December 14, 20168 yr I wanted more height. I agree. The 4 stories might have been a bit much to ask, but at least give us 3 stories!!! With it only being 2, it looks unfinished IMHO.
December 14, 20168 yr It was five, including the penthouse level. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 14, 20168 yr What a boring downgrade. I'm disappointed in the height reduction as well. Hopefully this doesn't represent what the rest of the lakefront will eventually look like.
December 14, 20168 yr I'm waiting for the day a rendering comes out and the UO crowd doesn't complain about it. I may be long gone
December 14, 20168 yr I wanted a taller building, too. I'm less concerned about it overwhelming the Rock Hall. It's technically behind the RH as seen from the city, plus the Rock Hall is so tall and dramatic with its tall triangular shape, I seriously doubt any low slung apt building will overwhelm it especially given the gap between the two structures. Bottom line, I'm not thrilled by the 2-story, fewer-units residence.
December 14, 20168 yr I'm waiting for the day a rendering comes out and the UO crowd doesn't complain about it. I may be long gone Usually people don't say anything when they like something. It's why you'll never hear of a citizen attending a city council meeting to tell them they're doing a good job. Dissatisfaction makes people talkative. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 14, 20168 yr I'm waiting for the day a rendering comes out and the UO crowd doesn't complain about it. I may be long gone I actually do compliment many designs. I tend to be less critical of building designs because I know Cleveland generally is in catch-up mode and I believe more in function over form ... When Cleveland is creating density (esp TOD) and walkable neighborhoods, I tend not to squawk about design unless it's absolutely hideous. In this case, though, I'm disappointed in the much smaller/shorter scale of this final design as opposed to what was proposed. I feel more strongly since this is such valuable lakefront land planners have been lamenting for decades in terms of its lack of development.
December 14, 20168 yr Very uninspiring. Really setting the bar low when it comes to future waterfront development. This design looks like they are desperate to get something up and rented and not to transform some of downtown's most valuable real estate. Someone needs to step in and shoot this down.
December 14, 20168 yr I'm honestly surprised it's so small. I would have presumed they'd want more units (I think there's only 16 + first floor retail?) to take advantage of what would be a desirable location. On the flip side, with only 16 units, I'm not sure I'd want to live there. You're stuck out on the pier having the brave the winds off the lake without any nearby amenities, and really not a lot of other residents around you. I'd feel like I'm a zoo exhibit for all the walkers/ browns fans / RRHOF attendees, etc. that go onto the pier looking in on me.
December 14, 20168 yr I'm curious what the FAA height limit is. If this isn't close, if it's small for small's sake, then try again. We can't afford to underdevelop anything.
December 14, 20168 yr The site is basically on centerline with runway 6R/24L, so I can see it being an issue with the FAA.
December 14, 20168 yr I assumed that height would be an issue since the original North Coast Harbor Pedestrian Bridge design was nixed due to height limitations. The Nuevo restaurant design is a nice addition to the area so I hold out hope. I always assumed that piece of property should be left open if the RRHF was ever to expand. This residential component feels isolated since all other residential will fall behind FirstEnergy Stadium.
December 14, 20168 yr I say let 'em crash.... https://youtu.be/_516ml5ImGU "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 16, 20168 yr It's a pretty $25+ million bridge. But it could be so much more practical, useful and productive when separated into two fully enclosed bridges with a multi-modal transportation center in the middle. Two basic enclosed pedestrian bridges, one over the railroad tracks and the other over the Shoreway might be had for $10 million to $15 million total. A similar two-bridge arrangement, albeit without full enclosure, is proposed at East 18th and is projected to cost $9.8 million in total. The savings could be applied to incorporate it into/with the transportation center... Is Cleveland's lakefront pedestrian bridge feasible? A study is underway By Karen Farkas, cleveland.com on December 15, 2016 at 2:35 PM, updated December 15, 2016 at 5:05 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio - The feasibility of a pedestrian bridge to the lakefront is under study as the Cleveland signature project remains unbuilt with no timeline. The bridge, which would extend 900 feet from the downtown Mall over railroad tracks and the Shoreway to North Coast Harbor, was supposed to be finished in 2017. Two years ago, the design was unveiled, and last year the county issued a request for qualifications for a design-build team for the bridge, but no action has been taken. MORE: http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2016/12/clevelands_lakefront_pedestrian_bridge_still_in_the_works_but_when.html#incart_river_home "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 16, 20168 yr Looks like it was more of a cost issue instead of an FAA height issue. A second iteration was taller, with foundations driven deep into the ground. But the construction costs were too high. The newest designs show a simpler, less costly project, one that will require digging down only 5 feet. The change in foundation type will save roughly $500,000, said Pace, who also has shifted to lighter construction materials, drawing lessons from the Nuevo project. http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/12/cleveland_lakefront_developer.html#incart_river_home_pop https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
December 16, 20168 yr But the construction costs were too high. The newest designs show a simpler, less costly project, one that will require digging down only 5 feet. The change in foundation type will save roughly $500,000, said Pace, who also has shifted to lighter construction materials, drawing lessons from the Nuevo project.[/i] Is that issue going to affect development north of the stadium also? I don't know how successful low-rise residential will be on the lakefront. It seems questionable that low-rise would support necessary infrastructure costs. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
December 16, 20168 yr It's a pretty $25+ million bridge. But it could be so much more practical, useful and productive when separated into two fully enclosed bridges with a multi-modal transportation center in the middle. MORE: http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2016/12/clevelands_lakefront_pedestrian_bridge_still_in_the_works_but_when.html#incart_river_home Is Appelbaum even aware of the Transportation Center? Heck, it would be so refreshing to read an article that inspires confidence in these public officials.
December 16, 20168 yr Dick Pace says there will be phase 3 retail in about 6 months.http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/developer-shows-plans-for-north-coast-apartments-planned-for-next-to-rock-hall
December 16, 20168 yr I have no idea how retail is going to be viable down there given the low foot traffic 250+ days a year, but I guess that's for Pace and Trammell Crow to worry about.
December 17, 20168 yr The 2 story version is a major buzzkill. Hard to believe they "didn't have the money" for a nice development on this prime real estate. What a disappointment.
December 17, 20168 yr The 2 story version is a major buzzkill. Hard to believe they "didn't have the money" for a nice development on this prime real estate. What a disappointment. Before everyone complains too much, read the above linked to article from newsnet5.com. It also mentions that the site is only 5 feet above the waterline so a deep foundation was problematic.
December 17, 20168 yr I have no idea how retail is going to be viable down there given the low foot traffic 250+ days a year, but I guess that's for Pace and Trammell Crow to worry about. In this case I agree. Once there's a whole neighborhood around the stadium, sure, it'll need retail. But this one building alone? No way.
December 17, 20168 yr Keep in mind though that the retail won't just be pulling from residents. There's tourists there too
December 17, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July....
December 18, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... Hopefully quietly going away....
December 18, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... This is a screenshot from the developers 2016 annual report, it talks about the project, I have also included text of what is going on with some of their other projects as the challenges could be similar here.
December 18, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... Hopefully quietly going away.... It's interesting that they list proximity to hotels and Cleveland clinic, but not the lake. I fear that the mindset of this company just isn't in tune with waterfront development.
December 18, 20168 yr "There is no question this will be more costly to develope than our typical site" - WTF, please tell me why. Lies
December 18, 20168 yr Well I don't think they are going to lie to themselves in their own annual report lol. Site control, construction costs, labor etc. is always more expensive in an urban setting. Most of their properties are near a highway exit ramp or land that they already control. As far as the lakefront site it is up to the city to demand something that does not ignore it's unique setting. I think there is a place for this in the city. Personally I don't like the site for this I could see it in other spaces downtown, but I like the conversation and the interest shown in Cleveland. I think it is encouraging they indicate strong interest from retailers.
December 18, 20168 yr Well I don't think they are going to lie to themselves in their own annual report lol. Companies do that all the time. No reason to doubt them in this instance though. We all know urban redevelopment costs more than building on a green field.
December 18, 20168 yr Especially since Burke is a pre-EPA landfill so no knows what's in there. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 18, 20168 yr A 'Greenway Corridor' between Cleveland's uptown and downtown is in reach: Anthony J. Russo (Opinion) https://t.co/yB7dIEKqJH "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 18, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... This is a screenshot from the developers 2016 annual report, it talks about the project, I have also included text of what is going on with some of their other projects as the challenges could be similar here. Glad to hear that they have progress on it and that retailers are showing interest. Depending on how it's built and what the mixture of stores are, this could be a gigantic draw for the city
December 18, 20168 yr A 'Greenway Corridor' between Cleveland's uptown and downtown is in reach: Anthony J. Russo (Opinion) https://t.co/yB7dIEKqJH He says he wants more people living on the lakefront, but his plan ensures that nobody can. We already have multiple lakefront parks. We don't suffer from a lack of them. What our waterfront does lack is good urban development.
December 19, 20168 yr Michelle Jarboe PD Story on why the Cumberland Project was scaled down. http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/12/cleveland_lakefront_developer.html#incart_river_home
December 19, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... This is a screenshot from the developers 2016 annual report, it talks about the project, I have also included text of what is going on with some of their other projects as the challenges could be similar here. Glad to hear that they have progress on it and that retailers are showing interest. Depending on how it's built and what the mixture of stores are, this could be a gigantic draw for the city How could this ever be a gigantic draw? This developer builds lower end brand outlet malls next to interstates. There are already two of these in the area at Aurora and Lodi. It won't be a regional draw. Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit and Buffalo all have outlet malls of their own. There's nothing unique going into this Outlet Center and it could be built almost anywhere else in the city.
December 19, 20168 yr "At 1,700 to 2,000 square feet, the two- and three-bedroom apartments might rent for $3,800 to $4,500 a month. Each apartment will have at least two bathrooms and a large patio. The parking garage will accommodate 26 cars. The units can't be sold as condominiums because of the nature of Cumberland's underlying land lease with the city." (http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/12/cleveland_lakefront_developer.html) Re the clause about condos above---will this be true with all the lakefront development that Cumberland is doing? I'd readily buy a condo there (if there are other amenities like restaurants and shops), but I would not pay $4k a month to rent.
December 19, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... This is a screenshot from the developers 2016 annual report, it talks about the project, I have also included text of what is going on with some of their other projects as the challenges could be similar here. Glad to hear that they have progress on it and that retailers are showing interest. Depending on how it's built and what the mixture of stores are, this could be a gigantic draw for the city How could this ever be a gigantic draw? This developer builds lower end brand outlet malls next to interstates. There are already two of these in the area at Aurora and Lodi. It won't be a regional draw. Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit and Buffalo all have outlet malls of their own. There's nothing unique going into this Outlet Center and it could be built almost anywhere else in the city. We'll see after it's built. (And by the way, I clearly said "depending on how it's built and what the mixture of stores are")
December 19, 20168 yr Has anyone from the city suggested alternate locations for this outlet center? Just a few blocks south even. It gains nothing from being on the lake and would waste a lot of land that deserves more intensive development. But at the same time, the city needs retail desperately and I don't want to chase this thing away.
December 19, 20168 yr Michelle Jarboe PD Story on why the Cumberland Project was scaled down. http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2016/12/cleveland_lakefront_developer.html#incart_river_home Shallow retail spaces would conceal a residential garage at street level. What a beautiful sentence. Anyhow, while the scale down is unfortunate, it's at least looking like the place will at least interact well at ground level.
December 19, 20168 yr Any update on the outlet mall proposal? Seem to be all very quiet since the initial news way back in July.... This is a screenshot from the developers 2016 annual report, it talks about the project, I have also included text of what is going on with some of their other projects as the challenges could be similar here. Glad to hear that they have progress on it and that retailers are showing interest. Depending on how it's built and what the mixture of stores are, this could be a gigantic draw for the city How could this ever be a gigantic draw? This developer builds lower end brand outlet malls next to interstates. There are already two of these in the area at Aurora and Lodi. It won't be a regional draw. Pittsburgh, Columbus, Detroit and Buffalo all have outlet malls of their own. There's nothing unique going into this Outlet Center and it could be built almost anywhere else in the city. We'll see after it's built. (And by the way, I clearly said "depending on how it's built and what the mixture of stores are") The developer is very, very clear on the type of facilities it builds. I don't expect this one to be any different: A regular to low-end outlet mall. The only difference from their other projects is the parking will be stacked in Cleveland. Not sure if this has anything to do with them being "urban" on their part, I think it's more due to the limited size of the lot and the amount of cars they expect. Has anyone from the city suggested alternate locations for this outlet center? Just a few blocks south even. It gains nothing from being on the lake and would waste a lot of land that deserves more intensive development. But at the same time, the city needs retail desperately and I don't want to chase this thing away. I agree the city needs the tax revenue. That being said it will likely be half-filled (or less) in 10 years when the next big retail thing comes along in the region. Then what? Another but larger Galleria on the Lake?
December 19, 20168 yr Tax revenue is a big reason but so is access to retail for urban residents. Aurora and Lodi cannot serve that need, so in that sense it's not a regional issue. The Galleria never had much chance as a traditional mall without an anchor store. Failure by design there. Outlets don't seem as dependent on anchor stores to drive traffic. That being said, it would be great if they included one anyway. And still not clear why this needs to be on the lake. Unique scenery is important for office or residential but meaningless in retail.
January 5, 20178 yr Decision on Rosales pedestrian bridge needs grounding in stronger lakefront vision: https://t.co/wVDQH2F0RC @CLEcityplanning @lilliankuri https://t.co/Hw3aObhaZX "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 5, 20178 yr ^ As pretty as the Rosales bridge is and as iconic as it might become for Cleveland, I agree with taking another look. I'd like to see a comprehensive air-rights development over the tracks and Shoerway, although I'm not sure that's affordable at present either. Maybe we just have to wait for higher property values. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
January 6, 20178 yr Agree with Dougal. There are still a lot of possibilities here, and I like the Rosales bridge, but two problems w that: 1, we know we're getting a value-engineered version of the Rosales bridge if that; and 2, why build something that could take other options off the table in the near future. Downtown Cleveland as we know it today is really only 8-10 years old. I think with the truly unprecedented rate of change now that a Cleveland resurgence is sticking, Cleveland probably could pull off something as visionary as air-rights TOD in another decade. Some inevitable factors that must be considered: 1, something has to happen with that Amtrak station; 2, something has to happen with the waterfront line; 3, something will happen with all of the vacant land north of the shoreway; and 4, some drastic changes are going to have to happen with RTA. I don't think we should make this decision right this second. In a dream scenario, it would be awesome to see this site include the Caceres and Canonono proposal, incorporating air rights TOD. Leverage the TOD/TIF matched with some state capital dollars and the next sin tax renewal, and done.
January 6, 20178 yr ^ As pretty as the Rosales bridge is and as iconic as it might become for Cleveland, I agree with taking another look. I'd like to see a comprehensive air-rights development over the tracks and Shoerway, although I'm not sure that's affordable at present either. Maybe we just have to wait for higher property values. A walkway and multi-modal hub should be designed so it can be incorporated with a future development at this site. What the city has designed for the multi-modal hub can do that, but the walkway cannot. If the original idea for the walkway was reconsidered, but broken up in two walkways, it could served the planned hub and future development. One walkway could be over the tracks and another over the Shoreway with the transportation hub in between. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 20178 yr ^ As pretty as the Rosales bridge is and as iconic as it might become for Cleveland, I agree with taking another look. I'd like to see a comprehensive air-rights development over the tracks and Shoerway, although I'm not sure that's affordable at present either. Maybe we just have to wait for higher property values. A walkway and multi-modal hub should be designed so it can be incorporated with a future development at this site. What the city has designed for the multi-modal hub can do that, but the walkway cannot. If the original idea for the walkway was reconsidered, but broken up in two walkways, it could served the planned hub and future development. One walkway could be over the tracks and another over the Shoreway with the transportation hub in between. Ultimately the tracks will be the easier space to cap or do air rights development over, so a more permanent or landmark, shorter, lakefront bridge could be designed over the shoreway.
January 6, 20178 yr Disagree. Getting the railroads' permission to build over them is extremely difficult. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 20178 yr Disagree. Getting the railroads' permission to build over them is extremely difficult. I'm sure the amazing and wonderful Mayor Frank Jackson could sway them with the help of his friends at the FTA. :roll:
January 6, 20178 yr Disagree. Getting the railroads' permission to build over them is extremely difficult. Yeah, the amount of legacy power that railroads are entitled to is mind boggling imo.
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