Can't they phase the abatements out? Like cut it down from 15 years of no taxes to 7 of no taxes and then kill them by 2010?

 

You want to get it so the fire burns on its own, but at some point, people need to start paying their share of the taxes. How is it fair that a person in a new condo get 15 years of no taxes while someone who lives in an older neighborhood doesn't get a break at all?

 

 

OK...IVE BEEN SCREAMING THAT!!  CAN I GET A RETROACTIVE TAX ABATEMENT CREDIT?!!

Yeah, more housing!  Boo, sky bridge (why link a condo tower to offices/ground floor retail, anyway?)

 

I know it's a pipe dream, but I would love it if the easternmost Nautica Parking lot could become a park (per MGD's suggestion in his Parks threat) so that a little bit of the beautiful viaduct itself will remain visible from the west.

Isn't the idea to get people onto the streets to create more activity?  Skybridges are a construction that is the least condusive for such.  Corna, while I am pleased he is doing all these projects, has never been confused as a great designer.  If only there was a firm that could combine the two in this city, I would be pounding on their door as we speak.

Boo, sky bridge (why link a condo tower to offices/ground floor retail, anyway?)

 

I believe it's because there will be several levels of parking under the condo tower.

In actuality, none of the Stonebridge development is very urban friendly thus far.  To me, it is very high-rise suburban.  The real only plus to it is that it provides for sale housing in the city and is a population booster. 

To be fair, I don't think that the first few phases would have been able to support any first floor retail. There wasn't enough density. Going forward, there should be retail on the first floors (and not burried inside a lobby!).

Can't they phase the abatements out? Like cut it down from 15 years of no taxes to 7 of no taxes and then kill them by 2010?

 

You want to get it so the fire burns on its own, but at some point, people need to start paying their share of the taxes. How is it fair that a person in a new condo get 15 years of no taxes while someone who lives in an older neighborhood doesn't get a break at all?

 

 

 

I hear you, jamie.  I don't like abatements either, at least as a permanent sort of thing developers seem to forever hold Cleveland hostage with.  But I sadly understand in a struggling city trying to beef up its core, as Cleveland is, they appear to be a necessary evil.  Consider, even much stronger downtowns, like Philly, offer them, too.

^^^Could the 200 approved by City Council have been a combination of a few different phases?

 

108 - Stonebridge Plaza

68 - Stonebridge Place

30 - Stonebridge Riverfront

206

 

close to 200...

 

I used the numbers in the site plan posted at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9195.90 Current project and the next two in line.

 

No, because the tax abatement for the 200 units was approved by City Council just this past Dec. 10. Corna and Price wouldn't have started construction on Stonebridge Plaza without tax abatement in hand. And Corna said the 200 units would be in one building. My only guess at this point is that Corna and Price have amended their previously announced plan.

 

By the way, I really like their reuse of the former Cantina del Rio and the mix of uses they will have in it. Between the retail/restaurant uses and the office/housing surrounding it, they've pretty well guaranteed that the place skylit building will remain active at all hours. I only hope the businesses stay open at all hours.

"OK...IVE BEEN SCREAMING THAT!!  CAN I GET A RETROACTIVE TAX ABATEMENT CREDIT?!!"

 

Oh quit yer b!tching - I never got the chance to enjoy a Riverfest, Halle Brothers, malts at whatever joint that was, a bustling Euclid Avenue, an upscale Tower City, a meal of chicken mush out of a little cardboard toy oven, blah blah blah. You don't hear me asking for a retroactive vibrant city, do ya?!? ;-)

"OK...IVE BEEN SCREAMING THAT!!  CAN I GET A RETROACTIVE TAX ABATEMENT CREDIT?!!"

 

Oh quit yer b!tching - I never got the chance to enjoy a Riverfest, Halle Brothers, malts at whatever joint that was, a bustling Euclid Avenue, an upscale Tower City, a meal of chicken mush out of a little cardboard toy oven, blah blah blah. You don't hear me asking for a retroactive vibrant city, do ya?!? ;-)

 

NO!  If I can do it, others can too.   :x :x

 

I know its an economic win for current new home buyers and those renovating in certain areas of the city.  But damn!!

And besides, we'd be better off if none of that new housing was built.  Vacant Lots=Great City!

Well, all I'm sayin' is, these new condos are certainly targeted toward affluent folks. What's the incentive for a homeowner in an older house on a more modest income to stay around??

 

I don't think the abatements should be killed immediately like the mayor seems to be indicating. I think they should be reduced and then eliminated  as demand grows. That's why I think abatements should be phased out by 2010. Give the market time to grow hotter, then when it can feed itself...there you go. Meanwhile, cut the abatement from 15 years to 5 or 7 years.

I doubt the market will be that much hotter by 2010, though maybe in certain areas it will be getting there.  Anyway, the point of the abatement isn't to get people to move into or stay in the city, it is to create an incentive for investment in the city's portfolio of housing stock.  A new home does this, a substantially renovated home (also eligible) does this.  Someone just staying put doesn't.

Let me put it this way. I'm not affluent. And if my credit card debt wasn't an issue, I could afford some of the condos downtown that are selling for under $150,000. The reason? Tax abatement.

 

I was seriously considering buying a condo last year at the Pointe at Gateway until I figured my credit card payments into the mix.

 

Downtown is one of the few places in Cleveland I would consider buying a home. The other revitalized or rebounding neighborhoods (Ohio City, Tremonth, Chinatown, University Circle, Little Italy...) are other places I would consider. It is also hard to find quality, for-sale housing in those areas for less than $150,000. I am not looking for a fixer-upper.

 

Without tax abatement, there is no way I could afford to buy a quality home in a desirable Cleveland neighborhood. So I hope others will carefully weigh their thoughts before thinking that only the affluent benefit from tax abatement. I am most definitely at the bottom of a shrinking middle class.

Well, all I'm sayin' is, these new condos are certainly targeted toward affluent folks. What's the incentive for a homeowner in an older house on a more modest income to stay around??

 

Wouldn't the older house benefit from a rising home value, caused by new or renovated units being built nearby?

I don't think that the stuff recently build (except the pinacle), breaking ground/in construction or planned is for the affluent.  Granted, I don't know anyones financial status, but I also don't think many folks are as educated about the home buy process as we are and buying a home the first time is a lot to take in and confusing. 

 

If I knew THEN, what I know NOW about buy a home, I could have gotten an even better deal and been prepared for things like a home inspection BEFORE signing on the dotted line.

 

I also think as more people buy downtown and more conversions take place and the first round of building in the WHD that were done with historic tax credits/federal/city/state are able to convert to condo, there will be a need for more lower priced "basic" units.  IIRC, this will start to happen around 2009 so developers will most likely need to start preparing for basic units and new build rental units.

 

Also, as new buildings come online, people will move around to the "next big thing" and any remaining units in the previously built building(s) will slightly reduce in price.  For example, when Stonebridge Plaza is complete and starts occupancy, you'll be able to find a bargain or have better negotiating leverage at the Pinnacle.

Also, as new buildings come online, people will move around to the "next big thing" and any remaining units in the previously built building(s) will slightly reduce in price.  For example, when Stonebridge Plaza is complete and starts occupancy, you'll be able to find a bargain or have better negotiating leverage at the Pinnacle.

 

Great point.  When Stonebridge Plaza went into construction, prices for the remaining units at Stonebridge Condominiums were reduced, in some cases substantially.

Well, all I'm sayin' is, these new condos are certainly targeted toward affluent folks. What's the incentive for a homeowner in an older house on a more modest income to stay around??

 

Wouldn't the older house benefit from a rising home value, caused by new or renovated units being built nearby?

 

Only if you upgrade! 

 

For example, most new build units have master bedrooms with en suite baths.  That means the current home owner needs to upgrade their master bathroom with not only what is currently en vogue but with an extra.  So a owner in a older home would need to:

not only have a deep soaking tub, it should have a spa treatment. 

Don't just put a stone floor in, make sure you have a floor with radiant heat.

Don't just re-tile your shower floor, install a natural pebble floor

Don't install a towel rack, install a towel warmer

 

Keep in mind, upgrading a bathroom ads value and if you decide to sell, you'll get back 85-90% of your investment.

 

When SouthPark Row was being built, I looked at as many suites as I could to see what amenities the units had, so I could evaluate what I needed to do to "compete" and to make sure that I'm getting the best appraisal.  In addition, "keeping up with the Jones'" drives up market value just as much as a new building going up across the street.  Cause Bree VanDeKempt won't be outdone by Suzy Homemaker.  When I did my master bath, the first thing out my neighbors mouth was, "what are you doing in apartment now??" -- picture Gladys Kravitz trying to get into the Steven's residence.

 

Also, you should have your home appraised once a year, no longer than 18 months.

 

PS...no fee for this consultation  :wink:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16502055/site/newsweek/

 

I thought I'd post this here since it's the most active Stonebridge thread.  Nice publicity for my building if nothing else.  Hope the link works.

unfortunately they didn't include and interior photo.  That would have been a plus, for the article, the homeowner and the development.  If the home owner didn't want to be identified, at least a photo of ONE of the stone bridge buildings would be nice.

I forgot that I owed you all some images. The first two of these were included with the story. The other two are bonuses because we are all urban geeks here and will appreciate having more than one angle shown.

 

I took Stonebridge's plan that was released last fall and used a graphics program to emphasize the next phases shown in that plan...

 

 

 

 

^thanks!

Nice.

Based on the graphic I can now place where the sky walkway is going to be and I think it will work well there.

The elevated walkways are not always evil. It all depends on its placing. I think a well designed bridge in this place could really frame and highlight the downtown view corridor, not take away.

 

also to note that area of washington is a strange incline and w24th is a really steep bumpy side street

The arch on the west side of the next building scares the hell out of me...

WOW!!  Go flats!

The arch on the west side of the next building scares the hell out of me...

 

Why I think it could be a nice architectural detail.

The arch on the west side of the next building scares the hell out of me...

 

Yeah, I like the drama that they're going for on that side, but in those models, it looks just horrible and high-school design project-ish.  I sure hope the finished product looks/works better.

 

 

this may sound like a dumb question, but what is Stonebridge's master website? I can find PURE listings...but not the main site.

The arch on the west side of the next building scares the hell out of me...

 

Yeah, I like the drama that they're going for on that side, but in those models, it looks just horrible and high-school design project-ish.  I sure hope the finished product looks/works better.

 

 

 

It looks like a poorly executed 1st semester, first year design by the first victim of cuts in architecture school.  How do some of these people become designers?

this may sound like a dumb question, but what is Stonebridge's master website? I can find PURE listings...but not the main site.

 

www.stonebridgewaterfront.com  This is the only site I know of, at one point I thought someone here said there is (was) going to be a and updated site.

 

The arch on the west side of the next building scares the hell out of me...

 

Yeah, I like the drama that they're going for on that side, but in those models, it looks just horrible and high-school design project-ish.  I sure hope the finished product looks/works better.

 

 

 

It looks like a poorly executed 1st semester, first year design by the first victim of cuts in architecture school.  How do some of these people become designers?

 

Come on Boys its a picture of the prototype, not the final product.  Are we over processing here?

 

Every other building has turned out great, I have great confidence the next phase will up the ante as Stonebridge Phase 5.  That building looks stunning and signals a new wave of modern and contemporary housing in Cleveland.

Trust me, I'm glad these guys keep building, they and Zaremba are the only ones to put shovels in the ground so far.  However, that is not contemporary residential design.  I realize it's a model, but that is where they are heading.  I hope they just have a severly underqualified model builder at Corna's studio, but from the quarter circles that are cut into the ground level of the building currently under construction, it's the designer that is the issue.

I see some of your points, but in fairness to Price & Corna, the Flats area they're developing in is, well let's just say, odd.  Its urban-industrial with lots of auto but very minor foot traffic in the immediate area.  I've screamed for sometime (here and elsewhere) that the City should develop a clearly lit path from the Settlers Landing Rapid stop to and across the Center Street bridge to encourage transit/pedestrian traffic -- even sprucing up retail/restaurant development around the Flat Iron but, noooo, this is car crazy/suburb oriented Cleveland so, of course -- deaf ears. 

 

Right now, I just want to see Stonebridge continue to expand despite whatever minor flaws it has.  It's the only major all new, multi-unit housing project that has been built downtown in the last decade and the most promising thing we've got going.  Stonebridge Commons may change the way people perceive the project...

 

... Still, my Q re elevator service from the Flats level to deck level via the Commons hasn't been definitively answered.

this may sound like a dumb question, but what is Stonebridge's master website? I can find PURE listings...but not the main site.

 

www.stonebridgewaterfront.com  This is the only site I know of, at one point I thought someone here said there is (was) going to be a and updated site.

 

The arch on the west side of the next building scares the hell out of me...

 

Yeah, I like the drama that they're going for on that side, but in those models, it looks just horrible and high-school design project-ish.  I sure hope the finished product looks/works better.

 

 

 

It looks like a poorly executed 1st semester, first year design by the first victim of cuts in architecture school.  How do some of these people become designers?

 

Come on Boys its a picture of the prototype, not the final product.  Are we over processing here?

 

Every other building has turned out great, I have great confidence the next phase will up the ante as Stonebridge Phase 5.  That building looks stunning and signals a new wave of modern and contemporary housing in Cleveland.

 

There is this site also...http://www.stonebridge-condominiums.com/. It's not very good though (it has been "under construction" since it went up in the middle of last year).

Thanks... The other site is in FLASH, yikes!

What the heck, photo update of Stonebridge Plaza from Jan. 12th:

 

looks sharp from floor 3 to the top!

Its really cool and modern to me.  I like the new type of building in cleveland.  Makes downtown appear to be more cosmopolitan.

Its really cool and modern to me.  I like the new type of building in cleveland.  Makes downtown appear to be more cosmopolitan.

 

agreed, any breath of fresh air is a good one.

Its really cool and modern to me.  I like the new type of building in cleveland.  Makes downtown appear to be more cosmopolitan.

 

agreed, any breath of fresh air is a good one.

 

Exactly or people wouldn't  be moving into them nor would the developers continue to build them. 

with their sucess, it appears others are following their lead.  the river is a selling point, and as people see with the great interest in the Park building, downtown is hot.

 

Yes, i'm an "outsider" but I feel there is a good amount of good housing options in Cleveland, especially downtown proper.  I've noticed people here state that some prices are too high or that tax abatement should be eliminated, but today...any home purchase in downtown cleveland is a good buy. 

 

Downtown has to have an "appeal" currently the housing stock is majority, renovate/convertions, and (to my knowledge) there aren't that many buildings left to convert, so thats when highrise new building will take off.  Those type of projects will be expensive, so you folks who buy today, much love, your purchase today will be in better position to appreciate and your ROI will be greater.

 

Cleveland has got a nice looking downtown.  Its the bright lights big city feel that will attract people and set it apart from re-emerging neighborhoods like, chinatown, midtown, UC, Ohio City, Tremont and Detroit-Shoreway, shaker square, little italy and hough.

 

In any event, it will be a "win-win" for any home buyer.

Yes, it's always nice to see new construction in/near downtown. And it's kinda fun seeing this from the Shoreway, adding to an already dense skyline as seen from the West.

Urbanistically, though, this building is a real downer to me. Why does it give the sidewalk the architectural equivalent of an obscene gesture? This is especially puzzling given all the lip service K&D (developers) have given to vibrant, walkable urban neighborhoods lately when describing their plans for the future. I hope they realize that a building like this is *preventing* such a neighborhood from emerging.

I understand your point, blinker, but maybe the Commons portion will at least somewhat pay homage to pedestrians... As I've said, before, I think the city and developers are ignoring peds in the east/west bank connection around the Center Street bridge which, on foot, is a totally unique walking experience.  I'd like to see more materialization of K&D's plans for planned phases to think, just yet, they've gone totally suburban on us...

ooh -- thx from all of us outta-towners mayday -- man, that is a sweet looking building and setting.

 

i cant wait to see the next commons phase, fingers crossed that is more approachable to pedestrians. b12 i wouldn't worry about that too much at this point, if they keep building like this there will soon be enough of a neighborhood for market forces to dictate shops and services be built into future phases. i believe corna is thinking let's just get some warm bodies living down there for right now...and i agree.

 

What the heck, photo update of Stonebridge Plaza from Jan. 12th:

 

 

Ohh! Can I have the one with the plastic windows?!!

 

Actually, I put a deposit down on one of those 1 bedroom units. I've been shopping for awhile, and after doing lots of research (a good portion of it from this website -- thanks guys!) I couldn't resist. Although, I don't think I fall into the "urban" enthusiasts category. At least not yet, anyway.

 

Keep the good info coming! I may have some pics to contribute myself, shortly.

 

and thanks again.

Ohh! Can I have the one with the plastic windows?!!

 

Actually, I put a deposit down on one of those 1 bedroom units. I've been shopping for awhile, and after doing lots of research (a good portion of it from this website -- thanks guys!) I couldn't resist. Although, I don't think I fall into the "urban" enthusiasts category. At least not yet, anyway.

 

Keep the good info coming! I may have some pics to contribute myself, shortly.

 

and thanks again.

 

Welcome to UO!

 

I can't wait to see your photos

So, they are amending their plan.  KJP, do you know anything about this??

 

from the city planning website:

PUD Plan Amendment: Stonebridge Towers, 2222 Detroit Avenue, garage plan

^Hmmm, 2222 Detroit is the Phase 4 condo building on the south side of the viaduct.  There is a surface parking lot next to it that they may want to turn into a parking deck.

As I was driving back to Ohio City from the snow belt last night, I heard an ad on the radio for Stonebridge.  Downtown development hitting the airwaves.

So, they are amending their plan.  KJP, do you know anything about this??

 

from the city planning website:

PUD Plan Amendment: Stonebridge Towers, 2222 Detroit Avenue, garage plan

 

No. I just saw it on the planning commission's web site about 20 minutes ago.

are you able to post a link? I think they are trying to get a varience for the garage spaces in building 4. thanks! p