Here's the background:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/12/uss_cod_gains_traction_as_clev.html

 

Historic or landmark status doesn't prevent the city from moving the Cod. It does create additional layers of approvals/hearings necessary before a move can occur, however.

 

I'm sure the city would find and fund for the Cod and Mather new locations before moving them.

from the PD article: "A local landmark designation would apply to both the submarine and the half-acre piece of public property where it has been moored for more than 50 years"

 

this is crazy. Is should apply to the sub only. There's nothing historical to the land around it. All it does is make lakefront development more difficult. The sub is a water vessel -- it can be moved. Lakefront land cannot.

 

So a couple of years ago I floated the idea ( see what I did there) about moving the USS COD over to the old Coast Guard Station (page 40 of this thread). With the possible move of the COD in the future just wanted to bring that up again. The Coast Guard station is undergoing renovations now with more to come. I am saying it could be a component of something bigger there as an added attraction to whatever use the station finds. Below is a mock-up that another forumer put together at the time.

If you are not familiar with the Green Ribbon Coalition they are an advocacy group that promotes all thing lakefront. They have put together a proposal for a 'landbridge' connecting the mall to the lakefront.  https://www.greenribbonlakefront.org

 

Below is a link to the PDF

 

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/918855_5ef6d76864c34d748e650a59075aee9a.pdf

While I commend the concept of the land bridge , I find the plan confusing.  I don't see any of this happening.  How many years has it been in development for the iNorth Coast Harbor Bridge that has been proposed and changed since 2008!.  I also do not understand where the Mall needs to connect directly The GLSC and RRHF. No panning was ever considered to add parking to renovated Convention Center/Burnham Mall areas.  The Waterfront Line should have been better designed to have carried passengers directly from Tower City to the museums front steps.  Any plans  that were to activate the Malls for better use was sidestepped and all ideas were transferred to Public Square. 

I’d like to see more renderings, and cost estimates too, but the land bridge they’re proposing is a much better option than the Rosales bridge. The city has been psychologically disconnected from the water for too long. Rosales emphasizes  that disconnect. The land bridge helps cure it.

If you are not familiar with the Green Ribbon Coalition they are an advocacy group that promotes all thing lakefront. They have put together a proposal for a 'landbridge' connecting the mall to the lakefront.  https://www.greenribbonlakefront.org

 

Below is a link to the PDF

 

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/918855_5ef6d76864c34d748e650a59075aee9a.pdf

 

There was also a landbridge proposal about 10 years ago when the city was looking at bridge options.

I’d like to see more renderings, and cost estimates too, but the land bridge they’re proposing is a much better option than the Rosales bridge. The city has been psychologically disconnected from the water for too long. Rosales emphasizes  that disconnect. The land bridge helps cure it.

 

A land bridge, as suggested by this coalition, will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build. No one has that kind of money. There is money available now to build two basic, enclosed walkways -- one over the railroad tracks and one over the Shoreway with an intermodal center in between them.

I was playing around with a concept I had in mind for connecting The Burnham Malls with North Coast Harbor. First plan is to extend the  Huntington Parking Structure and Willard park's structure . Huntington would extend all the way to the Shoreway Bridge.  This would alleviate the need for more Convention Center parking ,courthouses, and for events at First Energy Stadium.  Willard Park's structure should be filled in all the way o East 9th St.  Both rooftops of these structures should be turned into green spaces and the east west promenade restored from West 3rd to East 9th. The most dramatic change would be to extend the existing promenades as land bridges crossing the railroad tracks and shore way. Instead of sloping down, these should remain level with Mall C.  The west promenade would land at the second level of The First Energy Stadium . This would provide a better flow iand connection to activate the Malls during sporting events, i.e. tailgate parties.  The two promenades would end at a new overlook that would have escalators and elevators to the redesigned plazas below.  I would eliminate the drop off area to the front of The GLSC and hardscape the area between GLSC and RRHF .  This still provides an added area for a connector building between the 2 museums.  The promenade extension building below could also act as a restaurant /retail space.  This plan also leaves the area east of the extended area for the eventual multimodal transportation center.  This could easily connect to the raised land bridge promenades.  Thoughts

Very nice design. But again, very expensive. For context, building this North Coast Transportation Center with a green roof/Mall D would cost about $125 million to $150 million....

Nice mockup, Dave. Not a huge fan of what you did with the northern terminus of the land bridge. Though having played around with my own lakefront land bridge concepts I certainly understand the difficulties in ending a land bridge gracefully with the current layout/infrastructure here.

I've always thought that instead of bridging the Shoreway we should follow through on plans to convert it to a boulevard and combine in the Marginal Roads, thus leaving only the tracks to be bridged- as KJP's rendering shown, but with a larger footprint like dave2017's rendering.  With the right mix of uses in the landing structure between the new Shoreway Boulevard and the tracks it could generate some revenue to offset the costs of construction- though I wouldn't expect it to be a money maker.

The climate is also RIPE (with the growth of the Hingetown-Detroit Shoreway cooridor) to spend political capital to finally push through the re-routing of freight traffic off of this route that KJP has mentioned many times on this forum.  Removing most of that traffic would help simplify construction, and the actual enjoyment of the area.

Detroit RiverWalk link features path over water

 

 

Newly released renderings of a proposed link for the Detroit RiverWalk show it would jut onto the river and connect the 3.5-mile pedestrian/bicycle trail with West Riverfront Park.

 

The updated images highlight a public RiverWalk path that sits atop the Detroit River and is 17 feet from the current water’s edge, which is private property. The property is part of the Riverfront Towers, a rental and condominium complex. The residential complex, made up of three residential towers, is just west of Joe Louis Arena.

 

More below:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2018/01/12/detroit-riverwalk-addition/109406688/

 

Cross posting from the Detroit thread....I've always thought the part of the Cleveland harbor fronting Burke Lakefront would be great from something like this.  There is a shipping channel there that is rarely (if ever) used by large vessels.  A greenway around Burke complete with some dockage would be a nice use of the space, plus aid in connecting the apartments and marinas east of Burke to the North Coast harbor area.

^Re "greenway around Burke". 

 

First, sounds like a security issue, though boats can get just as close on the water. But either way this would be an uphil battle with TSA/DHS.

Secondly, you certainly wouldn't want trees in the greenway. Trees attract birds and birds and jet engines don't go so well together.

 

Cross posting from the Detroit thread....I've always thought the part of the Cleveland harbor fronting Burke Lakefront would be great from something like this.  There is a shipping channel there that is rarely (if ever) used by large vessels.  A greenway around Burke complete with some dockage would be a nice use of the space, plus aid in connecting the apartments and marinas east of Burke to the North Coast harbor area.

 

I hear you. A community among the wetlands with lake access, connected by boardwalks, in close proximity yet separate from the city....could be something really special. 

^Re "greenway around Burke". 

 

First, sounds like a security issue, though boats can get just as close on the water. But either way this would be an uphil battle with TSA/DHS.

Secondly, you certainly wouldn't want trees in the greenway. Trees attract birds and birds and jet engines don't go so well together.

 

 

True--trees could not be a part of it.  But I can't see how having a walkway around the airport would be a huge issue.  At any other airport you can walk right up to the fence surrounding the facility.  Plus, you can't see it really unless you're in the air, but there is a large buffer of additional landfill next to 3/4 of Runway 24R/6L. 

 

 

 

Is the Outlet Mall proposal dead? I noticed that a proposal from the company behind this withdrew from a project in Connecticut due to issues with lending in the retail market. Been nothing on this since it was first mooted in July 2016.

Burke Airport is such an interesting asset and potential development site for Cleveland. On the one hand, it's absolutely incredible to have a working airport literally right next to downtown. I took the Ultimate Air Shuttle from there to Cincy last summer, and it was amazing to be able to leave the hotel 30 mins before the flight was scheduled to leave and just walk right on the plane and be in Cincy 45 mins later. For a business traveler, I can think of nothing better (though I was not flying for business at that time). It looks like there is some considerable room around the airport that could potentially be developed for air related business, if the airport is to be kept open long term. CVG has really seen tremendous growth from this type of stuff, with both DHL and Amazon having their North American logistics operations based there. Burke probably doesn't have the land or runway capacity for something on that scale, but it does seem like air cargo or other auxiliary airport developments could locate there, especially given the access that the site has to shipping ports, rail, freeways, etc.

 

On the other hand, it's prime lakefront land that could potentially be turned into something really cool. A whole new neighborhood could be built there with amazing views of the lake and the city. It could be really special, if done right. Regardless what happens, I think Burke Airport is a tremendous asset for Cleveland, though perhaps a bit underutilized at the moment.

Burke Airport is such an interesting asset and potential development site for Cleveland. On the one hand, it's absolutely incredible to have a working airport literally right next to downtown. I took the Ultimate Air Shuttle from there to Cincy last summer, and it was amazing to be able to leave the hotel 30 mins before the flight was scheduled to leave and just walk right on the plane and be in Cincy 45 mins later. For a business traveler, I can think of nothing better (though I was not flying for business at that time). It looks like there is some considerable room around the airport that could potentially be developed for air related business, if the airport is to be kept open long term. CVG has really seen tremendous growth from this type of stuff, with both DHL and Amazon having their North American logistics operations based there. Burke probably doesn't have the land or runway capacity for something on that scale, but it does seem like air cargo or other auxiliary airport developments could locate there, especially given the access that the site has to shipping ports, rail, freeways, etc.

 

On the other hand, it's prime lakefront land that could potentially be turned into something really cool. A whole new neighborhood could be built there with amazing views of the lake and the city. It could be really special, if done right. Regardless what happens, I think Burke Airport is a tremendous asset for Cleveland, though perhaps a bit underutilized at the moment.

 

I agree 100% in the push for Burke as an asset.  As mentioned in many threads on these forums, the City of Cleveland is anything but proactive when it comes to these kinds of economic development activities.  There is massive space along the marginal to offer to developers for aviation-related businesses--yet they sit empty, along with Aviation High School (which I believe is used for storage now).  Even little Cuyahoga County airport has more related business attached to it....

 

Burke is an asset that most cities our size (and larger) do not have.  Why we aren't exploiting it is beyond me.... 

Leadership.

I'd love to see how the books are balanced at the Lakefront Airport with about a couple of dozen weekly commercial flights on small aircrafts and only an additional handful of cargo flights.

I'd love to see how the books are balanced at the Lakefront Airport with about a couple of dozen weekly commercial flights on small aircrafts and only an additional handful of cargo flights.

 

Burke handles between 40-50,000 flights a year.

 

I couldn't find any financials newer than 2015, but have at it:  http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/sites/default/files/forms_publications/2015airport.pdf?id=8931

The only argument I've heard for maintain Burke as an airport is an economic argument.  But let's face it, that claim is no longer valid.  Burke has outlived its usefulness as an asset for drawing and retaining large corporate HQs, and now caters to a limited number of commercial and recreational interests.  It's no longer an economic driver, and arguably not even an economic factor considering Hopkins and Cuyahoga County airports are both within 15 miles.

 

In 2013 Chicago bulldozed Meigs Field.  It outlived it's usefulness.  The city's approach to reclaiming that land was controversial, but the land has been converted into public land.  It's outdoor amphitheater is an amazing venue for summer concerts and it's parklike setting is accessible to all.  It is a more valuable asset now to Chicago as public land than it was as prime real estate airport.

 

Cleveland isn't going to lose corporate HQs or suddenly become 'uncompetitive' if it reclaims Burke for parkland, residential, or mixed-use.  Cleveland has just as much to gain as Chicago did by converting and outdated airport to a better use of prime lakefront land.  I'd love to see what visionaries could with this currently unusable asset.

Daley had real balls when he bulldozed those X's because of "9-11," and the city is far better for it. Northerly Island is a gem desire some setbacks with erosion.

 

But I just can't see Jackson doing the same. Different kind of mayor.

^^a few points to jbdad2's post above:

1. Chicago has a secondary airport, after destroying Meigs--Midway--so its not the same. You'd have to say CHicago should tear down Midway in addition to having torn down Meigs (illegally) to have a similar argument.

2. By the way, BKL is a better airport than MDW.

3. Cuyahoga County is in no way a substitute for Burke. The closest airport in the region that has the capabilities would be CAK---which is of no use for Downtown CLE (when Hopkins is closer).

4. "The only argument I've heard for maintain Burke as an airport is an economic argument.  But let's face it, that claim is no longer valid." Says who? We're seeing a turn where the run to the suburbs is ending and companies want to be in Downtowns. Granted, we need some commercial service at Burke beyond Cincinnati to make it more functional. But Burke is truly an economic asset.

5. This alone may not justify the airport, but its the base for Cleveland Clinic operations.  If seconds count, getting from Hopkins over to the Clinic rather than from Burke may make a difference in someone's life.

 

 

Daley had real balls when he bulldozed those X's because of "9-11," and the city is far better for it. Northerly Island is a gem desire some setbacks with erosion.

 

But I just can't see Jackson doing the same. Different kind of mayor.

 

Thank God he is. Would you really want a mayor like that? Killing the airport does not make him a hero. You know, people had airplanes parked at the airport when he illegally destroyed it under cover of darkness. Yeah, that's the way to operate in a US city.

Jackson is certainly a more honorable person and mayor than Daley; that said, the city is still dramatically better off with his seizing the air field than before. And the airfield in Richmond Heights could feasibly absorb additional traffic and expand if that wasted Burke were ever properly developed. It's only ten miles away from downtown; Midway is 8.

 

^No. Cuyahoga County is a MUCH smaller facility than BKL. CGF is not a substitute or replacement for BKL in any way. Business jets fly from Burke straight to Europe. 737s, A321, 757s use Burke. None of that can be handled at the county airport.

4. "The only argument I've heard for maintain Burke as an airport is an economic argument.  But let's face it, that claim is no longer valid." Says who? We're seeing a turn where the run to the suburbs is ending and companies want to be in Downtowns. Granted, we need some commercial service at Burke beyond Cincinnati to make it more functional. But Burke is truly an economic asset.

 

 

Whoever runs Burke should lobby Ultimate Air Shuttle to expand service to other cities. Not that its reach will ever be that broad, but they go to Chicago, New York, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Cleveland from Cincinnati. I imagine there is similar demand for service to those locations in Cleveland, and the 'door to door' service is so convenient and easy. My parents almost exclusively use UAS to visit my sister in Cleveland these days. It makes a little weekend trip actually make sense, since you don't need to devote 9 hours to sitting in a car through cornfields and Cbus.

Needs a development plan first. This administration seems to like outlet malls along current lakefront property. Rather keep it an airport if there’s no vision tbh.

4. "The only argument I've heard for maintain Burke as an airport is an economic argument.  But let's face it, that claim is no longer valid." Says who? We're seeing a turn where the run to the suburbs is ending and companies want to be in Downtowns. Granted, we need some commercial service at Burke beyond Cincinnati to make it more functional. But Burke is truly an economic asset.

 

 

Whoever runs Burke should lobby Ultimate Air Shuttle to expand service to other cities. Not that its reach will ever be that broad, but they go to Chicago, New York, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Cleveland from Cincinnati. I imagine there is similar demand for service to those locations in Cleveland, and the 'door to door' service is so convenient and easy. My parents almost exclusively use UAS to visit my sister in Cleveland these days. It makes a little weekend trip actually make sense, since you don't need to devote 9 hours to sitting in a car through cornfields and Cbus.

 

I believe they are Cincinnati based, but a good pitch by Cleveland wouldn't hurt. 

 

I can say having flown LUK-BKL that the terminal/facilities are WAY nicer at Burke than Lunken. 

Ultimate is actually based at CAK, but they don't fly to/from there with scheduled service. But, to the main point, yes, service to NY, Chicago, and other places from Burke would do wonders for the city.

Needs a development plan first. This administration seems to like outlet malls along current lakefront property. Rather keep it an airport if there’s no vision tbh.

 

Wanted Burke to be gone; now, I think it should stay and be utilized and promoted for the asset it is.

 

I can say having flown LUK-BKL that the terminal/facilities are WAY nicer at Burke than Lunken.

 

Oh yeah, much nicer for sure. The way Lunken is set up, there are a lot of little hangars with their own facilities rather than one centralized one. The place where P&G stores their planes there is very nice. (not to derail the topic)

Needs a development plan first. This administration seems to like outlet malls along current lakefront property. Rather keep it an airport if there’s no vision tbh.

 

Agree on the outlet malls. There's no reason they should be on the lake. That is, unless they're designed specifically as part of a larger waterfront attraction, and that's not happening without a greater overall vision and a much better developer. 

 

Now wasn't it Geiss that had an ambitious looking plan for high or mid rise office space adjacent to Burke? We shouldn't be evaluating the value of the airport by what it is now, but what it can or should be. 

All the talk of closing Burke for development should first see how hard it is to even get development done around The North Coast Harbor. Efforts should be focused on making sure Cumberland carries through with their plans.  I am amazed how long or if The North Coast Harbor connecter bridge that has been planned and designed for more than 10 years still hasn't happened. 

All the talk of closing Burke for development should first see how hard it is to even get development done around The North Coast Harbor. Efforts should be focused on making sure Cumberland carries through with their plans.  I am amazed how long or if The North Coast Harbor connecter bridge that has been planned and designed for more than 10 years still hasn't happened. 

 

It's beyond frustrating. So we have decades worth of ideas with pretty pictures and not much else.

All the talk of closing Burke for development should first see how hard it is to even get development done around The North Coast Harbor. Efforts should be focused on making sure Cumberland carries through with their plans.  I am amazed how long or if The North Coast Harbor connecter bridge that has been planned and designed for more than 10 years still hasn't happened. 

 

It's beyond frustrating. So we have decades worth of ideas with pretty pictures and not much else.

 

Definitely one of the frustrations with urban planning... you can have the best plan in the world, but money and politics make the plans reality.

Needs a development plan first. This administration seems to like outlet malls along current lakefront property. Rather keep it an airport if there’s no vision tbh.

 

Agree on the outlet malls. There's no reason they should be on the lake. That is, unless they're designed specifically as part of a larger waterfront attraction, and that's not happening without a greater overall vision and a much better developer. 

 

Now wasn't it Geiss that had an ambitious looking plan for high or mid rise office space adjacent to Burke? We shouldn't be evaluating the value of the airport by what it is now, but what it can or should be.

 

The pedestrian bridge from Mall C to the lakefront is a must.  Having E 9th Street as the main access to the lakefront/North Coast Harbor is a disaster. 

Needs a development plan first. This administration seems to like outlet malls along current lakefront property. Rather keep it an airport if there’s no vision tbh.

 

Agree on the outlet malls. There's no reason they should be on the lake. That is, unless they're designed specifically as part of a larger waterfront attraction, and that's not happening without a greater overall vision and a much better developer. 

 

Now wasn't it Geiss that had an ambitious looking plan for high or mid rise office space adjacent to Burke? We shouldn't be evaluating the value of the airport by what it is now, but what it can or should be.

 

The pedestrian bridge from Mall C to the lakefront is a must.  Having E 9th Street as the main access to the lakefront/North Coast Harbor is a disaster. 

 

Watch the poor people simply trying to cross the street, especially early in the a.m. rush. They know they could be killed by a car at any moment.

^ This could've been mitigate if the Shorewaye became an actual boulevard or if they moved the on and off ramp away from East 9th.

Needs a development plan first. This administration seems to like outlet malls along current lakefront property. Rather keep it an airport if there’s no vision tbh.

 

Agree on the outlet malls. There's no reason they should be on the lake. That is, unless they're designed specifically as part of a larger waterfront attraction, and that's not happening without a greater overall vision and a much better developer. 

 

Now wasn't it Geiss that had an ambitious looking plan for high or mid rise office space adjacent to Burke? We shouldn't be evaluating the value of the airport by what it is now, but what it can or should be.

 

The pedestrian bridge from Mall C to the lakefront is a must.  Having E 9th Street as the main access to the lakefront/North Coast Harbor is a disaster. 

 

Watch the poor people simply trying to cross the street, especially early in the a.m. rush. They know they could be killed by a car at any moment.

 

So true.  Try biking to the lakefront via E 9th Street, especially in the summer.  Between parking garage entrances, access to the east/west shoreway, Rock-n-Roll Blvd, the N Marginal, there were about 9 vehicle access points to and from E 9th.  Seeing those cars hurtling toward you exiting from the shoreway...pedestrians/bikers have to be alert down there no doubt.

 

The good point though is that there are a lot of people enjoying the area.

 

Btw, there were no bike racks on North Coast Harbor!

Watch the poor people simply trying to cross the street, especially early in the a.m. rush. They know they could be killed by a car at any moment.

 

So true.  Try biking to the lakefront via E 9th Street, especially in the summer.  Between parking garage entrances, access to the east/west shoreway, Rock-n-Roll Blvd, the N Marginal, there were about 9 vehicle access points to and from E 9th.  Seeing those cars hurtling toward you exiting from the shoreway...pedestrians/bikers have to be alert down there no doubt.

 

The good point though is that there are a lot of people enjoying the area.

 

Btw, there were no bike racks on North Coast Harbor!

 

I would never, ever bike that stretch of E. 9th. I've seen too much haha. 

 

Oh, the next person who blares there horn behind me while I'm waiting for pedestrians to legally cross, I'm going to take a baseball bat to your windshield.

Who knew you could own a piece of the Lakefront so easily??

 

What a blank canvas of an opportunity:

 

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/N-Marginal-Rd-Cleveland-OH-44114/2099601016_zpid

^so that's right behind Quay 55 or the Shoreline as it's now called. Prime land right between the two boating marinas. Landmark just recently acquired Quay so maybe they have their eye on it for expansion.  Seems like a bargain at that price.

Actually, I would hope Metroparks can acquire that and make it part of Gordon Park.  It would work well as an area large enough to anchor the west end of the park once CPP is demolished and the highway moved.

Demolishing CPP has always been my dream. Having that off of the lakefront would change the whole perception of the shoreline.  If not demo then maybe at least scaled down in some way.  There needs to be a discussion for the long-term in removing or moving it. 

http://www.rockthelake.com/buzz/2018/01/pedestrian-bridge-north-coast-harbor-works/

 

Pedestrian bridge over North Coast Harbor in the works

By Laura Johnston | January 16, 2018

 

Remember the plans for the North Coast Harbor pedestrian drawbridge connecting Voinovich Park to the plaza near the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

 

After nine years, $6 million project could be on its way to fruition.

 

The city of Cleveland is working with the Ohio Department of Transportation on the project, and bids for the work are due Feb. 15, said city spokesman Dan Williams.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately this is for the hideous  CDM Smith  drawbridge design and not the refined Rosales version. At this point the project should just be scrapped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ Agree it's an ugly duckling. I'll be curious as to how much this will be utilized. NCH needs a redesign built around pedestrians. It will remain underutilized space until there is improved interaction between the separate attractions. What we have now is just really disjointed.

 

Now the Wendy Park bridge on the other hand is an instant game changer. That cannot come soon enough.