November 8, 201410 yr Just playing along with the famous Clevelander bridge (the Charles Bridge in Prague is awesome), who would be on there? Rockefeller Garrett Morgan Tom Johnson Marcus Hanna Moses Cleaveland Stokes Bob Hope Garfield Mantis & Oris Van Sweringen Brush Schrekengost (sp) +Johnny Manziel
November 8, 201410 yr Just playing along with the famous Clevelander bridge (the Charles Bridge in Prague is awesome), who would be on there? Rockefeller Garrett Morgan Tom Johnson Marcus Hanna Moses Cleaveland Stokes Bob Hope Garfield Mantis & Oris Van Sweringen Brush Schrekengost (sp) Oliver Hough Thomas White John Severance George Gund Samuel Mather Jeptha Wade
November 8, 201410 yr I would love to see a phase 2 where a partial cap could happen between the East 9th Street overpass and the new bridge.
November 9, 201410 yr As much as I dislike where the Amtrak station is and how out of date it is I think we are stuck with it for a while. Thoughts of an updated Transportation Center hopefully is in the works but in the meantime I am trying to think of ways to make it more accessible. With the new pedestrian bridge just months from construction I am suggesting an elevator at about the halfway point from the bridge to the Amtrak station. When someone arrives at the station and needs to get to the mall they can simply take the elevator up to the bridge and walk to the mall and the future hotels that will be ready to go. If a visitor is staying at one of the hotels and is travelling by Amtrak they can then go to the new pedestrian bridge and take the elevator down to the Amtrak station for departure. Of the three bridge options the 'cable-stayed' one works the best as it would hide the elevator structure the best, and it is closest to the building. There can be Amtrak wayfinding signs on the mall directing passengers to the bridge. There would have to be a walkway built on the station grounds to the elevator entrance. So anyways just an idea that should be considered.
November 9, 201410 yr I would love to see a phase 2 where a partial cap could happen between the East 9th Street overpass and the new bridge. That would be nice but: you're covering up the train station Willard Park is development space. Hilton wanted to develop this space in the late 80s/early 90s I would like to see the convention center extended and integrated into the transportation center. Build in street connections to Lakeside and East 9th. That would be a win-wiw for everyone. Use the top as green space/scenic overlook The parking lots behind city hall & the county building should be turned into green space and a connectors.
November 9, 201410 yr This pedestrian bridge will attract more photographers than walkers and bikers. This is a lazy, wussy city that doesn't walk, least of all in places or at times of the year prone to wind-whipped cold/snowy weather. This is a city where people drive around looking for a parking space nearer to the front door of their fitness center. This is a city where theater-goers prefer to park in a garage and walk through an enclosed walkway into downtown theaters without ever setting foot on a city street. This is a city where the downtown sidewalks are empty during the lunch hour with ill weather. Women won't feel safe walking across Ohio's longest walkway without any mid-point escape routes. If a wind-fence is added to this walkway, I can picture that it will actually become a snow fence by slowing down the wind above it and depositing drifts on the walkway. Do we actually believe the city will remove snow and ice from the walkway in a timely manner? A comfortable walkway that's more like a climate-controlled concourse (ie: those that link Toronto Union Station to the convention center, Olympic Park--now the aquarium--and Skydome) with retail kiosks, advertising and other amenities can't be built for $25 million. So before no one uses this and planners get angry at people for being wussies, maybe they should recognize that people are wussies and hold off on building something for one week in the summer of 2016. Instead, wait to do it right and build a big-city structure that respects the citizens rather than pads an architect's portfolio. But it will sure be 'purdy. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 10, 201410 yr Does Toronto's PATH system have frequent access/escape points? I've never actually been inside it and only learned of its existence from a recent article I wrote about its expansion.
November 10, 201410 yr This pedestrian bridge will attract more photographers than walkers and bikers. This is a lazy, wussy city that doesn't walk, least of all in places or at times of the year prone to wind-whipped cold/snowy weather. This is a city where people drive around looking for a parking space nearer to the front door of their fitness center. This is a city where theater-goers prefer to park in a garage and walk through an enclosed walkway into downtown theaters without ever setting foot on a city street. This is a city where the downtown sidewalks are empty during the lunch hour with ill weather. Women won't feel safe walking across Ohio's longest walkway without any mid-point escape routes. If a wind-fence is added to this walkway, I can picture that it will actually become a snow fence by slowing down the wind above it and depositing drifts on the walkway. Do we actually believe the city will remove snow and ice from the walkway in a timely manner? A comfortable walkway that's more like a climate-controlled concourse (ie: those that link Toronto Union Station to the convention center, Olympic Park--now the aquarium--and Skydome) with retail kiosks, advertising and other amenities can't be built for $25 million. So before no one uses this and planners get angry at people for being wussies, maybe they should recognize that people are wussies and hold off on building something for one week in the summer of 2016. Instead, wait to do it right and build a big-city structure that respects the citizens rather than pads an architect's portfolio. But it will sure be 'purdy. Well said KJP. You are exactly right. I'm hoping the new generation of millenials changes that mentality with regard to traversing the city of Cleveland. Almost everything I have seen from this design, I do not agree with. From the termination point, to the scaling of the bridge down to the functionality of it, and what prupose it actually serves. Everyone keeps saying that this will connect sus to our lakefront. Sure, there's a lake there, but definately not a lakefront. Lets stop saying this is a connection to the lakefront, and start saying this is a connection to undeveloped parcels of land that no one has been able to walk to in years because lying between it, and the rest of the city are railroad tracks and a freeway. If we make a sensible connection, people may stand up and develop it.
November 10, 201410 yr The recent article says that they are seeking public feedback on the bridge... will there actually be a meeting or hearing in which the public can show up and voice their concerns?
November 10, 201410 yr The recent article says that they are seeking public feedback on the bridge... will there actually be a meeting or hearing in which the public can show up and voice their concerns? There was one last week. Submit your written feedback to: Brian Reynolds at [email protected] "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 13, 201410 yr The recent article says that they are seeking public feedback on the bridge... will there actually be a meeting or hearing in which the public can show up and voice their concerns? Yes. They announce this afternoon there will be a meeting tonight asking for public input. Asinine. http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/which_lakefront_bridge_design.html A free public forum on the bridge – a priority of Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson for completion before the Republican National Convention in 2016 – will be held tonight from 6 to 7:30 p.m. in Council Chambers at the Cuyahoga County Administrative Headquarters, 2079 E. 9th St., Cleveland.
November 13, 201410 yr The cable-stayed design is my favorite. I'm glad it is considered the early front-runner. As for the concerns some have raised about protection from the elements in the colder months, Litt posted the following in the comments section: "Thanks for commenting. Windscreens are proposed, but there's a tradeoff in terms of higher cost of maintenance. With glass or clear acrylic screens you'd need frequent cleaning to prevent etching, staining and what birds leave behind."
November 13, 201410 yr I will try to attend the meeting. Are they trying to get as few people to show up as possible by announcing the meeting just a few hours before? I stand by that they are doing this all wrong. It shouldn't be a suspension bridge... ice and snow will be falling from the cables on top of pedestrians. It needs to feel more like an extension of the mall - think something like the High Line in NYC - with planters, benches, and trash bins along the whole thing. And it's a mistake to have it terminate at the Rock Hall. The real development is going to be occurring north of the Browns stadium, and that's where people should be directed. Why don't they collaborate with the Science Center and connect the bridge to the top of the Science Center garage (where there is already a path built), and build a ramp/stairs leading to Erieside Ave. This would create a seamless connection from the mall to the lakefront - and much of it is already built on top of the parking garage! Yeah, this may be a bit more expensive, but we can't half-ass this project. If it can't be built in time for the RNC, then so be it. The RNC only lasts a week, and this project could mean the difference between an underutilized bridge and a vibrant connection to the lakefront.
November 13, 201410 yr Are they trying to get as few people to show up as possible by announcing the meeting just a few hours before? This meeting was announced at least a week ago in Litt's previous article... "In addition, the designs will be the focus of a free public meeting from 6 to 7:30 p.m. on Thursday, Nov. 13, in the County Council chambers on the fourth floor of the county administration building, 2079 East Ninth St., Cleveland." http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/city_county_seek_public_respon.html
November 13, 201410 yr ^ My bad. I guess I missed that, and KJP said that the meeting already happened. Is anyone else on here going to go?
November 13, 201410 yr I think the cable-stayed design is rather sexy, but Urbanophile raises a good point about the snow falling from the cables. The cable-stayed (suspension) design probably works best for cars instead of people, but I'm not yet prepared to rule it out without full information.
November 13, 201410 yr Oh no..... another pedestrian death trap in downtown! ;) I kid.... Seriously, though, as I think was mentioned upthread, High Line in NYC was built on top of EXISTING infrastructure. That makes a huge difference in terms of the overall cost of the project. I imagine that we determined a budget for the project and these are the designs which Rosales estimates can fall within that budget. Absent some unforeseen private donations being earmarked for this project, it's largely a waste of time to debate what could be with unlimited resources. As for the termination point, why not the RRHOF? It is our most visited attraction and a good center point for everything people head towards at lake level
November 13, 201410 yr Is the difference in cost going to be *that* much different by simply building a wider bridge without all the fancy suspensions? I'm not asking for a High Line replica... just a wider, more pedestrian-friendly bridge with some benches and places for shrubs and flowers. And it's honestly not that much longer to connect it to the top of the Science Center garage. There could also be a spot to get off the bridge in front of the Science Center with a path leading to the Rock Hall. I know what I'm asking for would cost more money, but I'm tired of projects like this being half-assed. I'd rather it not be built in time for the RNC if it means a better design.
November 13, 201410 yr The answer to that question is "absolutely." Bridges are some of the most expensive structures on earth for their size. The cable stay design is actually one of the most cost-effective ways of supporting a bridge. Widening it isn't as simple as just making the path bigger. Expanding one element requires literally every single part of the bridge (structurally that is) to change. I personally like the designs presented because I understand that they're appropriate based on the desired budget. If we feel like raising funds to build an extension of the mall I'll come back to this thread in 2047 to see how that's going.
November 13, 201410 yr I always thought that cable/suspension bridges were a bit more expensive, which is why all the large bridges in Cleveland built recently (shoreway and innerbelt bridges) are not built in that style. Wouldn't ODOT have built a cable bridge if it was more cost-effective? And I still think falling ice would be a problem - just like it has been a problem for the I-280 in Toledo. But in this case, the ice will be falling on peoples' heads, not their cars.
November 13, 201410 yr The answer to that question is "absolutely." Bridges are some of the most expensive structures on earth for their size. The cable stay design is actually one of the most cost-effective ways of supporting a bridge. Widening it isn't as simple as just making the path bigger. Expanding one element requires literally every single part of the bridge (structurally that is) to change. I personally like the designs presented because I understand that they're appropriate based on the desired budget. If we feel like raising funds to build an extension of the mall I'll come back to this thread in 2047 to see how that's going. I'm starting to feel like this connector is an ill-planned waste of money.
November 14, 201410 yr ^That's what's driving the timing, but this was in the works long before the RNC was known to be coming. The main function is only slightly broader, though: taking conventioneers from the Mall to the lakefront attractions, which will be the R&RHOF, Science Museum, and whatever retail/restaurants Pace builds between them and right near them.
November 14, 201410 yr Anyone here know what in the world is going on with this former connection to the lakefront? How about we spend money to fix this first. CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Many Cleveland Browns fans will be forced to take a different path to walk to FirstEnergy Stadium on game days. On Monday, Cleveland officials announced that the pedestrian bridge leading to FirstEnergy Stadium that spans the Cleveland Memorial Shoreway will be closed indefinitely. http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2014/08/new_cleveland_browns_tailgatin.html
November 14, 201410 yr the conspiracy theorists believe that the browns have put pressure on the city to close the bridge.
November 14, 201410 yr I wonder if a pedestrian tunnel was ever considered or explored. It could connect from inside the convention center and rise about where the wind turbine is. It would be climate controlled with less maintenance. It could also connect with a future transportation center/parking structure. Wide enough for pedestrians and bikes. Sounds like a winner to me.
November 14, 201410 yr Was anyone else at the meeting this evening? It seems like the cable-stayed design is the most likely to happen. I'd be interested to see if they make any changes after the suggestions that were made by those who spoke.
November 14, 201410 yr Could you summarize some of the suggestions that were made at the meeting for those of us who couldn't get there?
November 14, 201410 yr A few people wanted it to be wider. There was a lot of worrying that there is not enough room for foot and bike traffic going both ways. The architect pointed out that anything wider than 16 feet would be very expensive (and it could only be as wide as 16 feet toward the middle where the support tower is). Someone suggested a "lookout" area that juts out from the area at the tower. Not a bad idea, really, for those who want a nice view out of the way of foot traffic. There were suggestions to make the bridge blend better with the mall (similar to what I was suggesting earlier in this thread). I brought up the idea of planters, trash bins, and benches along the bridge. Oh, and he showed new renderings which show some benches toward the middle of the bridge, so we'll probably at least get that. A lot of people were concerned with the lack of coverage. I brought up the idea of connecting the bridge to the GLSC parking garage, to connect it to the real developments that will be built north of the Browns stadium. I doubt it's much of a possibility, but I at least planted the idea in their heads :P That's pretty much it. From what it sounds like, we are going to be getting some variation of the cable-stayed design. It is very hard to build support columns below because of the train tracks, so a High Line-esque bridge would be more difficult to build. Oh, and it sounds like the Pace development is pretty sure to happen, as they are working with Pace so the termination point of the bridge interacts well with the development.
November 14, 201410 yr In the latest shots, does there seem to be enough room to build underneath if funding is found and the various groups come together? My initial thought was yes, but I'm not in engineering. http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/cable-stayed_design_preferred.html#incart_m-rpt-1
November 14, 201410 yr I know what I'm asking for would cost more money, but I'm tired of projects like this being half-assed. I'd rather it not be built in time for the RNC if it means a better design. Where does it end? Suppose they had the funds for and designed a wider bridge. People would then be calling it half-assed based on the materials used..... or the fact it is not covered..... or that the design is not iconic enough..... and where are the sculptures carved out of marble lining the walkway? What makes you think that the desire to build it prior to the RNC is the determinative factor in its cost? If we waited, are we suddenly going to find more $$ to throw at the project. I imagine that there was a lot of discussion deliberation about how much $$ would be dedicated to construction of this bridge. Several consideration surely came into play. I would bet that there is a bridge that could be built for $10 million or less and I bet there is a bridge that could be built for $100 million or more. What we have hear is a design based on a pre-determined budget for the project. If we can do better within that budget, I'd be fully on board with the complaints. But I don't see any evidence of that. I wonder if a pedestrian tunnel was ever considered or explored. It could connect from inside the convention center and rise about where the wind turbine is. It would be climate controlled with less maintenance. It could also connect with a future transportation center/parking structure. Wide enough for pedestrians and bikes. Sounds like a winner to me. You are talking about one of those hamster tubes? That wouldn't be popular on here. I also imagine it might be an engineering nightmare. You are talking about digging under heavy rail tracks and a highway..... and through what is basically landfill
November 14, 201410 yr This view actually looks kinda cool.... I saw the article linked above, but here it is more prominently..... Cable-stayed design, preferred by public at meeting, is likely choice for lakefront pedestrian bridge (slideshow) By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer on November 14, 2014 at 7:05 AM, updated November 14, 2014 at 7:07 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio - Positive feedback from the public at a Thursday night meeting has made it all but certain that Cleveland and Cuyahoga County will choose a cable-stayed design for a new bike and pedestrian bridge on the city's lakefront. "We're going to pursue refining this design," Bonnie Teeuwen, the county's director of public works, said after the 90-minute meeting, which drew more than 100 county residents to Council chambers at the county's headquarters at Prospect and East 9th Street. "There were no comments today that made us think this is the wrong alternative to pursue," she said, speaking of the bold, dramatic and heroic-looking cable-stayed design. "I think it's the input we get from the public and it's also the input from the design team." READ MORE AT: http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/cable-stayed_design_preferred.html#incart_m-rpt-1 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 14, 201410 yr It's a shame that despite all this planning, debate, review and discourse, the GOP will still book shuttle buses to ferry conventioneers to and from the RRHOF and GLSC for events....
November 14, 201410 yr One mildly interesting thing in the slides shown with today's Litt article (http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/11/cable-stayed_design_preferred.html#incart_m-rpt-1) is how a waterfront cafe could be embedded in this hillside between the RRHOF and Science Center, and how the pedestrian bridge might interact with it. It's on slides 17 and 19. I wonder if this is the scale of development Pace has in mind for this site if he doesn't end up putting a hotel there.
November 14, 201410 yr It's a shame that despite all this planning, debate, review and discourse, the GOP will still book shuttle buses to ferry conventioneers to and from the RRHOF and GLSC for events.... Well Downtown is going to be so quarantined off, it's going to lose much of its cozy feel anyway. But plenty of people will use it ...reporters, aids, attendees, etc
November 14, 201410 yr I like the green space between the GLSC and RRHOF. I think it would be a bad move to put a building on that piece of land. It will be nice to walk down the new bridge and have a clear unobstructed view of the lake. Let all the development be done north of First Energy stadium. Just my thought.
November 14, 201410 yr How about another staircase at the northwestern apex going toward Browns stadium? It would make the walk shorter and less onerous if you are going the stadium or future Pace developments north of the stadium. If we are stuck with this design, it should at least be more usable.
November 14, 201410 yr You are talking about one of those hamster tubes? That wouldn't be popular on here. I also imagine it might be an engineering nightmare. You are talking about digging under heavy rail tracks and a highway..... and through what is basically landfill Actually I was thinking about something more like what is pictured below but I don't want to take the discussion away from the bridge. I am sure it is feasible but at what cost? Idk. As far as the current design of the cable-stayed bridge I like it a lot. Although it is probably more form than function which I don't have a problem with. I love iconic design and it will be a great image for the city. But it will be busy during the summer and virtually empty on nights like tonight. I don't like the ODOT inspired 'off ramp' as it takes away from the overall design off the bridge. And I wish something other than the wind screen pictured can be found, as it looks too much like chain link fence. And hopefully if a transportation center ever becomes reality a connection can be made to the bridge.
November 14, 201410 yr I like the green space between the GLSC and RRHOF. I think it would be a bad move to put a building on that piece of land. It will be nice to walk down the new bridge and have a clear unobstructed view of the lake. Let all the development be done north of First Energy stadium. Just my thought. Greenspace is great. But the connections between the existing buildings are really dysfunctional. New infrastructure can bridge these gaps and preserve the lake views if done the right way.
November 14, 201410 yr I'm okay with the design, but I think a lot of work needs to be done in the area between the RRHoF and the GLSC. The current proposal reminds me too much of a freeway exit.
November 14, 201410 yr ^Keep in mind that a ramped descent from the minimum height needed to clear Erieside Avenue requires a lot of length. If that length isn't spiraled liked that, it needs to go somewhere else, and if you unspool it, you're essentially creating a long wall between Erieside and the harbor. I don't love the spiral, but it may be the best alternative.
November 14, 201410 yr ^Keep in mind that a ramped descent from the minimum height needed to clear Erieside Avenue requires a lot of length. If that length isn't spiraled liked that, it needs to go somewhere else, and if you unspool it, you're essentially creating a long wall between Erieside and the harbor. I don't love the spiral, but it may be the best alternative. And it's relatively low maintenance. It will require less servicing than an elevator to be ADA compliant -- even though I don't think it has to be since no federal funds were involved. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 14, 201410 yr ^Keep in mind that a ramped descent from the minimum height needed to clear Erieside Avenue requires a lot of length. If that length isn't spiraled liked that, it needs to go somewhere else, and if you unspool it, you're essentially creating a long wall between Erieside and the harbor. I don't love the spiral, but it may be the best alternative. And it's relatively low maintenance. It will require less servicing than an elevator to be ADA compliant -- even though I don't think it has to be since no federal funds were involved. I think the ADA somehow applies to state and local governments even if no federal money is involved. I am just thinking of a few examples, ie, ramps on sidewalks down to the curb, that aren't typically funded with federal money. Also, the feds don't give any money for school construction, but new schools are still ADA compliant. I have no actual experience with this, that's just anecdotal.
November 14, 201410 yr I think the ADA somehow applies to state and local governments even if no federal money is involved. I am just thinking of a few examples, ie, ramps on sidewalks down to the curb, that aren't typically funded with federal money. Also, the feds don't give any money for school construction, but new schools are still ADA compliant. I have no actual experience with this, that's just anecdotal. You're right. I remember the lawsuit that was filed against Ohio cities regarding the curb cuts/sidewalk ramps at crosswalks. It was done under the federal civil rights provisions that any public facility accessible to an able-bodied person has to be equally accessible to a disabled person. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 20, 201410 yr ^Keep in mind that a ramped descent from the minimum height needed to clear Erieside Avenue requires a lot of length. If that length isn't spiraled liked that, it needs to go somewhere else, and if you unspool it, you're essentially creating a long wall between Erieside and the harbor. I don't love the spiral, but it may be the best alternative. And it's relatively low maintenance. It will require less servicing than an elevator to be ADA compliant -- even though I don't think it has to be since no federal funds were involved. I think the ADA somehow applies to state and local governments even if no federal money is involved. I am just thinking of a few examples, ie, ramps on sidewalks down to the curb, that aren't typically funded with federal money. Also, the feds don't give any money for school construction, but new schools are still ADA compliant. I have no actual experience with this, that's just anecdotal. Any new construction has to be ADA compliant per the Ohio Building Code regardless of funding. Only certain occupancies can you get away with not making the building or area ADA compliant. https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
November 21, 201410 yr More from Michelle: Michelle J. McFee mjarboe[/member] 2h2 hours ago Legislation headed to @CleCityCouncil also extends deadline to execute #CLE lakefront option agreement w/ developer from 12.2.14 to 6.30.15. Michelle J. McFee mjarboe[/member] 2h2 hours ago #CLE lakefront hotel site posed potential conflict for $25M public pedestrian bridge, to touch down between Rock Hall and Science Center. Michelle J. McFee mjarboe[/member] · 2h 2 hours ago Developer Pace confirms that #CLE lakefront hotel will NOT sit between Rock Hall, Science Center. If built, will go north of Science Center. Michelle J. McFee mjarboe[/member] · 2h 2 hours ago At #CLE City Planning. Lakefront developer Dick Pace revising phasing for proposed project, from 3 phases to 4. Financing, timing reasons. Michelle J. McFee mjarboe[/member] · 2h 2 hours ago Updated phasing plan for #CLE lakefront projects proposed by Cumberland Development, Trammell Crow. @CLEcityplanning "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 21, 201410 yr And here's Michelle's article: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/lakefront_hotel_if_built_wont.html#incart_m-rpt-1 Sounds like phase I is on a fast track: The northern end of the span will touch down between the science center and the Rock Hall, on a tight site where Cleveland's lakefront plan also calls for a two-story, 45,000-square-foot retail building. Pace and Trammell Crow still hope to start constructing that retail building and other projects north of the Rock Hall next year.
November 21, 201410 yr How can that drawing be released with the outline of the old municipal stadium. Seriously...
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