How are Tower City and the Galleria working out?

Yet building Lodi near downtown will now work.

 

This structure will be totally catered to suburbanites driving in and out. This will not be a tourist destination for people from other cities. Attractions built around it will be Burger Kings and gas stations.

 

You guys are fooling yourselves into thinking this will be anything urban.

 

One weird thing though, whenever I travel with friends at some point in the trip they almost always gravitate toward recognizable retail. I think this can work. But at the same time the city can not allow a totally cut-off, traffic snarling exurban design. Demand a good building. And for the love of God give people the option to take RTA or park somewhere else downtown and walk there.

 

Look, I'm not the "sheltered suburbanite" here.... but outlet malls in dense, urban areas - at least the ones I've been to in NY and Michigan City, IN have been completely run-down within a year of opening.

 

I know this is a difficult issue to discuss due to the racial implications, but:

 

A) An outlet mall isn't the best  we can do.

 

B) This likely won't attract the best crowds to the lakefront.

The first thing I think of when I go to Manhattan: Where’s the outlet mall?  :)

How are Tower City and the Galleria working out? Yet building Lodi near downtown will now work.

 

This structure will be totally catered to suburbanites driving in and out. This will not be a tourist destination for people from other cities. Attractions built around it will be Burger Kings and gas stations.

 

Some of you are fooling yourselves into thinking this will be anything urban or attractive. This is a dressed up WalMart strip center. It shouldn’t get a pass because it will create low-paying jobs.

 

 

 

 

No one is saying it should get a pass. What I'm saying is that, with our current population demographics and transportation choices, this is what/where is going to get built in the core city. It's why Steelyard Commons got built where it is and in the land use form intended.

 

The first thing I think of when I go to Manhattan: Where’s the outlet mall?  :)

 

How does Manhattan even come into a conversation about Cleveland, Ohio retail development? One is one of the top cities of the world. The other is the 51st largest city in America with the second worst poverty rates in the nation. This is the best retail Cleveland can get TODAY. And yes, it probably will be a dump in a couple of years. Welcome to reality.

I would much rather see Euclid Ave storefronts turned back into a retail hub than build this mall that has no connectivity to the centralized, residential population growth in downtown.

 

When Cleveland has a core city (downtown+Tremont+Asiatown+Ohio City) population of 100,000 and a robust transit system, then that's a possibility. The only way downtown/near downtown gets a significant, unique retail presence today is if it's next to the highway system in which hundreds of thousands of suburbanites (ie: the folks that have purchasing power) can get to by car in less time than it takes to get to Aurora Farms or Lodi. AND they can park for free.

 

Is that what I want? Of course not. I want Euclid Avenue to be the shopping mecca it once was. But that city went away 50 years ago. Today, if we can provide unique retail goods within 20 minutes of most of Cuyahoga County AND also be accessible by transit so inner city residents can shop too AND provide jobs to inner city residents, then it's the best possible outcome given the demographics and transportation services of today.

 

It’s really that simple, folks. Everything KJP just said is #facts. Is it ideal? No. In an ideal situation, the city wouldn’t have to use a gimmick like an outlet mall to get people to shop in Cleveland. But we don’t live in an ideal situation. We live in reality. And the reality is this is the EXACT type of thing that would convince suburbanites to shop outside of the many retail centers that are close to home. And it’s the only brick and mortar shopping that’s actually growing (https://www.wsj.com/articles/surprise-outlet-malls-are-hot-1490094007).

 

The fact is it would be huge for the city to get something like this. It could be a regional draw, a draw for people with the purchasing power, for people who don’t really care about the things most of us here care about. It’s a game changer. That’s why I support it. And it’s also the best way to make due with the less than ideal retail situation that the city finds itself in. AND not to mention all of the jobs for inner city residents (which few people ever care to mention or talk about around here). Is it great? No. Is it cheesy? Kinda. But it’s ideal considering the REALITY of what we’re dealing with

Sorry KJP, I respect and agree with much of what you post but in this regard you are way off base.

The first thing I think of when I go to Manhattan: Where’s the outlet mall?  :)

If we had the population of Manhattan we wouldn’t be talking about this

I get that it may be a draw. But you literally could do this on Euclid Ave and Huron and brand it as a cheesy "Miracle Mile." J. Crew outlet, Saks off Fifth, Nike, Under Armour, Bath and Body Works, Polo, along with Geigers and Heinens would be a great draw for theoretically the same purpose. We will have filled in the gaps in downtown street level retail and give a better chance of success to any retail at Lumen.

 

However, in my situation as opposed to the mall, we wouldn't be sacrificing space for a temporary fix. In 20 years if that mall goes under, we will be left with a MASSIVE, vacant structure on our lakefront. If these shops don't take off on Euclid, we're right back to where we are now.

Sorry KJP, I respect and agree with much of what you post but in this regard you are way off base.

 

Sorry. Cleveland is a retail desert for a reason. It's not a conspiracy by retailers against us. It's because the demographics don't work for anything except for something that could be a regional draw. And the only way to draw from the region into downtown/near downtown is by highway.

The first thing I think of when I go to Manhattan: Where’s the outlet mall?  :)

If we had the population of Manhattan we wouldn’t be talking about this

 

So basically it is you position that we have to accept trash from a low end developer on our lakefront because we are who we are.  I am sick of cities agreeing to uninspired development just because, thank god, somebody is actually willing to build something in our town.

I am fine with an outlet shopping experience Downtown.  I  just want it to have good urban form.  That is all I ask.

Curious. If the outlets looked more like this, what I'd call waterfront architecture, would that change anyones mind?

Sorry KJP, I respect and agree with much of what you post but in this regard you are way off base.

 

Sorry. Cleveland is a retail desert for a reason. It's not a conspiracy by retailers against us. It's because the demographics don't work for anything except for something that could be a regional draw. And the only way to draw from the region into downtown/near downtown is by highway.

 

I respect your opinion on these matters and realize that you probably know more than me. But I really think you're wrong here - not with regards to the highway, but with regards to the draw.

The first thing I think of when I go to Manhattan: Where’s the outlet mall?  :)

If we had the population of Manhattan we wouldn’t be talking about this

 

So basically it is you position that we have to accept trash from a low end developer on our lakefront because we are who we are.  I am sick of cities agreeing to uninspired development just because, thank god, somebody is actually willing to build something in our town.

 

If you’re not willing to deal with the realities of what we live in, then I don’t know what to say. Agree to disagree

The first thing I think of when I go to Manhattan: Where’s the outlet mall?  :)

If we had the population of Manhattan we wouldn’t be talking about this

 

So basically it is you position that we have to accept trash from a low end developer on our lakefront because we are who we are.  I am sick of cities agreeing to uninspired development just because, thank god, somebody is actually willing to build something in our town.

 

If you’re not willing to deal with the realities of what we live in, then I don’t know what to say. Agree to disagree

 

Ten years ago, the realities of Ohio City were much different than what they are now....

 

Forty years ago, the reality of Playhouse Square were STARKLY different than they are now...

Horizon doesn’t build high-end or urban stuff. Go look at their portfolio. They build Lodi.

 

As for retail, if this were a strip mall with Wal-Mart as an anchor I think attitudes for some would be different. Just saying.

 

Ten years ago, the realities of Ohio City were much different than what they are now....

 

Forty years ago, the reality of Playhouse Square were STARKLY different than they are now...

 

Those things increased the population within 30 miles of this outlet mall (the stated draw area) by what... 0.001 percent?

 

Fact is, the zoning at this site is General Industry, meaning that any commercial use that doesn't involve manufacturing by heat/combustion can be built here. The city can't stop this from being built here. At best, it could push the design to be more attractive. And while the waterfront pictures above are nice, this isn't going to be on the water. It's going to be between an airport, a highway and a railroad line. This business is going to spend as little as possible to get a quick return on its investment. Anything we get that is more than a window-less warehouse will be a pleasant surprise to me.

 

EDIT: it seems that some of you think I want this development. I don't. But my opinion and yours doesn't matter. The zoning allows for this so it cannot be stopped even if you're prepared to handcuff yourself to a bulldozer. The best that we can hope for is to put some nice glitter and lipstick on this pig and go back to work trying to build the core city's population and employment base (which, BTW, this project might actually help if we apply enough lipstick to it by extending the Waterfront Line another 3,000 feet to it).

^Even their marketing blurb make clear they are looking for serious subsidies, so I doubt there's any way this gets built without some serious city buy-in.

It’s not on the lake, it’s not blocking anyone’s view of anything and it’s bringing money into the city/ county.

It’s not what I’d prefer, but it isn’t prime land and I’m ok with it.

^Even their marketing blurb make clear they are looking for serious subsidies, so I doubt there's any way this gets built without some serious city buy-in.

 

They could probably get a good chunk of subsidies through the new Opportunity Zone and even the proposed transformational tax credit. Lest we forget the city provided assistance (I don't remember which kinds) to Steelyard Commons, even though it included a controversial Wal Mart. There may be more non-city subsidies available today.

A 2016 reminder. Is this the design we'll still get?

Meh..surface parking and low-paying jobs. The past, present and future of Cleveland. I won’t join that side and sink that low.

^Now that I see Sam Allard is against it I am wholly for it. This dude's incessant whining can make me take the most irrational positions lol

^Now that I see Sam Allard is against it I am wholly for it. This dude's incessant whining can make me take the most irrational positions lol

 

I zapped the article since it's already posted. But yeah, that guys loves a good complaint!

^Now that I see Sam Allard is against it I am wholly for it. This dude's incessant whining can make me take the most irrational positions lol

 

I zapped the article since it's already posted. But yeah, that guys loves a good complaint!

 

When buses had to go around Public Square for those few months you would have thought Frank Jackson was rounding up civilians and having them waterboarded.

Meh..surface parking and low-paying jobs. The past, present and future of Cleveland. I won’t join that side and sink that low.

 

I hate this attitude. A “low paying job” means a hell of a lot to someone without a job, and there are a lot of those in the city of Cleveland

Meh..surface parking and low-paying jobs. The past, present and future of Cleveland. I won’t join that side and sink that low.

 

I hate this attitude. A “low paying job” means a hell of a lot to someone without a job, and there are a lot of those in the city of Cleveland

 

Now imagine them being able to get off the health line and walk right into their new job on Euclid.

More low-paying retail jobs aren’t going to help anyone. Brick and mortar retail is dying including outlet malls. Horizon even admits this partly.

 

How about working to attract a light industrial company with tax incentives and getting them to give people skills for a lifetime carrer at that spot since it’s not really on the lakefront. Sorry for setting my standards that high.

More low-paying retail jobs aren’t going to help anyone. Brick and mortar retail is dying including outlet malls. Horizon even admits this partly.

 

How about working to attract a light industrial company and getting them to give people skills for a lifetime carrer. Sorry for setting my standards that high.

 

“Low paying retail jobs” help people who don’t have a job. I’m from the hood and I know a lot of people who would LOVE to have one of those jobs you sneer and turn your nose up to. And you put it as a black/white either/or proposition. It’s both. Of course we need to give people skills for a lifetime career. But what you’re basically saying is “stay unemployed until we can get you into a job that I think is ideal for you” instead of meeting the immediate need of a job right now. That’s ridiculous to me. Sorry, but it is. I think about all the people who would be hurt by your way of thinking on this, turning up your nose at “low paying retail jobs”.

Meh..surface parking and low-paying jobs. The past, present and future of Cleveland. I won’t join that side and sink that low.

 

I hate this attitude. A “low paying job” means a hell of a lot to someone without a job, and there are a lot of those in the city of Cleveland

 

Now imagine them being able to get off the health line and walk right into their new job on Euclid.

 

That would certainly be better, but nobody is proposing that for Euclid.  This thing is the thing that is before the City.  The City doesn't get to choose between an actual proposal and a fantasy.  It's thumbs up or thumbs down on what is before it.  With maybe some conditions if we're lucky.

Isn't this City owned land KJP? If so it gives them a heavy hand in what is proposed from a zoning and design standpoint. They don't have the "right" to build it until they own it. If the City were truly against this development it wouldn't happen.

I get not wanting to make perfect the enemy of the good.... But I think we're still a far way off from "good" with this proposal

Oh do we mean all those other companies/jobs clamoring to come to Cleveland's urban core? And clothing retail is still viable as a bricks/mortar business. People want to try on clothes before they buy them.

 

BTW. I've interviewed inner city residents who ride three buses and take more than an hour to reach jobs at stores and fast-food restaurants out in North Olmsted and Westlake. I'm sure these retail jobs will have lines of people waiting to get them.

Retail is dying and Cleveland is oversaturated with these jobs as it is so how long can a third regional outlet mall last? These are low-paying jobs with not much in benefits and limited carrer paths. The city needs to work harder to score better jobs. Light industrial is booming nationally right now. The city proper should be riding this wave even if it takes tax breaks. Regular outlet malls are the past. Premium outlets are doing ok for now but Horizon doesn’t do that variety.

are outlet malls really a thing of the past? Scheduled to open in Staten Island near the St. George ferry terminal this fall, expected to be yuuuge--

 

http://www.empireoutletsnyc.com/

 

^With all due respect, I've been to Staten Island... it's not what I aspire for my hometown

^With all due respect, I've been to Staten Island... it's not what I aspire for my hometown

 

okay, I haven't been following this discussion really closely, but my point was that something like this could become a real tourist attraction that could bring lots of people downtown who otherwise wouldn't think of going there. Isn't that the goal? And by the way, what's wrong with Staten Island?  https://www.silive.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2015/04/11_things_you_dont_say_to_someone_from_staten_island.html

It’s  sad  that the attitude that “this is the best retail that we can get because we’re only the 51st largest city” exists with some of our cities’ boosters.  That philosophy should not be the basis for supporting a less than desireable outlet mall on our lakefront property. i agree, obviously, Cleveland can’t attract  the same retail as Manhattan- let alone any one of a dozen of the largest US cities - but  why we do we have to settle for a typical suburban style outlet mall on the lakefront - our city’s most precious natural resource ?  This is the lakefront of a city that is successfully transforming itself and working to become a world-class  tourist destination. There should be connectedness between the wonderful attractions such as the Rock Hall and Science Center with  options for families/kids to do right nearby.  An ”Inner Harbor”  type debelopment that included shopping and family friendly places would be amazing  - but an outlet mall with nothing special about it?  Why would we place literally next to the Rock Hall ?  Most shoppers - would be driving in and right back out - and unless this outlet is going to have the high-end big retail attractions that pull in richer suburban clients- we’ll, imagine the quality of the clientele at this place - Probably not a crowd with lots of money to spend Downtown. If we want a special city for us and our kids and their kids - let’s keep  our expectations high and build accordingly

The thing, as has already been noted, is that this site is not really on the lakefront in any meaningful since.  It's separated by highways and an airport from the lakefront.  I'm a big fan of using the ruler function on Google Earth.  It's .3 miles as the crow flies to the lakefront from the closest point of the project.  The walk from the Rock Hall would be .6 miles.

 

The site just isn't that prime.  That doesn't mean the outlet mall is really a great idea for the city, but we need to have an honest discussion about the nature and value of the land it is going on, and what the other realistic options are.

AmrapinVA and KJP have been given limited suspensions (can view but not post) to simmer down.

 

If you *think* your post directed personally at another forumer should be taken to private messaging, you're probably right.

If a project needs subsidies to be viable, the city can absolutely shape it. If the project could be built without subsidy, and the developer wasn't requesting a zone change or variance, then yes, there wouldn't be much that could be done to stop it.  "There is no question that the site will be more costly to develop than our typical site and will thus require some type of public-private partnership." Says it right in the announcement.

 

I'm really surprised to see such defeatist outlooks here. This is not the only kind of retail Cleveland can draw. Just look at your in-state neighbors, and the success they have had at luring retail back to core neighborhoods. OTR 10 years ago was one of the worst, poorest, most crime riddled ghettos in the country. When the redevelopment there started, I don't think anyone imagined that one day chains like Warby Parker and Bonobos would be opening stores on Vine St. in less than a decade. Commercial storefronts were first filled with restaurants and small, local retail. These initial concepts proved successful, and momentum started to build. Chain retail is struggling, but the small store, interesting location driven retail seems to be picking up steam in urban locations. You're not going to magically convince Victoria Secret and Banana Republic to open stores downtown. Those days are probably in the past, outside of the most premier markets. But there are a lot of retailers that do look for urban neighborhoods, and locations that reinforce their brand. See Anthropologie opening in the Short North as a prime example.

 

Claiming that you have to accept a presumable eye sore of an outlet mall on lakefront/downtown property because the city is down on its luck or whatever is really sad, and shows a total lack of vision. This will not be something that will lead more people to discover the charms of Cleveland's urban neighborhoods. People will drive in and drive out. Jobs will be created, yes, but that in itself is not a reason to support the project. A landfill also produces jobs. Should the city turn this property into one of those? How about a scrap yard? If this property is really not favorable to exciting development, why not pursue a light industrial user for this site? Warehouse jobs are booming all across the country right now, and many of those jobs not only pay better than retail, but they offer opportunities for people to get training and experience that they could use in careers for the rest of their lives. Part-time jobs at the Bath and Body Works outlet are not going to lift anyone out of poverty.  I just think Cleveland could do a lot better than this proposal. Focusing on retail in actual neighborhood centers would be much more productive than chasing outlet malls and the like. Strong business districts support residential development by giving neighborhoods amenities and greater senses of place. This project will achieve none of that.

I would much rather see Euclid Ave storefronts turned back into a retail hub than build this mall that has no connectivity to the centralized, residential population growth in downtown.

 

When Cleveland has a core city (downtown+Tremont+Asiatown+Ohio City) population of 100,000 and a robust transit system, then that's a possibility. The only way downtown/near downtown gets a significant, unique retail presence today is if it's next to the highway system in which hundreds of thousands of suburbanites (ie: the folks that have purchasing power) can get to by car in less time than it takes to get to Aurora Farms or Lodi. AND they can park for free.

 

Is that what I want? Of course not. I want Euclid Avenue to be the shopping mecca it once was. But that city went away 50 years ago. Today, if we can provide unique retail goods within 20 minutes of most of Cuyahoga County AND also be accessible by transit so inner city residents can shop too AND provide jobs to inner city residents, then it's the best possible outcome given the demographics and transportation services of today.

 

It’s really that simple, folks. Everything KJP just said is #facts. Is it ideal? No. In an ideal situation, the city wouldn’t have to use a gimmick like an outlet mall to get people to shop in Cleveland. But we don’t live in an ideal situation. We live in reality. And the reality is this is the EXACT type of thing that would convince suburbanites to shop outside of the many retail centers that are close to home. And it’s the only brick and mortar shopping that’s actually growing (https://www.wsj.com/articles/surprise-outlet-malls-are-hot-1490094007).

 

The fact is it would be huge for the city to get something like this. It could be a regional draw, a draw for people with the purchasing power, for people who don’t really care about the things most of us here care about. It’s a game changer. That’s why I support it. And it’s also the best way to make due with the less than ideal retail situation that the city finds itself in. AND not to mention all of the jobs for inner city residents (which few people ever care to mention or talk about around here). Is it great? No. Is it cheesy? Kinda. But it’s ideal considering the REALITY of what we’re dealing with

 

Im middle of the road here - outlet malls, when designed right, can be a pleasant pedestrian experience. Take Assembly Row in Somerville, MA for example - it's a great blend of mixed use replete with parking, outlet stores, restaurants, apartments, a movie theater, patios, and a brand spanking new transit stop off the orange line. City leaders, including the RTA leadership, should take note of these types of precedents and demand a high quality development that can achieve both goals (i.e. mix of urban and suburbia). It can be done.

I was mainly against this thinking that maybe too much of the muni lot was going to be taken up for this project. Since it looks like the bulk of the usable muni lot will stay as is, the only other thought would be for waterline expansion which likely won’t happen anytime soon.  Since I don’t see that land really providing much other use, sandwiched in between rail and highway , why not some retail outlet.

  Looking at it from a jobs standpoint, there are a whole lot of teenagers that need jobs. Also college students need part time jobs. There also need to be managers. This will probably not be primary shopping for Clevelanders. Just like if one goes down to Myrtle Beach there are shopping complexes full of tshirt stores and kitschy things. I would think 1/3 of business would be I-90 drivers passing through, another third would be people stopping in Cleveland going to attractions and a third people that work downtown and live in the east side suburbs or vice versa.

 

^^This is not a high quality project.  Have you reviewed the developers credentials, its other projects and its incredibly piss ass conceptuals?

 

Second, northeast Ohio is already over retailed.

 

Go ahead and build it some where else...it does not belong on the lakefront, prime lakefront land or not.  Here is a thought.  Garfield Hts at Transportation Blvd.  They could use another wind sweep development at that prime highway location.

Outlet shopping is still very popular with a large segment of the population. I know many people who make day trips out to Aurora or Lodi - which can be quite a drive. Alot of folks even go on day trips to outlet malls like Grove City, roughly 100 miles away. As many have noted, this isn't going to be much different than those. Why not have that money going into the city and Cuyahoga County instead of to the exurbs and further? People will drive here from further away than the immediate area to shop, and some of those people will spend the night downtown and turn it into a weekend doing other things downtown. Just like with Steelyard Commons, this type of money will be spent, why not have it spent here?

 

Also, while we don't know for certain where the front entrance will be in relation to the South Harbor Station (maybe 2000ft? Deadman's Curve is only 4100) it won't be terribly far, certainly not in the summer. That opens this up to workers and patrons who are in need of transit accessible jobs/shopping. I think pushing to have an entrance as close as possible would be a reasonable fight. This may even boost demand enough that down the line the Waterfront can be expanded to reach even closer.

I am fine with an outlet shopping experience Downtown.  I  just want it to have good urban form.  That is all I ask.

 

I agree.  And it should go in Tower City.  Outlet malls are often based in or around casinos.  It makes sense in our already existing downtown mall.

Wheres the line of bidders who have been forming a queue to buy this land prior to this?

 

Outlet malls are different to run of the mill retail, they're a destination and will attract people from the suburbs looking for a bargain as opposed to driving to places like Aurora Farms or Lodi. They are not the same as conventional malls because you don't require people to have the same disposal income when shopping at discount off shots.

 

I travel to New Orleans regularly and they have a booming outlet mall downtown, funnily enough on the riverwalk. Its not the discount stores that are struggling, its their parent companies and their main stores. Nordstrom is a perfect example of that.

 

My main concern would be the design of the property as I have absolutely no doubt this will be built on the cheap, but yet I also feel that any residential or commercial property would also be cheap identikit box design crap. At the moment I struggle to see a future for Tower City in retail. Its too reliant on traditional retailers.

Maybe that 80,000 sf of retail planned for the May Co. building can be used for something like this. Next to rail, directly across from the Healthline stop and diagonal from public square.

The New Orleans riverwalk outlet appears to have paid parking.

 

I highly doubt that would fly here at this point.

 

I dream that the muny lot land will one day properly be developed around the WFL, however the further east you go on those lots, the less desirable the land is as the views shift from harbor recreational uses to Burke's expanse of grass and runways. 

 

I know one big idea is to shift the shoreway south at the old power plant land, but I've often wondered about a WFL extension running along S Marginal out that way. It would be about a 3 mile extension.

I've always thought the NOLA outlet mall serves as a nice counterbalance to the French Quarter, which is a very short walk away. Plus it's right by the streetcar that takes you to Magazine Street, Garden District, Tulane/Loyola, and other tourist attractions.

 

But outlet malls need parking. No way can hotelled tourists support them alone.

Sorry for being a jerk last week. I stand by what I believe about this project, but not by how I shared it. There is a reason why I was so rude (which had nothing to do with anyone at UO), but there is no excuse.