September 29, 20204 yr ^ Disappointing, but if I had to choose one sacrificial project to be nixed by the Covid economy, this would be the one. My hovercraft is full of eels
September 30, 20204 yr 10 hours ago, roman totale XVII said: ^ Disappointing, but if I had to choose one sacrificial project to be nixed by the Covid economy, this would be the one. Agreed. Just curious - what's the general opinion on the forum of how desirable that parcel of land might be down the road? I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't been developed previously - seems like it could be a really awesome spot if something with some imagination was built there. What we saw in the renderings previously was pretty apartment-blah.
September 30, 20204 yr Well, the parcel is on the lakefront which is desirable, but the area seems to be somewhat of a no-mans land currently, separated by the shoreway and nothing within walking distance. And I assume anything built there would be height-restricted due to the airport.
September 30, 20204 yr Maybe they will herd sheep there again. https://www.farmanddairy.com/news/sheep-in-the-city/427614.html
September 30, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, skiwest said: Well, the parcel is on the lakefront which is desirable, but the area seems to be somewhat of a no-mans land currently, separated by the shoreway and nothing within walking distance. And I assume anything built there would be height-restricted due to the airport. They are actually able to build pretty high there. Here is what I reported earlier this year...... On the other hand, the area to the west of the utilities' equipment could be redeveloped with new residential and commercial structures up to 115 feet high (about 11 stories), according to existing zoning. This acknowledges the site's proximity to Burke Lakefront Airport. Federal Aviation Administration regulations restrict building heights to 250 feet between 4,000 and 10,000 feet from the end of a runway and near its flight path, the FirstEnergy report noted. https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/06/moving-i-90-option-in-new-odot.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 30, 20204 yr @KJP( and like minded forum folk) think you’re a big Burke supporter - but IF it was moved eastward and that lakefront parcel was rezoned a la the Flats West Bank - couldn’t it then become a perfect place for a “Viaduct Tower” type residential tower or two? Seems like that combination of very private lake and skyline views would be an easy sell. This is completely hypothetical at the moment obviously but imagine the potential of a Gold Coast type neighborhood directly north of downtown with a boardwalk and bike path just behind it -Add the rock hall, science center and Browns stadium for your western view - wow.
September 30, 20204 yr I'm not a big Burke supporter. I just don't think it's going anywhere. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 30, 20204 yr Maybe the highest and best use for this land is as a bead in the string of lakefront parks that we're trying to build.
September 30, 20204 yr 42 minutes ago, X said: Maybe the highest and best use for this land is as a bead in the string of lakefront parks that we're trying to build. I think Burke can coexist with this vision. We just need a greenway around the outer edge of the airport to connect the lakefront.
October 1, 20204 yr 5 hours ago, CleveFan said: imagine the potential of a Gold Coast type neighborhood directly north of downtown with a boardwalk and bike path just behind it -Add the rock hall, science center and Browns stadium for your western view - wow. That vision is tempting, but I believe the practical problem that has been raised in similar hypothetical conversations is that fill dirt/reclaimed land is not suitable for foundations of large structures, not to mention the glacial timeline for getting Burke closed and the fact that it's disconnected from the street grid and doesn't have all the infrastructure. Having the land off E 55th be in a taller height district without Burke around would boost the appeal to that property though. I like your aspirational and optimistic thinking, the city needs more of that. I'm personally excited for a land-bridge/multi-modal transportation center and for the re-routing of I-90 and restoration of Gordon Park. I can only imagine that those efforts and things like Budish's lakefront trail plan inspired by Euclid would all contribute to further spinoff lakefront development activity.
October 2, 20204 yr On 9/30/2020 at 5:15 PM, KJP said: I'm not a big Burke supporter. I just don't think it's going anywhere. Why do people who are so obsessed with developing Burke conveniently leave out the fact that the shoreway is the primary barrier to any lakefront development?
October 7, 20204 yr North Coast Harbor posted an RFP today for an “improvement plan” that can encompass landscaping, drainage, potential attractions, and more.
October 8, 20204 yr On 10/1/2020 at 8:52 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said: Why do people who are so obsessed with developing Burke conveniently leave out the fact that the shoreway is the primary barrier to any lakefront development? Burke isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Based upon other airport closures, it can take more than 20 years for the FAA to agree to closure (Santa Monica Airport). As for the lakefront, I think the biggest obstacle are the RR tracks, which short of creating a tunnel or land bridge, pose the most significant obstacle to lakefront development. Edited October 8, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder
October 8, 20204 yr 15 hours ago, BJBaes said: North Coast Harbor posted an RFP today for an “improvement plan” that can encompass landscaping, drainage, potential attractions, and more. Yikes, the county provides much higher res aerials for no charge. Maybe they got this from google? But oof. For the curious: https://gis.cuyahogacounty.us/html5viewer/?viewer=cegis And if you want oblique imagery click the 'Eagleview' tab. Back on subject- that area could use some love, especially the part that goes below the rock hall. That's a really neat vantage point and really, you don't realize it's there unless you randomly find yourself walking that way. Speaking of, I'm assuming with covid it's on hold, but an expansion of the hall towards the science ctr. would change this space too...
October 8, 20204 yr Ooooh! Thanks ? I live 380 miles away, and now I know. Should I be surprised that local government pros don't know how to use this product?
October 8, 20204 yr 3 hours ago, ExPatClevGuy said: Ooooh! Thanks ? I live 380 miles away, and now I know. Should I be surprised that local government pros don't know how to use this product? lol as a local gov person, it's partially on us too. People don't know what they don't know! But seriously, it's a great resource (especially when looking back on spots). Glad you find it useful!!
October 8, 20204 yr On this afternoon's DCA webinar Mike Carney from Landmark stated that their plans for the Shoreline phase 2 will still be moving forward, but not breaking ground now until early 2022. The plans will also incorporate a public park.
October 12, 20204 yr Some beautiful overhead shots on the broadcast of today’s Browns game (The 4-1 Browns!) showcasing the lakefront. The immediate area around and north of the Rock Hall looked great - the parcel north of Browns stadium made me cringe a bit. Don't think we’ve heard anything new about that area - but I would love to see something great finally get done this decade. Perhaps the future of Browns stadium itself is the linchpin for the lakefront plan.
October 13, 20204 yr https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/destinations/2019/10/26/25-most-affordable-waterfront-cities-america/2455512001/ Nothing news-breaking here - but I happened to come across an almost one year-old list from the USA Today while giving further thought to Cleveland's waterfront potential. Check out the list and the only real urban competition for Cleveland comes from Buffalo, Toledo and throw in Rochester, NY which has a population of about 200,000. The top 25 destinations list is populated by places like Duluth, Minnesota and Atlantic, New Jersey - I think you get the point. Cleveland is by far the richest city in terms of culture, entertainment, sports and a real urban experience. Living on a true waterfront remains extremely desirable and increasingly, economically unattainable for most Americans. And yet, that opportunity is still within reach in Cleveland - a status that is virtually unique among major metropolitan areas across the country. But has the city presented many options for residing directly on the waterfront? There are some buildings with a view to the lake - the obvious new, big projects such as Lumen and Beacon would qualify. Still, I wonder how a new residential high-rise, right on the lakefront -downtown - would do in attracting new renters. I'm not sure where such a high rise would even be located - maybe some of you have a suggestion. I guess "Shoreline 2" is a nice step in that direction - albeit a somewhat uninspired one, IMHO. Just can't help feeling that we're still not fostering the full potential of the awesome resource we've got right in front of us on Lake Erie's shoreline.
October 13, 20204 yr ^Lakeside has the most unrealized potential of any street downtown. Think about it- past East 13th the uses include the WKYC and the regional FBI headquarters (which killed any potential urbanity for that stretch of the street), City EMS training, a bunch of parking lots, a power plant, the main men’s homeless shelter for the city, etc. i think the municipal uses could be moved if there was enough interest in developing the street. The parking lots are a blank slate as well. That could be a completely different stretch of downtown if the demand was there.
October 13, 20204 yr As I was walking down to the NorthCoast harbor last night, as I do most nights, I pass Williard Park and always wonder...Why does a major intersection on 9th and Lakeside have a never used patch of grass? Move the Free Stamp and it would be a fantastic spot for an apartment or condo tower. Fantastic views of the lake and downtown.
October 13, 20204 yr 11 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said: ^Lakeside has the most unrealized potential of any street downtown. Think about it- past East 13th the uses include the WKYC and the regional FBI headquarters (which killed any potential urbanity for that stretch of the street), City EMS training, a bunch of parking lots, a power plant, the main men’s homeless shelter for the city, etc. i think the municipal uses could be moved if there was enough interest in developing the street. The parking lots are a blank slate as well. That could be a completely different stretch of downtown if the demand was there. Totally agree. Before WKYC and the FBI were there, those bluffs would have made a great location for high rise apartments overlooking the lake. There was talk of moving the FBI to a suburban location, whatever happened with that? I'm not suggesting bulldozing that compound (although it could happen) but reworking the building to have a more urban feel. Also, not far from there is the giant parking lot with the Crazy Horse. A building there would tie the area to downtown.
October 13, 20204 yr ^ Bottom line is that the stretch of Lakeside, east of East 9th Street is full of possibilities for future growth and development (actually, everything north of St. Clair beyond E. 12th). Perhaps an extension of what has started with the Avenue District will prove to be increased development in that area of the CBD. Edited October 13, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder
October 13, 20204 yr As far as I know the FBI/ATF building is moving but, as we know, government moves slowly. But consider that the public sector owns almost all of the land along and near the lakefront yet it is not publicly accessible nor does it directly generate any property tax revenues.... + Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority + City of Cleveland (former port-leased warehouses, North Coast Harbor/Voinovich Park/Rock Hall/Science Center, Burke Lakefront Airport, municipal parking lots, Water Department offices, several buildings for Cleveland Public Power, EMS offices, Dept. of Public Works offices/garage, First Energy Stadium which the public cannot use 350+ days per year, etc) + USA (Army Corps of Engineers, US Coast Guard) + Cuyahoga County (Dept. of Developmental Disabilities building) + Ohio Department of Transportation (US Route 2/Interstate 90/Shoreway) + GCRTA Waterfront Line + Amtrak East 26th Street Yard (FYI Amtrak doesn't own its lakefront station, it has a no-rent lease with the city) Those are a few off the top of my head -- and that's just the land at the north edge of downtown. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 13, 20204 yr 6 minutes ago, KJP said: As far as I know the FBI/ATF building is moving but, as we know, government moves slowly. But consider that the public sector owns almost all of the land along and near the lakefront yet it is not publicly accessible nor does it directly generate any property tax revenues.... + Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority + City of Cleveland (former port-leased warehouses, North Coast Harbor/Voinovich Park/Rock Hall/Science Center, Burke Lakefront Airport, municipal parking lots, Water Department offices, several buildings for Cleveland Public Power, EMS offices, Dept. of Public Works offices/garage, First Energy Stadium which the public cannot use 350+ days per year, etc) + USA (Army Corps of Engineers, US Coast Guard) + Cuyahoga County (Dept. of Developmental Disabilities building) + Ohio Department of Transportation (US Route 2/Interstate 90/Shoreway) + GCRTA Waterfront Line + Amtrak East 26th Street Yard (FYI Amtrak doesn't own its lakefront station, it has a no-rent lease with the city) Those are a few off the top of my head -- and that's just the land at the north edge of downtown. Where is the FBI moving to? Hopefully it’s still in the city
October 13, 20204 yr 19 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said: Where is the FBI moving to? Hopefully it’s still in the city I've heard it could be in the Seven Hills-Independence area. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 13, 20204 yr 4 hours ago, mack34 said: As I was walking down to the NorthCoast harbor last night, as I do most nights, I pass Williard Park and always wonder...Why does a major intersection on 9th and Lakeside have a never used patch of grass? Move the Free Stamp and it would be a fantastic spot for an apartment or condo tower. Fantastic views of the lake and downtown. I would like more of a park developed there instead. Getting rid of the Free Stamp (a symbol of public art and space and the common rallying point for vigils and protests against tragedy and inhumanity) for condos is ironic at best.
October 13, 20204 yr 35 minutes ago, Cavalier Attitude said: I would like more of a park developed there instead. Getting rid of the Free Stamp (a symbol of public art and space and the common rallying point for vigils and protests against tragedy and inhumanity) for condos is ironic at best. No one suggested getting rid of the free stamp. It was suggested that it could be moved. People could still congregate around the stamp at a different location while allowing some underutilized land to be put to a different purpose.
October 13, 20204 yr 10 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said: No one suggested getting rid of the free stamp. It was suggested that it could be moved. People could still congregate around the stamp at a different location while allowing some underutilized land to be put to a different purpose. Mall C would be close enough surely
October 13, 20204 yr I don't trust the city to move something like that and not break it ? either way, I have wanted a more proper park there for a while. I'm not opposed to new buildings, but not in that particular spot of real estate. Still many other good places around before we start chewing into public green space. I don't think we have enough good green space and that area really just needs a little bump of park infrastructure since the land is already green (ish), public, and maintained. A third of it has benches and pathing so it just looks incomplete right now.
October 20, 20204 yr Actually, the kickoff was a year ago, but ok...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 12, 20204 yr Christ people, can you at least look at the most recent post on a thread before responding to a month and a half old off topic post?
November 29, 20204 yr Progress on the pedestrian bridge between Voinovich Park and the back of the Science Center/ Rock Hall. This makes me hopeful that the final product will look better than the renderings. My hovercraft is full of eels
December 3, 20204 yr Dec 3 agenda Ordinance No. 938-2020(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into an agreement with the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission to implement and manage the demolition and removal of Docks 30 and 32 warehouses and for demolition-related remediation to the site which is needed to stage the 2021 NFL Draft at North Coast Harbor; and to amend Section 2 of Ordinance No. 1028-28, passed January 11, 2019, relating to major events to add the Department of Port Control to the list of departments that may apply for and accept gifts and grants and enter into agreements relative to an event being held on their property.
December 3, 20204 yr Cleveland Sports Commission does so much right.......but having the Draft (if it happens) on an empty parking lot on the edge of Lake Erie in April is ridiculous.
December 3, 20204 yr 21 minutes ago, mack34 said: Cleveland Sports Commission does so much right.......but having the Draft (if it happens) on an empty parking lot on the edge of Lake Erie in April is ridiculous. They better dust off a million square feet of an unused IX Center as a backup...
December 3, 20204 yr 42 minutes ago, mack34 said: Cleveland Sports Commission does so much right.......but having the Draft (if it happens) on an empty parking lot on the edge of Lake Erie in April is ridiculous. It’s especially frustrating when the MLB All Star game attractions on the Mall and in the Convention Center did so well - that’s the PERFECT spot for this event. I can’t figure out what they’re thinking. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
December 3, 20204 yr 11 hours ago, freethink said: Dec 3 agenda Ordinance No. 938-2020(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into an agreement with the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission to implement and manage the demolition and removal of Docks 30 and 32 warehouses and for demolition-related remediation to the site which is needed to stage the 2021 NFL Draft at North Coast Harbor; and to amend Section 2 of Ordinance No. 1028-28, passed January 11, 2019, relating to major events to add the Department of Port Control to the list of departments that may apply for and accept gifts and grants and enter into agreements relative to an event being held on their property. I think the bigger questions are--are the warehouses on those docks no longer used or viable? certainly not worth destroying for a sporting event if they are. Also, isn't it strange that the sports commission will implement the demolition and removal?
December 3, 20204 yr 28 minutes ago, Pugu said: I think the bigger questions are--are the warehouses on those docks no longer used or viable? certainly not worth destroying for a sporting event if they are. Also, isn't it strange that the sports commission will implement the demolition and removal? When I first read the posted agenda item the first thing that came to my mind was the demolition is in conjunction with the mystery plans for lakefront development now that the Haslams are involved. I can't imagine they are being torn down just for the draft. I guess we will see. Edited December 3, 20204 yr by Htsguy
December 3, 20204 yr This sounds like using big event money as site prep for future development money.
December 3, 20204 yr I would think they would want to keep a warehouse handy in case they need to protect themselves from a lake effect snowstorm.
December 3, 20204 yr Are those the 2 docks that d*ck Pace was planning on converting before he was dropped by the City of Cleveland ?
December 3, 20204 yr 4 minutes ago, simplythis said: Are those the 2 docks that d*ck Pace was planning on converting before he was dropped by the City of Cleveland ? Yes. But he later changed the master plan to raze the warehouses and replace them with multi-family buildings. Here's the article in which I wrote about it: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/09/lakefront-development-project-to-start.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 3, 20204 yr 2 hours ago, X said: This sounds like using big event money as site prep for future development money. Exactly this. They found a way to get someone to pay for demolition of the warehouses.
December 3, 20204 yr 3 hours ago, Pugu said: I think the bigger questions are--are the warehouses on those docks no longer used or viable? certainly not worth destroying for a sporting event if they are. Also, isn't it strange that the sports commission will implement the demolition and removal? I can't speak to their structural condition, but anyone who was at Ingenuity Fest there saw just how great the warehouses were as event space. It is a shame that they're not being renovated because I feel that Ingenuity set the perfect example of what an organic, realistic and tenable solution for lakefront development is all about.
December 3, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, freefourur said: Exactly this. They found a way to get someone to pay for demolition of the warehouses. I think you nailed it. This could also explain the odd decision in not using the mall as the site as the MLB did, which worked perfectly. We could see something like what they did in Chicago in 2015 for the NFL draft. Something weather protected.
December 3, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, surfohio said: I can't speak to their structural condition, but anyone who was at Ingenuity Fest there saw just how great the warehouses were as event space. It is a shame that they're not being renovated because I feel that Ingenuity set the perfect example of what an organic, realistic and tenable solution for lakefront development is all about. As an open event space, yes they are great. The problem is repurposing them in their location into some kind of apartment or housing. I’m fairly certain there is nothing that is salvageable from those 100+yr old warehouse buildings converting into housing. The standards then are nowhere near the standards now. I’m personally not sold that there are going to be many people that want to live by the stadium and on the lake and pay through the nose for almost 6 months of winter. Certainly not also live in a repurposed warehouse.
December 3, 20204 yr 14 minutes ago, audidave said: As an open event space, yes they are great. The problem is repurposing them in their location into some kind of apartment or housing. I’m fairly certain there is nothing that is salvageable from those 100+yr old warehouse buildings converting into housing. The standards then are nowhere near the standards now. I’m personally not sold that there are going to be many people that want to live by the stadium and on the lake and pay through the nose for almost 6 months of winter. Certainly not also live in a repurposed warehouse. I still believe you could retain them and have plenty of room for brand new residential and other amenities. What the region sorely needs imho is a place where you can go at night and just hang out - without it being a bar or restaurant. In coastal areas that place is almost always the waterfront, but not in Cleveland. Anyhow, with so many thousands of artists and musicians in Northeast Ohio the warehouses could've played to our strengths and serve as a real catalyst for the area. Please no more Flats 2.0 type of development, it's soulless.
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