January 25, 20196 yr Isn't the channel in the location where zbaris87 posted in november about the warehouses being converted this summer.
January 25, 20196 yr I can tell you that this is not an updated design. This doesn't show the warehouses on the north end of the lakefront. Construction is supposed to begin in late spring/early summer on that portion.
January 26, 20196 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 26, 20196 yr I know there was a lot of people that was very disappointed when they scaled down from the original version, but these units turned out real nice.
January 26, 20196 yr Those views are worth every penny. The Rock Hall really must activate that wasted blank space ASAP. It shouldn’t be difficult. Edited January 26, 20196 yr by surfohio
January 27, 20196 yr Great views - the architectural style seems to blend really well with the waterfront environment. Makes me excited to see further expansions of the neighborhood.
January 28, 20196 yr Ok, build a 16 unit rental building on the waterfront to be safe because you dont't think it will be hard to fill, but it sells out quickly. Now you are left with this small little apartment complex on prime real estate for years to come with 16 units. Look at Baltimore Harbor ....this is what makes Cleveland small minded! Please don't defend this post.
January 28, 20196 yr It is only prime real estate if they could actually build on it. Jacob's Downtown Lot & Weston Super Block are on PRIME REAL ESTATE, but they have not been able to build anything on it in over 30 years. So What is so prime about it?
January 28, 20196 yr 45 minutes ago, newyorker said: Ok, build a 16 unit rental building on the waterfront to be safe because you dont't think it will be hard to fill, but it sells out quickly. Now you are left with this small little apartment complex on prime real estate for years to come with 16 units. Look at Baltimore Harbor ....this is what makes Cleveland small minded! Please don't defend this post. More density here would be great, but it’s not all the developer‘s fault. There were issues of being in the flight path for Burke and complications with building on fill.
January 28, 20196 yr Just now, newyorker said: Ok, build a 16 unit rental building on the waterfront to be safe because you dont't think it will be hard to fill, but it sells out quickly. Now you are left with this small little apartment complex on prime real estate for years to come with 16 units. Look at Baltimore Harbor ....this is what makes Cleveland small minded! Please don't defend this post. There's thing place called Burke Lakefront Airport directly east of this prime real estate. Baltimore Harbor isn't adjacent to an airport. Also, this 16 unit apartment building is on a small parcel, so it's a limited sized development all around: footprint and height. You are aware of Burke Airport and where it is, right? Not sure why you would go to Cleveland being small minded otherwise related to this topic. Edited January 28, 20196 yr by Oxford19
January 28, 20196 yr I don't think they could have built larger due to the height limitations from the flight paths for Burke Lakefront Airport.
January 28, 20196 yr According to this article the project was to much larger but it seems that the developer got cheap like most of them in Cleveland. https://articles.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/12/cleveland_lakefront_developer.amp
January 28, 20196 yr 3 hours ago, newyorker said: According to this article the project was to much larger but it seems that the developer got cheap like most of them in Cleveland. https://articles.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/12/cleveland_lakefront_developer.amp Sounds like a case of ''reading what you're looking for'' here. Not a case of the developer getting ''cheap''; you did read upwards of a 1,000 units. The headline does read ''adjusts plans for first apartment building''. Edited January 28, 20196 yr by Oxford19
January 28, 20196 yr Just now, newyorker said: You really believe you will see 1,000 units built when they can barly finance 16 units? Have you learned anything from NuClEus, the Weston Wearhouse District (1,200 units) project and the Jacobs never ending sea of parking lots twer. I love Cleveland too, but we need to stop defending this local apathy. https://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/11/weston_citymark_capital_plan_a.html https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2018/09/05/if-nucleus-is-ever-built-it-sure-wont-be-a-54-story-skyscraper https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20080528/FREE/330573416/jacobs-group-partner-plan-public-sq-office-tower So, is it Cleveland doing everything on the cheap, as you state, or the inability to get financing? Big difference. New downtown residential construction currently is a challenge. Cleveland has done and made lots of mistakes whether it's on the cheap or simply misguided. You only take this back to nuCLEus and Weston lots, haven't you learned anything from the on the cheap and misguied Red and Waterfront Rapid Transit Lines? Edited January 28, 20196 yr by Oxford19
January 29, 20196 yr Port of Cleveland General Cargo Facility: Dock 26W Rehabilitation Project Edited January 29, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 30, 20196 yr Why would the FAA require the Harbor Verandas to downsize from 5 stories to 2 or 3 when the 162’ RRHOF Tower is side by side with it? I agree that this project was scaled down too substantially when considering the uniqueness of the location and the appeal of the lakefront views. Wasn’t this project originally 5 stories? It now looks even shorter than the revised 3 story version that had been published a couple years ago. Still, though modest, this is at least a step in the right direction for Downtown Cleveland’s waterfront. I think I’m in a majority that feel the downtown lakefront has been strangely undervalued and underdeveloped - but perhaps the quick success of these Verandas will prove that “if you build it - they will come.” I wonder what Clevland’s waterfront, without an airport on it, could look like some day later in this century? Edited January 30, 20196 yr by CleveFan
January 31, 20196 yr We are getting bogged down in misinformation and confusion because people are talking about cranes. The building on this site was originally slated to be 5 stories, after originally being just 2 stories. (https://forum.urbanohio.com/topic/583-cleveland-lakefront-development-and-news/?do=findComment&comment=747885) Not so much taller that we'd have seen a big beautiful crane in the sky, but we have Pace quoted as saying it would have required deeper foundations which caused construction costs to be "too high". Quote "The change in foundation type will save roughly $500,000, said Pace, who also has shifted to lighter construction materials, drawing lessons from the Nuevo project." The article stated the cost of the project was $10-12 million dollars. Not sure what the cost on the original 5-story version was going to be. We also have @Enginerd paraphrasing Pace saying he had problems dealing with the FAA at the Nuevo project due to the volleyball courts and trees. Nuevo is further up the pier and right in line with the Burke runways so that might have had something to do with those issues. There's tons we don't know about why this was scaled up and then back down. Financing certainly was an issue but I don't get the mentality that if the banks say we can't have 40 units, we shouldn't build 16. There is a ton of space north of the stadium to build big. The city has acres and acres of muni lot space that should be developed on as TOD. Edited January 31, 20196 yr by PittsburgoDelendaEst
February 2, 20196 yr 1 hour ago, newyorker said: Lack of vision is building only 16 units apartment on prime waterfront space. What keeps Cleveland stuck in the past is the need to continuously defend apathy. Vision doesn't get buildings built. Market forces do. A governmental body can incentivize it, but you still have to prove there are buyers and renters. There was no precedent for downtown lakefront housing in Cleveland. So it was only a theory that anyone would live at such an isolated, windswept (especially in winter) location and at what price. There will probably be a next building somewhere and maybe it will be bigger. We shall see. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 20196 yr https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/02/no-longer-overlooked-clevelands-huntington-convention-center-sees-continued-growth.html Interesting article about Cleveland's growing Convention business. Apparently people are recognizing that conventions are good economic drivers for Cleveland. I wasn't aware, however, of just how limited Cleveland 's conventions business is due to the Huntington's size. It made me wonder if a significantly larger Convention Center could be self-funded. Could expanding the convention center northward over the railway and Shore would enable Cleveland to compete from much larger, more profitable conventions in the future? And could that expansion be constructed in such a way that it simultaneously serve as the bridge that provides year-round, public access the the lakefront, Rock Hall, GLSS, Stadium, etc.
February 3, 20196 yr 8 minutes ago, jbdad2 said: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/02/no-longer-overlooked-clevelands-huntington-convention-center-sees-continued-growth.html Interesting article about Cleveland's growing Convention business. Apparently people are recognizing that conventions are good economic drivers for Cleveland. I wasn't aware, however, of just how limited Cleveland 's conventions business is due to the Huntington's size. It made me wonder if a significantly larger Convention Center could be self-funded. Could expanding the convention center northward over the railway and Shore would enable Cleveland to compete from much larger, more profitable conventions in the future? And could that expansion be constructed in such a way that it simultaneously serve as the bridge that provides year-round, public access the the lakefront, Rock Hall, GLSS, Stadium, etc. I don't know if it could be self-funded, but I would love to see this and have an indoor, 24-hour pedestrian promenade and multimodal station as part of this convention expansion -- with, of course, a Mall D outdoor park on the roof. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 20196 yr An extension/expansion of the downtown convention center over the railroad track ''moat'' could work. Let's not forget that the downtown facility is much smaller than Cleveland's other giant convention center, ranked as a top-10 largest in the U.S.: the IX Center. Cleveland ranks in the top tier cities like Chicago, Orlando, and Las Vegas. Nice to hear though that the downtown convention center is doing well; the location is great, very urban obviously. One comment made by attendees at the recent girls volleyball tournament: no close-by fast food restaurants. Not sure what's left in Tower City, but some people had to drive away from downtown to get something fast to eat. So, I would expect the nearby food and other options to develop north of the Huntington Center as Cleveland finally connects to its downtown lakefront. Wonder if food trucks etc lined up on the east-west sides of Mall C? Again, it's nice to hear that the Huntington Center is busy and there's grumbling that Cleveland needs more downtown space. Any expansion would be north, which if done right, could tie the lakefront to the Malls, finally.
February 3, 20196 yr I'm undecided what to do with the lakefront. It would be an entirely separated neighborhood from downtown. I'm more focused infilling downtown center first unless they make it into a grand park with statues, fountains with maybe a retail component along a boardwalk. I don't know.... edit. thinking New Orleans river front retail part.. but then I forget Winter. Edited February 3, 20196 yr by Mildtraumatic
February 3, 20196 yr 42 minutes ago, 327 said: I might have picked two of your three examples myself. Downtown Cincinnati recently added The Banks, a cluster of legitimate city blocks, on the wrong side of the freeway from everything else. Downtown Detroit has a ton of stuff between the freeway and the river, including the Renaissance Center and a bunch of hi-rise apartments. I'll grant that neither location is as windy, and that the separation is more pronounced in Cleveland's case. But the difference is measured in feet, not miles. Buffalo... yeah, we can do better than that and we should. Detroit has port facilities on the fringe of downtown too and I'm not sure what that has to do with Siberia. I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove. What I do know is that a lot more could be done with our waterfront, and we should think bigger from now on. Like I said, walk from the Mather to a grocery store and back next Saturday, after this warm spell passes. Tell me if it seems like feet or miles to you. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 20196 yr I feel the lakefront should be put on the shelf until someone accidentally comes up with a better proposal.
February 4, 20196 yr 3 hours ago, Mildtraumatic said: I feel the lakefront should be put on the shelf until someone accidentally comes up with a better proposal. Respectfully disagree. Incremental growth is absolutely fine. In fact it’s arguably better, being more organic. If you see any pics from Ingenuity fest you can see how easy it is to get the lakefront onto people’s radar.
February 4, 20196 yr What if the Malls were extended straight to the lakefront edge? It could end wit a series of terraced steps and landings. Below the grassed rooftops can be a combination of parking structure/retail/extensions of GLSC /Convention Center/ Intermodal Transportation Center.
February 7, 20196 yr Some food for thought: 1. Think before you post. For some, think before you post something off-topic or could take the thread off-topic. 2. Ask yourself if what you're about to post is truly profound. 3. If you want to discuss something not related to the title of the thread, make a separate thread somewhere else. 4. If you think you're the only one with a critical or contrarian viewpoint, you're not. 5. If you are posting in development threads and feel financial forces, economics, market trends or any other issues based in reality have no impact on projects - why are you here? clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 11, 20196 yr Note the addresses. They are on both sides of the Shoreway/I-90. The 5700 South Marginal Road address is where the 12-story Howard Johnson hotel stood until 2009. West of here to East 55th, the two parcels changed last year and are now in the hands of Cresco Real Estate and Ivan Goldberg. The former hotel site, however, is still owned by the city, as is 5500 North Marginal Road, which is one property east of the large vacant lot next to Quay 55/Shoreline apartments. You may recall that the owner of Quay 55/Shoreline bought the large lot next to it, which apparently happened through an entity sale.... https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180624/news/166171/landmark-pursues-more-land-lakefront-suites Anyway, here is the latest from Design Review (there isn't much, so I'm very interested to see if Knez will go vertical or stick to their bread-n-butter townhouses -- we won't have to wait long as this will be on design-review's agenda the following day)..... http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/brd/detailDR.php?ID=3096&CASE=DF 2019-010 E. 55TH MIXED-USE DEVELOPMENT Return to Case List | Start Over | Print Report (PDF format) Project Information Downtown/Flats Case # DF 2019-010 Address:5700 S. Marginal Rd. & 5500 N. Marginal Rd. Company:B.R. Knex Construction, Inc. Architect:RSA Architects, LLC | B.R. Knez Construction, Inc. Description: New Mixed-Use development project. EDIT: I just heard that Bo Knez grew up near East 55th and St. Clair, so this project apparently is going to be a labor of love for him. Quay 55/Shoreline pictured below.... Edited February 11, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20196 yr East Shoreway site draws big plan A South Marginal Road site near East 55th Street that overlooks the East Shoreway and Lake Erie may be redeveloped as a five-floor apartment building and about 50 townhouse units in a plan proposed by Knez Homes of Concord Township. The site is best known as the former Howard Johnson's hotel site. That 12-story structure was razed in 2009 by a contractor hired by the city of Cleveland, which now owns the site. Knez is on the agenda to share design concepts for the site at the Downtown/Flats Design Review Committee meeting Thursday, Feb. 14, and if the plan is approved, it could be reviewed by Cleveland City Planning Commission on Friday, Feb. 15. The South Marginal site is listed on the design review agenda "for informational purposes only." More: https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/east-shoreway-site-draws-big-plan?utm_source=afternoon-report&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20190212&utm_content=article1-headline
February 12, 20196 yr Damn, Crain's. I've been bugging Knez for the renderings since yesterday to post on my blog. Tip of the cap to Crain's. I don't understand putting a smaller building facing the Shoreway. The building should get taller the closer it gets to the lake. Heck, if you tip the mutifamily building on its edge, it's an 11-story building. And still not as tall as the Howard Johnson's that once stood here. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20196 yr Just now, KJP said: Damn, Crain's. I've been bugging Knez for the renderings since yesterday to post on my blog. Tip of the cap to Crain's. I don't understand putting a smaller building facing the Shoreway. The building should get taller the closer it gets to the lake. Heck, if you tip the mutifamily building on its edge, it's an 11-story building. And still not as tall as the Howard Johnson's that once stood here. They must be trying to arrange the site to maximize lake views.
February 12, 20196 yr The Crain's article also says nothing of the property on the north side of the Shoreway that Knez also wants to develop. It's specifically listed on the Design Review agenda. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20196 yr Not my money at risk here, but for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would want to pay new construction rents for that kind of location. This is a weird project! EDIT: am I just underestimating the appeal of being near the lake? Like, even if there's a highway in the way and it's a not especially nice part of the lakefront? Edited February 12, 20196 yr by StapHanger
February 12, 20196 yr Just now, StapHanger said: Not my money at risk here, but for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would want to pay new construction rents for that kind of location. This is a weird project! Yeah, I'm always a glass half full guy with any development in the city, but I don't get it.
February 12, 20196 yr ^^agreed....I don't get the location at all.....Its not a great lake view and you are on a massive highway. I could understand north of 90...Also, Its not a walkable area at all. Its the same problem with Quay 55. Its isolated from everything. I wish them luck
February 12, 20196 yr It's great that this project is close to Gordon Park, but that park hasn't been anything special since I-90 sliced it in half. Plus using East 55th to access the park is like walking/biking along a highway cloverleaf ramp. It's pretty inhumane. That being said....I despise entering Cleveland on I-90 from the northeast along the lakeshore. It should be lined with high-rise apartment buildings and multiple pedestrian/bike overpasses over the highway. Instead, it's a bunch of low-level commercial buildings and vacant lots. At least the coal-fired power plant is gone.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20196 yr More graphics. Still, nothing is shown on the CPC's website in regards to the property on the north side of the Shoreway. (both of these are landbank properties).... As shown on the agenda: DF2019-010 - East 55th Mixed-Use Development: For Informational Purposes Only Project Addresses: 5500 North Marginal and 5700 South Marginal Roads Project Representative: Hannah Cohan Plessner, B.R. Knez Construction The view from I-90... So is that supposed to be retail/restaurants facing the highway? If not, then where is the mixed-use in this conceptual plan? Is that's what's going to be on the north side of the Shoreway?? Edited February 12, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20196 yr In an ideal world we could create park space where Burke is and give E. 55th a road diet or perhaps an off road bike/ped trail. This would have a nice connection to Downtown going west and maybe a location for a bike bath going east to UC.
February 12, 20196 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: It's great that this project is close to Gordon Park, but that park hasn't been anything special since I-90 sliced it in half. Plus using East 55th to access the park is like walking/biking along a highway cloverleaf ramp. It's pretty inhumane. That being said....I despise entering Cleveland on I-90 from the northeast along the lakeshore. It should be lined with high-rise apartment buildings and multiple pedestrian/bike overpasses over the highway. Instead, it's a bunch of low-level commercial buildings and vacant lots. At least the coal-fired power plant is gone.... Could be a good argument to cap I 90 through this section and rejoin the park. Plus, that stretch is always bad in the winter with the waves crashing over the highway. I've even seen fish laying along the side of the freeway!
February 12, 20196 yr 2 hours ago, freefourur said: In an ideal world we could create park space where Burke is and give E. 55th a road diet or perhaps an off road bike/ped trail. This would have a nice connection to Downtown going west and maybe a location for a bike bath going east to UC. Maybe not ideal (I would've had I-90 start curving south immediately east of East 55th), but certainly an improvement.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20196 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: It's great that this project is close to Gordon Park, but that park hasn't been anything special since I-90 sliced it in half. Plus using East 55th to access the park is like walking/biking along a highway cloverleaf ramp. It's pretty inhumane. That being said....I despise entering Cleveland on I-90 from the northeast along the lakeshore. It should be lined with high-rise apartment buildings and multiple pedestrian/bike overpasses over the highway. Instead, it's a bunch of low-level commercial buildings and vacant lots. At least the coal-fired power plant is gone.... I make this trip all the time, and I've thought that too. But it's an older city and the western lakeshore has always been more residential. There's the airport of course, Gordon Park, and then you are in Bratenhal. After Bratenhal comes the easterly water treatment plant, then the "Beach" neighborhoods (including mine). Then you get to the old Euclid Beach Park....where the towers are de facto public housing. What does that say about the demand for high density housing housing on the Lake itself? Outside of two towers in Bratenhal, everything is suburban type housing. High end suburban, in Bratenhal itself. Also, keep in mind that while we think of the Shoreway as directly on the Lake thanks to Gordon Park and points west, it really isn't once you get east of 152nd. Even Lakeshore Boulevard jogs a few blocks away. Then there's the railroad, which is why there's all those commercial buildings. And lots where they were.
February 13, 20196 yr 15 hours ago, KJP said: Maybe not ideal (I would've had I-90 start curving south immediately east of East 55th), but certainly an improvement.... I love this idea and probably have an almost exact mspaint sketch of it on my PC somewhere in a "dream" folder :). Fixing the industry, rail, and highway dominance of the shorelines in this city would help build upon our unique location and help further separate us from land locked cities.
February 13, 20196 yr 1 hour ago, Sammy Voz said: I love this idea and probably have an almost exact mspaint sketch of it on my PC somewhere in a "dream" folder :). Fixing the industry, rail, and highway dominance of the shorelines in this city would help build upon our unique location and help further separate us from land locked cities. Here was my own personal dream scenario from 2015.... The numbers for the high-rise residential buildings represent their height in floors. I kept their heights at or below the approximate maximum height of the smokestacks of the former First Energy plant that stood here. The numbers for the general business structures south of the highway represent their size in square feet (100K = 100,000 square feet). Edited February 13, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 13, 20196 yr Studies/2013-UrbFwy-032; CUY-90 (19.50-21.60).pdf hopefully I added this right... this is obviously from 2013, before they closed and demolished the east side power plant, but I remember ODOT toying around with all the ramps in that area back then and thinking about changing the MLK / shoreway intersection to be a roundabout.
February 15, 20196 yr THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 2019 Downtown-lakefront land bridge has momentum, funding If the city has its way, a $65 million land bridge linking Downtown Cleveland's malls to the lakefront could soon be the centerpiece of a multi-faceted plan to enhance the area around North Coast Harbor. Developments surrounding the proposed land bridge include expansion of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, Great Lakes Science Center, Cumberland Real Estate Development's next phases as well as a multi-modal transportation center. MORE" https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/02/downtown-lakefront-land-bridge-has.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 15, 20196 yr All of this is awesome news! I've always said the most underutilizes natural resource in Ohio is Clevelands lack of a giant, contiguous lakefront park. Im glad to see this slowly becoming a reality!
February 15, 20196 yr K 1 hour ago, KJP said: THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 2019 Downtown-lakefront land bridge has momentum, funding If the city has its way, a $65 million land bridge linking Downtown Cleveland's malls to the lakefront could soon be the centerpiece of a multi-faceted plan to enhance the area around North Coast Harbor. Developments surrounding the proposed land bridge include expansion of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, Great Lakes Science Center, Cumberland Real Estate Development's next phases as well as a multi-modal transportation center. MORE" https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/02/downtown-lakefront-land-bridge-has.html KJP: Great news with the land bridge and multi-modal transportation system. Is there room in there for the convention center expansion going north?
Create an account or sign in to comment