has anyone heard of plans to connect phase 5 to the top of the viaduct with a staircase?  I remember hearing about this a while ago, but dont recall where.  the design and implementation could certainly be a creative piece of functional public art that would enable ped movement between the flats and the viaduct.

 

any thoughts?

Actually, I was going to ask, what is progress like on this project?  About a month ago, it appeared as though they were drilling caissons for footings, but no one has reported on this project since.  I have not been down there in a while. 

From what I can see from the Shoreway, they're still doing site prep (drilling), although I'm pretty sure I saw a new piece of equipment down there (as in possibly a crane?).

This project is moving forward quite quickly.  Here's a bet that there will be people living in Stonebridge phase 5 before anyone is in the Pinnacle.

hmmm...tough bet to take.

 

It's really amazing how much progress this entire (5 phase) project has made, while other projects either remain on the drawing boards or stuck in financing, legal or interminable construction phases.  And as the only Downtown condo project of significant size to open in the past couple years, they seem to have captured a lot of market demand that has driven the project even further.

 

During a lecture last night from Steve Strnisha (founder of Strnisha Development Advisors, a public/private real estate consulting firm), we determined that site work on the Flats East Bank could begin as early as next year, but that we really won't be seeing any openings until 2009-10.  This seems like forever, but the project is so much more complicated and involves a complex web of financing. 

 

I'd be interested to hear from the Stonebridge developers how they did this on their own...and how they were able to quickly navigate the maze of financing and get these things built!  It's not like they were building out on greenfields in the 'burbs.  This is still the Flats and there had to be some really difficult stuff to get through.  I guess it's possible that Stonebridge took just as long from inception to completion, but that it all came in under the radar...

I remember seeing some renderings of Stonebridge about 5-6 years ago, and at the time I thought it was a pretty aggressive project, given the amount of construction involved. I remember reading that some officials thought it might never get built. Here it is 5-6 years later, and just about everything in the rendering has been built (I seem to remember that they also proposed building south of the Detroit-Superior Bridge, along the river's west bank). But I also don't think the building now under construction next to the former Cantina Del Rio was envisioned originally. Give some, take some.

 

The next few years will pass quickly with Wolstein's Flats East Bank project.

I know...that's one of the things I've discovered since moving back here.  Time CRAWLS when you're looking for updates (pre-Urban Ohio!) from afar.  Being back home, I see the progress in the finer details.  Time will fly and signs of progress in site prep and the like will be exciting enough for 2006! 

 

Again, the sheer number of projects kicking off in the final quarter of this year and then in 2006 is so exciting!

There may be more coming with Stonebridge. I sat next to Bob Corna at an event recently and he mentioned that his intention is to build out the West Bank. But he said he wants to create a better link to the stores, theaters and restaurants that Wolstein will be building on the East Bank. There was RTA's plan to build a cable car within the superstructure of the Main Avenue bridge. But Corna is now thinking about building elevator shafts on both sides of the river, below the Main Avenue bridge, and linking them with a 200-yard pedestrian walkway built as a lower deck of that bridge. And, of course, he remains interested in a streetcar on the lower level of the Detroit-Superior bridge.

It is good to see that the companies associated with the Flat's seem to be working together. I would imagine that they would have to build quite a few more buildings before they would do anything with the Main Avenue Bridge. Although, if they add 1 building a year there could be a decent sized population on the West Bank by 2009-10.

Corna says they already have 1,000 residents in their existing buildings and hope to have many more than that at full build out. Even so, it's not a bad walk from the parts of Stonebridge that are built (or under construction) to the Main Avenue bridge. And, by the time Wolstein is finished with his development, who knows what buildings might be added to Stonebridge.

Does the water taxi still run?  I would think that would be way more efficient than a huge elevator structure.  I can't imagine something like that done for a reasonable amount of money.

 

Or what about a gondola from the end of the Superior Viaduct to a point on the East Bank?  Now that's some good public transit!

^I would favor a giant catapult.  Let's be innovative and create a unique experience!  ;)

Movement within the flats will be dictated  ( like everything in Cleveland) by the weather.  Walking from any part of stonebridge to the Main Ave bridge is easy in good weather...a chore in lousy weather.  Water taxi...great in summer, etc.  But regarding the water taxi, maybe flats residents can buy an annual pass or something.  I could imagine that it would become a routine way of getting about after a while. 

 

Does the water taxi still run?  I would think that would be way more efficient than a huge elevator structure.  I can't imagine something like that done for a reasonable amount of money.

 

Or what about a gondola from the end of the Superior Viaduct to a point on the East Bank?  Now that's some good public transit!

 

In summer month's it does

Maybe in winter they could run a smowmobile bus across the river.

When was the last time the river froze north of the steel mills? Is it capable of freezing?  :-o

The river does freeze over every year for at least 2-3 weeks during the coldest parts of January and February; however, the layer of ice is thin enough that as soon as any barge or freight boat goes through it cracks right through it.

 

This was one of my favorite things to see from our condo at Riverbend.  Lots of ice on the river, seagulls sitting on the ice or on pieces of wood stuck in the ice and then **crash**boom** in comes a barge cracking through everything and crazy go the seagulls.

 

My guess is that if the lake froze enough that freight and barges stop coming through, we would see the river freeze over for a longer time (5-6 weeks).  I don't recall the exact details, but I did read somewhere that for the river's initial freeze-over we need to have at least 7-9 straight days of 30 degree or lower temperatures.  Subsequent freeze-overs can then occur much quicker based on expected colder temperatures.

 

Like I said, watching the river freeze is to me one of the coolest things ever.  I know most people hate winter, but I think it can be fun.

 

I agree...winter can be fun to WATCH...but walking through it?  not so much fun! 

 

This conversation about getting across the river is such an interesting one.  We've got our high-level expanses covered, but when it comes to Flats level in the residential part, there's really only one bridge that fits the bill.  That's the Center Street Swing Bridge and it's got the south end covered.  As much as I love the walk from the lower level of Stonebridge, across the CSSB, along the river, to Settler's Landing and on to Old River Road and up to the WHD, it's not the most practical option for everyday (or winter) foot traffic.  It's a nice stroll...

 

Now, another, northern pedestrian bridge would be great, but how do we do it?  The elevator up and cable car options seem a bit too complicated.  The water taxi should prove viable, but shouldn't be the only option.  What about another, much smaller, swing bridge?  Or a bridge that enxtends out over the river like a fireman's ladder?  I'm no engineer, but I don't think we need to be building something that goes up into the structure of the Main Ave. Bridge.

 

I think that these questions will be answered as the development starts to pile up.  Wolstein's already asking for over $80 million in public investment in infrastructure and other odds and ends, so it'll likely come as an attachment to a project on the West Bank.  That, or once the residential population is strong enough down there to put significant pressure on City Hall and ODOT.

Lets start thinking of tunneling.  With the right of way of slow moving barges through the Cuyahoga, it wold be very difficult to take people over the river.  Escelator down, walk under the river, then escalater up the other side.  With the relatively shallow waters of the Cuyahoga, this would not be a difficult bore to perform. 

The river is required to have a depth of at least 24 feet, and my guess is you'd have to go down at least another 10 feet below that. I don't know about you, but walking the length of two football fields through a tunnel, even if wide and bright, doesn't sound to safe to me. I can only imagine how scary it might seem to a woman walking alone.

 

MGD's idea of a pedestrian swing bridge or lift bridge is worth considering.

I would think that a pedestrian lift bridge wouldn't be too awfully expensive, relative to the amount of development that we could see down there, and that would be spurred on by the new connection. 

 

Didn't there used to be a low level bridge at Main?  That would seem to be a good location.  It is pretty central to the center of gravity of the East and West Banks.

 

It may even be worth it to make it a full auto and pedestrian bridge.  But then again, I have no idea what a lift bridge costs.  I can't imagine they are that expensive though.  They are mostly just foundation and framing. (although that could be pricey, huh?)

Well, if we can justify it through a significant amount of development on either side of the river we can probably get a good bit of money from ODOT and the Feds for it.  KJP?  Do ODOT or the Fed tend to fund projects that are pedestrian only?  Personally, I don't think we need more vehicular access here and it would most definitely be a more expensive and space consuming project...so, what about just a pedestrian lift or swing bridge?  It could be a mini version of the existing lift bridges (historic throwback) or something modern...

 

what are they doing at North Coast Harbor?  That may be a good benchmark...

^The cable stay pedestrian bridges being built in the metroparks presently are funded in a way through the government.  I guess you could stretch the towpath trail through the flats and make the bridge part of it to get federal funding dollars for it.

heck yeah!  that's what I'm talking about!  excellent idea gotribe!

Interestingly, the Lakefront Plan calls for a new bridge (looks pedestrian, but I am not sure) about 100 yards east of the Center St. Bridge.  Seems a little close, imo.

indeed it does!  and another one on the north end of the West Bank that would provide access to Whiskey Island.  Funny, though, that there's nothing closer to the Wolstein project.  His project is on the map, so it is interesting that they would put one just east of the CSSB and not closer to this hub...

If the East Bank is successful and Stonebridge keeps on growing, it will be such a boon to to each side to have some sort of crossing near the Main Ave bridge. 

Federal funding is available for pedestrian projects such as this. It's called Enhancement funding through the Surface Transportation Program. Those funds are distributed to NOACA for it to decide how to use, however Congress may earmark those funds for particular projects, in effect telling the MPO how to use them. I won't get into the debate about earmarks vs. letting MPOs do their jobs. But, those are the options. And, a bridge of this type could actually be fairly expensive.

 

Compare this bridge to the cable-stayed spans being built in the Cleveland Metroparks in Valley View. Each are about 600 feet long (roughly equivalent to what is needed to span the Cuyahoga in the Flats). The total cost for both is $6.15 million. That may or may not mean that one bridge costs a shade over $3 million. Add an strong enough electric motor (or two, if it is to have two halves, each lowering to meet the other over the middle of the river, for example), with possible property acquisitions or a shelter for an employee (should be bridge be staffed 24 hours a day and at whose expense? The city's? The developers'?) and the cost could double that of the Metroparks' bridges.

 

Who knows, it might be worth it to the developers to pay for a bridge themselves, rather than wait to go through the federal funding process. They might get faster action from NOACA, if they press the right political buttons (anyone remember how fast NOACA approved using federal funds for the parking deck at the Science Center?). I suspect the developers have their ways of calculating the cost-benefits of these options.

It seems like this bridge makes more sense than the one they've planned at NorthCoast harbor.  However, I think that with better signage and a lighted pedestraian walkway, that it wouldn't be that bad of a walk over the existing swing bridge.  But, as previously stated, it would be a bit of a hike in the winter.

Ewoops, you're hitting on something I've questioned for years.  The route from the East Bank across RTA's Settler's Landing station, past the Flat Iron Cafe then over the Center Street Swing bridge directly toward the towering/handsome counterpoint of Stonebridge development is one of the most interesting walks in Cleveland.  In particular, the stroll along the interesting, narrow old red-steel bridge and gazing down upon the Cuyahoga and up at the Flats industrial/yuppie mix is one of those mega-neat Cleveland experiences.  It's also quite a convenient route.  Whether coming down the hill from downtown or (as we often do in summer) walking over to Scene Pavilion from the RTA stop, it's a very important and useful path.  Yet, city officials have ignored it totally.  No lighting.  No signage.  Pavers.  Benches.  Nothing.  -- it's a dark back alley-type stroll and even a tad intimidating, late at night, under the arches of the RTA Red Line bridge.

 

While he's constantly grandstanding on regressive, empty proposals, like putting heavy railing on riverside restaurants after the 1999 Flats drownings, or 24-hour parking in the Warehouse Dist, Joe Cimpermann's hasn't lifted a finger for such an inexpensive yet useful program.  Time for a letter/e-mail campaign?

 

How do the pedestrian bridges get out of the way of river traffic? Are they built like the pedestrian bridges over the freeway?

There is a right of way already in place on the east side of the old Main Ave. alignment.  I can't tell from the map what happens on the west side, under the new Main Ave. bridge.  There is also a current ROW from the end of St. Clair to Cathan St., just behind the Powerhouse. 

 

The motor wouldn't be too expensive, I would think, because movable bridges are counterweighted.  I remember seeing the HP ratings on one of the auto verticle lift bridges, and the motor was surprisingly not powerful, although I don't remember the rating right now.

 

The counterweight would cost money, as would any additional moving parts and engineering needed to make the bridge move.  That could be substantial.

 

Staff would be expensive, too, perhaps.  But I would think that there could be some way of automating the bridge.  Perhaps if it could "know" what positions the bridges on either side of it were in, and if there was anyone on the bridge, it could "know" what position it should be in, and if it would be safe for it to move. 

Couldn't the same person that activates the swing bridge also activate this bridge?  I guess, I'm not visualizing where you guys are proposing this new pedestrian bridge be built.  For me, like clvlndr stated, if instead of spending money/resources on a pedestrian only bridge we made the path from Settler's Landing to the swing bridge more amenable everyone would be alot better off.  Maybe this will happen when they finally finish the towpath with whatever park it is they are planning for Settler's Landing.

I'm suggesting that the new bridge be somewhere north of the Superior Viaduct at least, or even better, up near the Main Ave. bridge.  I think that Center Street is too far south to be a viable connection from most of the East Bank to West Bank and back. Most people would prefer to drive that distance.

Here's an aerial of the area (ripe for development!) with a few ideas on it:

 

I don't know if this would be feasible but my solution would be to put one or two elevators on each side of the main ave bridge and let people walk on the existing truss structure then take an elevator down, put in a set of stairs as well...  Seems like it would be easier than anything else...  would certain state and federal agencies let you do that... probably not... inevitably someone would say you have to design a completely new bridge...

 

For the question of who would operate the bridge... well, we do have homeless people... we could give a homeless person a job as well as a home in the form of a  little bridge shack.  But then he'd be a public employee so that pretty much screws everything has to pay into SS and insurance and all that other BS.

I don't think we'd have any trouble finding someone to operate the bridge...who wouldn't want to while their days away sitting in a booth overlooking the Cuyahoga, watching boats and people pass by? 

I don't know if this would be feasible but my solution would be to put one or two elevators on each side of the main ave bridge and let people walk on the existing truss structure then take an elevator down, put in a set of stairs as well...  Seems like it would be easier than anything else...  would certain state and federal agencies let you do that... probably not... inevitably someone would say you have to design a completely new bridge...

 

That was also one of the suggestions by Stonebridge developer Bob Corna. The elevated pedestrian bridge could be supported by the elevator/stairwell towers on either side, with the Main Avenue bridge structure providing some additional stability for it. There should be security for the enclosed spaces of the structure.

 

What would such a structure cost to build, maintain and operate?

 

It would be interesting to see a cost/benefit analysis of the high-level pedestrian crossing versus the pedestrian lift bridge.

I'll assume that most of you haven't read "Oxbow Action" #383, from Flats Oxbow, "The Voice of the Flats!"  Flats Oxbow is one of the strangest CDCs in Cleveland and their newsletter is appropriately odd.  Issue #383 contained several random news pieces, including the posting of an article from January of 1991 that told of an Army Corps of Engineers plan to cut a new channel into the Cuyahoga through the Scranton Peninsula.  The "Scranton Cut" would eliminate the need for barges and freighters to navigate the infamous "Collision Bend" and turn Scranton Peninsula into an island.  The article also mentioned a proposal to re-open the mouth of the Old River Channel at Edgewater Park, making Whiskey Island and island again.  15 years later, neither proposal seems alive...yet Oxbow Action, for some reason that they failed to mention, felt the need to post it!

 

In other news, along the lines of the bridge discussion that we've been having here, there was a "Riverbed Street Update" provided by Randy DeVaul, Commissioner of Construction and Engineering for the City.  DeVaul speaks first of the problems with Riverbed Street and the slope that rises above it that is tied to the engineering analysis for CMHA's Riverview Project.  He then goes on to say that ODOT has "retained Parsons Brinkerhoff to begin the preliminary engineering and environmental studies for the Cuyahoga Valley intermodal Roadway connecting Whiskey Island to West 3rd Street."  I have no idea what this roadway is or how it fits into the Riverbed Street study, but apparently it does somehow...

 

Anyone have any clues out there?

I saw the newsletter and also didn't understand why the old river channel stuff or the river "shortcut" was in there. Maybe they're trying to revive discussion about it without actually saying so?

 

The Cuyahoga Valley Intermodal Roadway is an offshoot of the Inner Belt project, and would build a truck roadway from the southern industrial part of the Flats north to Whiskey Island (and future port island?). Go to:

 

http://www.innerbelt.org/CuyValHome.htm

thanks for that link KJP!

 

this study and the roadway in general appears to be solely for truck traffic issues.  I know these are of high importance because of the number of bridges and roadways used and the neighborhoods they pass through, but I didn't really get the feeling that this was going to produce anything more than a more efficient route for truck traffic.  Are they attempting to tie in the Towpath Trail and non-industrial linkages to Whiskey Island?  The trail and impacts on residential and economic development were mentioned throughout, but I felt that it was just in reference to externalities relating to the roadway, not to accommodating these much-needed features...

The roadway would be built on the former Erie-Lackawanna RR right of way, which is below street level in the West Bank of the Flats. The underpasses are still mostly intact. But my suggestion is to add a track in the pavement of the Cuyahoga Valley Intermodal Roadway to accommodate over-dimensional loads from the port.

 

What all this has to do with Stonebridge I'm not sure!

oh, well I posted it here because it seemed to be a logical sidebar to the discussion on creating new bridges that could connect the east and west banks of the flats.

 

i suppose it could be its own thread!

Just a quick teaser.  There was steel coming out of the hole at Stonebridge. 

Do they therefore have a crane set up on the site now?  I have not been down there lately.

^Not yet - right now it looks like mostly retaining walls and a few structural pieces that sooner mentioned.

regarding getting across the river. I live on the west bank and really enjoy the walk over the swing bridge. The only issue is the poor lighting (most of us who live in the city don't mind the extra walk). Bob Corna discussed improving the route from west to east by increasing the amount of lighting. further he wants to increase  commercial development on the west bank to the lake and whiskey island ...all illuminated by street lamps. Isnt there a train tressel that crosses from east to west? could something be done on that? The water taxi I am sure would be the most cost effective.

"Isnt there a train tressel that crosses from east to west? Could something be done on that? "

 

I came of age during the 1980s, and I don't know if you saw the movie "Stand by Me", but I get a little skittish about the idea :-o

 

Back in the day when the Flats were jumping. people used to walk across the big lift bridge at the mouth of the river.  My wife actually rode the bridge up one night.  (does that sound bad?)

However, I don't see that as a viable option for pedestrian traffic.

^ can you legally do that?  i always wondered if that was a possible solution too.