I wish they would relocate the stadium and instead, but a nice central park in the middle with surrounding live/work buildings

This looks feasible, something they can actually start building soon.  Looks like they aren't holding out for a big corporate tenant.  Any info on whether funding is lined up?

Edited July 12, 20195 yr by ryanfrazier

15 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

This looks feasible, something they can actually start building soon.  Looks like they aren't holding out for a big corporate tenant.  Any info on whether funding is lined up?

Very feasible indeed. Pace said himself that these new plans were much more feasible than what they had previously drew up and that they would be able to move forward more quickly with the new changes (obviously these are still proposals and not final). From what I understood from the live stream (before it cut out and didn't return...) was that, like you said, they aren't holding out for an office tenant and rather just creating the space for future use. Funding wise however, I didn't hear anything about it...

Are these all low-rise buildings being proposed? 

meh, seems like a waste of one of the best pieces of property out there. If you want to attract people from the Rock Hall/Science Center/Stadium, I'd think the North Shore of Pittsburgh would be a good standard to follow, not this spread out corporate campus type look. Disappointing. 

 

PS- why's WKYC got to be all clickbaitey? It's not a crazy exclusive sneak peek when it's literally two renderings (and carrying the press conference I guess? just annoying). 

Edited July 12, 20195 yr by GISguy
Hangry rant

1 hour ago, jbee1982 said:

I wish they would relocate the stadium and instead, but a nice central park in the middle with surrounding live/work buildings

 

A new stadium would cost at least $500M, and perhaps much more. I can think of at least 10 better investments of that kind of public money in downtown alone.  For that matter, you would be able to get multiple major projects completed from that list for that kind of money. 

1 hour ago, jbee1982 said:

I wish they would relocate the stadium and instead, but a nice central park in the middle with surrounding live/work buildings

 

12 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

A new stadium would cost at least $500M, and perhaps much more. I can think of at least 10 better investments of that kind of public money in downtown alone.  For that matter, you would be able to get multiple major projects completed from that list for that kind of money. 

 

And to clarify, I fully agree that they should have put that stadium elsewhere - probably right by gateway on one side or the other of the new inner belt bridges - but what’s done is done. 

6 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Are these all low-rise buildings being proposed? 

 

I think so, especially since the buildings in the older renderings were all low-rise as well.

 

And since we only got two images of the new master plan and this is kind of important...

For the second addition to my series of Unofficial Google Sketchup Renderings (see nuCLEus thread for the first), I took the master plan image and made a best-guess mock-up of what I think the future Lakefront would roughly look like in 3D to give us all a better idea of what's what...

And the Money Shot...

(I only take credit for creating the models in yellow which are future/proposed buildings)

@Geowizical did you make that today, since the livestream?  I don't know Sketchup but that seems super quick.  And helpful!

1 hour ago, surfohio said:

Are these all low-rise buildings being proposed? 

 

After seeing the 3D renderings above, I don’t mind that these are all lower rise buildings. It adds a good bit of density. I know we’ve discussed it here before as well, but if I recall correctly, there are height restrictions around here as well due to the airport. 

2 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

@Geowizical did you make that today, since the livestream?  I don't know Sketchup but that seems super quick.  And helpful!

Thanks! I do have lots of experience with Sketchup so it did go fairly quickly, but yes, I threw it together once the images came out after the livestream. All I did was outline the buildings from the image and then extrude upwards (since there were no good 3D renderings to go off of) so that helped make it go quicker.

4 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

After seeing the 3D renderings above, I don’t mind that these are all lower rise buildings. It adds a good bit of density. I know we’ve discussed it here before as well, but if I recall correctly, there are height restrictions around here as well due to the airport. 

 

That's my view as well.  It would be great to see people living in that area, paired with some things common in actual communities (like schools, stores, placed to work, etc.) and this does a lot of those things in a potentially deliverable package.  Keeping the buildings low-rise makes construction much cheaper.

1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

 

I think so, especially since the buildings in the older renderings were all low-rise as well.

 

And since we only got two images of the new master plan and this is kind of important...

For the second addition to my series of Unofficial Google Sketchup Renderings (see nuCLEus thread for the first), I took the master plan image and made a best-guess mock-up of what I think the future Lakefront would roughly look like in 3D to give us all a better idea of what's what...

And the Money Shot...

(I only take credit for creating the models in yellow which are future/proposed buildings)

^Awesome job! Is it just me or does the linear green space in the above renderings appear to line up almost perfectly with the malls? I can picture the Land Bridge project descending several levels to meet up with Pace’s green space in this project.

14 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

^Awesome job! Is it just me or does the linear green space in the above renderings appear to line up almost perfectly with the malls? I can picture the Land Bridge project descending several levels to meet up with Pace’s green space in this project.

Thanks! That's what I noticed too, the malls do line up almost perfectly! And I think when Pace referenced "connecting the mall" in the livestream, maybe he was hinting at doing just this... expanding the mall down and connecting it to this vertical strip of green space. If so, I think something like this would literally be perfect. 

So let me preface this by saying I love the renderings...

 

But Pace will have a very unique challenge in blending the area with Downtown in a way that makes it accessible. The lake to the north and the Stadium to the south really cut off linear access to the development. There will need to be retail/food on such a scale that would make the development a destination, imo. 

 

I think there are some great people involved in this development though, so I look forward to seeing more proposals. I would love to see the water taxi fleet and route services expanded to include this development. I'd also love to see the waterfront line branch off, though that might be too much of an ask at this point. 

 

Nonetheless, I am really pleased and excited. 

8 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

So let me preface this by saying I love the renderings...

 

But Pace will have a very unique challenge in blending the area with Downtown in a way that makes it accessible. The lake to the north and the Stadium to the south really cut off linear access to the development. There will need to be retail/food on such a scale that would make the development a destination, imo. 

 

I think there are some great people involved in this development though, so I look forward to seeing more proposals. I would love to see the water taxi fleet and route services expanded to include this development. I'd also love to see the waterfront line branch off, though that might be too much of an ask at this point. 

 

Nonetheless, I am really pleased and excited. 

I always think the same thing about North Coast harbor but somehow it's always packed there. Just need to plan good events to keep people coming to that area. 

34 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

Thanks! That's what I noticed too, the malls do line up almost perfectly! And I think when Pace referenced "connecting the mall" in the livestream, maybe he was hinting at doing just this... expanding the mall down and connecting it to this vertical strip of green space. If so, I think something like this would literally be perfect. 

Yup! Expand the convention center underneath it and put a transportation center under it as well at Lakeside Ave level (I know @KJP has written at length on this) and now we’d be getting somewhere!

1 hour ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

After seeing the 3D renderings above, I don’t mind that these are all lower rise buildings. It adds a good bit of density. I know we’ve discussed it here before as well, but if I recall correctly, there are height restrictions around here as well due to the airport. 

 

Definite restrictions due to the airport.   Even the buildings in this rendering look like they may be too high.  

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 I'd also love to see the waterfront line branch off, though that might be too much of an ask at this point. 

 

 

I was thinking about this too, so I measured the walk (on Google Maps).  From the East 9th st station it is about a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest part of this development.  From the West 3rd station, about 1/4 mile (to the closest part to that station).  If we get @KJP 's transit center with a relocated Waterfront station, that walk would be just over 1/4 mile, with some of it covered.  I would think 1/4 mile walk to light rail would generally be considered accessible, although that would certainly be a cold walk in winter.  As much as I like the idea of the Waterfront line wrapping around the north side of the stadium to benefit this development, I don't think it would generate enough additional ridership to prioritize it over other light rail proposals.

20 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I was thinking about this too, so I measured the walk (on Google Maps).  From the East 9th st station it is about a 1/2 mile walk to the nearest part of this development.  From the West 3rd station, about 1/4 mile (to the closest part to that station).  If we get @KJP 's transit center with a relocated Waterfront station, that walk would be just over 1/4 mile, with some of it covered.  I would think 1/4 mile walk to light rail would generally be considered accessible, although that would certainly be a cold walk in winter.  As much as I like the idea of the Waterfront line wrapping around the north side of the stadium to benefit this development, I don't think it would generate enough additional ridership to prioritize it over other light rail proposals.

Pretty sure .25 miles is the top limit for most american's to be cool with walking (?), I'm on my work computer or I'd google the study. Sounds like this would be in the sweetspot...minus the winter breeze off the lake - maybe the developers could have a shuttle of some sort or a MPLS tube system going on haha.

2 hours ago, CleCaneFan said:

Yup! Expand the convention center underneath it and put a transportation center under it as well at Lakeside Ave level (I know @KJP has written at length on this) and now we’d be getting somewhere!

 

I’m actually getting a real Navy Yards in DC vibe to this, albeit on a bit smaller scale. That part of DC’s waterfront is a fantastic example of how to engage and develop an industrial waterfront area — also separated by the core of the city by a freeway — with truly impressive and modern low-rise development, mixing existing industrial buildings with new, complimentary architecture. I hope Dick Pace, Cumberland, et al, make a visit there if they haven’t already for some inspiration on how good this could be. 

Edited July 12, 20195 yr by brtshrcegr

12 minutes ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

I’m actually getting a real Navy Yards in DC vibe to this, albeit on a bit smaller scale. That part of DC’s waterfront is a fantastic example of how to engage and develop an industrial waterfront area — also separated by the core of the city by a freeway — with truly impressive and modern low-rise development, mixing existing industrial buildings with new, complimentary architecture. I hope Dick apace, Cumberland, et al, make a visit there if they haven’t already for some inspiration on how good this could be. 

 

And take the Scranton Peninsula people along with him!  ?

2 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

I’m actually getting a real Navy Yards in DC vibe to this, albeit on a bit smaller scale. That part of DC’s waterfront is a fantastic example of how to engage and develop an industrial waterfront area — also separated by the core of the city by a freeway — with truly impressive and modern low-rise development, mixing existing industrial buildings with new, complimentary architecture. I hope Dick Pace, Cumberland, et al, make a visit there if they haven’t already for some inspiration on how good this could be. 

Doesn't remind me of that area in any form.  This is from someone who knows what that area looked like 25 years ago.

Seriously, how hard would it be to construct a spur off of the Waterfront line north of the flats? Wind it through this development, past the new hotel, run it through the front plazas of the GLSC and Rock Hall, but all in conjunction of the downtown loop. Would be amazing.

8 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Definite restrictions due to the airport.   Even the buildings in this rendering look like they may be too high.  

Yeah, I'm curious what those restrictions are... On the Fox 8 website, they have one extra image not shown previously which actually look pretty tall. They must've designed them with height restrictions in mind (I would hope), but at the very least, I think the overall heights of the buildings blend in nicely with the stadium:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

6 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Doesn't remind me of that area in any form.  This is from someone who knows what that area looked like 25 years ago.

 

Exactly my point. What DC’s Navy Yard looked like 25 years ago to what it looks like today is....a different universe. If Pace can replicate that north of the stadium, which shares a lot of qualities but on a smaller scale, then he might have something going. Based on the most recent massings, I’ve gone from pessimistic about this project to cautiously optimistic. 

Edited July 13, 20195 yr by brtshrcegr

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Seriously, how hard would it be to construct a spur off of the Waterfront line north of the flats? Wind it through this development, past the new hotel, run it through the front plazas of the GLSC and Rock Hall, but all in conjunction of the downtown loop. Would be amazing.

 

A year ago I doodled this exact flight of fancy in Google Maps:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18QR-fGrfxMbf37Vayvx4visn7Ou9d-9n&usp=sharing

 

Unsure how to get it back across the Shoreway, but at this point who cares, the WFL has no ridership anyway and there's nothing going on in regards to development on Muni Lots or creating a loop.  At this would be a destination.

6 hours ago, simplythis said:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

 

In the new Thunderbird apartment complex parking lots?

Interesting to read the thoughts of so many relatively new members on the board concerning the lakefront,  Very deja vu.  Now if only something would get done before you find me playing bridge with Mike White and Jane Campbell in our nursing home.

9 hours ago, simplythis said:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

The last thing needed in more parking.  There is public transportation right there.

11 hours ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

.

 

One thing I’ve been thinking about (and this picture helps to illustrate) - how high will this land bridge need to be to clear the Shoreway as it exists now? I liked Ken’s plan for converting it into a boulevard; I just think that’s unlikely for political reasons. If the land bridge is really high to clear the Shoreway, will it also go over Lerner way? How much slope will it need to get back down to ground level? I’m really looking forward to seeing new renderings from whoever is driving this project. 

 

Also, I do like your Waterfront spur drawing. And it should continue on, ramp up, and then south to East 17 and continuing on for a proper full loop. 

Edited July 13, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian
Typo

12 hours ago, simplythis said:

Do these residences come with parking? where are these 1000

units going to park?

1,000 Units! So that would equate to about 2,000 more to downtown population? This isn't NYC. Parking is a must if they expect it to fill.

Edited July 13, 20195 yr by Mildtraumatic

3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

The last thing needed in more parking.  There is public transportation right there.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that parking is the worst utilization of space period. But, anyone who would be able to afford these is used to traveling by car. Potential residents expect parking otherwise they'll pass. The waterfront line comes maybe every 30 min? And then, where to? We have to face the fact that Cleveland is not New York City. RTA is drastically underfunded and thus traveling thereby is extremely limited. My wife and I live and work downtown, but unfortunately we still need one car between the two of us for certain errands/trips. For example, to take the dogs to the vet, to go grocery shopping where it isn't outrageously priced, and to get to our parents' houses in the suburbs. 

6 minutes ago, smimes said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree that parking is the worst utilization of space period. But, anyone who would be able to afford these is used to traveling by car. Potential residents expect parking otherwise they'll pass. The waterfront line comes maybe every 30 min? And then, where to? We have to face the fact that Cleveland is not New York City. RTA is drastically underfunded and thus traveling thereby is extremely limited. My wife and I live and work downtown, but unfortunately we still need one car between the two of us for certain errands/trips. For example, to take the dogs to the vet, to go grocery shopping where it isn't outrageously priced, and to get to our parents' houses in the suburbs. 

I agree. I do not think you will find 1000 high end apartment dwellers without a car. This is not NYC. EVERY family has at least 1 car.

Sorry for this dense urban mentality but it will not fill without a place to park the car.

3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

The last thing needed in more parking.  There is public transportation right there.

Then good luck getting people there. The bottom line is the people who can afford to live in this development, the vast majority of them are going to be auto centric. We have to be realistic about the nature of the population where we live

Not would only Cleveland rail have to improve and expand beyond city limits but also the state of Ohio and the Midwest would have to get closer to East Coast standards. Still mad at Kasich for refusing 3-C rail money the feds were giving out. I think we I know this is the sad reality as of right now and don't see it changing anytime soon. 

21 hours ago, GISguy said:

Pretty sure .25 miles is the top limit for most american's to be cool with walking (?), I'm on my work computer or I'd google the study. Sounds like this would be in the sweetspot...minus the winter breeze off the lake - maybe the developers could have a shuttle of some sort or a MPLS tube system going on haha.

so we want a walkable neighborhood but  .25 mile is to far to walk to a train stop...???

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

One thing I’ve been thinking about (and this picture helps to illustrate) - how high will this land bridge need to be to clear the Shoreway as it exists now? I liked Ken’s plan for converting it into a boulevard; I just think that’s unlikely for political reasons. If the land bridge is really high to clear the Shoreway, will it also go over Lerner way? How much slope will it need to get back down to ground level? I’m really looking forward to seeing new renderings from whoever is driving this project. 

Some info here:

 

https://www.greenribbonlakefront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Land-Bridge-Proposal_GRC_2019-01-10_4.9.pdf

I think it would be an asset if we could get the superman museum and a browns HOF in the cumberland development....

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Then good luck getting people there. The bottom line is the people who can afford to live in this development, the vast majority of them are going to be auto centric. We have to be realistic about the nature of the population where we live

Just because you think they are now, that does not equate to how they will use public transportation in the future.  Someone moving to this area, may very well move so they can reduce car usage, eliminate the number of vehicles they own or lease or go car free.

29 minutes ago, lockdog said:

I think it would be an asset if we could get the superman museum and a browns HOF in the cumberland development....

It should be in the neighborhood.  Not downtown.  Not everything needs to be downtown.

2 hours ago, smimes said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree that parking is the worst utilization of space period. But, anyone who would be able to afford these is used to traveling by car. Potential residents expect parking otherwise they'll pass. The waterfront line comes maybe every 30 min? And then, where to? We have to face the fact that Cleveland is not New York City. RTA is drastically underfunded and thus traveling thereby is extremely limited. My wife and I live and work downtown, but unfortunately we still need one car between the two of us for certain errands/trips. For example, to take the dogs to the vet, to go grocery shopping where it isn't outrageously priced, and to get to our parents' houses in the suburbs. 

what makes you think the waterfront line, a major selling point, will not be adjusted for more residential traffic?  

Not one person is comparing Cleveland to NYC.

On the east and west sides of this developments are walk

 

With more residents, thinks like pet groomers, veterinarians, pet stores, pediatricians, hardware stores, etc.  The grocery store, you state is "outrageous", is at that price because those in the area can afford to pay prices asked. 

42 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

It should be in the neighborhood.  Not downtown.  Not everything needs to be downtown.

if siegel's home (I assume this is the neighborhood you're speaking of) could be combined with a museum and generate the traffic one would want....  I would agree with you....   

4 minutes ago, lockdog said:

if siegel's home (I assume this is the neighborhood you're speaking of) could be combined with a museum and generate the traffic one would want....  I would agree with you....   

Exactly.  It's a catalyst for that neighborhood.  The same as the "A Christmas Story" house is for Tremont.

4 hours ago, surfohio said:

Some info here:

 

https://www.greenribbonlakefront.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Land-Bridge-Proposal_GRC_2019-01-10_4.9.pdf

 

Thanks!

 

For those of you who, like me, had forgotten what the most recent renderings look like, here you go. And the answer to my question is that the land bridge would jog to the East to go over the Shoreway and Lerner Way where they are at lower relative elevation. 

 

 

And if the the mall is extended through the new dev to the lake:

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Thanks!

 

For those of you who, like me, had forgotten what the most recent renderings look like, here you go. And the answer to my question is that the land bridge would jog to the East to go over the Shoreway and Lerner Way where they are at lower relative elevation. 

 

 

And if the the mall is extended through the new dev to the lake:

 

 

 

Any plans on shoring up the old pedestrian bridge on the left to the stadium, or do they plan on knocking it down? its ugly as hell as it stands right now. Also, what's the latest word on the giant superman statue?

I like the balloons. Certainly good for the air traffic at BKL.  Re the Waterfront Line, yes, service may increase if this all this happens, but still where will people go? Other than Hopkins Airport, Little Italy, W. 25 St, the Terminal Tower (which can be walked to from here) and Shaker Sq, the rail system and the development around them as destinations is limited. If they can afford the rents/mortgage at the Lakefront, they're not jumping on a bus. We need more investments in rail.

1 minute ago, Pugu said:

I like the balloons. Certainly good for the air traffic at BKL.  Re the Waterfront Line, yes, service may increase if this all this happens, but still where will people go? Other than Hopkins Airport, Little Italy, W. 25 St, the Terminal Tower (which can be walked to from here) and Shaker Sq, the rail system and the development around them as destinations is limited. If they can afford the rents/mortgage at the Lakefront, they're not jumping on a bus. We need more investments in rail.

You may not be giving people enough credit.  Hell, I'm rich and I take the bus. 48, 10, 3 and the 81.  Hell I've even taken the 2 from the westside, but I wont do that again.

^I hope you're right!  But the bus has to be frequent enough. The last time I tried to take the bus, it was crazy. I took the Red Line from the Terminal Tower to West Blvd then tried to connect to a Detroit Ave bus into Lakewood. I waited and waited and then WALKED to Lakewood. I finally saw the first bus when I was already a few blocks in. And this was a weekday, 6pm. Never again. I guess one hope for the rail system is, now, I could have taken the train to West Blvd, then jumped into a Lyft or Uber---those companies weren't around then, or if they were, were not widely used.

 

PS--that's great, though, that you take the bus even when you (likely) have options. Hope there are more out there like you than me!