More I think about it this could be a really cool dual TOD with TC on one end of the WFL and this on the other.  A "nicer" TC with higher end store combined with this, and the FEB in the middle, could make for a really cool shopping by rail experience.

What a crappy location for such a monstrosity.  Prime lakefront land for this, really? 

 

This is not prime lakefront land. This is on a parking lot hidden behind other buildings. This land was being marketed for office use. It's not as if this is being built on the water.

 

And right next to an airport.

 

A perfect place for an aviation related business to locate.  Have you ever wondered by airports like Cuyahoga County and Akron Canton are ringed with aviation businesses and Cleveland's airports have relatively few?  My guess is in the management philosophy. 

Interestingly, if you link the Waterfront line South Harbor Station with this development and there is a decent walkthrough the retail structure, you end up with another airport-to-rail link.

I love it. This definitely would be a regional draw. I want this in the parameters of the city. I'm all in. Let's do it

FYI...

 

@steven_litt Sorry, but proposed outlet mall sounds like a new mistake on the lake. https://t.co/hGJ97FsAPa https://t.co/cuSlL39NTb

Someone mentioned their other developments - it looks like this won't be a ___ Premium Outlets center, which is a Simon brand - and typically carries stores like Coach, but a traditional outlet center - which still isn't bad. If this offers free parking, which all outlet centers do, that will be a great draw.

The outlets should go at Tower City.  Perfect match for the casino and hotel. 

Interestingly' date=' if you link the Waterfront line South Harbor Station with this development and there is a decent walkthrough the retail structure, you end up with another airport-to-rail link.[/quote']

 

I like the idea of a rail connection to BKL. I always tell people to use E. 9 St. and walk.... but South Harbor is closer as the crow flies. How do you envision the connection occur given the Shoreway---a tunnel under it or a bridge over it?  And either way, a step-activated moving sidewalk would make it very user friendly.

 

Of course, such a connection could also be done for any use in the BKL parking lot. I'd still favor offices here--especially with tenants that would take advantage of the adjacent airport.

I like this idea. It reminds me of a cross between the Beverly Center in LA and Opry Mills in Nashville (both places I've enjoyed shopping at). I always loved how the Beverly Center was stacked upon the parking decks, instead of being surrounded by a sea of lots and garages, and I think that will be fantastic here at well (space constrains and all). Opry Mills is a destination outlet mall by itself, but it ties in well with the surrounding attractions (Grand Ole Opry, Opryland Hotel) and brings people down there that otherwise wouldn't go to those. This has the opportunity to do the same with the Rock Hall and Science Center. This will also be a huge draw right on the lake, and people who go for shopping will venture out to the other venues/restaurants/parks. If it happens in Nashville in 110 degree heat and humidity, it can happen here too.

 

I also don't see this taking away from the current shopping centers in NEO. As others have stated, outlet malls area different beast as compared to your Beachwood Places, Crocker Parks, and even your mid tier malls like Strongsville or Great Northern. With that said, Tower City and the streets will continue developing towards those markets as they are. NEO is also terribly under served with outlet shopping as it is. Lodi is very distant, and Aurora (even with "Premium" in the name) is a dump. Wouldn't surprise me if the Sak's Off 5th jumped ship for here.

I'm not wild about this proposal because, even though it would represent large-scale retail and likely to attract a lot of people, it would be located at the fringes of downtown it would pull people away from the core Euclid/Prospect corridor which is the natural location for retail given this area's density, transit access and high walkability.  You know Clevelanders: give them a major shopping center, a freeway access and substantial available parking, and you can envision many folks driving in, shopping, and leaving without interacting at all with downtown. 

 

That said, if this project is built at Burke, I would favor a bridge over the Muny Lot and Shoreway connecting Burke and the outlets with the South Harbor terminal of Waterfront Rapid line.  And since it would service shoppers and some air travelers, I'd recommend this bridge to be covered and temperature controlled.

Odd placement here but I'm happy to see any retail downtown.  Decent location if it can be hooked up to the WFL, but that's a big if, since the county-funded convention center didn't bother with that.  I just hope they don't block the rail line with a parking deck, like Van Aken did.

It'd be nice to see them rework the western approach, as that side of the project is indeed waterfront, and should be a major pedestrian throughway between the outlet mall and the rest of Northcoast Harbor.  I don't even see a pedestrian entrance marked anywhere on these renderings.  There should be a major entrance there, and at least that side of the building should have some outward facing street level retail/restaurants/something besides parking.  I think if they were smart they would also put a residential tower or two on that side of the building.

What a crappy location for such a monstrosity.  Prime lakefront land for this, really? 

 

This is not prime lakefront land. This is on a parking lot hidden behind other buildings. This land was being marketed for office use. It's not as if this is being built on the water.

 

And right next to an airport.

 

Yes it's an airport but it's a rather serene one.

 

Like it or not there is not much land available along the Lakefront. At least not immediately available. Because of that the design should reflect that the place is a special one.

Why aren't the outlets aren't considering the Muny Lot itself instead?  There you've got a sea of surface parking -- it is a parking lot, after all -- and adjacent empty land to the east where parking could be expanded if need be.  There's Shoreway access and the Waterfront Line Rapid station directly adjacent to it -- you wouldn't even need a bridge over the Shoreway for WFL riders... The Muny Lot is huge and, I'm sure, would be more than sufficient for a very large outlet mall/shopping center... Seems to make too much sense.

^ The Muny Lot isn't for sale at the moment - that could be a reason.  :wtf:

^ The Muny Lot isn't for sale at the moment - that could be a reason.  :wtf:

 

It's a municipal lot, ... as in owned by the City.  Make it available.  That's easy enough, and the City would reap the tax windfall.

^ The Muny Lot isn't for sale at the moment - that could be a reason.  :wtf:

 

It's a municipal lot, ... as in owned by the City.  Make it available.  That's easy enough, and the City would reap the tax windfall.

 

Or better yet, sit them down with Dan Gilbert and get Phase II done of the casino. This is the perfect pairing with that.  Casino crowds love outlet malls.  And Phase II needs some help if it's ever going to get off the ground.    Too bad Mayor Jackson is the most savvy deal broker.

^ The Muny Lot isn't for sale at the moment - that could be a reason.  :wtf:

 

Neither were the city-owned parking lots around the Greyhound station until a developer (Geis) expressed interest in them. Then, suddenly, they were the subject of an RFP. Amazingly a company affiliated with Geis won the RFP. The city-owned parking lot at Burke Airport wasn't for sale/lease either until a developer (again, Geis) showed interest in it.

 

Of course the city would put up for sale/lease some/all of the Muny Parking Lot if a developer wanted to buy it.

The only thing I like about having shopping anywhere near the lake is that the RRHOF needs more than a science center to maximize its potential...today's visitors to destinations are always interested in having the option of shopping nearby. 

My great fear is that the beautiful development we're seeing right now along the lake - (I love the new complex at Voinovich Park) will be

ruined by a parking lot and a bad looking outlet mall right on our most precious lakefront...that would be a tremendous mistake.

About as dumb as building the football stadium on it.

The only thing I like about having shopping anywhere near the lake is that the RRHOF needs more than a science center to maximize its potential...today's visitors to destinations are always interested in having the option of shopping nearby. 

My great fear is that the beautiful development we're seeing right now along the lake - (I love the new complex at Voinovich Park) will be

ruined by a parking lot and a bad looking outlet mall right on our most precious lakefront...that would be a tremendous mistake.

About as dumb as building the football stadium on it.

But the model shows the parking will be built into the structure, sort of like University Square.

 

Edit: Nvm....Seems that you were speaking in general.

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

If this gets built, I'm guessing the effect on downtown would be pretty imperceptible. Not much different from Steelyard. A nice amenity for residents with cars or maybe trolley riders, but essentially zero foot traffic generation. The exception, I suppose, is what CleveFan points out: if the pedestrian link is nice enough, it could complement the North Coast harbor attractions.

 

I don't know if that's really a criticism, though. If nothing else, the city and RTA can use the tax revenue and it does make downtown living incrementally more convenient. The unknown, I guess, is what it does to the viability of future storefront retail downtown. 

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of support for this on here. I'm glad Litt sees how bad this will be.

 

Has anyone looked at their other properties? It's mostly very, very bland exurban. No reason to think this will be something of high quality or even remotely urban even if stores are on top of the parking. It will look even worse if it's half full which is somewhat likely considering all the retail in the region.

With all of the indoor "mall" space (ie. Galleria, Arcades, Tower City) or even the commercial space to be built in already planned projects around popular downtown amenities, I'm surprised at not only the remote location but their plan for new construction. I know it's a part of a bigger plan for the lakefront area but I'd expect them to want to see more progress on residential north of the highway. If the lakefront project plan with highway and mass transit access is enough for them to bring this to the table then maybe we're starting to see commercial timidness start to fade? At the very least it'll be a great indoor restroom for December tailgaters.  :drunk:

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of support for this on here. I'm glad Litt sees how bad this will be.

 

Has anyone looked at their other properties? It's mostly very, very bland exurban. No reason to think this will be something of high quality or even remotely urban even if stores are on top of the parking. It will look even worse if it's half full which is somewhat likely considering all the retail in the region.

 

Me too.  And yes it would be taking up rather prime land (for something that doesn't require such a location (and as someone said the Muni lot would be a better location)).  It even towers over the USS COD submarine... 

Anyone have a sense how well used the Muni lot is these days on a typical weekday? That area seems essentially incidental to downtown, too, but at least it has the direct transit link.

I love the idea of an outlet mall downtown but agree it should be in Tower City. These guys need to talk to Dan Gilbert.

Anyone have a sense how well used the Muni lot is these days on a typical weekday? That area seems essentially incidental to downtown, too, but at least it has the direct transit link.

 

The Muny Lots used to be full all the way to the east end as recently as the early 1990s. Now they are typically half full, with the east end of the lots used for city vehicle storage, testing and training.

^Interesting, thanks. Any sense who parks there? People who work in the Erieview area? Do they use the Northpoint Garage to reach downtown?

BTW, here's my concept site plan for developing the Muny Lots......

 

munylot-burke-waterfronttod-s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Is there still talk of turning the Downtown portion of the Shoreway into a boulevard?  That should guide whatever other plans are being made for Burke and Muni parking lots.

A downtown outlet mall does sound like a good idea, and I know it was talked about in the past, yet nothing has come to fruition. But the lakefront is too important an asset to the CLE to have one built there. And from the looks of the structure depicted in the drawings posted here on UO and other news outlets, I think if an outlet mall is built where proposed, within 5-10 years the CLE would end up with another Euclid Sq Mall or Coliseum of Richfield before demolition. It seems the location is not really a good one even though it is right at a freeway.

 

There are other options imv, but if any of these were feasible, would they have already been suggested, or studies done to determine their viability? I don't know.

 

Most people seem to think that Tower City is the best option, and it may be, but is there enough sq footage in TC to fill 300,000 plus sq ft? Or would an addition have to be built on the back of TC to meet the square footage proposed for the lakefront. TC does have the public transportation infrastructure already in place, and there is plenty of parking. Another added bonus to TC is the casino as someone else already mentioned. It does seem to me that casino's and outlet malls go hand in hand. I've seen enough of them in my travels.

 

The downfall to TC is it is not that close to where the majority of downtown residents are currently located. It obviously is in walking/transit distance for downtown residents, but that depends on if these same residents are willing to walk/transit their way to TC. I would think most would be as one does not necessarily need to outlet shop weekly.

 

A second option could be the old May Co building and Euclid/Prospect Ave. There are plenty of empty storefronts on both Euclid and Prospect that need retailers, along with the long vacant May Co.

 

The first floor of the May Co building could be divided up for numerous tenants, and maybe even other floors could be used too if the building could be retrofitted/designed properly to accommodated multiple retail tenants. Whatever tenants could not go into the May Co building could spread out along Euclid and Prospect. Maybe even into the 5th Street Arcades. And if enough energy (shopping) was desired by downtown CLE becoming a shopping destination again, eventually store fronts can be filled all the way to PHS, even retailers opening up shops in the basement retail area of the 925 building once it is reopened.

 

It sure would be nice to see a retail vibrant Euclid and Prospect Avenues again. Even more so than what is already taking place (Heinen's, Geiger's, Metro Home on E. 9th).

 

A third option could be the Galleria at Erieview. The Galleria has approximately 138,000 sq ft of retail space of which the YMCA has taken 40,000. So that leaves 98,000 sq ft. An additional 200-250k sq ft of space would need to be constructed to accommodate what is proposed for Burke.

 

The only place to construct 200-250k sq ft of retail space unto the Galleria is the north side of the current structure (south side of Lakeside Ave). It would not be a great loss to lose most of the structures on that part of Lakeside. The only building imo worth keeping would be the former Ohio Bell building (not sure what it is currently named). Any additional structure connected to the Galleria would definitely have to be a multi-story building I would think.

 

The problem with this location though is public transit access, and walking distance from where the majority of downtown residents currently are living. There is underground parking, and plenty of lots and street parking.

 

Any of the three locations above would add much more vibrancy to downtown CLE than would the BUrke location.

Is there still talk of turning the Downtown portion of the Shoreway into a boulevard?  That should guide whatever other plans are being made for Burke and Muni parking lots.

 

Not a boulevard in the case where the West 3rd and East 9th ramps would be replaced with intersections, but with a new intersection south of Burke like the ones in my map. The new intersection was proposed to improve access to Geis' then-proposed office development and, as a side benefit, to the proposed Lakefront Intermodal Transportation Center. The latter is how I came to hear of it.

Personally I love the idea and the location. We have so much land that this could be plopped right there and we could still build things around it. And this would be a regional draw (depending on the mix of retail of course). And it would certainly make sense to put it here in the sense of helping attract even more visitors to the lakefront. It attracts people to downtown shopping in a way that nothing else could. Plus, as I've said a thousand times before, I want the city to be competitive with every area in the region. So I love it

Personally I love the idea and the location. We have so much land that this could be plopped right there and we could still build things around it.

 

We really don't have that much readily available Lakefront property though.

 

Sure waterfront retail is great! But this developer doesn't specialize in waterfront building, as far as I know.

Personally I love the idea and the location. We have so much land that this could be plopped right there and we could still build things around it.

 

We really don't have that much readily available Lakefront property though.

 

Sure waterfront retail is great! But this developer doesn't specialize in waterfront building, as far as I know.

 

Looking at Horizon's existing projects it specializes in locations right next to expressway interchanges. So the Marginal Rd. location right off of the Shoreway is perfect for them. No need to worry about pedestrian access to the WFL or other parts of the city because I'm pretty sure the developer could care less. Drive in from the suburbs and drive back out.

 

On the bright side maybe Cleveland will have Ohio's first Carl's Jr.  :-D

Looking at Horizon's existing projects it specializes in locations right next to expressway interchanges. So the Marginal Rd. location right off of the Shoreway is perfect for them. No need to worry about pedestrian access to the WFL or other parts of the city because I'm pretty sure the developer could care less. Drive in from the suburbs and drive back out.

 

On the bright side maybe Cleveland will have Ohio's first Carl's Jr.  :-D

 

I'm sure Horizon doesn't care, but Fred Geis does. Check out his twitter feed.

^Thanks Ken. That was great to see he retweeted AAO. Geis is going to have to spearhead this because reading Horizon's materials it's all about the car trips. For example, Horizon claims their East Hartford location is a great spot because it's next to an asphalt heavy Cabela's. The only foot traffic they care about is inside their facility, that's all.

Lakefront outlet mall proposed near Rock Hall needs radical improvement to be acceptable (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

Lakefront outlet mall proposed near Rock Hall needs radical improvement to be acceptable (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

Nice article.

 

I think the whole outlet mall needs to go away from that location.  Horrible idea.

Lakefront outlet mall proposed near Rock Hall needs radical improvement to be acceptable (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

Nice article.

 

I think the whole outlet mall needs to go away from that location.  Horrible idea.

 

Believe me I hate that render but I think outlets could be good, but only if the design fits the location. Monolithic structures are anathema to coastal access.

 

Now I've been lots of coastal places where retail adds a great deal of vibrancy.

 

A retail/family entertainment district like Broadway at the Beach or Barefoot Landing (both in Myrtle Beach) would be awesome for Cleveland.

 

 

Lakefront outlet mall proposed near Rock Hall needs radical improvement to be acceptable (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

Nice article.

 

I think the whole outlet mall needs to go away from that location.  Horrible idea.

 

Believe me I hate that render but I think outlets could be good, but only if the design fits the location. Monolithic structures are anathema to coastal access.

 

Now I've been lots of coastal places where retail adds a great deal of vibrancy.

 

A retail/family entertainment district like Broadway at the Beach or Barefoot Landing (both in Myrtle Beach) would be awesome for Cleveland.

 

 

 

It would never turn out like one of those due to one slight issue:  November through April would be BRUTAL walking around shops down there.

 

Tower City and Dan Gilbert should absolutely be on the radar for this.  Casinos and outlet malls draw the same crowds.

Lakefront outlet mall proposed near Rock Hall needs radical improvement to be acceptable (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

Nice article.

 

I think the whole outlet mall needs to go away from that location.  Horrible idea.

 

Believe me I hate that render but I think outlets could be good, but only if the design fits the location. Monolithic structures are anathema to coastal access.

 

Now I've been lots of coastal places where retail adds a great deal of vibrancy.

 

A retail/family entertainment district like Broadway at the Beach or Barefoot Landing (both in Myrtle Beach) would be awesome for Cleveland.

I have been to both of those and they are great.  My concern is during the cold months when there is an icy wind blowing off the frozen or almost frozen lake.  Perhaps a modification of that "look" with colonnades that have windows or panels that open when weather is more hospitable?

I definitely think outlets would flourish down here. Us millennials really only shop at outlets (I think it's a legacy of watching all of our parents lose their jobs and life savings during middle school, high school, and college :))

 

With the downtown resident demographic how it is--outlets are a great fit. But, as Steve Litt said, it's really got to fit the space and be more than just a shelled off outlet mall. Something more mixed use with outlets, restaurants, and entertainment--preferably woven into the lakefront atmosphere.

Couldn't agree more with what Clevecane said. So with that being said, I think Tower City really is the best fit in terms of location and things nearby (TRANSIT, casino, dining, public space, etc.). I think the outlets would be a great fit and bring back some life to that area.

Just to refocus:

 

-- There's no plan for outlets at Tower City.

-- The city seems to be onboard with this strip mall in a box concept. I'm sure potential tax $$$ are clouding their vision.

-- There's nothing from Horizon to make it pretty or have it function with surrounding area. Looking at their existing projects it's unlikely they know how to design/build something like that.

 

Is there some sort of design review? If not, outside of not getting enough tenants, there's really nothing stopping Horizon from building this exurban dreck right next to the RROF.

If there is a draw from this that helps spin out other "styles" of development, I guess I'm for it then.  I have gone back and forth since the news come out.  If there are outlets here that are unique to Cleveland, then maybe it attracts the crowd we need that builds momentum on the other side of 9th.  And being right by a rail stop that connects this to Tower City may not be bad for Tower City also.

Just to refocus:

 

-- There's no plan for outlets at Tower City.

-- The city seems to be onboard with this strip mall in a box concept. I'm sure potential tax $$$ are clouding their vision.

-- There's nothing from Horizon to make it pretty or have it function with surrounding area. Looking at their existing projects it's unlikely they know how to design/build something like that.

 

Is there some sort of design review? If not, outside of not getting enough tenants, there's really nothing stopping Horizon from building this exurban dreck right next to the RROF.

 

The Design Review Committee of the CPC could stop it dead in its tracks if it doesn't modify with a more tasteful look.

Lakefront outlet mall proposed near Rock Hall needs radical improvement to be acceptable (photos)

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

 

Nice article.

 

I think the whole outlet mall needs to go away from that location.  Horrible idea.

 

Believe me I hate that render but I think outlets could be good, but only if the design fits the location. Monolithic structures are anathema to coastal access.

 

Now I've been lots of coastal places where retail adds a great deal of vibrancy.

 

A retail/family entertainment district like Broadway at the Beach or Barefoot Landing (both in Myrtle Beach) would be awesome for Cleveland.

I have been to both of those and they are great.  My concern is during the cold months when there is an icy wind blowing off the frozen or almost frozen lake.  Perhaps a modification of that "look" with colonnades that have windows or panels that open when weather is more hospitable?

 

Interesting idea. They've done something like this with the Mather.

 

 

The writing is clearly on the wall about this property.

 

Looking at their existing outlets, this is Lodi on the Lake:

 

Horizon's Gettysburg highlighted tenants: Aeropostale,  American Eagle, Brooks Brothers, GAP, Justice, Old Navy, PacSun, Tommy Hilfiger and more

Fremont, IN: Aeropostale, Coach, Gap, Tommy Hilfiger, Under Armour and more

Oshkosh, WI: Brooks Brothers, GAP, Old Navy, PacSun, Polo Ralph Lauren, The North Face, Tommy Hilfiger, VF Outlet and more

Oklahoma City: Nike, Coach, Brooks Brothers, Under Armour, Banana Republic, Gap, Chico's, Tommy Hilfiger

 

Here's what they also have to say about their centers:

 

Atlanta: The site is highly visible from Interstate 575 with daily traffic counts by the property that exceeds over 94,000 vehicles.

Oklahoma City: Over 1.4 million people within a 45 minute drive. 112,000 cars cross this intersection daily. Junction of 3 major national interstates i-35, I 40 & I-44. 178 million customers live within a day’s drive

Burlington, WA: Situated on I-5 on the only north-south route between Seattle and Vancouver, Canada. More than 60,000 cars pass the center each day as Canadians and Americans travel between the two metropolitan areas.

El Paso: The Outlet Shoppes at El Paso is easily accessable from I-10 and draws customers from a 300 mile radius including Mexico and New Mexico.

There's no mention of transit in any of their selling points. They like this property because it's close to I-90 and the Shoreway. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking the developer cares about the local foot traffic or will transform this project to fit in with the rest of the neighborhood.

 

I know some of you like shopping but this an exurban project somewhat near a rail station on the edge of downtown. Litt is right.

 

Site is here: http://www.horizongroup.com/map/default.aspx

 

 

 

 

If we are going to get outlets, I would prefer them to be new to the market or more upscale. Those simply do not cut it...you're simply giving people the opportunity to "shop at" a closer Aurora/Lodi.