February 2, 20214 yr They really enhanced the area surrounding the stadium in that mock-up. I see they also buried the shoreway and rail tracks! By the way, Bob Corna was the architect who proposed Hexatron back in the 80s. Edited February 2, 20214 yr by skiwest
February 2, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, dave2017 said: Great video regarding the retractable roof option https://www.usatoday.com/videos/sports/2012/09/21/1586079/ This proposal would have cost between $70 million to $90 million dollars. I also like the bridge from Mall C to whatever was proposed at the edge of Lake Erie. I like this concept far more than the idea of building new. That said, most of the numbers quoted in that article seem unrealistic. The $70-90M to add a retractable roof seems like wishful thinking to me, but then they quote someone else projecting a cost of $45-50M. I have a very hard time believing that cost estimate. Then another person was quote saying we'd get 200-250 more events per year. That is also complete nonsense. I could see 30-50 additional events, MAYBE, but domes don't pull anywhere near as many events as arenas. Anyway, I think there's a case to be made, but I want it to be based on realistic projections. I do like the idea of hosting a Super Bowl and a Final Four. Also, whoever made that mock-up hates cars, buildings, parking, people, and transit. But at least they love parks and waterfront. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 2, 20214 yr 37 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: I like this concept far more than the idea of building new. That said, most of the numbers quoted in that article seem unrealistic. The $70-90M to add a retractable roof seems like wishful thinking to me, but then they quote someone else projecting a cost of $45-50M. I have a very hard time believing that cost estimate. Then another person was quote saying we'd get 200-250 more events per year. That is also complete nonsense. I could see 30-50 additional events, MAYBE, but domes don't pull anywhere near as many events as arenas. Anyway, I think there's a case to be made, but I want it to be based on realistic projections. I do like the idea of hosting a Super Bowl and a Final Four. Also, whoever made that mock-up hates cars, buildings, parking, people, and transit. But at least they love parks and waterfront. Other major sports events include competing with Indiana to host the B1G football championship game and getting a college football bowl game in Cleveland.
February 2, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Also, whoever made that mock-up hates cars, buildings, parking, people, and transit. But at least they love parks and waterfront. That was made by architect Bob Corna some 20 years ago. I interviewed him a few times back then. He was also K&D's architect for Stonebridge. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 2, 20214 yr 22 hours ago, KJP said: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 1, 2021 Cleveland's lakefront may get boost from new stadium, trains, ships Lots of pieces are coming into place that could greatly impact downtown Cleveland's lakefront in a very positive way. There are many challenges to be sure, but it seems that the planets are aligning for good things to happen. These good things center on three basic ingredients -- trains/transit, shipping and development. MORE: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/02/clevelands-lakefront-may-get-boost-from.html I don't like the sound of more ships coming into the great lakes. I recently finished reading "The Death and Life of the Great Lakes" by Dan Egan and those ships are the main source of invasive species. No matter how many protections they put in place something will always get through. Ships might save a day or two, but compare that cost to the cost the further destruction of the great lakes ecosystem will have.
February 2, 20214 yr 16 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Then another person was quote saying we'd get 200-250 more events per year. That is also complete nonsense. I could see 30-50 additional events, MAYBE, but domes don't pull anywhere near as many events as arenas. Anyway, I think there's a case to be made, but I want it to be based on realistic projections. I do like the idea of hosting a Super Bowl and a Final Four. Agreed. Take a look at the website for any of the domed stadiums and the calendar is filled up more weddings and barmitzvahs than major events (which of course we all want in Cleveland). Like Indy, we could do a direct connection to the Convention Center via the new land bridge/intermodal transport center, which could bump up the event count, even if they are smaller sized.
February 3, 20214 yr On 1/27/2021 at 11:43 AM, Paul in Cleveland said: Several entities are participating in a study of the eastern lakefront, from roughly E. 40th through MLK Blvd.: • ODOT (interests are reduced wave action on I-90 and possible removal of old CEI power plant bridges) • Port Authority • Cleveland Metroparks • City of Cleveland • ODNR The Study team is starting to look at possible future project concepts. There is a community meeting on Tuesday night, Feb. 2nd at 7 p.m. The following link has information on the concepts and a survey you can fill out to provide your feedback ... https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/about/cleveland-metroparks-organization/planning/cleveland-harbor-eastern-embayment-resilience-stud I attended the session this evening. Lots of good proposals. The good news is that even if you missed it, the link from Paul's post has much of the same content and plans. Follow this link, review the plans, and take the survey! https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/about/cleveland-metroparks-organization/planning/cleveland-harbor-eastern-embayment-resilience-stud There was zero discussion of re-routing the Shoreway. It seems that ODOT is hoping that building one of these projects will provide the protection for the highway from the lake in the winter. (They didn't say that; I'm just assuming.) Some of the concepts that I liked the best: "The Bridge" in the "Play at the Shore" proposal: The "Lake Playscape" from the "Play at the Shore" proposal: "The Launch" - a protected cove south of the Shoreway for launching kayaks and such, with a water connection under the highway. From the "Touch the Water" proposal. "The Island" from the "Connect with Nature" proposal: "The Link" - a better connection to Rockefeller Park under the highway. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 5, 20214 yr ^ ha yeah, funny how that was dodged. i guess odot needs to save their money for another columbus highway upgrade. i love the bridge on #3, very smooth and clever. i recognize the kiddie slides on the playscape on #6. those are on governors island out here. ive put them to use with kids, its a great idea to have in a park. its also fun to have a little man-made mountain to walk and climb on. my only concern is something like tha should be on the east end, not the west end. you do not want to block the western city views. i dk about #1 and #5, a barrier island, especially upkeep with rough lake erie, but hey why not, it looks nice.
February 5, 20214 yr If the highway won't be moved, then move the entire park north of the interstate on land created from dredgings. Then develop the land south of the highway with high-rise housing. I would love for that area to look a smaller version of Toronto's Humber Bay area. It's a striking entrance on the QEW into the core of Toronto. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 5, 20214 yr BTW, the warehouses north of First Energy Stadium were demolished today. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 5, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: BTW, the warehouses north of First Energy Stadium were demolished today. Well, I guess my personally preferred version of the Lakefront Plan just died.
February 6, 20214 yr Not the best views of the demo site because it's so far away, so I zoomed in a bit but lost clarity.. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20214 yr On 2/2/2021 at 9:08 PM, Boomerang_Brian said: It seems that ODOT is hoping that building one of these projects will provide the protection for the highway from the lake in the winter. During Winter, waves lapping up and onto the Shoreway, turning into thick sheets of ice and icicles, had been a problem since I was a kid; more than half a century. Cars would literally slide sideways along that stretch of the Shoreway. It sounds like no progress has been made since the 60s. Edited February 7, 20214 yr by Frmr CLEder
February 12, 20214 yr This one is paywalled, but Mayor Jackson is endorsing the landbridge, combined with Amtrak station and multi-modal transit hub. He made positive comments on the Amtrak expansion proposals. The whole interview makes it sound like he is planning on running again. Please retire. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/02/frank-jackson-opens-up-on-planning-neighborhoods-lakefront-before-upcoming-building-the-21st-century-city-symposium.html When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 12, 20214 yr 6 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: This one is paywalled, but Mayor Jackson is endorsing the landbridge, combined with Amtrak station and multi-modal transit hub. He made positive comments on the Amtrak expansion proposals. The whole interview makes it sound like he is planning on running again. Please retire. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/02/frank-jackson-opens-up-on-planning-neighborhoods-lakefront-before-upcoming-building-the-21st-century-city-symposium.html Yeah unfortunately it sounds like it. Don't think he actually will do it if elected. He is just saying want the people want to hear.
February 12, 20214 yr 23 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: This one is paywalled, but Mayor Jackson is endorsing the landbridge, combined with Amtrak station and multi-modal transit hub. He made positive comments on the Amtrak expansion proposals. The whole interview makes it sound like he is planning on running again. Please retire. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/02/frank-jackson-opens-up-on-planning-neighborhoods-lakefront-before-upcoming-building-the-21st-century-city-symposium.html This should be phase 1. A phase 2 should stretch from this to East 9th.
February 12, 20214 yr City support for the new multimodal station / North Coast Transportation Center and the Land Bridge is good to hear. Also interesting to me was this section: "...Jackson and Collier sketched a verbal picture of extending the downtown street grid to attractions at North Coast Harbor by removing or modifying the elevated section of the Ohio 2 Shoreway, which descends from the east end of the Main Avenue Bridge at West Ninth Street to just east of West Third Street south of FirstEnergy Stadium. Collier likened the curving section of the Shoreway to a spoon sticking out of a Tupperware container that needs to be removed in order to close the lid." Frank Jackson opens up on planning neighborhoods, lakefront, before upcoming ‘Building the 21st Century City’ symposium - Steven Litt I can't recall if Collier or Jackson had talked about removing the Shoreway in the past, but its good to know they are talking about it now and realize that it is an impediment to improved connections and further development on the lakefront. Billions of dollars in federal support for urban highway removal may also be coming soon, so hopefully be could take advantage of that program. How the Federal Government Could Help Kill the Highways It Built - Max Reyes - CityLab - Feb. 1, 2021 Edited February 12, 20214 yr by NorthShore647
February 12, 20214 yr Amtrak shopped their expansion plans to city officials around the state. When they met with Cleveland city and NOACA officials (separately), all were overjoyed. The general consensus from each meeting was: "I think we're going to need a bigger train station." "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 12, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said: "...Jackson and Collier sketched a verbal picture of extending the downtown street grid to attractions at North Coast Harbor by removing or modifying the elevated section of the Ohio 2 Shoreway, which descends from the east end of the Main Avenue Bridge at West Ninth Street to just east of West Third Street south of FirstEnergy Stadium. Collier likened the curving section of the Shoreway to a spoon sticking out of a Tupperware container that needs to be removed in order to close the lid." Maybe they can sketch a real picture for us to see. Are they thinking about replacing the Main Ave Bridge with a lower drawbridge or burying the shoreway? Whatever they decide will have to be done relatively soon. I've heard of a fork in the road, but not a spoon. Edited February 12, 20214 yr by skiwest
February 12, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, cle_guy90 said: Yeah unfortunately it sounds like it. Don't think he actually will do it if elected. He is just saying want the people want to hear. It’s amazing that the mayor gets no credit for all of the good in the city and all of the blame for the bad. As someone who has talked to the mayor directly on numerous occasions, he’s a good man, smarter than people give him credit for, and pragmatic. I don’t want to piss the Mods off so that’s all I’ll say
February 12, 20214 yr If there's an Amtrak station under the land bridge is that more likely to (a) let us leverage Amtrak money to get the land bridge built, or (b) turn the land bridge into an even bigger and harder to pull off task?
February 12, 20214 yr 17 minutes ago, skiwest said: Maybe they can sketch a real picture for us to see. Are they thinking about replacing the Main Ave Bridge with a lower drawbridge or burying the shoreway? Whatever they decide will have to be done relatively soon. I think the Main Avenue Bridge removal / replacement from Ohio City to Downtown is another question altogether. They are referring to the viaduct between ~West 9th and its touchdown by the current Amtrak Station. I imagined a removal of the Shoreway downtown would likely maintain the Main Avenue Bridge and its connection to Lakeside Avenue. It could also connect to a new lowered boulevard with intersections replacing the Shoreway until the I-90 interchange. The cities Lakefront Plan from 2004 (pursued/adopted by mayor Campbell who preceded Jackson) illustrates this potential alternative for the Shoreway well. https://www.clevelandmetroparks.com/getmedia/3791b708-c201-464e-a0cf-41808cfcdcc9/Cleveland-Waterfront-District-Plan-Dec2014.pdf.ashx The Main Avenue Bridges future will have to be addressed soon though as it is structurally deficient. I don't believe this is right thread to discuss it.
February 12, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said: The Main Avenue Bridges future will have to be addressed soon though as it is structurally deficient. Oh, no. Really? I was hoping that big refurbishment 20 years or so ago would have given it another 30 years. It's a beautiful span.
February 13, 20214 yr ^ Yes, I too agree that the Main Avenue bridge is a beautiful span when viewed from the Flats. From ground level it is an imposing and yet somehow elegant structure. It connects both sides of the river visually and gives definition and a sense of place to the Flats. At the same time the apparent need for a highway ramp that divides the waterfront from downtown is a major problem. The question I have is, is there a way to save the bridge and yet somehow eliminate the highway separating it from downtown? If so, that would be the best of both worlds.
February 13, 20214 yr 15 minutes ago, cadmen said: ^ Yes, I too agree that the Main Avenue bridge is a beautiful span when viewed from the Flats. From ground level it is an imposing and yet somehow elegant structure. It connects both sides of the river visually and gives definition and a sense of place to the Flats. At the same time the apparent need for a highway ramp that divides the waterfront from downtown is a major problem. The question I have is, is there a way to save the bridge and yet somehow eliminate the highway separating it from downtown? If so, that would be the best of both worlds. It would be most interesting to see a cost-benefit analysis of all the options. It does however seem the real estate directly under and near the bridge is practically worthless* in its current state. *I think UO is a safe space to term surface parking as worthless :-) Edited February 13, 20214 yr by surfohio
February 13, 20214 yr Port warehouse site is completely cleared and graded. Looks ready for what’s next...
February 13, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, skiwest said: And until then, it will be surface parking. Pretty sure NFL is going to construct something substantial for the draft. Then yes it will be a lot after that. I still contend that whatever is built should be used as an outdoor concert venue till a real plan comes together. Edited February 13, 20214 yr by Taller_is_better
February 13, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, Taller_is_better said: Pretty sure NFL is going to construct something substantial for the draft. Then yes it will be a lot after that. I still contend that whatever is built should be used as an outdoor concert venue till a real plan comes together. We have a 5,000 seat venue on the river in the flats
February 13, 20214 yr It would be great to remove all the pavement and at least turn it into a grass field for public use until The City decides what is to become of this land
February 13, 20214 yr 49 minutes ago, Cleburger said: We have a 5,000 seat venue on the river in the flats I know I’m just thinking that if they build something like what they built in Chicago a few years ago, might as well use it? That with accessible grass parkland around it would be nice for time being. Also can the rock n roll city have too many venues? Idk
February 14, 20214 yr 16 minutes ago, dave2017 said: It would be great to remove all the pavement and at least turn it into a grass field for public use until The City decides what is to become of this land If you make it into anything even remotely resembling a park then people will scream bloody murder when it gets developed, no matter how little used it is.
February 15, 20214 yr The North Coast Harbor Pedestrian Bridge construction image is showing just how bulky and uninspiring it's design is.
February 15, 20214 yr The bridge kind of defeats the purpose of creating a harbor. The enclosed walkway to the Mather is rather unsightly. I'm not really a big fan of the Mather being docked there and taking up all that space - over 600 feet. I'd rather see the Cod in that location. Edited February 15, 20214 yr by skiwest
February 16, 20214 yr I found the engineering plans for The North Coast Harbor Pedestrian Bridge's final design from 2019 https://movablebridgeresource.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/80966_plans_Part1.pdf https://movablebridgeresource.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/80966_plans_Part2.pdf https://movablebridgeresource.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/80966_plans_Part3.pdf and what everyone really wanted back in 2014 ftp://ftp.dot.state.oh.us/pub/Districts/D12/Production/Consultant_Programmatic/80966/Stage 3 Resubmittal - Plan Set.pdf Edited February 16, 20214 yr by dave2017
February 16, 20214 yr Always thought this bridge idea was a total waste. Another brilliant sleepy Frank vision.
February 16, 20214 yr I wonder how often it will be stuck in the "up" position while they are waiting for a part?
February 16, 20214 yr On 2/12/2021 at 4:01 PM, gruver said: On 2/12/2021 at 3:54 PM, NorthShore647 said: The Main Avenue Bridges future will have to be addressed soon though as it is structurally deficient. Oh, no. Really? I was hoping that big refurbishment 20 years or so ago would have given it another 30 years. It's a beautiful span I just double checked and as of August it’s not currently considered structurally deficient; although the superstructure is one rating above what would be. However it’s never too early to think about the future :)
February 16, 20214 yr On 2/13/2021 at 7:01 PM, X said: If you make it into anything even remotely resembling a park then people will scream bloody murder when it gets developed, no matter how little used it is. Terdolph Park North
February 16, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, GISguy said: Terdolph Park North The city of Cleveland should look to replace the Main Ave bridge with a Blvd. that runs parallel to the railroad tracks. Rather than a bridge over the Cuyahoga River, there could be a tunnel. Elon Musk has proposed a tunnel in Miami to the port of Miami. The original estimate was $1B. Elon stated that he could build the tunnel for $30M (South Florida Business Journal, Feb 15, 2021) . The city of Fort Lauderdale is looking to build a railroad tunnel under the New River. The bridge blocks too much yacht traffic. The city of Cleveland should look at a tunnel for the railroad as well. It would be great to open up the Cuyahoga River.
February 16, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, TR said: The city of Cleveland should look to replace the Main Ave bridge with a Blvd. that runs parallel to the railroad tracks. Rather than a bridge over the Cuyahoga River, there could be a tunnel. Elon Musk has proposed a tunnel in Miami to the port of Miami. The original estimate was $1B. Elon stated that he could build the tunnel for $30M (South Florida Business Journal, Feb 15, 2021) . The city of Fort Lauderdale is looking to build a railroad tunnel under the New River. The bridge blocks too much yacht traffic. The city of Cleveland should look at a tunnel for the railroad as well. It would be great to open up the Cuyahoga River. Pro tip: don't believe anything Elon Musk says. Even in the areas where he actually excels everything is staggeringly overstated. And he is perfectly willing to publicly comment on all kinds of projects that he has no clue about. Such as boring tunnels. (And high speed, and public transit, etc.) When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 16, 20214 yr And depending how far east the tunnel goes, it would elimate the need for a land bridge.
February 16, 20214 yr 1 minute ago, skiwest said: And depending how far east the tunnel goes, it would elimate the need for a land bridge. Tunneling is brutally expensive and time-consuming in the USA, especially under a navigable waterway. The less tunneling, the better. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 17, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Pro tip: don't believe anything Elon Musk says. Even in the areas where he actually excels everything is staggeringly overstated. And he is perfectly willing to publicly comment on all kinds of projects that he has no clue about. Such as boring tunnels. (And high speed, and public transit, etc.) Another pro tip: Elon Musk likes to sign onto things that already exist: http://www.portofmiamitunnel.com Let's face it anyway--tunnels are expensive and only get built in cities in Europe, Asia, and Australia where they don't spend 1 Trillion on a defense industry.
February 17, 20214 yr 14 hours ago, KJP said: Tunneling is brutally expensive and time-consuming in the USA, especially under a navigable waterway. The less tunneling, the better. I'm sure it is. But it's nice to dream. 😴
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