:? Does Cleveland, Akron, or Youngstown have any Streetcar plans simular to what Cincinatti or Columbus has?

Nope. There has been some brainstorming about a streetcar line in downtown Cleveland, but nothing serious yet. The group doing the brainstorming is Lake Shore Electric Railway http://www.lsery.org/ but they haven't updated their website since August of 2006. I don't know if that means they haven't done anything since or not.

Construction of streetcar tracks and catenary and acquisition of streetcars are terribly, terribly expensive, and can only be justified where there's potential for high ridership or as a magnet for lots of tourists with money to spend. Those cities are all struggling to meet current infrastructure needs, and Akron and Youngstown aren't exactly major tourist destinations. A lot of other things need to happen before streetcars can be considered as positive contributors to local prosperity

The Euclid Corridor could be considered a form of a street car in it's goal to become a new form of mass transit in the city if that's what you're talking about.

The Euclid Corridor could be considered a form of a street car in it's goal to become a new form of mass transit in the city if that's what you're talking about.

 

Euclid Corridor: Not as cute, but much more effective.

 

When I lived in Memphis, they had added a trolley line. What a waste. They never go above 20mph. You have to wait at traffic lights, they clog up the road. I'm all for rail, but I think that street cars are a negative for a city. They amount to an unwise expenditure that years for the days of yesteryear.

Not always, Rob. See Kenosha, Galveston, Tucson, Little Rock and Tacoma, among others....

________________

 

The City of Kenosha operates five heritage streetcars on a 1.7-mile system connecting the waterfront of Lake Michigan, the downtown, and the Metra commuter rail station.  The system opened in 2000 as a redevelopment tool, tourist attraction and an additional transit option at a cost of $5.2 million.  It brought in about $150 million in development. The city seeks to expand the system another 3.4 miles at an estimated cost of $16 million.

 

The $20-million line in Little Rock, Ark., attracted about $200 million in development.

 

EDIT: 3231, Memphis isn't a good example of what a streetcar can do for a city. I would encourage you to learn more about what they vs. what their mission is, and it's not to serve as a regional transportation resource as it was 50+ years ago.

The Euclid Corridor could be considered a form of a street car in it's goal to become a new form of mass transit in the city if that's what you're talking about.

 

Euclid Corridor: Not as cute, but much more effective.

 

When I lived in Memphis, they had added a trolley line. What a waste. They never go above 20mph. You have to wait at traffic lights, they clog up the road. I'm all for rail, but I think that street cars are a negative for a city. They amount to an unwise expenditure that years for the days of yesteryear.

 

Those memphis lines are horrible.  Don't get me started.  I think its a tourist ploy not for real "everyday" transportation uses.

 

Add New Orleans to the list of ridiculous Street car lines, although until the hurricane their line was one of or the oldest in the country, so I understood why that particular line was allowed to remain.

 

Both lines reminded me of the orange Shaker Rapids - no Air Conditioning or windows that don't open. 

 

Not always, Rob. See Kenosha, Galveston, Tucson, Little Rock and Tacoma, among others....

 

Ken, I completely agree with you on that. As part of a broader development approach in an area that has good planning and unexploited potential, a streetcar or light rail system can be a powerful, cost-effective investment (Add Portland, Oregon to your list). I just think that Akron and especially Youngstown have a ways to go before they're ready to contemplate that step. Youngstown has some eminent attractions (Butler Museum, and the Historical Center of Labor and Industry in an impressive Michael Graves building) but overall doesn't yet seem focused enough. Maybe Akron has changed, but when I used to visit a friend there, it always seemed to be in Cleveland's shadow, short on local amenities and attractions because people made the short drive to Cleveland for those things.

 

Maybe the solution for Akron is to electrify the Cuyhoga Valley line and push for its extension to Cleveland's waterfront, and then serve it with those magnificent vintage interurban cars from the Lake Shore Electric Railway collection. ( :wink: )

 

BTW, some interesting stuff in the latest Midwest High Speed Rail newsletter.

I didn't even know the Midwest HSR newsletter was out yet! I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

Add New Orleans to the list of ridiculous Street car lines, although until the hurricane their line was one of or the oldest in the country, so I understood why that particular line was allowed to remain.

 

I haven't been in New Orleans since 1991, but on that visit I played hooky from seminars on the last day of my visit and took a streetcar ride on the St. Charles line. It appeared to be a well-used, utilitarian line; during morning rush hour I could see a car ahead of and a car behind the one I was riding, and two on the opposing track. The car wasn't standing-room-only, but it was fairly well filled with local people boarding inbound and heading downtown to work. The old Perley-Thomas cars aren't fast, maybe 10-15mph, but they're big and hold a lot of people and move quietly and smoothly down the broad grassy median with little disruption to the surrounding residential areas.

 

A streetcar may not be as fast as a private auto, but if you consider the time needed to find a parking spot that may not be as close to your destination as the streetcar stop is, and the cost of parking, a lot of times the comparison comes out in favor of the streetcar.

Just to show that at one time .... waaaaay back in the day.... Akron, Canton, Cleveland & Youngstown not only had streetcars, but a lot of them.

 

Photos courtesy of Dave's railpix website:  http://www.davesrailpix.com/odds/oh/htm/yso02.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Ken, I completely agree with you on that. As part of a broader development approach in an area that has good planning and unexploited potential, a streetcar or light rail system can be a powerful,  investment (Add Portland, Oregon to your list). I just think that Akron and especially Youngstown have a ways to go before they're ready to contemplate that step. Youngstown has some eminent attractions (Butler Museum, and the Historical Center of Labor and Industry in an impressive Michael Graves building) but overall doesn't yet seem focused enough. Maybe Akron has changed, but when I used to visit a friend there, it always seemed to be in Cleveland's shadow, short on local amenities and attractions because people made the short drive to Cleveland for those things.

 

I cant speak for Youngstown, but although Akron is no Disneyland, it has managed to attract it's share of tourism and visitors. In Akron's hay day and over the years, events like The World Series of Professional Golf, The Pro Bowlers Tournament of Champions, Alcoholic Anonymous Conventions, The All American Soap Box Derby, The National Inventors' Hall of Fame, Chuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area, Stan Hewett Mansion, The Internationally Televised Cathedral of Tomorrow, Summit Lake Amusement Park, proximity to The Pro Football Hall of Fame and now, The Labron James Marathon, Three on Three and Bicycle Race have all been a huge attraction for visitors. Not to mention; The major business conventions lured here by The World Headquarters of Goodyear, Firestone, General Tire and countless other smaller Rubber and Autoparts companies with headquarters in the area. The Akron Art Museum, Akron Symphony, E.J. Thomas Performing Arts Hall, The Civic Theater, The Carousel Dinner Theater, The Blossom Music Center and The Goodyear Air Dock (Largest building in the world without interior supports) have all been attractions. Akron once had a bustling downtown with an extensive street car system. You would be amazed at some older downtown photos. Wish I had some to share.

 

Akron is home to Roadway Express and boasts many large Trucking Terminals, Railroad, Freight Airports, a National Airport, as well as proximity to an International Airport and shipping docks in Cleveland. Akron has Major Interstate Highways 76 and 77 plus Rt. 8 with proximity and easy access to most of the big cities in the entire eastern and midwestern portion of the country. The University of Akron is booming and don't forget about Kent State and Three World Class Hospitals which are now intering into co-op agreements with Cleveland World Class Hospitals for joint ventures in and around Akron. Goodyear, all three hospitals, First Energy and Sterling Jewelers are all making huge investments in Akron, right now. Akron is working on a Bridgestone Project, as well. Combined, you have a few billion dollars in investment, just from those intities, alone.

 

For these reasons, I believe that Akron is a viable city to invest into, in any manner, including for the purpose of increasing tourism. Out of all of the cities in Ohio, many economists say Akron is the city best positioned for economic growth. Reference The State of The City in City Discussions.

 

Respectfully, Akron does have attractions and is ready. Bring it on!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just so you know, when someone adopts a CVB-like booster approach and posts a gratuitous list like that, it's usually preaching to the choir on this forum. Most of us are well aware of the amenities you listed, and sure - Akron has a lot of great and wonderful things going for it but that's not the context of this thread.

 

The question is "could a streetcar system be viable in Akron again?". Combined with the existing city population and overall land-use patterns, does the amount of tourism Akron generates justify developing a streetcar system that could take you from Carousel to downtown to Blossom? Can you think of a route where a streetcar might be a good investment and not just a riderless boondoggle? Maybe back in the day, but now? I'm not so sure. I'd be interested to hear suggestions.

Just so you know, when someone adopts a CVB-like booster approach and posts a gratuitous list like that, it's usually preaching to the choir on this forum. Most of us are well aware of the amenities you listed, and sure - Akron has a lot of great and wonderful things going for it but that's not the context of this thread.

 

The question is "could a streetcar system be viable in Akron again?". Combined with the existing city population and overall land-use patterns, does the amount of tourism Akron generates justify developing a streetcar system that could take you from Carousel to downtown to Blossom? Can you think of a route where a streetcar might be a good investment and not just a riderless boondoggle? Maybe back in the day, but now? I'm not so sure. I'd be interested to hear suggestions.

 

I was responding to the person who implied that Akron has few or attractions and is not ready for a large scale investment of this or any kind. This person never gave any detailed and valid reasons why streetcars, in particular, would be a bad investment. There was a general comment that Youngstown was unfocused and neither Akron or Youngstown have attractions that make them worthy of consideration for such projects.

 

As to rather I think a streetcare investment would be smart? No, I don't. I do think it would be smart to invest in some type of rail system that would run, at-least from Downtown Akron to Downtown Cleveland. It would be beneficial to both cities and the region for many obvious reasons: The Increase in Commuting, The access to more people for downtown attractions in both cities, The potential reduction in Commute times for passengers and congestion on the highways, Safer commute during bad weather and better attendance for employers during bad weather. It would be a positive marketing tool for tourism for the region, which offers more to see and do than each individual metropolitan area does. Not to mention the more intangible benefits like the positive motivation for our area. Kick in a few decent paying jobs and the development along the route and it's not a bad idea to look at. Depending on the results of a study to pick the most productive route, I would think that some or most of that tracks are already available.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, commuter rail has bubbled up a couple of times in recent years on an Akron-Cleveland route.  KJP (one of our more knowledgeable posters) can fill you in on the details.

 

As for streetcars, I think the trick to making it work is to finding the best way it can connect the dots within the downtown and near-downtown area. The next step is to plan a system that integrates with what's already there (Akron Metro, bikeways, etc) and then with what could be planned for the future (commuter rail, light rail, etc). 

 

I worked in Akron briefly back in the late 90's and it struck me as a place where there were plenty of "dots" to be connected.... downtown hotels & businesses, the Akron Aero's stadium, University of Akron....

 

 

Construction of streetcar tracks and catenary and acquisition of streetcars are terribly, terribly expensive...

 

They're not that expensive. Especially not compared to what ODOT spends on highway construction and maintenance.

If street cars were utilized in Akron and I'm not sure the expenditure would be well placed, I think that using the system to connect various University of Akron points with Inventure Place, The Three Hospitals, Main St., The Main Library and the new Metro Hub, as well as the new Goodyear Development Area might be beneficial.

 

I, personally, think this could be less expensively done with a Trolley System. Metro already owns some trolleys and a couple more wouldn't be too expensive, if needed. There would be some tourist attraction, the routes would be short, useful, downtown routes, for the most part and would save money for more economically beneficial projects for Akron. I would rather see that kind of expenditure go into decreasing Metro Passenger Wait Times and expanding Metro Bus Service into a 24 hour service. These ideas would have a much bigger economic impact, I think. Unless we could somehow make the Cleveland-Akron High Speed work. All combined would be worth a tax hike, in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those fake "trolleys" just don't draw flies.  They tried them here in Columbus as so-called circulators and failed miserably.  I think most of the reason is that they looked like a bad attempt at throwing an old-fashioned-looking trolley body on rubber tires.  People saw through it and just didn't buy the idea. I suspect the same has been true in Toledo and Cleveland where the same type of fake trolleys have been tried.

 

Streetcars, on the other hand, literally represent an in-the-ground investment and (in doing so) represent something that is long-term.  But more than that, modern streetcars running on actual rails in the street tell the public this is actual public transportation and not just something to attract tourists.

 

But I absolutely agree with you that Akron has the "dots" to connect. 

 

Keep a close eye on how Columbus and Cincinnati are handling the funding mechanism for their streetcar plans.  I suspect we will see news on that soon and that will be a good cue for cities like Akron to get their plans underway.

"I suspect the same has been true in Toledo and Cleveland where the same type of fake trolleys have been tried."

 

Actually, the RTA folks here have stated that the Cleveland trolleys have been rather successful. Mind you, they're free to ride...

Fake Trollies do suck! I will keep watching as you suggested.

nevermind. I changed what's left of my mind about what I was going to post.

 

I should go to bed now. :roll:

My initial reactions when reading this thread were that Akron is so spread out it would be pointless to attempt to re-establish a streetcar system mainly because I know I wouldn't use it.  But thinking about the concept of a streetcar a little more it does seem like a streetcar system could be established without it being redundant to the bus system. 

  To me the primary factors for choosing a streetcar path is guaranteed passenger volume and/or building for future growth or to spur new growth.  The UA is looking at having constant bus service from Quaker Square to the Business and Law School colleges.  I think they also have some service on the periphery of UA.  Since there's been so much expenditure of money on the new UA footprint and closing roads I think it could be possible to make streetcars a part of the permanent grid to connect it even better to downtown Akron.  Perhaps better connecting UA to the Akron General campus, Akron City and Children's hospitals for their Nursing program.

    The other idea that came to me was running a streetcar up and down E. Market St. from downtown to the new Goodyear World Headquarters.  Tie that in to the UA and the hospitals, then you've got a sweet little system. 

  I know its been contemplated in the past linking UA to Kent St. via rail.  The bulk of that line still exists and this could be better tied into as part of a Neoucom thing. 

  Future lines could be running Howard street up to Cuyahoga Falls which would complete the Hospital system connections by adding the Summa Hospitals of St Thomas and Falls General and perhaps a line going down Main St. to the hopefully new Firestone tech complex and maybe the Portage Lakes.

 

  The easiest way to figure out which lines to build would be to look at the best performing streetcar lines before they were ripped up.  Akron  neighborhoods haven't really changed much in 70 years or so except of course the ones that were obliterated for highways or the innerbelt.

My initial reactions when reading this thread were that Akron is so spread out it would be pointless to attempt to re-establish a streetcar system mainly because I know I wouldn't use it.  But thinking about the concept of a streetcar a little more it does seem like a streetcar system could be established without it being redundant to the bus system. 

   To me the primary factors for choosing a streetcar path is guaranteed passenger volume and/or building for future growth or to spur new growth.  The UA is looking at having constant bus service from Quaker Square to the Business and Law School colleges.  I think they also have some service on the periphery of UA.  Since there's been so much expenditure of money on the new UA footprint and closing roads I think it could be possible to make streetcars a part of the permanent grid to connect it even better to downtown Akron.  Perhaps better connecting UA to the Akron General campus, Akron City and Children's hospitals for their Nursing program.

     The other idea that came to me was running a streetcar up and down E. Market St. from downtown to the new Goodyear World Headquarters.  Tie that in to the UA and the hospitals, then you've got a sweet little system. 

  I know its been contemplated in the past linking UA to Kent St. via rail.  The bulk of that line still exists and this could be better tied into as part of a Neoucom thing. 

  Future lines could be running Howard street up to Cuyahoga Falls which would complete the Hospital system connections by adding the Summa Hospitals of St Thomas and Falls General and perhaps a line going down Main St. to the hopefully new Firestone tech complex and maybe the Portage Lakes.

 

  The easiest way to figure out which lines to build would be to look at the best performing streetcar lines before they were ripped up.  Akron  neighborhoods haven't really changed much in 70 years or so except of course the ones that were obliterated for highways or the innerbelt.

 

I think your ideas are somewhat plausible but extremely ambitious. At this time, I don't think a study would show enough guaranteed ridership to the south. I think ridership would be better to the north, up Howard St. into Cuyahoga Falls to Goo Industries and would spark extreme development up Howard St. and State Road. I think connecting The Goodyear Development on down East Market St. to City Hospital on down to Akron U and with connections to the new stadium and key points within the campus, on down to Quaker Square, Inventure Place and Downtown, in general could work. Then I think you have to go to The new Metro Hub. That only makes since. Another link from The Downtown Akron Metro Hub out to Montrose and even into Medina sounds interesting, as well. Connecting Medina with Montrose and Downtown Akron has to be a good idea. I would consider Exchange St. up to West Market (Rt. 18), to tie Children's and Akron General in with the system. Then down Rt. 18 through Fairlawn, into Montrose and possibly into Medina.

 

The result would be easy access between the hospitals, Goodyear and Akron U. Also, high income consumers from Copley, Bath, Fairlawn and Medina would have easy access to The Hospitals, Akron U and Downtown Akron events, not to mention the new AU Football Stadium, etc.

 

Once again, this would be extremely ambitious. I think a more short term and economically feasible idea would simply be to connect The Goodyear Development to City Hospital, to Akron U., to The Metro Hub and maybe Children's and Akron General Hospitals.

 

Before any of this is done, I believe that the biggest priority should be for Metro and the city to work toward reducing passenger wait times and expand to 24 hour service. I believe these suggestions would have the biggest and most immediate economic impact. Ridership would increase due to convenience and it would be a selling point when attracting new investment. It would create jobs and boost productivity for companies who currently do or are considering 2nd and 3rd shifts. It would offer another option to Drunk Drivers and it would decrease commute times for passengers, which will increase their quality of life. Once these goals are accomplished, I think we could, at that time, look at some less ambitious Street Car Plans with the option to expand, later. I think that riders would pay an additional 50 to 75 cents fare to enjoy 15 to 20 minute service and certain routes with 24 hour service. General Fares are now $1.00 in Akron. In Cleveland, they are $1.75. Akron Passenger wait times are minimum 30 minutes to 1 hour and even 1 hour and 15 minutes. This is not good for the economy. I don't think anyone even realizes how detrimental it actually is.

 

What are your thoughts on that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no thoughts about the economics.  Obviously you want it priced right to provide incentives.  I'm not sure how or why streetcars would significantly reduce wait times vs. buses. 

  As far as ambitiousness, Akron has shown that its able to tie in various institutions to work together for the common good better than all the other cities in Ohio.  If ODOT is changing its stripes and is seeing streetcars as a serious option for downtowns throughout Ohio, I can see with cooperation from the University, city, county, Metro, Goodyear, and obviously ODoT something could be running in 4-5 years especially if the Metro tax levy is passed even if a testbed.

  I don't see the point of a streetcar going all the way out to Medina, perhaps to Summit Mall.  There's also track that goes from downtown Akron to Medina, the same track that goes on to Kent.  I have no idea of the ownership of the track or its current usage.  This would seem to be able to relieve a lot of emissions since it occurs to me route 18 is a significant contributor as clearly seen on a hazy day over Montrose..

  UA is very aggressive.  The next big phase after the stadium is Spicer village which is another half billion dollar project by some estimations.  What better way to tie that in with the overall expanded campus than with the permanency of streetcars.

Keep in mind that streetcars operate best over shorter distances.  The temptation is to apply streetcars to routes that are too long and better suited for either light rail or commuter rail (such as Akron to Medina).  The longer the route, the longer the headways between streetcars and they begin to lose their utility and their advantage over other modes.

 

In Akron's case, it might be better to start with a one or two route starter system that creates connections over a defined area.  Such a system can always be added to or integrated with other systems (buses, light rail...).  Check out the threads for the proposed Columbus and Cincinnati downtown streetcars and you'll see many of these same issues are being addressed.

I have no thoughts about the economics.  Obviously you want it priced right to provide incentives.   I'm not sure how or why streetcars would significantly reduce wait times vs. buses. 

 

I wasn't saying that streetcars would somehow reduce Passenger Wait Times. I was saying that before Akron invests in streetcars, I think they should invest in reducing wait times for passengers who ride Metro Buses. I feel that this is a higher priority and could be a more immediate success story with huge benefits. The increase in ridership and other benefits that occur because of reduced wait times would be a big selling point on the benefits of mass transit, thereby helping to sell the idea of streetcars and rail.

 

 

Keep in mind that streetcars operate best over shorter distances.  The temptation is to apply streetcars to routes that are too long and better suited for either light rail or commuter rail (such as Akron to Medina).  The longer the route, the longer the headways between streetcars and they begin to lose their utility and their advantage over other modes.

 

In Akron's case, it might be better to start with a one or two route starter system that creates connections over a defined area.  Such a system can always be added to or integrated with other systems (buses, light rail...).  Check out the threads for the proposed Columbus and Cincinnati downtown streetcars and you'll see many of these same issues are being addressed.

 

I agree. After improving The Metro Bus Service, I think a streetcar route from Goodyear Through Summa, Akron U, Downtown to The Metro Hub and then down Exchange Street, to tie in Children's and General Hospitals would be a short and achievable start.

 

The Montrose and Medina "Pie in The Sky Ideas" would be later stage accomplishments and I was thinking more in terms of High Speed Rail Service. Medina is going to soon be a significantly populated area and with The new water park and other planned attractions, could make rail service very viable as Downtown Akron grows, as well.

 

I really salivate at the idea of High Speed from Akron to Cleveland. Now that is a really sexy idea!!

I high speed from akron to cleveland would be great. this past friday I drove 77 and it took 35 minutes.. If I could get there in 10 that would be slick.!!.

I really salivate at the idea of High Speed from Akron to Cleveland. Now that is a really sexy idea!!

 

I high speed from akron to cleveland would be great. this past friday I drove 77 and it took 35 minutes.. If I could get there in 10 that would be slick.!!.

 

I don't think high-speed rail is the terminology for what's needed; that's high-dollar, high-tech equipment on a dedicated, grade-separated right of way, operating at speeds in the 125-150 mph range and above. For the distance involved, it would be severe overkill.

 

Given suitable roadbed configuration and maintenance and appropriate crossing protection and signaling upgrades, existing commuter equipment can achieve speeds in the range of 80-90 mph on existing tracks. I'm sure many people, once they tried it, would be persuaded to park their cars.

 

It's not necessarily the sheer speed or travel time that sells the service. Comfort and convenience and the ability to read or work or even <i>enjoy</i> a cup of good coffee while traveling are big selling points, and rising gasoline prices are likely to have more people looking for attractive alternatives to driving.

80-90 miles per hour between Akron and Cleveland with a comfortable work or sleep environment would not only be good for commuters but for Cleveland and Akron's economies, in my opinion.

if it took only 10-15 minutes to get to downtown Cleveland I'd be there alot. That sure would help the economics of DTCleve plus if Akron could build an enterainment complex different to Cleveland in retail and attractions Akron would benefit.

Commuter Rail with stops in DT Cleveland(at Tower City/RTA Hub), DT Akron (at or near the New Metro Hub), Akron-Canton Airport and DT Canton(SARTA Hub)  would be ideal imo.

 

As mentioned before, a streetcar line that connects the Hospitals and University in Akron would  be ideal, beyond that I see no reason for anything more elaborate, just more frequent routes.

Here's a cool link on Cleveland's old streetcar system from a PBS interview:

 

http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/pdf/410_electric_car.pdf