1 hour ago, GISguy said:

Yuck

Does anyone have an aerial view that includes the Hanna Fountains?

Street level comparison , Mall B (post Hanna Fountains).

31 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Does anyone have an aerial view that includes the Hanna Fountains?

 

Not a great aerial view, but some good pics in this old UO thread: 

 

2 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

 

Not a great aerial view, but some good pics in this old UO thread: 

 

Okay those are cool, much better than the concrete sidewalk wasteland they were filled in with. What we have now seems to be an improvement over what came after the fountains, at least people are out on the lawns and whatnot.

Here's an aerial view: http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/press/id/4677/rec/15 

22 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

Mall B/C prior to 2011 reconstruction 

 

What if the bridge to the Browns stadium were simply updated and instead of turning to the left to go to the stadium, the end of the bridge ramped to the right to the intermodal station?  Would that be the lowest-cost bridge over the tracks?

3 hours ago, StapHanger said:

Here's an aerial view: http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/press/id/4677/rec/15 

Thanks StapHanger. At least people are seen enjoying the fountains. I used to love the light display at night.

3 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Thanks StapHanger. At least people are seen enjoying the fountains. I used to love the light display at night.

The lawn isnt always active, however at lunch time and after theres people hanging out, dogs running, etc. Its far from a dead spot, I'd venture to bet the fountains were a dead zone outside of lunch time during the week. Not to mention the countless concerts and events that take place there.

 

I'm a transplant, so for better or worse, all I have are pics and to me, a sidewalk jungle isn't what I personally want for that space. I've enjoyed tons of amazing events on the mall since I've moved here about four years ago, something that probably wasnt possible with fountains.

15 hours ago, GISguy said:

The lawn isnt always active, however at lunch time and after theres people hanging out, dogs running, etc. Its far from a dead spot, I'd venture to bet the fountains were a dead zone outside of lunch time during the week. Not to mention the countless concerts and events that take place there.

 

I'm a transplant, so for better or worse, all I have are pics and to me, a sidewalk jungle isn't what I personally want for that space. I've enjoyed tons of amazing events on the mall since I've moved here about four years ago, something that probably wasnt possible with fountains.

I was born and raised in CLE and during the mid-to-late '70's, the Hanna Fountains were a destination on the mall.

On 8/22/2019 at 10:31 AM, Cleburger said:

It's a shame we cant get a fully built and restored model moved there.   Would be an excellent addition to the Science museum~!  This little statue hardly does the real machine any justice! 

Sounds like your wish came true. According to Cleve.com, the Landmarks Commission gave approval for installation of the Hulett on dock 32.

On 8/22/2019 at 10:31 AM, Cleburger said:

It's a shame we cant get a fully built and restored model moved there.   Would be an excellent addition to the Science museum~!  This little statue hardly does the real machine any justice! 

 

22 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Sounds like your wish came true. According to Cleve.com, the Landmarks Commission gave approval for installation of the Hulett on dock 32.

 

Thats not what’s happening. The tribute installation only uses the arm of the apparatus. It might be 1/5th of a complete Hulett. 

 

I do like the tribute. I think it’s a nice design. I think it will help teach Cleveland history. And most importantly, there are people willing to pay for it. But let’s not pretend it will be anything nearly as impressive as actually installing a full-blown Hulett. 

 

Perhaps this installation will raise awareness to the point where someone would be willing to pay the millions necessary for a full installation.  

Edited August 25, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian
Typo

 

@rockandroller - I’m curious to know how the panel discussion went. Did the multi-modal transportation center @KJP has been advocating for as a part of the land bridge come up?

 

If you scroll up and also to the previous page you’ll see more posts on this topic. 

 

On 8/21/2019 at 11:56 AM, KJP said:

Bridging the gap: How to connect downtown and the lakefront

https://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/downtownlandbridge082119.aspx

 

And here's how to pay for it (or something similar):

 

Cleveland can energize its lakefront in 10 years. Here's how...

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/06/cleveland-can-energize-its-lakefront-in.html

 

On 8/21/2019 at 1:17 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

From the article:

”The Green Ribbon Coalition, a grassroots group that advocates for a continuous ribbon of green along the Lake Erie and Cuyahoga River waterfronts, will host a panel discussion Tuesday, Aug. 27, at 8 a.m., at Merwin's Wharf. “Harbor Face-off: Iconic Footbridge vs. the Landbridge” will feature proponents for competing proposals to connect the harbor to downtown. The pros and cons of each approach will be discussed.”

 

Sounds interesting but I can’t go. Hopefully it is live-streamed somewhere.  

 

11 hours ago, rockandroller said:

I went to a meeting moderated by the Green Building Coalition today and @KJP's name came up with his All Aboard Ohio work (praise for some sort of plan you've proposed). They were talking about landbridge vs. footbridge. Is there a discussion thread about this? I admit I am brand new to this group, issue, the architect panelists, etc so I apologize if this is old hat.

Hi! Yes, the multimodal center was discussed. There was a lot of history that I don't think necessarily needed to be there. While the presentations about the history of the project were certainly interesting, I could have done with half as much information and twice as much discussion. Because the presenters took the entire allotted time, there was only time for like 2 or 3 questions and no real debate or discussion. Still, very interesting. I was disappointed not to see more diversity. The future of and access to our lakefront is an issue affecting all Clevelanders, yet all four panelists and the moderator were white guys and out of the 50 or so all-white attendees, I was one of only 4 women. It was the only such meeting I've been to of course and may not be representative of the entire group and their interests, but it was something I noticed. Takeaway is that we've been talking about this problem literally for like a century and there hasn't ever been a plan that everyone agreed to and that has funding and gets done, which I found to be disappointing. Now that there are so many more players in the mix who all have a vested interest and say in what happens (transit systems, tourist attractions, parking garage owners) it sounded to me like it would be even more difficult to accomplish.

I did speak up at the end in opposition to one guy's statement that because we don't have any state or federal funding to better RTA we should ask the taxpayers to fund it and I was like yeah that's a big nope from me, we need to pressure our state to fund transit similarly to other nearby states.

^ Thanks for the overview. I'd think having more stakeholders makes it more likely to get done, since there's more funding opportunity. The multimodel center for example had buy-in from Amtrak, Greyhound, and RTA.

1 hour ago, rockandroller said:

Hi! Yes, the multimodal center was discussed. There was a lot of history that I don't think necessarily needed to be there. While the presentations about the history of the project were certainly interesting, I could have done with half as much information and twice as much discussion. Because the presenters took the entire allotted time, there was only time for like 2 or 3 questions and no real debate or discussion. Still, very interesting. I was disappointed not to see more diversity. The future of and access to our lakefront is an issue affecting all Clevelanders, yet all four panelists and the moderator were white guys and out of the 50 or so all-white attendees, I was one of only 4 women. It was the only such meeting I've been to of course and may not be representative of the entire group and their interests, but it was something I noticed. Takeaway is that we've been talking about this problem literally for like a century and there hasn't ever been a plan that everyone agreed to and that has funding and gets done, which I found to be disappointing. Now that there are so many more players in the mix who all have a vested interest and say in what happens (transit systems, tourist attractions, parking garage owners) it sounded to me like it would be even more difficult to accomplish.

I did speak up at the end in opposition to one guy's statement that because we don't have any state or federal funding to better RTA we should ask the taxpayers to fund it and I was like yeah that's a big nope from me, we need to pressure our state to fund transit similarly to other nearby states.

I'm sure that many of the local communities impacted had:

1. Little to no knowledge of the event

2.  Are more concerned with meeting the needs of daily living

3.  Are apathetic due to decades-long promises and leadership inaction

I didn't know of the event.

It was apparently posted upthread but I haven't been on here as much lately so I wouldn't have known about it but for the invite I received.

56 minutes ago, KJP said:

I didn't know of the event.

There was an article in Freshwater Cleveland indicating that they would review the land bridge proposal, Rosales concept and a new interest in a "grand" plan to include multimodal trans center.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

I didn't know of the event.

 

Haha - I learned about the event from the article you posted! ?

Edited August 28, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian

8 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Haha - I learned about the event from the article you posted! ?

 

I'm glad someone is reading the articles I share, even if I don't always read them! ? That's OK, I probably wouldn't have gone to the event even if I had known about it. 

On 5/10/2019 at 2:06 PM, Taller_is_better said:

Don’t know that I had seen the Port’s rfp and conceptual renders for the customs building. 

 

http://www.portofcleveland.com/media/1323/port-of-cleveland-cruise-terminal-conceptual-exterior-renderings-public.pdf

 

Snapped a photo leaving the Browns game Thursday. Exciting to see this underway. 

Litt discusses the mall to lakefront connection. He is advocating for a proper land bridge and even discusses converting the Shoreway to a boulevard. I’m glad he’s calling more attention to this. He includes comments about the panel discussion from last week. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/09/lakefront-pedestrian-bridge-debate-going-nowhere-fast-as-city-stays-mum-on-topic-steven-litt.html

 

Good point: “All of those ideas make sense and should be explored. Redoing the Shoreway and taking out the bridge ramp may sound like long shots, but participants in the Green Ribbon forum said the completion of the Opportunity Corridor boulevard south of downtown in 2021 could funnel east-west traffic off the lakefront.”

 

Some interesting concepts that I hadn’t seen before, including a recent Pace proposal which looks pretty good:

 

 

And an older Pace proposal with some nice looking towers framing the Mall, but some odd choices, specifically not having the multi-modal transit center directly connected to north of the Shoreway. 

 

 

Phases 1A and 1C seem like non-starters since that would block lake views from City Hall. (Again, this is an older design. If I read it correctly, the first image above is Pace’s most recent suggestion.)

 

 

Lakefront Master Plans Open House 
Wednesday, Sept. 18, 5-7pm
Our Lady of Mt. Carmel Gymnasium, 1355 West 70th Street 

Please join Cleveland Metroparks staff at the Open House to share your ideas for the future of the lakefront parks. Master Plans for Lakefront Reservation (Edgewater Park) and the lakefront portion of Euclid Creek Reservation are being updated for the next two to twenty years.

Plans and comment forms are also online at http://clevelandmetroparks.com/reservationplans 
 

Edgewater Park

Parking and Traffic Flow • Consider parking management efforts in the main lot to encourage carpooling, biking, walking or transit 

 

So, does this mean a paid parking lot? If so, that's going to be controversial. Doesn't the fact the lot is super crowded already encourage these other options?

2 minutes ago, surfohio said:

Edgewater Park

Parking and Traffic Flow • Consider parking management efforts in the main lot to encourage carpooling, biking, walking or transit 

 

So, does this mean a paid parking lot? If so, that's going to be controversial. Doesn't the fact the lot is super crowded already encourage these other options?

 

It seems it will be an option, yes.

^ I could be wrong, but it seems any proposal to charge for parking is just going to make the bottleneck traffic situation even worse. 

 

Sand dunes and more natural habitat areas are a big plus. 

This is an idea I put together regarding Convention Center expansion but It also involves the proposed land bridge, so here you go...

On 9/8/2019 at 9:55 PM, freethink said:

This is an idea I put together regarding Convention Center expansion but It also involves the proposed land bridge, so here you go...

That's a great idea regarding a Convention Center expansion that also involves the proposed land bridge.

 

My IDEA that I've been working on for a while now is for a combination of a LAND BRIDGE and CONVENTION 

CENTER EXPANSION.That would provide a landscaped NEW MALL D area which is approximately 400 feet wide and approximately 450-500 feet long that would also accommodate extra meeting rooms and more exhibition space.  It would provide a 20-27 foot clearance underneath for double stacked trains.  And if it keeps the same elevation as the existing Mall C and Convention Center it would provide plenty of room underneath for a New Multi Modal Transportation Center as KJP has suggested in the past as well as the existing Shoreway.  And it would also provide plenty of room underneath near the Science Center and the newly ADDED DOME Browns Stadium for retail,  maybe a hotel, connections to both facilities, and elevators and stairs to the ground level plaza.

 

And as a ADDED BONUS if the BROWNS STADIUM has a DOME added to it and it's directly connected to the expanded Convention Center then it's floor/field area could be included in the total amount of exhibition space. As other cities do like INDIANAPOLIS.

 

EDIT:

I know that adding an additional 100,000+ sq. ft. of exhibition space and meeting rooms will be an expensive long teem project. 

 

But by added a Land Bridge it will totally change the look, access and usefulness of the CLEVELAND LAKEFRONT!! 

 

And it will help to ensure the success of both Pace's New Lakefront Development and any new plans for BROWNS FIRST ENERGY STADIUM too!

Edited September 10, 20195 yr by Larry1962
Added sq. ft. of expanded Convention Center

Downtown CLE currently doesn't compete for very large conventions because the facilities to house such conventions don't exist downtown.  Convention fees and hotel taxes make these types of facilities viable in places like Indy.  An expanded convention center, funded by out-of-town conventioneers, that doubles as a land bridge to connect the lakefront to downtown seems like a Win-Win-Win.  

I'm not familiar with the convention world at all. Is it possible the big convention  market is already well saturated? Or is it the type of cutthroat sector where the newest and nicest facilities get the bookings? Its sounds like a good way to get the ball rolling on a land bridge (in combination with multi modal transit hub) but I wonder if we would be building new convention infrastructure with little ROI.

Edited September 9, 20195 yr by viscomi

2 hours ago, viscomi said:

I'm not familiar with the convention world at all. Is it possible the big convention  market is already well saturated? Or is it the type of cutthroat sector where the newest and nicest facilities get the bookings? Its sounds like a good way to get the ball rolling on a land bridge (in combination with multi modal transit hub) but I wonder if we would be building new convention infrastructure with little ROI.

 

It's been pretty well brutalized since 9/11/2001.    

 

Most conventions go to destinations like Orlando, NOLA and Vegas for weather and "extracurricular" activities.   

 

Others go to government centers (like Indy) or business centers (like NYC and Chicago) for reasons that suit their clientele. 

 

Cleveland would face an uphill battle competing against many of these, but I could see us getting some high-profile health care business if the Clinic got behind it.  

19 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

It's been pretty well brutalized since 9/11/2001.    

 

Most conventions go to destinations like Orlando, NOLA and Vegas for weather and "extracurricular" activities.   

 

Others go to government centers (like Indy) or business centers (like NYC and Chicago) for reasons that suit their clientele. 

 

Cleveland would face an uphill battle competing against many of these, but I could see us getting some high-profile health care business if the Clinic got behind it.  

 

911 accelerated a trend that was already in place, a major deemphasis on business travel, including conventions.  This is quite welcome to a lot of us who used to have to do it.   Nothing like blowing an entire workday, plus, for a one hour meeting.

On 9/9/2019 at 1:58 PM, Cleburger said:

 

It's been pretty well brutalized since 9/11/2001.    

 

Most conventions go to destinations like Orlando, NOLA and Vegas for weather and "extracurricular" activities.   

 

Others go to government centers (like Indy) or business centers (like NYC and Chicago) for reasons that suit their clientele. 

 

Cleveland would face an uphill battle competing against many of these, but I could see us getting some high-profile health care business if the Clinic got behind it.  

It's true that we CAN'T compete with the top convention centers.

 

BUT we can and should compete with our peers like COLUMBUS which has a convention center that's nearly double our size! 

If we can't beat COLUMBUS, then should get out of the business totally!

 

If we added 30 to 50 new meeting rooms and also expanded the exhibition space, we could compete with PITTSBURGH, COLUMBUS, NASHVILLE, and others in this area of the country!

Edited September 18, 20195 yr by Larry1962

50 minutes ago, Larry1962 said:

If we can't beat a "Cow Town", then should get out of the business totally!

Is this comment really necessary? Besides being dramatic, it's also incendiary. The "Cow Town" moniker is outdated; Columbus has come a long way over the last several decades and has made amazing strides in infill and a shift towards more dense, urban projects throughout the city. We do not succeed by putting other cities down and Ohio is blessed to have three, distinct, vibrant cities.

 

And who says we're failing in the convention business? From the articles I've seen it looks like we are doing well and growing, but that there are improvements that can be made to attract more and larger events...and that's not a failure. We should always be striving to improve and I think that there are steps that can be taken to make our convention business stronger; like building more hotels with meeting spaces, expansion of convention center over the railroad tracks (which if done in conjunction w/ lakefront transit center could have far greater impact on our city), or other options that have no doubt been discussed in this and other, more appropriate threads like this one.

8 hours ago, andrew0816 said:

Is this comment really necessary? Besides being dramatic, it's also incendiary. The "Cow Town" moniker is outdated; Columbus has come a long way over the last several decades and has made amazing strides in infill and a shift towards more dense, urban projects throughout the city. We do not succeed by putting other cities down and Ohio is blessed to have three, distinct, vibrant cities.

 

Columbus is also the center of state government in Ohio, which gives it a head start in attracting any statewide conventions, just like in Indianapolis, etc. 

Each of the three "Cs" has their own unique qualities that should be marketed accordingly to attract conventions. Unlike the other two, Cleveland benefits from world-reknowned, outstanding arts & culture (CMA, PHSF, CO, RRHF, etc.)3 pro-sports team venues, top-world ranked medical facilities, proximity to Cedar Point/Lake Erie islands and a dense urban core.

 

Are these advantages being appropriately marketed to conventioners?

Edited September 10, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

 

Columbus is also the center of state government in Ohio, which gives it a head start in attracting any statewide conventions, just like in Indianapolis, etc. 

 

Just by being the geographic center they get a lot of meeting business. Anything related to education, state or local government always meets in Columbus.

I don't feel these conversations about the convention center should be centered around the lakefront thread. This would mean the Hilton is included right? So i'm going to create a separate topic for the convention center.

 

Yes it provides some pretty good views down east 9th towards the lake, but so does every building downtown.

Can we start a discussion of why the Soap Box Derby track takes up that prime piece of real estate? You could literally put that anywhere. All you need is a slight hill. It’s for one weekend a year, and isn’t that large of a draw. 

Edited September 10, 20195 yr by marty15

^ I don't think there will be developers pushing hard for that site while others exist nearby, and the current odors continue to permeate. I always catch the strongest whiffs going by the derby track.

I wonder what happened that the odors have been so bad for the past year-ish.  I don't remember it being that bad before.  Sucks for the people who've purchased homes in that area in the last couple years at high prices, just to have the neighborhood constantly smell like sewer.  Sucks for the people that have lived there a long time, too, of course!

From what I remember the smell has always been bad over there.

As a general rule, don't be downwind of the sewer plant.

Doesn't seem to be an issue on the shore east of the Easterly plant though.

Yeah I feel like there's lots of plants around that don't have the smell one.  There's one in the Rocky River Valley right on the west end of Lakewood / East of Rocky River that I've spent a lot of time in the general vicinity of and have never got any fumes from it.  I wonder if there's some type of design deficiency at the one on the shoreway there.

On 9/10/2019 at 10:00 AM, Frmr CLEder said:

Each of the three "Cs" has their own unique qualities that should be marketed accordingly to attract conventions. Unlike the other two, Cleveland benefits from world-reknowned, outstanding arts & culture (CMA, PHSF, CO, RRHF, etc.)3 pro-sports team venues, top-world ranked medical facilities, proximity to Cedar Point/Lake Erie islands and a dense urban core.

 

Are these advantages being appropriately marketed to conventioners?

Toledo (pop.275K) gets no respect from the 3Cs even though it's only slightly smaller than Cincinnati (pop. 299K). Ohio should be recognised as having four significant cities rather than three imo.

12 minutes ago, shack said:

Toledo (pop.275K) gets no respect from the 3Cs even though it's only slightly smaller than Cincinnati (pop. 299K). Ohio should be recognised as having four significant cities rather than three imo.

While completely irrelevant to this thread, Toledo's MSA is smaller than Akron and Dayton.

Urgent request ... can somebody find me a pic of that old design competition entry for bridging the Shoreway from about a decade ago ... the one with the wavy/undulating white steps that almost evoked a Santiago Calatrava Design?

 

I’m at a party with a high ranking city official and we are chatting about projects. I brought that old design up and he said he didn’t recall it. Thanks!