Wrong, I just want Cincinnati to be Cincinnati, not some paved over Manhatten. I know very few people who complain about having to take the pedestrian bridges to either of the stadiums or the Banks. Capping FWW will do nothing but impede the flow of pedestrians to the stadiums, the park, or the Banks, while at the same time making travel on I-71 a nightmare.

 

I think kjbrill may have a fundamental misunderstanding of what exactly the "Fort Washington Way" caps are. He may want to re-read the details.

Wouldn't the caps only be between a few streets?  So were not even talking about a long tunnel, maybe a 3 or 4 block tunnel.

 

 

While we may not all agree with kjbrill, let's keep the conversation objective and not personal.

 

Some people are just incapable of doing that when the comments do not agree with their vciews.

 

I am simply saying capping FWW is not a priority project Far better ways to spend money to enhance the appeal of Cincinnati.

 

 

While we may not all agree with kjbrill, let's keep the conversation objective and not personal.

 

Some people are just incapable of doing that when the comments do not agree with their vciews.

 

I am simply saying capping FWW is not a priority project Far better ways to spend money to enhance the appeal of Cincinnati.

 

 

 

Actually, that wasn't what you were saying. You were essentially saying it's a bad idea because tunnels are dangerous and claustrophobic. That's very different from saying it's not a priority (which is to say that it may be a good idea, but money may be better spent elsewhere). No backpedaling here.

 

People lost their shit because your argument was pretty ridiculous. While you are entitled to your own opinion (that it's a bad idea), you aren't entitled to your own facts (asserting that tunnels are more dangerous).

Even more "flow" trolling from kjbrill.

 

Anytime you don't have a reasonable response you just accuse someone of trolling. Get's a little tiring after awhile.

^Well it's probably because your response for this project makes no sense. There is literally zero reasoning that supports this project depleting flow to the riverfront. All existing roads and sidewalks are remaining, just the holes will be filled with either park space (more flow) or buildings, neither of which will block or impede anything. That's like saying that building on one of the parking lots downtown will impede flow of pedestrians on the sidewalk. That just doesn't make any sense.

 

As for making 71 a nightmare, that also doesn't make sense. Tunnels actually cause people to slow and pay more attention to their surroundings since the sense of enclosure makes them subconsciously feel like they're traveling faster/closer to their surroundings than they really are. It's the same effect on street parking has on a road versus the same road without that street parking. It gives a better sense of speed making people feel the need to slow down. Accidents in tunnels are no more common than anywhere else on the highway.

 

The problem people have here with you is that you randomly burst into every single thread en masse and purposely say stuff, most of which is based on absolutely nothing in reality, with a clear goal of stirring things up. If you came here and acted like an intelligent, informed member and offered a differing opinion in a non-troll manner, people would likely welcome the discussion. Obviously this is a very urban-minded board, but the reality is that not everyone is a fan of urbanism and the majority of the population does not live in dense urban cores in Ohio and pretty much all of the country. I for one enjoy the suburban opinion and enjoy intelligent discussion and debate, but only if the person does so in a respectable manner and uses facts instead of making ridiculous claims like capping holes over a highway is going to make this a paved over manhattan. That just doesn't even make any sense. A highway is pure pavement. The caps will be buildings and greenspace. It's literally the exact opposite of what you said. This is why your posts are always met with annoyance and harsh criticism.

Some people are just incapable of doing that when the comments do not agree with their vciews.

 

I am simply saying capping FWW is not a priority project Far better ways to spend money to enhance the appeal of Cincinnati.

 

I tend to agree, in that there is value of capping Fort Washington Way only if there can be mid-rise buildings being constructed over it. Park space is nice, but costs money to maintain and isn't needed when there is plenty of park space along the riverfront. Pocket parks would be fine, but four blocks of parks is a little overkill. Even Boston with its Big Dig can't handle it all.

^I definitely agree. I think there could be some sort of plaza space, maybe at Vine, that is small but welcoming. On the scale of say the plaza at U Square (but of a higher quality) would work nicely. Then the rest of the blocks should be buildings. The riverfront park is an amazing park and shouldn't be competed against in such close proximity. Plus a giant continuous band of parks between buildings isn't going to be the best way of making the riverfront actually feel like a part of the city. Continuous buildings, however, will. I really hope they go that route.

jmicha ...

 

So I assume you believe putting buildings on the caps over FWW would not increase conjestion? Are these empty buildings or do people have to enter/exit them? You mention low-rise, how low? Are they residences or more bars/restaurants? If bars/restaurants they will definitely affect pedestrian flow. And greenspace, the new riverfront park does not need any competition at this point in time. Again, I am just saying there are many more ways to enhance rthe appeal of Cincinnati than capping FWW. Try taking on the West End for one.

But the thing is that the sidewalks as they are now are not only MASSIVELY wide, they're literally never congested. They're almost always completely and utterly deserted. Like uncomfortably deserted. Putting buildings filled with bars/restaurants/stores/residents/etc. isn't going to be able to cause the sidewalks to be so filled that people can't get where they're going. In fact, nowhere in the city are the sidewalks so full people can't get where they're going, even in the most dense parts of the city. Affecting pedestrian flow and negatively affecting pedestrian flow are not one in the same. An increase in people doesn't automatically mean an issue. I think that's where the problem in your thinking is. This is a city, people are everywhere. But that doesn't make it a problem. I don't know how familiar you are with the sidewalks along 2nd and 3rd street but they're absolutely humongous. Even with the insane amount of people around there before, during, and after Reds games they aren't full. They're designed to handle massive amounts of people and will continue to do so successfully when the caps are built.

 

As for traffic flow, sure, there'll be more cars there. But again, these roads are massive and only ever reach a point of being considered congested for about an hour a day at evening rush hour. At any other point the number of cars going to and from these developments is more than likely not even going to be noticeable. Plus the point of these projects is to create a better place to live for the urban oriented which means leaving the car behind when it's not completely necessary. For those who live in projects like The Banks, walking to places downtown and the riverfront is more common than driving. And this isn't based on speculation, it's based on talking with many people who live there. That was one of the major reasons for moving there. The Banks are never congested (excluding during the obvious Reds games but that's a completely different argument) and the caps won't be any different. They're only capable of being 4-5 stories tall so they won't be as densely populated as The Banks are if they turn out to be residential (that's still all undecided at this point as far as I know).

 

As for priorities, obviously that's arguable and based more on opinion. I am curious though, although I actually do agree the West End needs a lot of help in order for the core to be more appealing overall, wouldn't you think that finishing one project to its fullest is important once it's started? The Banks are successful, sure, but once FWW is capped and the city is continuous to the river is when the project will actually be finished and most successful in reconnecting areas of the city. The caps are going to be immensely expensive, that's for sure, but at the same time the impression of a continuous city that celebrates its riverfront, its reason for existing in the first place, is a huge asset. That's why I do believe that these should be capped directly following the completion of Smale Riverfront Park and all phases of The Banks. And I say after as I feel their impact will be most noticeable and effective once the riverfront is fully built out.

 

 

 

 

^^Hear, hear!

 

Of course, The Banks and Smale won't be completed for another, what, five years? And at that point the streetcar will be running and there will have been considerably more work done in OTR, Pendleton, and Downtown.  Doing the FWW caps would be a great way to keep the momentum going.

 

I absolutely agree that the West End is a problem that needs to be solved but I'm not sure if there's going to be enough energy/finances to tackle it in the form of public/private partnerships until The Banks is done and south of Liberty nears completion of all possible large scale redevelopments. I guess the hope is that the rising prices of OTR/Pendleton/DT real estate will encourage potential homeowners and developers to ake a look at the West End as the way to buy cheaply buy some terrific architecture in the basin.  Also, th fact that it's mostly single-family houses does make it more amenable to homeowner-based remodeling...

I tend to agree, in that there is value of capping Fort Washington Way only if there can be mid-rise buildings being constructed over it. Park space is nice, but costs money to maintain and isn't needed when there is plenty of park space along the riverfront. Pocket parks would be fine, but four blocks of parks is a little overkill. Even Boston with its Big Dig can't handle it all.

 

Capping Fort Washington Way has very little to do with what we put on top of it. The real benefit of capping the highway is so that walking from downtown to the Banks feels like one continuous neighborhood. This will have a huge impact on the quality of life in that area. That's why they did it in Columbus and other cities. In Columbus, it's only a 1-story building, but it makes the highway invisible to people passing over.

I actually think its really cool that we can walk over Ft. Washington Way and see cars zipping by.  Makes you feel like you're in a big, vibrant city.

Even more "flow" trolling from kjbrill.

 

Anytime you don't have a reasonable response you just accuse someone of trolling. Get's a little tiring after awhile.

 

No, it's because you seem to have a single-minded obsession about flow and "conjestion". It seems that in your mind (by your posting history) that the prime directive of society is to maximize flow and eliminate "conjestion" at all costs. That's generally not the rest of society's goal, just yours.

While we may not all agree with kjbrill, let's keep the conversation objective and not personal.

 

Some people are just incapable of doing that when the comments do not agree with their vciews.

 

 

 

You're more guilty of this than anyone.  If someone doesnt agree with your view then they are wrong.  The caps will only add to the cohesiveness of what the riverfront and downtown offer.  This is not the 1970s so get our of your car mentality and think walkability... or suburban mentality on your part. We know you dont like Cincy or the urban environment, but stop asserting this inane idea that people who appreciate the city dont know what they're talking about.  You clearly dont see the potential in the caps.  If it bothers you so much, stay up in Mason and forget about the city....

You know what's not a worthwhile use of my time? Finding some West Chester forum and telling them to tear it all down and make it look like OTR.

so is this actually going to get built anytime in the next century?

 

Not before the Banks and the park are built out, I wouldn't think. But it's on the table. I know Qualls wants it to happen. Not sure about Cranley.

Without actually knowing the answer I'd wager a guess that Cranley would be massively opposed to spending money on the caps.

^Well, only if he can manipulate it into a narrative like this:

 

"The FWW caps will steal money from the other neighborhoods and take police and and fire off the street.  Since I am fighting for the neighborhoods, I will be sure to wait until this project is half complete to cancel it."

Without actually knowing the answer I'd wager a guess that Cranley would be massively opposed to spending money on the caps.

 

I agree.

 

Also I don't think of the caps as big priorities right now. The city has very scarce capital dollars. I'd rather see more vacant buildings filled first or the park move further along. Or the streetcar continue further up the hill.

More attention needs to be made on the caps.  I know it's in the "idea" stage and what could be put on the caps, but it needs to pick up speed.  This is a vital connector to the riverfront.  We don't need to wait until the Banks is filled to start the caps.  They'll be an important connector.

 

As for what goes there, I love parks and fountains, but this would be overkill if we used the caps for this purpose and it wouldn't have the same sense of continuity from the CBD to the Banks.   

Grow food for downtown restaurants/residents on the caps:

http://nothingmajor.com/journal/377-agnes-denes-wheatfield/

Grow food for downtown restaurants/residents on the caps:

http://nothingmajor.com/journal/377-agnes-denes-wheatfield/

 

I do kind of question growing food just above pollution spewing vehicles that travel beneath it 24x7.

^Yes, the first person I brought up the idea to brought that up immediately.  However the real idea I had was to grow food in greenhouses, possibly on the roof of cap buildings, and I would assume that a greenhouse can filter the air that enters it.  Although I don't really know anything about farming, gardening, or any of that. 

^Yes, the first person I brought up the idea to brought that up immediately.  However the real idea I had was to grow food in greenhouses, possibly on the roof of cap buildings, and I would assume that a greenhouse can filter the air that enters it.  Although I don't really know anything about farming, gardening, or any of that. 

 

That might work.  I guess that anything including parks or retail would have to take into account the pollution as well for any humans that spend any decent amount of time on them.

Doesn't have to be food (though that would be cool).  Chicago has numerous places along the lake shore and LSD where they're reestablishing native prairie ecosystems.  Similar things could be done here with native plantings.

 

I am in the camp of hoping for parks/greenspace on the caps.  I see the attraction of buildings on the caps - especially if it's attraction-type stuff that makes the whole river front a crowd-magnet.  But I again look to Chicago as a model, with Millennium and Grant parks (over a rail trench) as the city's welcome mat, and then closer to the lake shore a string of parks and quieter open space.

I have to admit, the whole "greenspace and parks on the caps!" idea is baffling to me. The traffic sound from FWW is LOUD. People do not sit in the pleasant looking seating areas that exist around FWW today in part because of the noise.  The caps aren't going to completely enclose FWW, so all of that sound will still come up. and why would people go to those parks when they could go two blocks south and be at the far better Smale park? Greenspace in cities is lovely but only when it's actually used - when it's unused it actually makes areas feel less safe and welcoming.

 

the reason to have buildings is that they are more likely to encourage foot traffic and make people forget about the giant roadway humming along beneath their feet.

^The reason the pilings were done the way they were was to avoid having FWW become a "tunnel", as defined by the FHWA.  There is no reason why they couldn't drive more piles and make it a tunnel, although doing so would require mechanized ventilation.  People sit in Lytle Park without almost any highway noise.   

^The reason the pilings were done the way they were was to avoid having FWW become a "tunnel", as defined by the FHWA.  There is no reason why they couldn't drive more piles and make it a tunnel, although doing so would require mechanized ventilation.  People sit in Lytle Park without almost any highway noise.   

 

Agreed, since money is never a reason!  You guys aren't serious about spending tens of millions to obtain some urban farmland, are you?  Funniest comments I have ever read on UO. 

^The reason the pilings were done the way they were was to avoid having FWW become a "tunnel", as defined by the FHWA.  There is no reason why they couldn't drive more piles and make it a tunnel, although doing so would require mechanized ventilation.  People sit in Lytle Park without almost any highway noise. 

 

yeah, and if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. :-p

 

I agree, you could make FWW into a true tunnel which would bring a lot more expense to the project.  but what we were discussing was what would be appropriate for the caps as currently proposed. I'm pretty sure that making FWW a tunnel would significantly raise the price and scope of the project, and I'd really have to wonder if we couldn't spend that money in a better way elsewhere.

Out of curiosity, where are these gaps in the caps to be located? Are they along the roads as they cross? If so, is it all four roads that cross or just select spots to break up the length (isn't the length part of what determines whether or not it's actually a tunnel?)? I know someone once explained it nicely but I don't know where and I can't for the life of me remember what was said.

I have in my mind that they would be at the roads that cross over. However, if possible, I think mid-block would be much better. Having buildings fronting the north-south streets would be much better for connecting the riverfront to Downtown.

 

jmeck probably has a definitive answer.

 

We're still no closer to solving the conjestion problem, though. :-D

I am glad to see there is at least some discussion as to the true value of the caps.

 

More pedestrian spans over FWW would certainly be in order as well as streetcar supporting spans so to not further reduce the vehicle traffic capacity. I am sure the pilings originally installed would support that.

 

I get a kick out of ideas such as putting greenhouses or urban farms on the caps to grow food. Great idea, put food growing on top of a pollution belching highway. If you want urban food growing just go to Queensgate and plow up some of the unused land there. Should be a lot cheaper than caps on FWW. If you see to it they have water to irrigate and are taxed at farm rates rather than developed rates, you might actually get private investors to jump on that. Greenhouses in Queensgate would certainly be an improvement over what is there now.

 

Good discussion about the caps, which I am against, mainly because I consider them superfluous, unnecessary, and a waste of money. Obviously others disagree with me. But I will continue to follow the discussion, as it is interesting.

 

 

Obviously their value is contended by a lot of people, but do you not feel that a continuous Downtown all the way to the river would be extremely beneficial to the perception of our city? Just for the moment don't think about the driving experience on FWW or any possibility of increased traffic/decreased flow or any of that. Just think purely about what the caps will do for the fabric of the built environment of the city. Is it not important to be able to get to the river without having to cross a massive divide? Because the combination of 3rd Street, FWW, and 2nd Street is a barrier. It isn't comfortable to cross and people will subconsciously avoid places that make them uncomfortable. I am entirely in favor of the caps just so people have the best imaginable perception of the waterfront which has been neglected for so long.

Part of my suggestion is about "making a point" about the problem with having food transported literally across a continent, which is itself a major contributor to fossil fuel consumption and it motivates food growers to genetically modify the food in order to survive 2-3 days in transport. 

 

Here is the video I saw that gave me the idea:

 

>have in my mind that they would be at the roads that cross over.

 

Correct, the gaps are 10-15 wide to either side of the overpasses.  I have photos of the piles being driven here:

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zfww2000-7.jpg

 

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zfww2000-6.jpg

 

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zfww2000-5.jpg

 

 

Part of my suggestion is about "making a point" about the problem with having food transported literally across a continent, which is itself a major contributor to fossil fuel consumption and it motivates food growers to genetically modify the food in order to survive 2-3 days in transport. 

 

Here is the video I saw that gave me the idea:

 

>have in my mind that they would be at the roads that cross over.

 

Correct, the gaps are 10-15 wide to either side of the overpasses.  I have photos of the piles being driven here:

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zfww2000-7.jpg

 

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zfww2000-6.jpg

 

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zfww2000-5.jpg

 

The photos of the piles justify exactly what? First of all they were required as retaining walls for the dig.

Doesn't mean they have to support structures.

 

If you want to be so concerned about trucking foods across the country, you talk like every farmer out there has the ability to genetically modify foods, then get behind initiatives to save the family farm in Ohio and provide a much shorter shipping distance. If you are convinced an urban farm is the solution, then campaign for digging up much of the disaster called Queensgate. There are just many other solutions less expensive than trying to grow food over FWW.

If you want to be so concerned about trucking foods across the country, you talk like every farmer out there has the ability to genetically modify foods, then get behind initiatives to save the family farm in Ohio and provide a much shorter shipping distance. If you are convinced an urban farm is the solution, then campaign for digging up much of the disaster called Queensgate. There are just many other solutions less expensive than trying to grow food over FWW.

 

Agreed. Rooftop gardening/green roofs are cool things (and it'd be nice to see more buildings that have them) but the amount given from space over FWW would be a drop in the bucket of local food needs. Findlay Market and all of the local farmers' markets are a much better way of helping to support and raise awareness of local farms. 

 

It's also worth remembering that there's a lot of farming in the western part of Hamilton County and in counties that about Hamilton County. We're actually lucky in how much local produce and food is available to us.

>The photos of the piles justify exactly what? First of all they were required as retaining walls for the dig.

Doesn't mean they have to support structures.

 

The FWW piles are completely independent from the piles that were driven to build the trench walls.  I believe there is also a completely independent flood wall between the south trench wall and the Riverfront Transit Center.  Right now the FWW cap piles are performing absolutely zero structural purpose. 

 

That said, I am concerned that they along with the other riverfront piles are so deep that they will force a future subway tunnel under the Ohio River connecting Fountain Square and Covington to be built much deeper, meaning the tunnel must start descending at Central Parkway and a Fountain Square station would be much deeper and more expensive than otherwise necessary.  I'm sure there are examples around the world where a tunnel has been built through a "fence" of underground piles, but not being an engineer I can't speculated into which option is less extremely expensive. 

 

 

>If you want to be so concerned about trucking foods across the country, you talk like every farmer out there has the ability to genetically modify foods, then get behind initiatives to save the family farm in Ohio and provide a much shorter shipping distance. If you are convinced an urban farm is the solution, then campaign for digging up much of the disaster called Queensgate. There are just many other solutions less expensive than trying to grow food over FWW.

 

1. They are already planning to build the caps anyway.  That cost can't be held against the cost of anything built on top of the caps. 

2. There are all sorts of vegetables that can't grow naturally in this area and none can grow year-round outdoors. 

^^ Did I say grow them outdoors? You can build greenhouses in Queensgate for a fractiion of what it costs to put them on caps over FWW. So what is the problem with that?

^You missed that it would be making a point, like the World Trade Center field back in 1982.  If people eat at a restaurant and can see where the food was grown that they are eating, it makes a point.  If a city turns over high profile land to growing food, it makes a point. 

 

 

I could see a farm-to-table restaurant being successful on one of the caps. Put the farm on the roof, with the restaurant on street level. Put some residential between.

 

Make some outdoor eating space on the roof among the plants.

^You missed that it would be making a point, like the World Trade Center field back in 1982.  If people eat at a restaurant and can see where the food was grown that they are eating, it makes a point.  If a city turns over high profile land to growing food, it makes a point. 

 

 

 

You missed his point entirely. It's better to tear down an area where a bunch of poor people live instead.

You missed his point entirely. It's better to tear down an area where a bunch of poor people live instead.

 

oh come on, Queensgate has very little residential left and is mostly commercial and light industrial and I'm sure you know this. If you were looking to grow fields of wheat in view of downtown that'd absolutely be the most logical place to do it.

Fair enough, sometimes when people refer to Queesgate they mean the housing north of 71, NE of Winchell Ave.

 

For sure a lot of that light industrial has seen better days if it hasn't been razed already. If that's what kjbrill meant, I apologize.

I don't see any potential for profit with putting a farm over FWW. Or any incentive either. If you are going to farm anything there, might as well be the sun and throw in some solar panels over some low-rise warehouse-style buildings. Possibly put storefronts on the street-facing sides and you'd be set! Great location for a fashion retailer to test and distribute product, like The Limited or Abercrombie and Fitch.

 

Better yet, make it a park as was suggested earlier. If the cap was done correctly, you would not even notice FWW below.

 

 

What is all of this idiotic talk about farming on the caps.  I'm sorry if this offends some people, but that is exactly what it is.  There is so much land available around and outside of the city to grow food.  It would be such a waste of space to grow the minimal amount of food that you would get off of them.  It is such a small amount of space in a highly desirable connector area between the CBD and the Banks. 

 

 

Okay I was told this was my worst idea ever I'm going to concede defeat as of this moment.  As of this very post.  My bad. 

^At least a bad idea is better than no idea at all!

 

 

Hopefully they will put a cap over FWW sometime in the near future though. Cincinnati is lucky that the highway was built submerged and not above ground, like most highways are in major cities. It's a lot easier to cap and reconnect the city than demolish, submerge, and reconnect a la Boston and the Big Dig. With the success at the Banks and relatively high real estate prices (and demand) throughout the City of Cincinnati, I can easily see a cap being built within the next 5-10 years assuming the right developer and plan are sought.

 

 

we could have an urban rollercoaster or a petting zoo lol