I suspect it's also hard to compare the lakefront west of downtown, which mostly faces directly north or even has a slight tilt to the northeast and is dampered by high bluffs, with the shoreline to the east, which takes a sharp turn to face directly into the winds coming from the northwest and is much more at lake level.  It was always my understanding that this geographical difference is why the east side gets more snow.

 

 

 

 

It is extremely difficult to create a workable business model for a restaurant or most other businesses on our NORTHERN shoreline of Lake Erie.  To be honest, I do not think that most people could handle living on the Lake even if the housing was more affordable.  It is different from what people think.

 

 

I have an issue with the "too cold" theory. There are numerous examples of good coastal planning in Michigan, Wisconsin, Maine, Minnesota, Alaska, Nova Scotia, etc.

 

Cleveland is not colder than those places.

It was always my understanding that this geographical difference is why the east side gets more snow.

 

 

 

That's part of it. The other part is that the land is higher the farther inland you get, where more snow falls. It's called orographic lifting, meaning that as air rises, it is cooled and condenses the moisture into precipitation. The area east of Cleveland is the start of the Allegheny plateau.

 

Back to construction discussion.......

Interesting news!

 

leandog software to buy, renovate former hornblower's barge

Thursday, August 04, 2011

 

When John Stahl launched LeanDog, his now four-year-old software development company that has grown to 34 employees, he was looking for a space that would stretch his clients' minds and embody the expansive thinking LeanDog tries to instill.

 

He found what he was looking for in a former Lake Erie barge, which dates back to 1892 and was last used as the floating restaurant Hornblower's. "We help companies envision who they want to be," says Stahl. "With a view of the trains, the Rock Hall, Lake Erie and downtown Cleveland, we figured this was the place to do that."

 

Now Stahl has partnered with the owner of Arras, a 20-year-old marketing and brand innovation company that currently has offices in the Terminal Tower, to purchase and renovate the barge, now permanently moored at 1151 N. Marginal Road. The project will add a full second story to accommodate the companies' growth.

 

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/devnews/leandogrenovateshornblowers080411.aspx

 

They're adding a full second story to a boat?

It was always my understanding that this geographical difference is why the east side gets more snow.

 

 

 

That's part of it. The other part is that the land is higher the farther inland you get, where more snow falls. It's called orographic lifting, meaning that as air rises, it is cooled and condenses the moisture into precipitation. The area east of Cleveland is the start of the Allegheny plateau.

 

Back to construction discussion.......

 

Very true. In fact lift is probably the biggest factor in terms of snowfall. The Brunswick area has a mini-snow belt of its own due to elevation.

They're adding a full second story to a boat?

Third story actually. *edit* (actually it appears they will just add a second story, but they plan to eventually add a third.)

 

Does anyone know where exactly it's going to be docked?

For reference, the railroad line along the lakefront was built in the 1850s on a manmade shelf below the lakefront's bluff. This view is from the 1890s below what is today East 9th Street (the building above is the old Lakeside Hospital, which then became the site of the Cleveland Press and now the Northpoint office complex)....

 

 

Where do you these great old photos?  I would love to find some of Battery Park from when it was the working battery factory.

^ There is a guy every Tuesdays and Thursdays in the Galleria Market Days...who sells fantastic old restored Cleveland Press photos of the city. You name the scene and he has it...large prints too! They are amazing!

 

Oh, and as for Hornblowers...good to see something in there, but this was a great space with a great view...now off limits to the public. I wish it could have been re-invented as a new restaurant.

^ There is a guy every Tuesdays and Thursdays in the Galleria Market Days...who sells fantastic old restored Cleveland Press photos of the city. You name the scene and he has it...large prints too! They are amazing!

 

 

You can buy them for less at ClevelandMemory.com, which is probably where he gets them.

Hey, has anyone heard any updates with the Browns' lakefront plan? It looked pretty good and football oriented development has worked in other cities before. I'm curious to see if any of it has moved forward at all.

Hey, has anyone heard any updates with the Browns' lakefront plan? It looked pretty good and football oriented development has worked in other cities before. I'm curious to see if any of it has moved forward at all.

 

Yeah I'm a little worried about the silent treatment this is getting. I think it's a brilliant plan.

well, the silence comes from the fact that this isn't a real plan.  the browns said this was a plan and was a "unique opportunity"to develop the lakefront, but the reality is they paid a guy to draw fictitious buildings on the lakefront and pretended that there was some sort of momentum to achieve something like this.  There is no financial backing, no tenants, and no partners to move forward.

my interpretation is the browns looked around and said 'wouldn't it be cool if there were buildings surrounding the stadium?' and that was the end of that.

well, the silence comes from the fact that this isn't a real plan.  the browns said this was a plan and was a "unique opportunity"to develop the lakefront, but the reality is they paid a guy to draw fictitious buildings on the lakefront and pretended that there was some sort of momentum to achieve something like this.  There is no financial backing, no tenants, and no partners to move forward.

my interpretation is the browns looked around and said 'wouldn't it be cool if there were buildings surrounding the stadium?' and that was the end of that.

 

But what about the "major announcement" the Dan Gilbert promised lol?

 

Maybe this was just a slick ploy to distract us as he started personally breaking the windows of the Columbia.

 

p.s. tonight I have a major announcement....I'm drawing up my own lakefront plan on a napkin. It's awesome.

i've made plans for the parkinglot on east 4th a few times, myself

I emailed whatever contact info was on that Browns Town website as soon as it went live... Never heard back.

well, the silence comes from the fact that this isn't a real plan.  the browns said this was a plan and was a "unique opportunity"to develop the lakefront, but the reality is they paid a guy to draw fictitious buildings on the lakefront and pretended that there was some sort of momentum to achieve something like this.  There is no financial backing, no tenants, and no partners to move forward.

my interpretation is the browns looked around and said 'wouldn't it be cool if there were buildings surrounding the stadium?' and that was the end of that.

 

The renderings seem like an odd thing for the Browns to spend money on if they didn't expect it to go anywhere or have any impact on development.

I don't believe the Browns ever gave any indication of a willingness to invest.  I thought they were simply assuming a leadership role and sought to attract outside investors.

I agree with hts121...  the browns never said they would development anything, they said they were in the football business and this was a

concept of what they would like to see, and using their brand to attract developers.... 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/11/cleveland_to_unveil_new_plan_f.html

Cleveland to unveil new plan for lakefront development

Published: Sunday, November 13, 2011, 6:00 AM

  By Thomas Ott, The Plain Dealer

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mayor Frank Jackson will unveil a plan Monday for developing the downtown waterfront, a vision he says will finally capitalize on the city's No. 1 asset and make it a focal point for the region.

The ambitious plan covers 90 acres, stretching east from the Port of Cleveland's cargo docks past Cleveland Browns Stadium and the East 9th Street pier to Burke Lakefront Airport.

It calls for a hotel, restaurants, shops and offices -- perhaps more than 2 million square feet in all -- to be built largely with private money over many years. Water taxis, arcades, a promenade, bicycle paths and two pedestrian bridges would link the waterfront amenities or connect them to the rest of downtown.

Planners have worked with the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority and the Browns, both of which recently announced development concepts of their own.

Port chief executive William Friedman is endorsing the city's effort, and Browns general counsel Fred Nance said it is "completely compatible" with an initiative the team rolled out in March. The port will retain 75 acres for maritime operations and development while the Browns continue to lease 17 acres from the city.

Jackson said Flats East Bank, an office, retail and hotel development rising near the mouth of the Cuyahoga River, is proof that that Cleveland can build up its lakefront and leaves only the question of what's next. The answer, he said, is a mixed-use mecca that redefines a metropolitan area historically viewed as two different worlds.

"Everything will emanate from that," the mayor told Plain Dealer editors and reporters in a meeting last week. "No more East Side, no more West Side. . . . It will be Cleveland."

 

I like this. This plan, unlike the previous plans I believe, has a clear direction. I especially like the Burke development area with the capability of floating business barges and campus-like office developments. Excellent way to keep businesses in the city!

I LOVE this plan. Its a smart plan with a good direction.

why were the burke office buildings so detailed, but the west side were just boxes?

I just know the Port of Cleveland is going to clash with the lakefront development for sure. The Flats East Bank should extend north towards the lake in order for it connect more with the lakefront/lakefront plan. We all know THATS prob. not going to happen. The Burke airport is always going to be a waste of space. Its really too bad.

Sounds like a winner.  I especially like the focus on making it functional for pedestrians.

I just know the Port of Cleveland is going to clash with the lakefront development for sure. The Flats East Bank should extend north towards the lake in order for it connect more with the lakefront/lakefront plan. We all know THATS prob. not going to happen. The Burke airport is always going to be a waste of space. Its really too bad.

You guys fail to realize how vital Burke is.  Until Hopkins get another runway I don't want to see burke closed.  those private planes moving to Hopkins will create major delays even if we're not operating at full capacity now.  They clog up jetways due to "wake" and planes have to wait longer to take off / land.  If that happens we become a midway, LGA, ATL with delays.

 

Maybe we haven't seen the low level details, but the East Bank and Wester portion of this project must meet and RTA lines must be moved in concert.  I'm not a fan of the walkway, but it's not the worse.  I hope a hotel is included in the plans, once that happens it will be a destination.

 

I love how they moved shake shack from Madison Square park to Bryant Park.  Who knew?

 

 

I personally like the walkway(s), but I agree about Burke.

MTS has a very valid point about Burke. It simply cannot be closed until Hopkins gets another runway. it's actually an asset to have Burke so close to downtown.

MTS has a very valid point about Burke. It simply cannot be closed until Hopkins gets another runway. it's actually an asset to have Burke so close to downtown.

 

The FAA is very hesitant to close a runway let alone an airport.  As you all know, addin a runway or building an airport is almost impossible.  I don't think that BKL will close within the next 25 years UNLESS significant capacity is added somewhere else and I don't think that capacity will be CLE.  Look at the length of time (legal, etc) it took to get the new 24R/6L runway built.  Also, with CLE, its not just runway capacity.  Its also one of parking.  Where do you put the planes?  CLE is a small airport area wise.  Kind of like EWR.  Thats why Teterboro is there to stay as well.  I know many people will use the example to Meigs Field in Chicago.  However, with Chicago, you already have a secondary airport - MDW which can absorb additional capacity.

MTS has a very valid point about Burke. It simply cannot be closed until Hopkins gets another runway. it's actually an asset to have Burke so close to downtown.

 

The FAA is very hesitant to close a runway let alone an airport.  As you all know, adding a runway or building an airport is almost impossible.  I don't think that BKL will close within the next 25 years UNLESS significant capacity is added somewhere else and I don't think that capacity will be CLE.  Look at the length of time (legal, etc) it took to get the new 24R/6L runway built.  Also, with CLE, its not just runway capacity.  Its also one of parking.  Where do you put the planes?  CLE is a small airport area wise.  Kind of like EWR.  Thats why Teterboro is there to stay as well.  I know many people will use the example to Meigs Field in Chicago.  However, with Chicago, you already have a secondary airport - MDW which can absorb additional capacity.

And that is why I specifically used MDW as an example. 

 

If the IX is torn down the entire airport can be redeveloped.  However, that is going off topic and we've discussed the BKL closing and Hopkins expansion in many, many times in other aviation/transportation or Cleveland development threads.

Overall, I like the plan. Particularly as it gives solid parameters: BKL stays (which I fully agree with) and the Port remains.

 

I agree with the above that a connection to flats east--continuous retail development or something--is needed. Also, I'd like to see residential development in the plan as a 'must' rather than a maybe'.

Hell, if the mall to the harbor bridge is built, Ill be happy

Nice job with the plan. Not too aggressive which makes it more doable. Glad to see the Amtrak station incorporated. Hopefully the walkway will be designed in such a way so that accessways (elevator and stairwell) from it to more trackside station platforms are possible without weakening the structure. This could be done separately with a station expansion, but having this walkway already in place would save a ton of money from having to duplicate it with a separate, station-only overhead walkway so that more than one train can serve the station at a time.

 

EDIT: This would be happening now since two trains arrive within minutes of each other at about 2:30 a.m. And all four trains overnight will soon be rescheduled to serve Cleveland between 1 a.m. and 4 a.m. The reason why this "would" be happening now is because trains have to wait outside the station for their turn to use the one station track. And proposed expansion could cause this happen during daylight hours too.

Why not incorporate the North Coast Transit Center into this? Or is that dead?

 

Good plan, just wondering.

Why not incorporate the North Coast Transit Center into this? Or is that dead?

 

Good plan, just wondering.

 

The city sought federal funding to do preliminary engineering for it but the funds were not awarded. I have not been able to find out if the city will re-apply.

I have some problems with this plan...

 

1. Why is the development on Burke airport land NOT being expanded north so that it actually touches Lake Erie???

2. By the looks of the drawings, it looks like the areas that are going to be developed look over populated with too many building with no sense of connection.

3. It doesnt seem like the plan includes much more lakefront space, besides the space north of the Browns Stadium. Its all glitz and glam to cover up the fact that we really aren't gaining much more lakefront land.

 

Opinion

1.Tear down the Browns Stadium to make room for more lakefront development.

2. Build more office buildings on the Port like Flats East Bank height or higher along with mixed use development and port activity.

Nice plan, but it will probably take years to get the simplest thing off the ground if other project status' are any indicator....  projects like Scofield Bldg. that has not lifted a finger for over a year... Euclid and 9th...dead... I wonder what will be the delay factors for building behind the stadium.

^One of the fastest things they can probably do is build the connector between the RRHOF and Science Center and the restaurants on the pier.  There is probably demand for at least one restaurant already and the city owns the land so I would think that a developer would eat that land up pretty quick.

 

Overall I really like the plan. 

I hope this plan can begin to happen in the near future. The connector bridge to The Malls and harbor is exciting

Opinion

1.Tear down the Browns Stadium to make room for more lakefront development.

2. Build more office buildings on the Port like Flats East Bank height or higher along with mixed use development and port activity.

 

regarding building heights, keep in mind they can't be too high given the runways at BKL. Without doing any calculations, though, ten stories would probably be okay.

What time is the press conference today?

I totally agree with KJP and Clevelover and others that this plan is strong because it is way more doable (in increments) than past plans and is excellently clear and decisive. No more relying on long term/unrealistic port relocation or huge, expensive projects to tie the mall to the lakefront.  One big picture concern is how separate all this development is going to seem from the rest of downtown, especially in the winter, but that's nothing new.  Also, this plan completely wastes the waterfront line's reserved station location north of FEB. 

 

I know it would effectively sever the lakefront into two sections, and I have no idea if its operationally possible, but I would consider letting the Port keep all the land north of CBS if it meant we could see FEB extended north along the river mouth, so at least part of the new development were better integrated into an adjacent area.

I would add that the North Coast (East 9th) Waterfront Line station should be reoriented with this plan so that its principal ingress/egress point is moved to the west side of the station so that it could link up with the Human Habitrail, convention center, science center, rock hall, and the Amtrak station. The North Coast station platforms would not move, so it would not be any closer the West 3rd/Browns stadium station which, conisdering the crowds it handles, should remain in service for stadium events. This reorientation should occur even if the Waterfront Line doesn't return to daily operation, but I expect that will happen after Flats East Bank opens. Let's make the most of the ped tube!

I really like this plan.  I think that the timing of this plan couldn't be better because of all the construction which is currently going on downtown right now.  If we see some movement along the lakefront within the next 5 years, as the article suggests, this decade could the game changer for downtown.

 

^^KJP, it looks like the plan calls for some kind of "vertical circulation" tower that would link the gerbil tube to the ground below, not too far from the existing platforms.  Ideally passengers would be able to access the station from both ends, I'd think.

 

It's not shown in the plan, but medium term, I wonder if there couldn't be development along East 9th on a cap over the RR tracks to help shrink the perceived gap between the CBD to the lakefront.  The RTA headhouse could be rebuilt to be integrated into it.  Maybe new development even on the eastern half of Willard Park which is kind of useless, IMHO.  Would encroach on the Group Plan a bit, but wouldn't bother me.  It's not like we need the green space there.

Also, I'd like to see residential development in the plan as a 'must' rather than a maybe'.

 

They've hired a company to look at demand for housing.  If they look at the residential vacancy rates downtown and the limited housing options there are, I would imagine their recommendation would include housing.

Plan unveiled for developing Cleveland's lakefront

Mayor Frank Jackson meets with stakeholders and reporters.

 

Jackson admits they need money for this project but they're confident it will happen. The city is applying for grants, investing in the short term and is working with partners to get long term investments.

 

The plan puts the lakefront into three development areas including Harbor West, North Coast Harbor and the Burke Development District area. It calls for 3.5 million square feet in new development including office space, a hotel, green space, restaurants, retail space, recreational boating, and a transient marina. It also creates a public space that can be used for special events.

 

Four pieces of legislation will be introduced to Cleveland City Council tonight so it can move forward and the plan will be presented to the City Planning Commission on Friday. Public hearings will take place over the next three months.

 

Read more: http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=122520&article=9393658#ixzz1diTjSYI7

 

 

 

 

Earlier news reports indicated that a major component of the plan was a 50 million dollar all weather walk way.  The reports indicated that the city had already applied for a federal grant for the walk way.  Does anybody know what the amount of the application was and when city applied for it (also which agency, how long for a decision and what are the qualifications and what other projects are competing for what may be limited funds....I know.... I am so demanding and inquisitive)?  In other words, what is the likelyhood of such a grant given the fiscal climate in Washington and the current budget cutting discussions.  If the grant is not forth coming does this kill the whole development since it seems to be such a key aspect?  And where is Cleveland coming up with any funds in addition to this possibly limited or nonexistent grant.  Don't want to sound like a Debbie Downer but that is a lot of money and it seems to be a key aspect of the plan.

Just for fun... does anybody else see that the #1 trending topic on Yahoo.com right now is Cleveland Waterfront?

I think the Yahoo lists are customized depending on your location so it will show you what Clevelanders are searching for not what the entire nation is looking for