Maybe their could be some sort of public/private cooperation on this.  The land bridge and intermodal project could be part of some larger private development.  Of course the odds of that were better if we had thought of that before Pace began making his plans for North Coast Harbor.

^In a weak market city like Cleveland, the subsidy almost always runs the other way. Can't imagine private development would ever be rich enough to cross subside a huge capital project like a land bridge.

 

This would be great, but Cleveland would probably cheap it out like they did with Public Square. It would end up in a state of non-completion like Public Square.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.  Public Square was not "cheap"ed out.  It is widely considered a smashing success.  Even Steven Litt in the PD raved about it upon it's opening.  Also, by non-completion, to what are you referring?  If you mean the temporary barriers, that's because the Dept of Homeland Security recommended barriers after the project was finished.  There will be more attractive permanent barriers installed.

 

This would be great, but Cleveland would probably cheap it out like they did with Public Square. It would end up in a state of non-completion like Public Square.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.  Public Square was not "cheap"ed out.  It is widely considered a smashing success.  Even Steven Litt in the PD raved about it upon it's opening.  Also, by non-completion, to what are you referring?  If you mean the temporary barriers, that's because the Dept of Homeland Security recommended barriers after the project was finished.  There will be more attractive permanent barriers installed.

 

I agree that Public Square was not “cheaped” by any stretch of the imagination.

 

But I would like to push back on the notion that DHS recommendation it closed. The City Safety Director recommended it closed, justifying that based in part on a memo from the US House committee on Homeland Securtiy regarding truck attacks.

 

The federal government never weighed in on Public Square specifically as far as I’m aware.

 

The federal government never weighed in on Public Square specifically as far as I’m aware.

 

It did from a transportation perspective-- having to approve the change to a federal highway route and to deny the discontinuity of dedicated transit lanes on Superior that were funded in part by a federal grant.

Nothing really new in this report from WEWS but some decent video.

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/e-team/north-coast-harbor-harbor-verandas-project-development

I am interested to see what the developers have planned between RRHF and GLSC.  The video says an announcement should be made by late summer. This development will ultimately have an effect on whatever pedestrian bridge is planned to connect The Malls to the lakefront.

^ Hotel

^ Hotel

 

Not a bad idea unless our hotel market is saturated already, I don't know if it is.

^ Hotel

 

Not a bad idea unless our hotel market is saturated already, I don't know if it is.

 

Probably pretty close considering we had to boost the numbers for RNC.

If you want to get a room downtown this weekend, the cheapest price is ~$330 per night.  That to me doesn't scream over-saturation, if people are pulling those kind of rates I think it can support new construction, especially small-scale.  Maybe in the wintertime when tourism is low it might be a different story, but if you can make your money in the summer you ought to be able to get through the winter with more competitive rates.

If you want to get a room downtown this weekend, the cheapest price is ~$330 per night.  That to me doesn't scream over-saturation, if people are pulling those kind of rates I think it can support new construction, especially small-scale.  Maybe in the wintertime when tourism is low it might be a different story, but if you can make your money in the summer you ought to be able to get through the winter with more competitive rates.

 

They Yankees are in town so they're offering a taste of New York prices. ;)

^ Hotel

 

Wasn't there a rendering or massing a few years back of a future hotel between the two that looked like a suburban mid-market thing? That would be awful. And was that Pace or someone else? Hoping that whatever gets proposed/built there is architecturally acceptable.

If you want to get a room downtown this weekend, the cheapest price is ~$330 per night.  That to me doesn't scream over-saturation, if people are pulling those kind of rates I think it can support new construction, especially small-scale.  Maybe in the wintertime when tourism is low it might be a different story, but if you can make your money in the summer you ought to be able to get through the winter with more competitive rates.

 

They Yankees are in town so they're offering a taste of New York prices. ;)

 

Whoa. Downtown hotel rates are absolutely insane this weekend.  Guess we are gouging NYC.

Just saw this popup ad on cnn.com FAKE NEWS!!!!

 

 

edit - here's the where the link takes you https://flatsateastbank.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIurfT2cWc3AIVFn5-Ch1u_gSFEAEYASAAEgLYtPD_BwE

wow---that's the definition of false advertising, isn't it? nice high rise bldg shown instead of the actual 8-story one?

According to their website there are only 5 apartments available with more coming in the future.

There's something a little odd/fishy about that ad. "Flats at East Banks", plus the totally bogus photo?

 

Unless they've outsourced ads to an agency who is doing a terrible job... Plus if there are only 5 vacancies they'd have little reason to advertise on what is likely an expensive platform.

 

FYI: The little triangle icon on ads all around the internet will generally show who what service served the ad and why the ad was targeted to you.

Here are plans showing the components proposed north of First Energy Stadium. I  don't understand why there is a need to put a road all along the northern edge of the development. This should be open green space 

I hope the city steps in and enforces a little better use than a road there.  A walking/bike path would be great.

As long as there's room along the waterfront for a wide bike/ped bath plus a passive zone (benches, standing at the water's edge), not sure having a road is such a problem. Would love to see a section view of the edge, but even in those renderings it's pretty clear there's a fairly wide bike/ped hardscape along the waterfront.

Of the above new bldgs/parking, what happens first and when?

Perhaps that road is required for fire and safety access to those sections of the project.

^That diagram is as least three years old and I would imagine that the siting etc is just conceptual.  Pace is allegedly negotiating with a couple of commercial tenants and what their needs and desires are will probably guide the final plan (or at least the initial phase behind the stadium)

Unfortunately, Green Ribbon Coalition doesn't have any money behind it. Some nice guys with big ideas though...

 

Six big, bold ideas that could change Cleveland as we know it

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/bigboldideas2018.aspx

Unfortunately, Green Ribbon Coalition doesn't have any money behind it. Some nice guys with big ideas though...

 

Six big, bold ideas that could change Cleveland as we know it

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/bigboldideas2018.aspx

 

Moreno's Blockchain idea is really cool - I'd love to see Case start getting in front of that

Unfortunately, Green Ribbon Coalition doesn't have any money behind it. Some nice guys with big ideas though...

 

Six big, bold ideas that could change Cleveland as we know it

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/bigboldideas2018.aspx

I'm curious to find out how much more a land bridge would cost in comparison to that of the $25 million cable bridge that was proposed. It is a much better idea that can be multi use for visitors, families and other residents alike instead of just being a connector, a much better investment imo.

 

I'm curious to find out how much more a land bridge would cost in comparison to that of the $25 million cable bridge that was proposed. It is a much better idea that can be multi use for visitors, families and other residents alike instead of just being a connector, a much better investment imo.

 

Don't know how much their proposed land bridge would cost, but to offer some context this smaller, proposed multimodal station with a green roof (thus creating a Mall D) would have cost $125 million in the late 1990s. That price tag doesn't include the parking garage, hotel tower, redesigned Shoreway, etc....

 

Downtown's very first lakefront apartments are on the horizon

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/harborverandas072618.aspx

Downtown's very first lakefront apartments are on the horizon

http://www.freshwatercleveland.com/features/harborverandas072618.aspx

 

Twenty years ago, the initial North Coast Harbor project was completed—capping off the addition of a $10 million manmade inner lake....

 

Um, what? Are they trying to say the word "harbor?"

I think that the next phase will be a small boutique hotel. But they could

have something else in mind.

So apparently The Outlet Shoppes of Cleveland still might be a thing. Looking through Horizon Groups 2018 annual report which features Cleveland on the cover they go into detail their hopes to establish an outlet center on the lakefront. And this video which was posted to YouTube within the last couple months shows the site plan. So it looks like things may be happening behind the scenes, although with the state of retail as it is today it just may not be feasible.

 

From the report:

We are very excited about our newest site in downtown Cleveland, near the Rock & Roll Hall of

Fame, the Huntington Convention Center of Cleveland, and Burke Lakefront Airport. It is a

short distance from many of the new and redeveloped downtown hotels, professional sports

venues and other tourist attractions. It is also not far from the famed Cleveland Clinic and Case

Western University. Over 2.2 million people live within 30 miles of the site, including an ever-

increasing number of downtown residents.

We are proposing a two-level center containing approximately 350,000 square feet of rentable

area. We are in the early stages of design and cost estimating. There is no question that the site

will be more costly to develop than our typical site and will thus require some type of public-

private partnership. Our discussions to date with city and county officials have been very

positive but we have a number of tasks to complete before we can begin development.

The decline in the number of retailers doing outlet stores and the proximity of the center to the

downtown and its tourist population allows for a larger food and entertainment component than

we would typically include in a new development. We anticipate that at least a third of the space

will be dedicated to these uses. We hope to add our center to the already vibrant food and

entertainment venues in downtown Cleveland. The location of the center allows us to create

dining spaces with vistas of the lakefront. There are surprisingly few existing dining options

with views to the lakefront.

We were quite pleased by the positive comments about the proposed center from the participants

in focus groups we recently conducted in the market, and we gained some valuable information

from this exercise. We are further encouraged by the positive reception of the project from

retailers who recognize the absence of strong outlet options in this market.

So close to the Waterfront Line, and yet so far. Extend the Waterfront Line 3,000 feet for about $15 million.

^There is better chance this thing would be built than that ever happening.

If only we could get someone to head the RTA that understands theses things....hmmm...

I’m in favor of this, even though I know I’ll be cursing it when it has traffic backed up on the highway

Pretty much the worse thing that could happen on the lakefront.  Unneeded, ugly, cheap looking, a lowest common denominator development and an embarrassment compared to what other cities are doing on their lakefronts. 

Pretty much the worse thing that could happen on the lakefront.  Unneeded, ugly, cheap looking, a lowest common denominator development and an embarrassment compared to what other cities are doing on their lakefronts. 

 

This isn’t even truly lakefront property. It’s completely blocked off by Burke...

^^Agreed, except that I don't think this is really prime "lakefront" property.  It's sort of a weird corner, kind of near the lake, but wedged between an airport, highways, and railroads.  The closest it gets to the lakefront is 1/3 mile away from water. 

 

If there seemed like any chance that the Shoreway could be converted to a boulevard and Burke closed and redeveloped, then this site could be the backend of a lakefront neighborhood, for sure.

If this was proposed next to the water, then I wouldn't like it. Instead, it is proposed where an old railroad yard, called East 26th Street Yard, stored and assembled ore trains. It hasn't been prime lakefront land for nearly two centuries.

Prime lakefront property or not, this is an exurban development on the footstep of downtown. Not quite sure why this should get a pass by some on here.

 

You guys should actually check out what Horizon builds. Mostly strip outlet centers off of Interstates. Stuff that is a notch above a WalMart Supercenter.

 

That being said it will struggle to see the light of day. This isn’t a high-end outlet mall. It’s standard retail which is fighting Amazon and the like tooth and nail, not to mention Aurora and Lodi. So it’s probably much ado about nothing.

 

Also a public-private partnership for an indoor strip mall?  Really?

 

Dumb question, am I senile, or wasn't this project initially proposed for north of the Shoreway?

Yes good call. I thought something was different. It was originally meant for the property that Geis had an option on. Next to the COD.

If this was proposed next to the water, then I wouldn't like it. Instead, it is proposed where an old railroad yard, called East 26th Street Yard, stored and assembled ore trains. It hasn't been prime lakefront land for nearly two centuries.

 

Exactly. Some would rather see it vacant than it actually be something that could bring people in who would probably never visit Cleveland, let alone downtown. This isn’t on the prime real estate. And who knows, the extra traffic could lead to really cool things that we DO want being built as well

I would much rather see Euclid Ave storefronts turned back into a retail hub than build this mall that has no connectivity to the centralized, residential population growth in downtown.

Heck no. An indoor mall downtown? Let’s not try this again.

 

Plus, can you imagine all the traffic that would have to crowd through the East 9th exit? No way. We can do better than this.

Heck no. An indoor mall downtown? Let’s not try this again.

 

And an indoor OUTLET MALL at that....

I would much rather see Euclid Ave storefronts turned back into a retail hub than build this mall that has no connectivity to the centralized, residential population growth in downtown.

 

When Cleveland has a core city (downtown+Tremont+Asiatown+Ohio City) population of 100,000 and a robust transit system, then that's a possibility. The only way downtown/near downtown gets a significant, unique retail presence today is if it's next to the highway system in which hundreds of thousands of suburbanites (ie: the folks that have purchasing power) can get to by car in less time than it takes to get to Aurora Farms or Lodi. AND they can park for free.

 

Is that what I want? Of course not. I want Euclid Avenue to be the shopping mecca it once was. But that city went away 50 years ago. Today, if we can provide unique retail goods within 20 minutes of most of Cuyahoga County AND also be accessible by transit so inner city residents can shop too AND provide jobs to inner city residents, then it's the best possible outcome given the demographics and transportation services of today.

How are Tower City and the Galleria working out? Yet building Lodi near downtown will now work.

 

This structure will be totally catered to suburbanites driving in and out. This will not be a tourist destination for people from other cities. Attractions built around it will be Burger Kings and gas stations.

 

Some of you are fooling yourselves into thinking this will be anything urban or attractive. This is a dressed up WalMart strip center. It shouldn’t get a pass because it will create low-paying jobs.

 

 

 

I think a graffiti wall made entirely from human feces would be just as popular as an outlet mall.

How are Tower City and the Galleria working out?

Yet building Lodi near downtown will now work.

 

This structure will be totally catered to suburbanites driving in and out. This will not be a tourist destination for people from other cities. Attractions built around it will be Burger Kings and gas stations.

 

You guys are fooling yourselves into thinking this will be anything urban.

 

One weird thing though, whenever I travel with friends at some point in the trip they almost always gravitate toward recognizable retail. I think this can work. But at the same time the city can not allow a totally cut-off, traffic snarling exurban design. Demand a good building. And for the love of God give people the option to take RTA or park somewhere else downtown and walk there.