The writing is clearly on the wall about this property.

 

Looking at their existing outlets, this is Lodi on the Lake:

 

Horizon's Gettysburg highlighted tenants: Aeropostale,  American Eagle, Brooks Brothers, GAP, Justice, Old Navy, PacSun, Tommy Hilfiger and more

Fremont, IN: Aeropostale, Coach, Gap, Tommy Hilfiger, Under Armour and more

Oshkosh, WI: Brooks Brothers, GAP, Old Navy, PacSun, Polo Ralph Lauren, The North Face, Tommy Hilfiger, VF Outlet and more

Oklahoma City: Nike, Coach, Brooks Brothers, Under Armour, Banana Republic, Gap, Chico's, Tommy Hilfiger

 

Here's what they also have to say about their centers:

 

Atlanta: The site is highly visible from Interstate 575 with daily traffic counts by the property that exceeds over 94,000 vehicles.

Oklahoma City: Over 1.4 million people within a 45 minute drive. 112,000 cars cross this intersection daily. Junction of 3 major national interstates i-35, I 40 & I-44. 178 million customers live within a day’s drive

Burlington, WA: Situated on I-5 on the only north-south route between Seattle and Vancouver, Canada. More than 60,000 cars pass the center each day as Canadians and Americans travel between the two metropolitan areas.

El Paso: The Outlet Shoppes at El Paso is easily accessable from I-10 and draws customers from a 300 mile radius including Mexico and New Mexico.

There's no mention of transit in any of their selling points. They like this property because it's close to I-90 and the Shoreway. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking the developer cares about the local foot traffic or will transform this project to fit in with the rest of the neighborhood.

 

I know some of you like shopping but this an exurban project somewhat near a rail station on the edge of downtown. Litt is right.

 

Site is here: http://www.horizongroup.com/map/default.aspx

 

I'm still supportive of the project. I would like the city to push to make sure it's integrated with the developments around it. And I agree with whoever suggested this (I think it was KJP but I could be wrong) that there should be some restaurants/entertainment options along with the shopping so it's not a dead zone at night. But ultimately, this would be great for the city's tax revenue and economy and it is also a way to finally get shoppers around the region to come back downtown.

SubUrbanOhio? :laugh:  :laugh: :laugh:

^ Haha! I think the diversity of viewpoints here is really cool. And I think it illustrates a most crucial time for the future of the Lakefront. It goes back to the question of "What is our waterfront going to be?"

 

Whatever happens, it has to be great. There's no second chance at this in our lifetime. This thing simply has to be done the right way.

If we are going to get outlets, I would prefer them to be new to the market or more upscale. Those simply do not cut it...you're simply giving people the opportunity to "shop at" a closer Aurora/Lodi.

 

The only positive to me: Can a downtown location drive enough traffic away from Lodi/Aurora to shut those sites down and bring this type of retail back to the center? I'm very skeptical this project will do that though. I think there will be three less than 1/2 filled outlet centers.

^ Haha! I think the diversity of viewpoints here is really cool. And I think it illustrates a most crucial time for the future of the Lakefront. It goes back to the question of "What is our waterfront going to be?"

 

Whatever happens, it has to be great. There's no second chance at this in our lifetime. This thing simply has to be done the right way.

 

This project is depressing. Especially when I look at what Ken posted about Pittsburgh and the I-579 cap. I see two different downtowns still going in two different directions.

 

Maybe they are building it to take advantage of the Canadian shopper. If the Canada ferry from Cleveland happens this will be very popular for Canadians to avoid their sales tax.

If we are going to get outlets, I would prefer them to be new to the market or more upscale. Those simply do not cut it...you're simply giving people the opportunity to "shop at" a closer Aurora/Lodi.

 

The only positive to me: Can a downtown location drive enough traffic away from Lodi/Aurora to shut those sites down and bring this type of retail back to the center? I'm very skeptical this project will do that though. I think there will be three less than 1/2 filled outlet centers.

 

I agree.  This is why Tower City and a casino tie-in make the most sense.  If big enough, this could be a driving force in getting Phase II of the casino constructed, along with a massive parking structure to keep the soccer moms happy.....

If we are going to get outlets, I would prefer them to be new to the market or more upscale. Those simply do not cut it...you're simply giving people the opportunity to "shop at" a closer Aurora/Lodi.

 

The only positive to me: Can a downtown location drive enough traffic away from Lodi/Aurora to shut those sites down and bring this type of retail back to the center? I'm very skeptical this project will do that though. I think there will be three less than 1/2 filled outlet centers.

With their standard outlet mall mix of retail...it wouldn't be getting business from my partner or I or, I would venture, the majority of urban dwellers without kids. Without a better retail mix, this is just a suburban outlet mall located downtown catering to suburbanites and visitors. 

This project is depressing. Especially when I look at what Ken posted about Pittsburgh and the I-579 cap. I see two different downtowns still going in two different directions.

 

It has the capability of being very depressing. Absolutely. And I asked if anyone here had any confidence in the City to ensure great architecture and planning...and got crickets. The fact that there are no codified design standards for the Lakefront is ridiculous.

 

But if you have ever been to a vibrant waterfront you see that retail is almost always an integral component. How would you like to see that area developed?

 

 

This project is depressing. Especially when I look at what Ken posted about Pittsburgh and the I-579 cap. I see two different downtowns still going in two different directions.

 

It has the capability of being very depressing. Absolutely. And I asked if anyone here had any confidence in the City to ensure great architecture and planning...and got crickets. The fact that there are no codified design standards for the Lakefront is ridiculous.

 

But if you have ever been to a vibrant waterfront you see that retail is almost always an integral component. How would you like to see that area developed?

 

 

 

Something that isn't an isolated car centric strip mall in box? This isn't what's at, say, the Inner Harbor. Outside of building a Red Robin/Exxon/Kia dealership almost anything is preferable over this. Hell even an Exxon would probably generate more local foot traffic than this project. This isn't urban or even inner suburban.

If we are going to get outlets, I would prefer them to be new to the market or more upscale. Those simply do not cut it...you're simply giving people the opportunity to "shop at" a closer Aurora/Lodi.

 

The only positive to me: Can a downtown location drive enough traffic away from Lodi/Aurora to shut those sites down and bring this type of retail back to the center? I'm very skeptical this project will do that though. I think there will be three less than 1/2 filled outlet centers.

With their standard outlet mall mix of retail...it wouldn't be getting business from my partner or I or, I would venture, the majority of urban dwellers without kids. Without a better retail mix, this is just a suburban outlet mall located downtown catering to suburbanites and visitors.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that. Not everything is going to target everybody. And that's fine. I want the suburbanites money too

If we are going to get outlets, I would prefer them to be new to the market or more upscale. Those simply do not cut it...you're simply giving people the opportunity to "shop at" a closer Aurora/Lodi.

 

The only positive to me: Can a downtown location drive enough traffic away from Lodi/Aurora to shut those sites down and bring this type of retail back to the center? I'm very skeptical this project will do that though. I think there will be three less than 1/2 filled outlet centers.

With their standard outlet mall mix of retail...it wouldn't be getting business from my partner or I or, I would venture, the majority of urban dwellers without kids. Without a better retail mix, this is just a suburban outlet mall located downtown catering to suburbanites and visitors.

 

And there's nothing wrong with that. Not everything is going to target everybody. And that's fine. I want the suburbanites money too

I guess I'm just more selfish...I'm sick of going to Beachwood and/or out of state.

Knowing that there is an active developer looking to make something work on this land and that the property I will suggest is nowhere near ready to start development, I feel something of this nature, based on what Horizon may be looking for, is better suited for the First Energy site at 6800 Marginal

 

Burke Parking Lot = 7 Acres  vs  First Energy = 62 Acres

 

Just a thought

I like the idea of lots of people being on the lakefront.  It will support the restaurants at North Coast harbor year round, and make it more attractive to offices to go down there knowing that amenities are next-door and not up 9th street hill

Here's my concept. A simple yet wide overpass of the Shoreway between the retail complex and the Waterfront Line station. A wider overpass gives a greater sense of security. I would cover the bridge (200 feet long x 30 feet wide) and probably the ramp too (200 feet long, 30 feet wide and a 7.5 percent gradient) but this could be replaced with stairs and a narrow, ADA-compliant ramp with switchbacks next to the Shoreway. If the latter, then the 200-foot-long ramp would be replaced with promenade that's tree-lined, preferably evergreens to shield the weather.

 

Burke-RetailOutlets-RailLink1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Burke-RetailOutlets-RailLink-perspective1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

I like the idea of lots of people being on the lakefront.  It will support the restaurants at North Coast harbor year round, and make it more attractive to offices to go down there knowing that amenities are next-door and not up 9th street hill

 

There will be lots of people to the lakefront. They will be in their cars on Marginal Rd. and backing up the exit onto E. 9th. Nobody is even talking about the added amount of car traffic this project will bring to an area by E. 9th that is slowly aiming to be more pedestrian friendly.

 

Here's my concept. A simple yet wide overpass of the Shoreway between the retail complex and the Waterfront Line station. A wider overpass gives a greater sense of security. I would cover the bridge (200 feet long x 30 feet wide) and probably the ramp too (200 feet long, 30 feet wide and a 7.5 percent gradient) but this could be replaced with stairs and a narrow, ADA-compliant ramp with switchbacks next to the Shoreway. If the latter, then the 200-foot-long ramp would be replaced with promenade that's tree-lined, preferably evergreens to shield the weather.

 

Burke-RetailOutlets-RailLink1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Burke-RetailOutlets-RailLink-perspective1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

I think the only way Horizon funds this is if they find out they don't have enough parking and need additional space at the Muni lots.

I think the only way Horizon funds this is if they find out they don't have enough parking and need additional space at the Muni lots.

 

I wouldn't expect Horizon to fund it. I do expect the city will propose it. There may not be much support for it until a developer shows interest in the Muny lots. And I think a developer will show interest in the Muny lots, regardless of whether this retail development occurs. If this retail development does occur, the pressure for developing the Muny lots will increase. If the Muny lots become the target of developers, this pedestrian linkage will become a more prominent issue.

 

EDIT: I wonder what would cost Horizon less money -- the structured parking in its development or a pedestrian bridge over the Shoreway to the Muny lots?

I don't fault the man for trying to tie RTA into the equation; that's a worthy cause. But after seeing KJP's rendering I'm firmly in favor of putting this thing underground where nobody has to look at it.

If they had an above ground walkway maybe they could have lettering on it that announces their arrival to the lakefront. Depending on the design though it could be tacky.

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

 

Hmm. I was fully for this when it was first announced, but the more I hear about it and see examples of what the developers have done before, I really don't know. I absolutely LOVE shopping, and like someone mentioned up thread I'm selfish and tired of going to Beachwood and out of state or waiting for stuff to arrive from online. But, if this is going to be filled with the same lower end outlet stores of Lodi and Aurora, it won't serve me as a downtown resident and consumer one bit. Bringing in the higher end brands, like Burberry, Armani and Versace - or at least poach the Saks outlet from that mess in Aurora - and it will be something worth this location. If it ends up having the those same stores as their other developments, then I no longer think so.

Hmm. I was fully for this when it was first announced, but the more I hear about it and see examples of what the developers have done before, I really don't know. I absolutely LOVE shopping, and like someone mentioned up thread I'm selfish and tired of going to Beachwood and out of state or waiting for stuff to arrive from online. But, if this is going to be filled with the same lower end outlet stores of Lodi and Aurora, it won't serve me as a downtown resident and consumer one bit. Bringing in the higher end brands, like Burberry, Armani and Versace - or at least poach the Saks outlet from that mess in Aurora - and it will be something worth this location. If it ends up having the those same stores as their other developments, then I no longer think so.

 

I would like high end outlet stores but I honestly think that THAT is more suitable for Tower City. I don't think the outlet mall should be low end but it doesn't have to be high end either. I would rather see high end outlet stores go to Tower City. I want this project to attract not only the downtown shopper but the average shopper

Absolutely cannot believe that anyone who understands the value of that lakefront property would want such an ugly looking outlet mall, which could be off of any major highway anywhere, sitting on our most precious real estate.  I'm all for outlet shopping downtown, but my god, please, don't let this happen on this site - Cleveland must use the downtown lakefront for more unique, innovative, world-class, tourist-friendly, national media-worthy attractions.  If you showed me an "Inner Harbor"-like complex with super cool places to dine and play, combined with some really cool retail, that might be a possibility - but this warehouse would further compromise our ability to continue reshaping a world class waterfront.  This thing is right out the windows from the Hilton - this is a huge mistake in judgement if allowed to happen.  Let's not be so desperate for a new shopping mall downtown that we allow our most beautiful vista to be permanently scarred.  This thing is a disaster.

^^ You hit the nail on the head, IMHO. This project is not urban or even suburban.

 

It's strange to me how some on here want Burke gone yet are willing to accept this right in the shadow of the airport. I guess removing Burke would make a great spot for a giant strip mall anchored by a Wal-Mart Supercenter.

KJP is trying to make this palatable but, with apologies:

 

^^LOL for real!

 

I'm down with KJPs idea for the structure, but it should be mixed use offices, restaurant and maybe even residential.  Burke is a development tool waiting to happen--it's too bad our city's airports are run by bureaucrats with no vision. 

I like "MikeHuncho"'s idea in response to Steven Litt's July 26 article on Cleveland.com.....imagine something like the National Harbor

on the Potomac River

  https://www.nationalharbor.com/ 

 

 

I think Matches wins this thread.

^^LOL for real!

 

I'm down with KJPs idea for the structure, but it should be mixed use offices, restaurant and maybe even residential.  Burke is a development tool waiting to happen--it's too bad our city's airports are run by bureaucrats with no vision.

 

Residential is not going to happen with this development. That's not what they do. I do agree that there should be restaurants there to make sure it's not a complete dead zone at night

And for the record I have no issue with pushing back to make the design more integrated with the area around it. No problem. But the hyperbole being indulged about this project is amazing to me. This would be a boon for the city in terms of taxes, it will virtually guarantee a lot of people coming into the city and its one of the only things you could do to get suburban shoppers to shop in the city again. it doesn't matter that they may not be the particular stores that you would prefer or that you're just against the idea. What matters is that if done correctly, this could be huge for the city. And it enhances the current and planned developments around it as well. So let's fight to make it better, as we should with anything. But some folks need to stop acting as if it's the worst idea they've ever heard just because you aren't the target market. Just my 2 ¢

Lakefront or not, there's only so much we can do with land right by an airport.  And I'm not sure we need an "Inner Harbor" development over here when we're already doing that with FEB.  Besides, I think in our case the river provides a better waterfront for that sort of thing.  This plan has a number of issues and IMO it needs to include a good WFL connection.  But overall it's a plan I'm happy to see.

I think this development can help boost housing development and population growth in the core city. But it needs better non-car access to do that

As Horizon is an out-of-town developer and probably doesn't know this thread exists, someone should politely inform them (and CPC and Mayor's office) so they can see these wonderful ideas :)

As Horizon is an out-of-town developer and probably doesn't know this thread exists, someone should politely inform them (and CPC and Mayor's office) so they can see these wonderful ideas :)

Fred Geis the developer who has an option on the land and who is pushing this project, is a local who also might wish to review this website and thread, as well..

Are the developers that are behind the Downtown outlet mall the same developers that were behind the dead Garfield Hts Transportation Blvd proposal.  http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/garfield-heights-outlet-mall-developer-changes-plans-new-plan-to-be-put-in-place

No, Horizon is the developers for the downtown proposal. Craig Realty is working the develop the Garfield site

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160814/VOICES04/308149999/crains-editorial-cartoon-aug-15-2016

 

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs.

Welcome, RE Developer In Training! Keep posting your ideas!

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs.

 

Yes “Developer in Training” I would have thought that would have been obvious to all to everyone on here, and at least a few at the city level (accept for the usual clueless officials that should know better).  But I forget that not everybody here is an urban planner, and doesn’t necessarily realize the ramifications of such bad decisions, even after years of examples which are addressed at great length on these very pages.

 

I give inlovewithCLE a pass as I know he is passionate about the city.  I just don’t agree that the concept as planned should have any future, even a better designed structure.  I would be all ears if it was proposed as part of a larger concept/development as many have shown examples of, but we shouldn't be accepting a “anything is better than nothing” approach. 

 

The city really should play a leading role in fostering and guiding development when it comes to prime spots and interested parties.  I just don’t think, under the current administration that they have that capability or vision.     

 

 

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

 

The question is: as long as Burke continues to operate, how prime is this real estate since it is adjacent to Burke?  Now if Burke were to close/relocate, this land's value skyrockets.

 

We were up in Bar 32 at the Hilton, with it's stunning lakes-shore views, for nearly 2 hours the other evening and not one single plane took off or land at Burke.  I know many people, including on the UO board, claim how essential Burke is to Cleveland esp downtown, but I just don't see it. 

Forget the lakefront, I would not want the conceptual presented above next to a landfill.

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

 

The question is: as long as Burke continues to operate, how prime is this real estate since it is adjacent to Burke?  Now if Burke were to close/relocate, this land's value skyrockets.

 

We were up in Bar 32 at the Hilton, with it's stunning lakes-shore views, for nearly 2 hours the other evening and not one single plane took off or land at Burke.  I know many people, including on the UO board, claim how essential Burke is to Cleveland esp downtown, but I just don't see it. 

When were you there? I can tell you (living in Bratenahl) I see planes quite frequently from my house as well as when driving along the Shoreway. Is it something the average Joe is using? Absolutely not but it is definitely a selling point for Cleveland.

What time of day were you observing Burke? 

Even at Hopkins, Cleveland's primary airport, the last scheduled commercial flight departs at 9:35pm on weekdays.

After that it's all FEDEX, UPS, Freight traffic - which doesn't fly out of Burke

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

 

Agreed.  Can you complete your training and convince Dan Gilbert to partner with this guy to build the outlets and Phase 2 of the casino on the riverfront? 

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

 

The question is: as long as Burke continues to operate, how prime is this real estate since it is adjacent to Burke?  Now if Burke were to close/relocate, this land's value skyrockets.

 

We were up in Bar 32 at the Hilton, with it's stunning lakes-shore views, for nearly 2 hours the other evening and not one single plane took off or land at Burke.  I know many people, including on the UO board, claim how essential Burke is to Cleveland esp downtown, but I just don't see it. 

When were you there? I can tell you (living in Bratenahl) I see planes quite frequently from my house as well as when driving along the Shoreway. Is it something the average Joe is using? Absolutely not but it is definitely a selling point for Cleveland.

 

A week ago Sunday.  Bar 32 was full...

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

 

The question is: as long as Burke continues to operate, how prime is this real estate since it is adjacent to Burke?  Now if Burke were to close/relocate, this land's value skyrockets.

 

We were up in Bar 32 at the Hilton, with it's stunning lakes-shore views, for nearly 2 hours the other evening and not one single plane took off or land at Burke.  I know many people, including on the UO board, claim how essential Burke is to Cleveland esp downtown, but I just don't see it. 

When were you there? I can tell you (living in Bratenahl) I see planes quite frequently from my house as well as when driving along the Shoreway. Is it something the average Joe is using? Absolutely not but it is definitely a selling point for Cleveland.

 

A week ago Sunday.  Bar 32 was full...

 

Sundays are quiet at BKL unless there is a major event in town, just like the rest of downtown.    Much of the business is corporate and air taxi, plus rotary wing operations for the Cleveland Clinic, etc. 

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs.

 

Yes “Developer in Training” I would have thought that would have been obvious to all to everyone on here, and at least a few at the city level (accept for the usual clueless officials that should know better).  But I forget that not everybody here is an urban planner, and doesn’t necessarily realize the ramifications of such bad decisions, even after years of examples which are addressed at great length on these very pages.

 

I give inlovewithCLE a pass as I know he is passionate about the city.  I just don’t agree that the concept as planned should have any future, even a better designed structure.  I would be all ears if it was proposed as part of a larger concept/development as many have shown examples of, but we shouldn't be accepting a “anything is better than nothing” approach. 

 

The city really should play a leading role in fostering and guiding development when it comes to prime spots and interested parties.  I just don’t think, under the current administration that they have that capability or vision.   

 

That's fine. We just fundamentally disagree on this issue (which is ok). I've said my philosophy many times on the pages of UO so I won't repeat it here. But although I agree the design could be better, I definitely think this should happen. For a whole host of reasons that, again, I've articulated before and won't repeat here

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs.

 

I am with you in regards to it being located in the city.  It seems that someone is going to build an outlet mall somewhere in the Cleveland area so it might as well be in the city preferably downtown. Bring the taxes / jobs / visitors downtown  in hope that they will stay and visit other venues in the city.  These are preliminary renderings let's see what comes next.  Any other development around BKL is probably years away.  If they can be smart about it and tie it in to the WFL somehow and create a connection to NCH  I think we have to consider it.

There is no way the city should allow for this enclosed, warehouse looking mall on some of the best real estate in the Midwest especially when you consider both the Galleria and the Avenue have trouble finding enough discount stores to fill their spaces.

 

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs.

 

I am with you in regards to it being located in the city.  It seems that someone is going to build an outlet mall somewhere in the Cleveland area so it might as well be in the city preferably downtown. Bring the taxes / jobs / visitors downtown  in hope that they will stay and visit other venues in the city.  These are preliminary renderings let's see what comes next.  Any other development around BKL is probably years away.  If they can be smart about it and tie it in to the WFL somehow and create a connection to NCH  I think we have to consider it.

 

How would you feel about these outlets on the Public Square Jacobs lot and the adjacent parking lot?