July 30, 20186 yr Sorry for being a jerk last week. I stand by what I believe about this project, but not by how I shared it. There is a reason why I was so rude (which had nothing to do with anyone at UO), but there is no excuse. No worries man, at the end of the day... an outlet mall is an outlet mall. Not going to make any of us rich or cost any of us our livelihoods.
July 31, 20186 yr LOL! Why on earth would you have a balcony facing directly at the highway... Also the site plan made it seem like it was going to be built over 90. Although that is true to a certain extent, If the outlet mall was built in such a fashion, the mall would overlap the highway to a certain extent, and the balcony would be a nice green space to watch and enjoy the lake. NOT THE HIGHWAY, LOL! Sorry if I'm delayed, but I haven't been active
July 31, 20186 yr Could be an engineering issue, could be addressing concerns with the winds and lake effect conditions, plus the lake gets awfully hard to see 8-10 hours of the day depending on the month. Also, highway canyon-style buildings have interesting views with lots of constant lights and activities. Of course I would prefer balconies with water views.
August 19, 20186 yr Great scene captured by a friend on the Goodtime III yesterday in Cleveland, including the Harbor Verandas apartments wrapping up construction at North Coast Harbor. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 19, 20186 yr Great pic. Less than 30 years ago everything from the apartment building to the stadium was a big gravel parking lot. It takes a while but things do progress in town.
August 19, 20186 yr Getting better! Nice view and hope we find out soon was is proposed for the space between the RRHOF and the Science Center. Unfortunately all I can focus on is the still unfinished Federal Building....
August 30, 20186 yr Very curious as to why this is being requested. Is someone (Developer? Port? Longshoremen? Corps of Engineers?) requesting this as a verification that the docks north of First Energy Stadium are no longer needed for maritime use and can be redeveloped or is someone pushing this to preclude non-maritime development? http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2018/09072018/index.php Ordinance No. 1032-18(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into one or more contracts with the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority to provide technical assistance and to procure a comprehensive maritime infrastructure assessment of the City-owned properties commonly known as Docks 28b, 30, 32 and the North Coast Harbor. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 31, 20186 yr I'm with you mrclifton88 on the Federal Bldg. I can't believe it was left unfinished. There must be one hell of a story behind that...government incompetence, funding issues, structural problems?? I'm a Democrat but that project could serve as a metaphor for why Repubs think the private sector is the best method for getting things done. Do we have to live with this unfinished thing? And why is there total silence on it? Weird and sad.
September 3, 20186 yr tbh it adds quite a bit of history if you think about it. If they finished it you wouldn't really be complaining about it would you? It's also a great discussion for politics if you would.
September 3, 20186 yr Yeah, my politics comment was really an aside - a way to answer my own frustration on the problem. And believe me, I would much rather have the project complete than complain about it. I asked Michelle Jarboe about it 6 months ago and she told me she would look into it and since then,she has no answer. That's odd, don't you think? As you look up to our skyline from the lakefront the building is in a relatively high profile position. At this point, to sit there incomplete is bad enough but the reason it's incomplete is THE real curiosity for me.
September 3, 20186 yr I'm with you mrclifton88 on the Federal Bldg. I can't believe it was left unfinished. There must be one hell of a story behind that... Really? The GSA just walked away from it? In the sheathing's present state does it deliver any benefits at all? Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
September 3, 20186 yr There's something going on with Cumberland's lakefront development and you guys want to complain about the latest in a long history of slow-moving, over-budget GSA projects? I realize it's a story but it's not the big story. C'mon, someone here can answer why Port Control & the Port Authority are undertaking this study. What's going on? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 3, 20186 yr It's the building on 9th and Lakeside. The old glass skin was supposed to be covered by a new glass skin from top to bottom. The south and west side was completed but the east and north are not. You can see part of the incomplete area in the picture above. And KJP I realize that in the scheme of all things Cleveland this is small potatoes. Compared to much of the US we're at best in a holding pattern but my comments were about this one project and not the bigger picture. Like many on this site I tune in each day to pick up (any) news on development all the while knowing that our little celebrations are trivial when compared to growing cities. I recently took Amtrak and passed through Austin Tx. I counted 9 cranes downtown just from my window. Ouch! So yeah, I wondered about one little unfinished project all the while knowing how ridiculous it is in the grand scheme of things. But it's all I got. What can I say?
September 3, 20186 yr Guys there is a thread for the Federal Building, use it. https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,25302.msg537778.html#msg537778
September 3, 20186 yr It's the building on 9th and Lakeside. The old glass skin was supposed to be covered by a new glass skin from top to bottom. The south and west side was completed but the east and north are not. You can see part of the incomplete area in the picture above. Thanks, never noticed... I'll check it out this week.
September 3, 20186 yr Cadmen, There are lots of projects to track in Cleveland, not just downtown. BTW, there must be a discount on tower cranes in some cities because I'm amazed that building projects as small as 10 stories get tower cranes. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 4, 20186 yr There's something going on with Cumberland's lakefront development and you guys want to complain about the latest in a long history of slow-moving, over-budget GSA projects? I realize it's a story but it's not the big story. C'mon, someone here can answer why Port Control & the Port Authority are undertaking this study. What's going on? I would keep an eye on KS Associates a survey company who has done numerous assessments for the port from E9th to the CBT. Seeing that this time it is focused on those particular docks, I am thinking Pace is still trying to gauge what he can build there. An assessment may also have been requested by a possible tenant that Pace has rumored to be in discussion with. https://ksassociates.com/our-projects/1358-2/
September 4, 20186 yr Any idea who or what the potential tenant is? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 25, 20186 yr The big Hamburg cruise ship is in port today. Pretty neat looking ship! Any photos? :)
September 25, 20186 yr The big Hamburg cruise ship is in port today. Pretty neat looking ship! Didn't realize that it was coming thru Cleveland. Will definitely be interested to head down to check it out.
September 25, 20186 yr According to Vessel finder, it was at the following location a few minutes ago... https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9138329 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 25, 20186 yr Apparently I should use Cruise Mapper.... https://www.cruisemapper.com/?imo=9138329 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 26, 20186 yr Hamburg is due back on Oct 10th, if you miss it this time. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
September 26, 20186 yr It makes the case for finally extending the malls, not some flimsy pedestrian bridge, to the lakefront.... The Grand, Underutilized Park in the Heart of Cleveland https://www.citylab.com/design/2018/09/grand-underutilized-park-heart-cleveland/570619/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 26, 20186 yr I think it's a great idea to continue the mall to lakefront, and also believe there needs to be more incentive to do so. The harbor development is the prime benefactor of such a link. Also, the science center, rock hall, and browns stadium. As development continues, so will the incentive and hopefully the ambition of private developers to fund the link. I don't think it's within the city or county's best interest to speculate on projects to link the mall to the lake. As the incentive to attract patrons to the lakefront increases, maybe private developers will incorporate a link into their development plans?
September 26, 20186 yr Hopefully this new group will help spur some momentum. The Coalition has proposed two connectivity projects: The GRC Harbor Land Bridge Proposal creates a descending green space from Mall C (over the Convention Center) to the proposed connector building between the Rock Hall and Science Center, and bridging rail lines, freeway and side streets. (Details – refer to Projects Section) GRC has also proposed realigning I-90 through the former First Energy Power Plant site to create an expanded Gordon Park footprint, and facilitate better access to the Lakefront Nature Preserve, approaches to the trails along the MLK Blvd through the Cultural Gardens to University Circle, and opening-up development opportunities and connections in the adjacent neighborhoods. (Details – refer to Projects Section) https://www.greenribbonlakefront.org/our-vision/lakefront-connectivity/
September 26, 20186 yr I think it's a great idea to continue the mall to lakefront, and also believe there needs to be more incentive to do so. The harbor development is the prime benefactor of such a link. Also, the science center, rock hall, and browns stadium. As development continues, so will the incentive and hopefully the ambition of private developers to fund the link. I don't think it's within the city or county's best interest to speculate on projects to link the mall to the lake. As the incentive to attract patrons to the lakefront increases, maybe private developers will incorporate a link into their development plans? And here's how they can finance it (footnote: you have to include a railroad station in the project for it to be eligible for all of these capital resources): RRIF loan (up to $35 billion available -- can be used to fund 100 percent of a project's cost, including railroad [not transit alone] station-area real estate development) https://www.transportation.gov/buildamerica/programs-services/rrif TIFIA credits/loans/guarantees (no cap on capital assistance except that up to $120 million per year in subsidized capital [ie: reduced interest rates] is authorized -- fills in gaps in existing financing) https://www.transportation.gov/buildamerica/programs-services/tifia PABs offer low interest rate, tax-exempt bonds for private sector-led transportation projects (more than $8 billion of the current $15 billion authorization has been expended) https://www.transportation.gov/buildamerica/programs-services/pab Of these, the RRIF loan may be the best opportunity because it can fund 100 percent of a project's cost. And RRIF is applicable only if a railroad (ie: Amtrak, not RTA, although it can be a multimodal railroad facility that also includes RTA) is an element of the project. Simply creating a greenspace bridge over a railroad isn't sufficient to qualify for this loan. The bridge would have to include a multi-modal transportation center that has FRA-regulated passenger railroad facilities. And this site is fortunate to have that opportunity. My guesstimate is that a greenspace bridge with a multimodal transportation below that includes Amtrak is going to cost about $200 million to $300 million. A RRIF loan with a 3% interest rate and a 20-year term is going to cost the applicant $13 million per year ($200 million principal) to $20 million per year ($300 million principal). Facility leases from Amtrak, Greyhound, retailers, etc. aren't going to bring in that kind of money, but coupled with development of the current Greyhound site, they might offer that level of revenue to retire the loan. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 26, 20186 yr Isn't Amtrak pretty shit? Are there any ridership numbers from CLE station? I can't imagine it's much as there isn't much incentive to use Amtrak over airline when travel times are considered as part of the cost of travel. I think it'd be great to have a redeveloped train station connecting to mall, but is there enough demand?
September 26, 20186 yr Isn't Amtrak pretty shit? Are there any ridership numbers from CLE station? I can't imagine it's much as there isn't much incentive to use Amtrak over airline when travel times are considered as part of the cost of travel. I think it'd be great to have a redeveloped train station connecting to mall, but is there enough demand? This isn't a matter of usage but of legal authority to tap funding. The presence of Amtrak provides the legal authority to secure a Railroad Rehabilitation & Improvement Financing (RRIF) loan. The actual Amtrak facilities (platforms, stairwells, elevators and ticketing/baggage facilities, plus part of a waiting room shared with others) would likely comprise about $10 million to $30 million of the total $200 million to $300 million cost. Amtrak serves cities airlines and even Greyhound doesn't. In fact, Amtrak carries far more passengers per year than Greyhound. If it were an airline, Amtrak would be the nation's fifth-largest in domestic passengers, who enjoy productive travel time with onboard WiFi, food/beverage service, sleeping accommodations, etc. At Cleveland, however, due to inconvenient train schedules (all four Amtrak trains serve Cleveland between 1 a.m. and 6 a.m.), Amtrak boards only 50,000+ passengers per year in Cleveland (a 38% increase over the last decade), compared to 250,000 for Greyhound. Amtrak has the same number of trains in Pittsburgh but with better hours and boards 150,000+ per year. In St. Louis and Milwaukee, cities with fast, frequent Amtrak service to Chicago and other cities, Amtrak boards 500,000+ per year. But again, we're talking the legal authority to tap a financial resource for a station-area development, and the presence of Amtrak provides that legal authority. As for usage justification (which is not a primary driver of the RRIF loan eligibility, although fiscal fitness is), these annual usage figures can be demonstrated: > Amtrak -- 50,000+ passengers > Greyhound -- 250,000 passengers > GCRTA North Coast -- 40,000 passengers > Laketran -- 185,000 passengers > Akron Metro RTA -- 110,000 passengers > Canton SARTA -- 10,000 passengers > Kent PARTA -- 10,000 passengers > Oberlin AOS -- 5,000 passengers > 20% increase from improved connectivity among modes -- 132,000 EDIT: Megabus and its estimated 180,000 boardings per year is not included. It was learned that if Megabus is included in this project, then Greyhound would not agree to be part of it. That's 792,000 passengers, many of whom now board at other locations downtown but would now have a single, easily identifiable and more hospitable boarding/transfering point. That's more passengers than there are enplanements at Akron-Canton Regional Airport (CAK). That's more people than go to First Energy Stadium per year, and the city of Cleveland provided $30 million per year in the first 15 years for the construction of that facility, and starting in 2014, provided $2 million per year over 15 years for its renovation. We're talking $13 million to $20 million to retire a RRIF loan for this greenspace land bridge that would contain a multimodal transportation center in his lower levels, something that would also serve as a year-round pedestrian linkage between North Coast Harbor, the lakefront redevelopment and the rest of downtown. I'd say that's a better deal than First Energy Stadium, regardless of the Browns' performance. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 20186 yr Let's not get started on municipal funding of sport entertainment complexes.... :P Also, just because the city has speculated on building private industry buildings, doesn't mean it needs to continue that practice. Especially considering the numbers you just dropped. In my opinion, the city should be facilitating the collaboration of private transportation companies, in conjunction with public trans, rather than putting forth any monetary funds. If RTA, Amtrak, Greyhound and other regional trans get together, is $200M a realistic goal? I think getting all the transportation hubs under one roof at the edge of the mall is fantastic idea and great use of public space.
September 27, 20186 yr I will cite sports complexes because, if the city is willing to invest such sums in a facility that will get used 10-12 days per year, then there is ample justification for one that will get used by more people and do so 365 days per year. There is no incentive for private transportation companies to put money into transportation facilities when they are not asked to do so in other cities. So they will devote what little capital they have to those cities who do what they've come to expect. Public sector investment in transportation infrastructure has a long and positive history in this country and is pro-competitive. It's why Amtrak service is so lousy here but so much better elsewhere. Because other places pay for it. We don't. Why should carriers put money into Ohio when they don't have to put money into improving transportation services in other states and regions? Our choices: either we play ball by rules set by others, we lobby to change those rules, or we be content with the situation we have now. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 20186 yr That explains a lot... So, is this whole idea realistic? Depends on the will of the local business community and politicians. If they have it, it's a very doable project. If not, it won't happen. Here's a document I created eight years ago to convey what rail/multimodal stations say about other cities and their desire for connectivity and access (you have to rotate after opening -- sorry!): http://freepdfhosting.com/8b1369c85e.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 20186 yr oh man, the Denver station is beautiful! I visited this spring and it's really top notch. Great hub of activity for transportation, residency and retail. Let's keep the conversation going
September 28, 20186 yr That explains a lot... So, is this whole idea realistic? Depends on the will of the local business community and politicians. If they have it, it's a very doable project. If not, it won't happen. Here's a document I created eight years ago to convey what rail/multimodal stations say about other cities and their desire for connectivity and access (you have to rotate after opening -- sorry!): http://freepdfhosting.com/8b1369c85e.pdf What are the thoughts of local leaders on this?
September 28, 20186 yr What are the thoughts of local leaders on this? Their primary motivation was to move Greyhound out of the way of a Geis development. They didn't care where. All Aboard Ohio got them to care a little bit, which slowed down the development process for Geis. That caused him to look elsewhere for his next development and the city's motivation for developing the multimodal station went away. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 28, 20186 yr Was the motivation to relocate the traffic associated with greyhound station or to repurpose the greyhound station building?
September 28, 20186 yr While I am at the point where I roll my eyes ::) when ever somebody mentions Pace's alleged negotiations with a large tenant for his lakeside development (I guess he will have to get off the pot by next June when his extension with the city is up), including Pace, I wonder if the lack of leadership and action by the city relative to a mall to lakeside connection (even if it is only that piss poor bridge previously proposed) may be hindering these supposed negotiations.
September 28, 20186 yr Was the motivation to relocate the traffic associated with greyhound station or to repurpose the greyhound station building? Yes. While I am at the point where I roll my eyes ::) when ever somebody mentions Pace's alleged negotiations with a large tenant for his lakeside development (I guess he will have to get off the pot by next June when his extension with the city is up), including Pace, I wonder if the lack of leadership and action by the city relative to a mall to lakeside connection (even if it is only that piss poor bridge previously proposed) may be hindering these supposed negotiations. That may be a decent assumption but I don't know for certain. I do know that Pace's people were VERY interested in having improved mall-to-lake pedestrian linkages. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 20186 yr There's something going on with Cumberland's lakefront development and you guys want to complain about the latest in a long history of slow-moving, over-budget GSA projects? I realize it's a story but it's not the big story. C'mon, someone here can answer why Port Control & the Port Authority are undertaking this study. What's going on? I would keep an eye on KS Associates a survey company who has done numerous assessments for the port from E9th to the CBT. Seeing that this time it is focused on those particular docks, I am thinking Pace is still trying to gauge what he can build there. An assessment may also have been requested by a possible tenant that Pace has rumored to be in discussion with. https://ksassociates.com/our-projects/1358-2/ Looks like the assessment is moving FWD. Cleveland to study docks around FirstEnergy Stadium, North Coast Harbor in lakefront development plan https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/10/cleveland_to_study_docks_aroun.html
October 2, 20186 yr ^This really has me scratching my head. This sounds like real preliminary work that should have been completed ages ago. In fact I would have thought this would have been done before or in conjunction with the RFP. Have Pace and Trammell been working all these years and negotiating with potential tenants without know if their visions could be supported on the site? Even if they went into this knowing there were probably issues, why has it taken so long to do this type of analysis?
October 2, 20186 yr ^Sounds like the city is required to do this every 6 years. Pace/Cumberland was chosen as the developer in 2013/14 so he probably had some information at that time. Other assessments have been done along the lakefront but this one specifically targets those docks. At this point I think they are pretty clear on what they can build.
October 4, 20186 yr Inspections to take a year. https://fox8.com/2018/10/03/new-movements-on-cleveland-lakefront-development/
November 2, 20186 yr Cleveland moving ahead on $16.8 million pedestrian bridge across North Coast Harbor Updated 6:01 PM; Posted 5:14 PM By Robert Higgs, cleveland.com [email protected] CLEVELAND, Ohio – A pedestrian bridge across North Coast Harbor that has been in the works for more than a decade is finally moving forward at a cost of nearly $17 million. The city could seek bids for construction of the lift bridge by March. Construction of the span linking the west side of the harbor with Voinovich Park could be underway by early 2020. Construction is expected to be completed by June 2022. https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2018/11/cleveland-moving-ahead-on-168-million-pedestrian-bridge-across-north-coast-harbor.html Edited November 2, 20186 yr by CornerCurve
November 2, 20186 yr Ehhh, I don't see a use for a bridge like that other than Cleveland has money to blow. I like this guy's response on Cleveland.com 's article. Let us not forget about this one too... Edited November 2, 20186 yr by tastybunns
November 2, 20186 yr This bridge always seemed like a "finishing touch" to me, completely dependent on a firm plan and financing in place for mixed use north of the Browns stadium to activate Voinovich Park. I've never understood why this has been on anything other than the most rear of burners.
Create an account or sign in to comment