you otherwise do an inside/outside walkway?

 

EDIT: and within budget?

^Like I said above...I have no clue.  I just know I don't like the look of this and would like to see it incorporated into some sort of other project which of course is not going to happen due to cost (and time).  So I am a bit worried and hope for the best when the proposals come in.

^I'd prefer the gerbil tube to be in the middle of the walkway so that one could truly outside looking both east and west.  So no one is 'trapped' in any of the three long corridors, there should egress points along the way, allowing one to enter or leave the tube every 100 feet or so. That's also good for safety and fire safety if there's a fire in the tube and people need to get out.

What's with the 90 degree turns as well? A slight curve would look nicer. For the money we are spending we might as well just make East 9th and East 3rd look nicer with plantings, lighting, etc. This bridge won't really provide that much more convenient of a walk. And it will be a long isolated one.

What's with the 90 degree turns as well? A slight curve would look nicer. For the money we are spending we might as well just make East 9th and East 3rd look nicer with plantings, lighting, etc. This bridge won't really provide that much more convenient of a walk. And it will be a long isolated one.

 

Even taking a diagonal angle from the south side of the Shoreway to the Science Center would be better. But I think the idea behind the right angles was to have the walkway leave from a little closer to the middle of the new parking deck and then go over the Shoreway to the Science Center. There is proposed to be parking below the rooftop "civic plaza" shown below....

 

So how do you otherwise do an inside/outside walkway?

 

EDIT: and within budget?

 

Two levels, enclosed on bottom and open on top could incorporate both components while being less gerbil tube-esque. I don't think there are any easy answers to making this look good and it is a design challenge. But sometimes good design rises to a challenge, let's hope that's the case here.