Before anything happens there, it would be nice to know what Haslam's plans are - either a renovation of First Energy Stadium or building a new stadium at another location.

46 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Before anything happens there, it would be nice to know what Haslam's plans are - either a renovation of First Energy Stadium or building a new stadium at another location.

 

Cumberland's plans would have still made sense even if FES wasn't going to remain there long-term. True, a plan might be better if the whole area could be designed at once. But even if FES was demolished and redeveloped after a Cumberland-like development was built, the area would look from the air or on map like a stadium was there. Having a ghost of the stadium imprinted on the landscape in some way might not be a bad thing to have for decades to come, or longer.

4 hours ago, audidave said:

   I’m personally not sold that there are going to be many people that want to live by the stadium and on the lake and pay through the nose for almost 6 months of winter. Certainly not also live in a repurposed warehouse.  

 

I think THOUSANDS would want to live there if it is made into a real neighborhood--not just a bunch of apt bldgs with nothing nearby.  There has to be walkable bars, restaurants--both nice and cheap (chipotle, cheap chinese, etc), dry cleaner, drug store or two, a few 7-11's or something similar to buy drinks/beer/quick small grocery items, a few coffee shops, etc.

 

An edit to my post, given the post that follows it:  the "real neighborhood" i'm talking about should be just that---not one designed to be next to a stadium to accommodate stadium crowds---it should be a real neighborhood--not built for 8 days per year, but for 365 days a year that is COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT of the stadium being there.

Edited December 3, 20204 yr by Pugu

How successful has The Banks been down in Cincy? Are the restaurants busy on non-game days?

2 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

How successful has The Banks been down in Cincy? Are the restaurants busy on non-game days?

I hate to judge something that I have never seen in person, but from what I can tell from afar we should not consider the Banks as a model.  I remember when it was first proposed I thought how lucky Cincy was to have this huge parcel right on the river between two new stadiums just a few blocks from the central downtown business district.  Dare I say I was a bit jealous as a Clevelander.  Not any more.  The architecture seems mediocre and boring with a few exceptions (there is a cool brew house).  The retail is basically restaurants (a good number of chains) that are always churning. They have done a horrible job of connecting it to rest of downtown even though it is closer than our lakefront parcels to the central business district and this is the case even with the street car.   I understand that traffic is just so so when it is not a game day and speaking of traffic, lots of parking garages and a pretty major roadways seems to run through the middle of it.  It also seems as though it has taken forever to complete (I believe one of the original developers is no more) and there is still a far amount of vacant land.    I will say that it appears the park right on the river is first rate, but I believe even that is still not complete all these years on.  

 

Hopefully we can learn from their mistakes and demand great architecture, true mixed use and thoughtful connections to the rest of downtown.  However, given we have been planning for more than 40 years now without much in the way of concrete results,  I am guessing our final result will not be much better and the city will end of settling which is so often the case with development in our town.

CH 5 Story on warehouses.  https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/2021-nfl-draft/cleveland-city-council-moves-to-demolish-2-waterfront-warehouses-to-prepare-site-for-nfl-draft

Why not use Voinovich Park for The NFL Draft location?   This still provides FES as a great background for the event.  I want The City Council and The Haslams to show us their longterm concepts that forced Cumberland Development off the lakefront.

13 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

It’s especially frustrating when the MLB All Star game attractions on the Mall and in the Convention Center did so well - that’s the PERFECT spot for this event. I can’t figure out what they’re thinking. 

Even more so when the Malls are attached to a perfectly fine venue (Public Hall) that has hosted the Rock Hall Inductions, etc.   

The answer has to be with the site's future redevelopment- I don't think there's another logical explanation for it.  

3 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

The answer has to be with the site's future redevelopment- I don't think there's another logical explanation for it.  

You're probably right.  It will be a free property clearing for Haslem to then move in and put a development there.  

I concur, it’s a way to save on costs of demo, and jump start the development, has to be. Also for those worried about the weather, do we really expect next spring to be able to have a meaningful sized crowd attend the draft? Who knows if it even happens. Hope I’m wrong. It could be a cool site if they managed to incorporate the Mather into the stage somehow, and allowed muni lot tailgating in team sections (which also Isn’t Covid likely)... how cool would that be, each team gets to select best tailgaters to attend from a contest.

 

would be interesting if the stage they build in place of the warehouses could be maintained as a concert venue / stop gap until meaningful land bridge connection and  development happens down the road after figuring out fate of stadium. Could tie into rock hall. 

On 12/2/2020 at 9:52 PM, freethink said:

Dec 3 agenda

 

Ordinance No. 938-2020(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack): Authorizing the Director of Port Control to enter into an agreement with the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission to implement and manage the demolition and removal of Docks 30 and 32 warehouses and for demolition-related remediation to the site which is needed to stage the 2021 NFL Draft at North Coast Harbor; and to amend Section 2 of Ordinance No. 1028-28, passed January 11, 2019, relating to major events to add the Department of Port Control to the list of departments that may apply for and accept gifts and grants and enter into agreements relative to an event being held on their property.

 

CPC approved the demolitions unanimously.

20 hours ago, simplythis said:

CH 5 Story on warehouses.  https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/2021-nfl-draft/cleveland-city-council-moves-to-demolish-2-waterfront-warehouses-to-prepare-site-for-nfl-draft

From the WEWS article: "The warehouses are currently only used for storage..."

 

 

Isn't that the purpose of a warehouse?

Rock Hall picks firm to design expansion of its iconic lakefront building with ‘reverence and irreverence’

“The Rock Hall announced Thursday that it picked the five-year-old, New York-based architecture firm of PAU, led by Vishaan Chakrabarti, dean of the University of California Berkeley College of Environmental Design, as the project’s lead designer.”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/12/rock-hall-picks-firm-to-design-expansion-of-its-iconic-lakefront-building-with-reverence-and-irreverence.html

 

 

 

 

For non-subscribers, here is another article on expansion:

 

https://www.gadgetclock.com/rock-hall-of-fame-reveals-plan-for-expansion/

 

3 minutes ago, skiwest said:

For non-subscribers, here is another article on expansion:

 

https://www.gadgetclock.com/rock-hall-of-fame-reveals-plan-for-expansion/

 

Thanks for the article. It appears English is not the authors first language.

Thank you very much!!!

This article on Crain's doesn't appear to be paywalled.  Looks like a huge expansion.

 

Article:  https://www.crainscleveland.com/arts-entertainment/rock-hall-names-practice-architecture-and-urbanism-design-expansion

 

Pics: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1meV9IQGzxvV5umyACNTlCeZBy1rXPJha

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by West153

This looks absolutely horrendous. Placing this directly in front of the original facade and entry is about the worst possible thing I could imagine. This thing needs thrown in the trash and started over. 
 

This reminds me of some of the beautiful old mansions on Euclid and Prospect that had ugly storefronts or apartment structures added to the front. This seriously should never be allowed to happen. This is arguably the city’s most well known landmark around the globe. 

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by marty15

Nothing has been designed. Only the architect has been hired. That rendering appears to be conceptual. From the second paragraph of the article......

 

The institution on Friday, Dec. 18, announced that New York-based Practice for Architecture and Urbanism (PAU) will design an expansion that will increase by about one-third the Rock Hall's footprint on the shore of Lake Erie. (Go here for renderings of the expansion of the original building designed by I.M. Pei.)

5 minutes ago, KJP said:

Nothing has been designed. Only the architect has been hired. That rendering appears to be conceptual. From the second paragraph of the article......

 

The institution on Friday, Dec. 18, announced that New York-based Practice for Architecture and Urbanism (PAU) will design an expansion that will increase by about one-third the Rock Hall's footprint on the shore of Lake Erie. (Go here for renderings of the expansion of the original building designed by I.M. Pei.)

Why put it out there then? It’s frightening.

^ That part of the Crains article is written a little unclearly. The cle.bomb piece states directly that the rendering is an ‘early iteration of (PAU’s) proposal’. The article then goes on at great length about the triangular design, to an extent that makes me feel like it’s a done deal. Materials and the odd feature may change, but I fear we’re stuck with that vision.  
 

Edit: On the upside, the designer does say he doesn’t want to do something that would preclude the building of a future land-bridge. 

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by roman totale XVII

Both Crain's and cle bomb articles are paywalled, so I'm having trouble seeing any of the other renderings.  I do NOT want something blocking the iconic front view of the glass pyramid and record player form.  If the new design gets moved far enough off to the left of that view, which would also put it closer to the (proposed) land bridge, I'm good with it.

 

Here's one of the "losing" proposals.  It's from the Viennese architecture firm of Coop Himmelb(l)au, which designed the 2007 expansion of the Akron Art Museum. 

 

If you're going to go crazy, go all out crazy:

 

http://www.coop-himmelblau.at/architecture/projects/the-icon-of-sound/

 

www.coop-himmelblau.at/uploads/made/uploads/documents/200713__RHOF_View01_No_Bridge_web_1600_900_90.jpg

 

 

http://www.coop-himmelblau.at/uploads/made/uploads/images/HBL_RHOF_concept_fin2_1500_1061_85.jpg

 

 

 

I don’t understand why they’d be looking at a color scheme that so directly clashes with the existing building. If it were just white and glass, it would probably look fine even if it blocks part of the rock hall from some angles.

3 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I don’t understand why they’d be looking at a color scheme that so directly clashes with the existing building. If it were just white and glass, it would probably look fine even if it blocks part of the rock hall from some angles.

Personally I've wished they would reclad the rock hall panels to a black. I think it would make it look so much more sleek. The white does not work with how weather beaten the Hall is now. This would be a perfect chance to do that. 

Just put the new addition underground.

This NYT article has more info. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/arts/design/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-expansion.html
 

Basically they want it to look bad because rock n roll. 

 

EDIT: Found the architect's page on the project too. https://pau.studio/what/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-and-museum/ Reading their thought process on the design makes me warm up to it a bit more, though I'm still not sold.

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by LlamaLawyer

I wouldn't mind seeing an addition on the RH that builds a street wall along 9th.

46 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

This NYT article has more info. 
 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/arts/design/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-expansion.html
 

Basically they want it to look bad because rock n roll. 

 

EDIT: Found the architect's page on the project too. https://pau.studio/what/rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-and-museum/ Reading their thought process on the design makes me warm up to it a bit more, though I'm still not sold.

 

Thanks! That page has more renderings.  The TACOS food truck is a nice touch. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by Boomerang_Brian
Add another image

Here's an idea - cut a chunk out of that black pavilion to allow the needle of the original record player design to show through.  Then the whole thing together will be evocative of a record playing on a record player.  My photoshop skills are not good, but something like this:

 

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by Boomerang_Brian
wording tweak

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I don’t understand why they’d be looking at a color scheme that so directly clashes with the existing building. If it were just white and glass, it would probably look fine even if it blocks part of the rock hall from some angles.

 

My thoughts exactly. I love that they are keeping with the strong triangular theme, but the color choice and the materials are just wrong. Maybe they are trying to go for a complete contract in that regard, but I think keeping it white and glass would be better. The original design is more deserving of being complimented rather than covered up or distracted from. 

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Thanks! That page has more renderings.  The TACOS food truck is a nice touch. :)

 

The bottom photo showing the concert at night actually looks real nice in my opinion. And that's probably the biggest part of the PAU website's softening my heart. The cladding is going to be galvanized steel, which could look really nice and get attractively gritty with age. The firm does have an impeccable reputation.

 

Maybe we're just a bunch of old curmudgeons that don't understand rock & roll...😉

^ Agree about the cladding. On the assumption that is pretty much the final design, it's going to be all about materials and finish.

So they are building a mini blossom music center onto the Rock hall?

This was a proposal from one of the competing firms. Coop Himmelb(l)au.

 

 

1 hour ago, freethink said:

This was a proposal from one of the competing firms. Coop Himmelb(l)au.

 

 

Already posted up thread. 

I’m not a fan, at first “glance” of the triangle design. I get the premise  that rock n roll is irreverent and rebellious, obviously -but rock n roll has  always drawn upon its own fundamentals as it’s evolved through the decades - so their design rationale isn’t doing it for me. But without  getting into the weeds on a musical conversation  (I hold a music degree ) I’ll just say that I agree with those who don’t like seeing the original, iconic hall partially “blocked”.  I feel a little like the late great “Terdolph” saying that - but in this case, he would’ve been right! Seeing the much more dramatic Coop design proposal makes this even more of a disappointment- especially given a formidable $100 million price tag. Finally, I guess the new addition will allow for more of a performance space (although the night rendering appears to be on the front plaza -  but without question, the one major inclusion that the Hall literally screams for is a dynamic concert venue. Perhaps there are competitors in the area - won’t throw out a name - I’m sure y’all know the players  - that might not want the  competition - but with  such a venue - the RRHF  could truly be a more dynamic living museum. Given the habits of a Gen Z generation with a shorter than ever attention span - sometimes the current hall seems a bit “20th  Century”  I envision it more “alive”  - a world-class space for concerts and non-music events offering stunning vistas of the city skyline and coastline. As for the expansion’s color selection- as “Spinal Tap” once observed - “it’s a fine line between stupid and clever”  - If you catch my drift.  Of course, I’m very happy for the expansion - but, unless you’re viewing this apparently final design from the air  - it’s no great shakes (rattle and roll -sorry 😛) Once I get a look inside, maybe I’ll be more impressed. #Dontblocktherock. 

Edited December 19, 20204 yr by CleveFan
Word choice

I went to the GLSC last month to see the body worlds exhibition and IMO it's feeling tired and dated.    

 

What if the Rock Hall took over and remodeled the Science Center, and move them to the new Lerner development on the Lakefront?   This would give the Rock Hall way more property for future expansion.   

Interesting idea. I went to  GLSC once when it opened in 1996 and except for IMAX, it was underwhelming.  Not sure what they have done since then. I wonder how many visitors it gets vs rock hall? I suppose a lot of visitors to GLSC are via school field trips.

30 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Interesting idea. I went to  GLSC once when it opened in 1996 and except for IMAX, it was underwhelming.  Not sure what they have done since then. I wonder how many visitors it gets vs rock hall? I suppose a lot of visitors to GLSC are via school field trips.

 

The top floor is a good space for kids, complete with an indoor playground. As far as I know, it's the only playground downtown. Not good.

5 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The top floor is a good space for kids, complete with an indoor playground. As far as I know, it's the only playground downtown. Not good.

There's an outdoor playground at the Science Center next to the Mather that just got built. It's still pathetic that that is the only one.

25 minutes ago, stpats44113 said:

There's an outdoor playground at the Science Center next to the Mather that just got built. It's still pathetic that that is the only one.

 

I didn't realize that that had opened yet. It's not exactly in a visible, attractive, memorable location.

On 12/18/2020 at 10:44 AM, marty15 said:

Rock Hall picks firm to design expansion of its iconic lakefront building with ‘reverence and irreverence’

“The Rock Hall announced Thursday that it picked the five-year-old, New York-based architecture firm of PAU, led by Vishaan Chakrabarti, dean of the University of California Berkeley College of Environmental Design, as the project’s lead designer.”

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/12/rock-hall-picks-firm-to-design-expansion-of-its-iconic-lakefront-building-with-reverence-and-irreverence.html

 

 

 

 

 

Here's an idea - connect with Chakrabarti directly on LinkedIn, and make your feelings about the blockage known. I just did.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/vishaan-chakrabarti-faia-a004b9113/

7 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Here's an idea - connect with Chakrabarti directly on LinkedIn, and make your feelings about the blockage known. I just did.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/vishaan-chakrabarti-faia-a004b9113/

Great idea. I just did with a dash of irreverence and respect. Though perhaps it’s the RRHF board of directors that we should write to.  And, just a thought - would there have ever been a more appropriate situation to bring the public into the design selection than this? Imagine the buzz and talk and new energy about the hall that would’ve been garnered.  

Edited December 19, 20204 yr by CleveFan
Added point

It’s a shard through the heart of I.M. Pei. Total disrespect. It’s like a “look at me” design approach. 

Edited December 20, 20204 yr by marty15

On 12/19/2020 at 6:20 PM, CleveFan said:

Great idea. I just did with a dash of irreverence and respect. Though perhaps it’s the RRHF board of directors that we should write to.  And, just a thought - would there have ever been a more appropriate situation to bring the public into the design selection than this? Imagine the buzz and talk and new energy about the hall that would’ve been garnered.  

 

Lol, yeah I feel you. I let him know that "hundreds of people were up in arms about the design, which blocks the most valued part of the plaza - the glass pyramid." We apparently went to the same grad program - so knowing the thread of designers that can walk through those doors, lets just say that their heads are so far up their own asses that the notion of publicly-informed design could be, well, offensive to some. Hopefully he's not that type, and can appreciate that this may potentially be the work of someone down rank. Who knows? I'm sure we could scrounge up a few hundred folks to share their opinions if we tried :)

Edited December 21, 20204 yr by ASP1984

is there anywhere to see all the submitted design proposals?

So this would essentially block the earlier hotel proposal for that space, no?

7 minutes ago, sizzlinbeef said:

So this would essentially block the earlier hotel proposal for that space, no?

Wasn't that part of Pace's proposal?  He is long gone.

Can’t see why this triangle can’t work. They can still call it a pick if they want. 

Edited December 20, 20204 yr by marty15