I agree, keeping the caps plain plazas for a few weekend festivals makes no sense.  But at the same time, large apartment blocks would require parking garages in the center, and those garages would be more expensive than normal garages because they'd have a much wider span between pillars. 

As long as we don't end up like Reno with their Walgreens highway cap, I'm fine with it.

 

I think over-saturating the market for retail and restaurant space makes no sense. The Banks still has a bunch of vacant retail space. Adding more retail space is not going to help. And I find it hard to imagine a development with no interaction with the street grid exhibiting a positive effect on the neighborhood. It wouldn't make it any more walkable or enjoyable when crossing FWW.

 

And just because the caps could be designed to accommodate Oktoberfest, Taste, etc doesn't mean that it would only be used for that.

But why is retail or restaurant space the only thing that can interact with the street? Hotels have very active entrances, workspace could be located on the ground level, something like WeWork could be setup in a street level spot, residential amenity space could be located on the street level, etc. There are a lot of options that wouldn't add to a glut of retail space in that portion of Downtown.

Yeah my hunch is that street level office with extended stay hotel above could work.  The other very obvious thing is if someone came forward and funded a big new art museum or other type of museum. 

 

 

Also a gym. 

At the same time I COULD see some sort of super creative indoor public space which occupies the site but has programmable elements on top/around it. A large interior winter garden that occupies a large courtyard space within the blocks and is linked together and ringed with residential development could be super interesting, provide a large public space, and still allow development. And it could be something really noteworthy architecturally that would call attention to the project and build excitement and greater support. Could be an offset of Krohn or something.

 

Edit: Something like this where there's a long bar that's public that occupies the centers of the blocks and has development along the long edges of the blocks.

 

Office space would work well here. You'd have big floor plates with huge clear spans - office tenants love that. If the county/feds pay for the caps/foundation, a spec office building could be built with white boxed interiors very cheaply. It doesn't really need to be tall - something 4 stories or so would work perfectly. Parking isn't really a problem as most downtown office workers still walk at least a few blocks from lots/garages to their workplaces.

I was thinking about the caps on my bus ride home today (and felt like procrastinating instead of studying) so I put together a quick drawing of what I would like to see. Instead of having all open park space (which is a waste of money and real estate) or having the whole thing covered in big flat buildings (which wouldn't liven up the street or help connect downtown to the banks) why don't we do a mix of both? From above it looks like a zipper, with interlocking "teeth" shaped buildings where park space opens up to a promenade along the center which would provide public space. I show the park space lifting up in the middle to allow an access alley/drive underneath to accommodate trash pick up, deliveries etc. for the buildings above as well as the retail or office storefronts on either side. Where the park opens up to 2nd and 3rd street frontages a 20' gap would be provided to allow people in, but also allow it to be closed off/access controlled when it needs to be. I think it could provide a very cool almost high-line-esque promenade in the city as well as provide multiple connections across the large blocks to help break them up visually and for pedestrian movement. When the large festivals like Oktoberfest occur, beer gardens and tents could be set up along the central promenade which would be approximately 50' wide between buildings.

 

For perspective the way I modeled this would allow for 102 units (@800sqft) per block on the upper three floors with ground level left open for retail or office. This would allow 408 units or equivalent space for offices to help pay for the subsequent blocks while also keeping some public open space.

 

 

Edit: Something like this where there's a long bar that's public that occupies the centers of the blocks and has development along the long edges of the blocks.

 

 

So something like the Emery Arcade that predated the Carew Tower?

Yeah, but taller and less of a structured environment and more of an indoor park. Winter gardens are becoming a much more common thing and it could be a really cool asset to have. I could imagine it being a really big draw if done properly.

Keep in mind that only the two center blocks will be full blocks. The easternmost and westernmost blocks will only be half-blocks. That is what the current infrastructure would support. I also heard from a former mayor that there would still need to be a gap between the caps and the north/south streets (in other words, the entrances to these buildings could only face 2nd and 3rd streets) but I'm not totally sure that's accurate.

These are sweet ideas and would really create a unique place for people to visit. But unfortunately one limitation of the setup is that a true highway cap is not possible. If I recall correctly Unfortunately it's set up so that a north-south opening to the highway below must remain in the middle of the two middle blocks, and the two blocks on each end can only accomodate a half deck.

Keep in mind that only the two center blocks will be full blocks. The easternmost and westernmost blocks will only be half-blocks. That is what the current infrastructure would support. I also heard from a former mayor that there would still need to be a gap between the caps and the north/south streets (in other words, the entrances to these buildings could only face 2nd and 3rd streets) but I'm not totally sure that's accurate.

 

Jinx! Buy me a beer

 

EDIT: this is different from what I was saying. I thought the gap had to be in the middle of the block

The Main Street bridge and Elm Street bridge have sidewalks that jut out from the street and there's a grate between the sidewalk and the road. Is that a possible solution to add frontage to the North/South streets? You would keep the road separate, but the sidewalks could still access the buildings in the blocks.

Seems like that would work.

With the gaps, the decks remain decks.  If the gaps are closed, then the space becomes a "tunnel" and so requires mechanized ventilation and a host of FHA design considerations. 

With the gaps, the decks remain decks.  If the gaps are closed, then the space becomes a "tunnel" and so requires mechanized ventilation and a host of FHA design considerations.

 

What is the maximum distance between gaps to not trigger the "tunnel" designation?

I don't know.  I believe the gaps will be something like 10-15 feet.  It will be weird in the rain or snow to drive along FWW and have that stuff hitting in that pattern. 

$80 million is a big price tag, but the city would almost surely not cover much of that cost itself. Pittsburgh was just awarded a very large TIGER grant to fund a cap there. We'd have to take a similar approach, I'd guess. Meaning that we would probably have to closely look at the metrics the Feds consider for awarding funding when deciding what the caps get used for and what is built on top of them.

 

The talk of using $80million for any number of projects ignores the fact that these caps would have to be funded through a combination of funding sources. Reminds me of the false narrative around allocating streetcar money to other things. Surprising to see that type of conversation on this forum.

 

Trump's proposed federal budget, out today, eliminates TIGER grants. We squandered our opportunities to grab that money while it was available.

I know:

 

Tiger grants are gone

 

Other parts of our "urban fabric" need repair before the construction of the expensive caps

 

Downtown needs to play "small ball" and add residents and not look for the next big gimmick

 

Retail is struggling and there is already tons of vacant space

 

And this idea probably could not recover the investment on the caps as well as be possibly obsolete by the time the caps are done BUT

 

What about an outlet mall on top of the caps. Would be great for creating foot traffic and serving the tourist industry already drawn by the Banks.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/surprise-outlet-malls-are-hot-1490094007

 

Portune calls for expanded convention center, Fort Washington Way decks

 

 

Expanding both Duke Energy and the Sharonville convention centers. Putting decks over Fort Washington Way. Completing the mixed-use development at the riverfront. Mapping out the future of U.S. Bank Arena.

---

If one Fort Washington Way deck is funded, the revenue generated by it can fund the other decks, Portune said. He said one deck could be a park, while the other three would be developed.

 

“We’re going to finish the Banks and the full buildout of the Banks,” Portune said.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/04/06/portune-calls-for-expanded-convention-center-fort.html

Why expand the Sharonville convention center? It's already bad enough that the metro has 3 convention centers.

They also just expanded did they not? To add, if the caps are done, hopefully its not hastily and low budget. The Banks has been the most disappointing public project I've ever seen, and if we keep allowing that quality in such a significant area, we're shooting ourselves in the foot in 20 years.

What exactly has been so disappointing about the banks?

Can't speak for what exactly Yves dislikes, but as an architect I can tell you what I think is problematic.

 

The overall planning is actually quite nice with proper street grid, buildings built up to the right of way, nice integration of Smale into the Banks, etc. But then it sort of falls apart.

 

1) The architecture: The buildings are all so wildly "nothing" and could be picked up and plopped in Anytown, USA and nobody would notice. It's a shame there wasn't a push for something more distinct here since the quality of Smale is top notch.

 

2) The materials: The quality of the materials chosen is quite low. Which will likely lead to the buildings needing a lot of work in a short period of time. Which has a silver lining in that maybe we can redo them with better materials which will help the architectural quality overall. Just have to wait a couple decades haha.

 

3) The form: Mega-blocks don't work. As far as mega-blocks go these aren't the worst as their street levels are pretty well activated, but it would have been significantly better to have smaller buildings by different developers, architects, etc. for variety. I get WHY that didn't happen, but it's unfortunate.

 

Those are my main problems. Things like the revolving door of tenants will eventually stabilize once it's fully built out and has had time to mature. But the buildings themselves are less than great.

^I'm a big fan of tree cover masking some of the architecture.  I think that makes everything cozier and looking more mature.  I don't know if that is possible though here because the parking ramps are below grade and the roots may not be able to go deep enough for any type of significant tree cover.

 

As a pedestrian in the summer time, it's a hot and blazing area with all the concrete and sunlight / UV Rays

 

Here is Pearl District in Portland showing nice tree cover, IMO which would work good at the Banks:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pearl+District,+Portland,+OR/@45.531182,-122.6834399,3a,75y,158.4h,93.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfCs9xgW_XNon7GiR6mIi9Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DfCs9xgW_XNon7GiR6mIi9Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D115.16376%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x549509fe42c62a61:0xbf294ba55f24a8a6!8m2!3d45.530209!4d-122.6812039!6m1!1e1

 

vs.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati,+OH/@39.0972713,-84.5097271,3a,75y,94.28h,94.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAHFFLLu3xCF7coQ6s1E8HQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DAHFFLLu3xCF7coQ6s1E8HQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.618269%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x884051b1de3821f9:0x69fb7e8be4c09317!8m2!3d39.1031182!4d-84.5120196!6m1!1e1

Depends on the builder, too. The original Gateway One building at Central/Vine stood out for its modern design (and attached parking garage), but fell short in material quality. It's why the managing company has had to correct numerous issues with the facade over the years.

 

I'll say it again: I wish Steiner + Associates had developed out The Banks. They have done a wonderful job with Liberty Center, Easton Town Center, Pullman Square, The Greene (and had a hand in a major proposal for out-of-the-way Bluefield, W.Va.). Their master planning is second-to-none and we could have ended up with a far better executed project.

 

I look to the Arena District in Columbus as inspiration. Sure, people have complained that it contains too much brick, but it's of high quality. Appropriately sized floor plates, tall windows, tumbled bricks, varied designs. We should be aiming for something better.

Depends on the builder, too. The original Gateway One building at Central/Vine stood out for its modern design (and attached parking garage), but fell short in material quality. It's why the managing company has had to correct numerous issues with the facade over the years.

 

I'll say it again: I wish Steiner + Associates had developed out The Banks. They have done a wonderful job with Liberty Center, Easton Town Center, Pullman Square, The Greene (and had a hand in a major proposal for out-of-the-way Bluefield, W.Va.). Their master planning is second-to-none and we could have ended up with a far better executed project.

 

I look to the Arena District in Columbus as inspiration. Sure, people have complained that it contains too much brick, but it's of high quality. Appropriately sized floor plates, tall windows, tumbled bricks, varied designs. We should be aiming for something better.

 

They did. It's called Newport on the Levee.

Some more information on the newest highway caps coming to Columbus:

 

http://www.columbusunderground.com/caps-planned-for-high-and-third-street-bridges-south-of-downtown-bw1

Event tomorrow (Thursday) on the Cap Project, hosted by Architectural Foundation of Cincinnati and AIA Cincinnat: http://www.architecturecincy.org/healing-the-divide-page/

 

Coverage from WVXU: http://wvxu.org/post/challenges-and-benefits-decking-ft-washington-way

 

 

The City started demolishing the concrete benches on 3rd Street per a request from Downtown Cincinnati Inc., the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp., REDI, Strategies to End Homelessness and Cincinnati police. One block has had the benches removed already, but David Mann requested the demolitions on the other blocks be halted until City Council can weigh in on October 2nd.

 

The group that requested the benches be demolished also requested that the trees be removed... which strikes me as truly backwards. Fortunately, the City pushed back on the request to remove the trees. Getting rid of benches and trees is not a "solution" to homelessness... it just makes our city uglier and less livable (for everybody).

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2017/09/21/third-st-benches-spot-homeless-demolished-over-lewd-behavior/689776001/

Those trees on Third are starting to mature nicely and that side of third would be a barren wasteland without them. We need to place a high value on street trees. NEVER remove for "security" or building visibility reasons. You're right, people are profoundly backwards on this.

 

Trees have a psychological benefit that makes urban living less harsh, raise property value, and are a key ingredient to the world class streets.

I never understood why those benches were installed to begin with.  Who was going to sit there OTHER than homeless people?  The only time I've seen them used by non-homeless people is during Oktoberfest. 

To be honest I didn't know those were benches. I thought they were just decorative concrete elements that got installed with the new FWW.

Some office workers do eat lunch there from time to time. The stretch between Main and Walnut was recently redone. Why not just complete the next three blocks?

Portune eyes big federal grant for Fort Washington Way decks

By Chris Wetterich  –  Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune wants the county to apply for a major federal grant to put at least one deck over Fort Washington Way to spur development and complete the region’s vision of connecting downtown and the Banks.

 

Applications for the highly competitive Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery program through the U.S. Department of Transportation are due Oct. 16. The TIGER program was the main source for $45 million in federal funding for the $148 million initial phase of the streetcar. Money for the streetcar was the last time the region submitted a successful application under the program.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/27/portune-eyes-big-federal-grant-for-fort.html

To be honest I didn't know those were benches. I thought they were just decorative concrete elements that got installed with the new FWW.

 

Pretty sure they once had metal benches fixed to them and that the concrete was the support.

 

To be honest I didn't know those were benches. I thought they were just decorative concrete elements that got installed with the new FWW.

 

Pretty sure they once had metal benches fixed to them and that the concrete was the support.

 

 

Wow... those sidewalks on 2nd street have been a design failure on so many levels. You can see it by looking at it over the last 10 years on streetview:

<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@39.097816,-84.513357,3a,75y,328.66h,96.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfjNvrLcrgQMu5vlJjvJD3A!2e0!5s20070701T000000!7i3328!8i1664">2007: metal benches that rust, two rows of (maple?) trees, brick pavers</a>

<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0977576,-84.5133862,3a,75y,349.07h,98.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQenJVu3JOIlTB10yeXuVPw!2e0!5s20111001T000000!7i13312!8i6656">2011: trees removed, metal benches removed, concrete pedestals remain</a>

<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0977609,-84.5134569,3a,75y,348.79h,90.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skzNrhAd9pvnEu8rTD_KZsA!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656">2016: Replace pavers with cement, remove concrete pedestals, tear down trees, plant 1 row of new trees (cypress) on side closer to highway</a>

 

The rest of the Fort Washington Way project seems like it was well designed and managed, so I'm not sure why this aspect was overlooked/shortchanged. The 3rd street side has also been a mismanaged mess, but at least they've been able to let two rows of trees grow to maturity on 3rd Street.

I mean why wouldn't you include this in your pitch?

 

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/10/10/portune-confirms-fort-washington-way-decks-under.html

The Urban Land Institute has a competition every year called the Hines Student Competition. Graduate student teams made up of urban planning, architecture, engineering, etc programs across the country work to solve an urban planning problem.

 

The 2019 competition was to connect the Cincinnati riverfront with the Central Business District by capping Fort Washington Way! There are four teams that were named finalists: one from MIT, two from UT at Austin, and another from.... The University of Cincinnati!

 

You can look at all of the finalists' proposals here. A winner will be announced in April.

 

To be clear, there is no money attached to implementing the winning proposal, but it is a cool competition.

I have no idea what I'm looking at with any of those. 

 

It's times like these when I remember a conversation I had when I was 19 who got a summer job at an architecture office but who had no interest in architecture: "if you get hired to design a high school football stadium, draw them a dome". 

Not sure what you're having trouble seeing. There's nothing in any of those that's overly challenging to understand. Maybe you just aren't the type of person who would ever be viewing a design competition submission?

 

They're interesting, but all of them rely in part on demolishing something that has already been developed. Which is a shame. I get why they made those moves in each, but still, it would have been stronger to use real world scenarios.

One thing that most of these proposals have is a lagoon/pool area down by the riverfront. I think getting a lagoon or the originally designed boat dock would be crucial to finishing the already great riverfront park. 

 

One thing I like as a thought moving forward is from MIT's submission. They show the caps mostly as buildings, but with a park space that runs North/South adjacent to the Freedom Center. I think if you place the caps with a park running East/West it will still keep the banks and downtown just as divided as they are now, but if you aligned the park space North/South as shown by MIT it would connect through the banks to downtown instead of separating the two. I think it would make sense to place it on the Vine street side, not Walnut as they show, since their plan would require demolishing Yard House. Also Vine street is a more prominent street for Cincinnati, and the park could terminate at the carousel. 

 

What I appreciate about the MIT/Harvard and the UT Austin proposal is creating a "Museum Campus" around the Freedom Center. I think that is a strong move to make the Freedom Center a civic node for The Banks neighborhood and I think that is most effectively accomplished by transforming the cap block north of Freedom Center to park or plaza and all others would be built up. 

 

I also continue to push, whenever I get a chance, the idea that the caps are built to carry a 4-story building, but that building doesn't have to be limited to 4 stories. The 4-story building limit is a weight calculation, not a height calculation. So, by building a building on stilts with plaza beneath or out of incredibly lightweight construction, you could potentially go higher. 

The one issue I have with building densely on the caps is that we still have a lot of build-able land in Downtown Cincinnati that should be filled before we start adding even more space

 

The Banks still has a lot of square footage to fill up, and there are plenty of surface lots and underutilized buildings that need to be renovated before we should be adding even more new construction. The more we create land to build more residential/commercial, the slower the rest of the CBD will redevelop. 

Pretty dumb question here that I have always had concerning the Fort Washington Way Cap; what is the exact weight limit?  Can these potential highway caps hold a large building, like a museum?  If I look at the potential highway caps, Freedom Center, and the Banks, I always wonder if the Freedom Center (which is not 1 large building, but 3 smaller buildings connected by elevated walkways) could be removed from their foundations, and moved 1 block north to a cap over Fort Washington Way?  It would open up a large prime plot of land at the Banks, give an anchor building to have on the highway caps, and would seem to help bridge (pun intended) the gap between the CBD and the Banks.

I think if the caps get built, we need to have buildings on the West side of Race and East side of Walnut to completely hide the view of the expressway from the new caps. If the two blocks between Race and Walnut were open space with two bookend buildings on either end that would be a good mixture of both, because I think you make a good point about not wanting to hurt development in the rest of CBD.

 

The bookends don't even need to (or can't for fresh-air to the would be tunnel below) be full block, but just deep enough to have an anchor restaurant/retail below and a couple floors of office/residential above. I'm picturing a 3-4 story building with a similar footprint to the High Street overpass on 670 in Columbus on either end of the parks. The middle space can remain open and be labeled as 'festival grounds' to give a more permanent home to taste of Cincinnati and Oktoberfest. 

3 minutes ago, cincymonkey said:

Pretty dumb question here that I have always had concerning the Fort Washington Way Cap; what is the exact weight limit?  Can these potential highway caps hold a large building, like a museum?  If I look at the potential highway caps, Freedom Center, and the Banks, I always wonder if the Freedom Center (which is not 1 large building, but 3 smaller buildings connected by elevated walkways) could be removed from their foundations, and moved 1 block north to a cap over Fort Washington Way?  It would open up a large prime plot of land at the Banks, give an anchor building to have on the highway caps, and would seem to help bridge (pun intended) the gap between the CBD and the Banks.

 

The Freedom Center got the land it has because the organization had formed and was looking for a site just as plans for the riverfront were formulating.  So they got the best piece of land in the Banks development.  I have no idea why they decided to build that building the way they did, as three separate buildings. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

The one issue I have with building densely on the caps is that we still have a lot of build-able land in Downtown Cincinnati that should be filled before we start adding even more space

 

The Banks still has a lot of square footage to fill up, and there are plenty of surface lots and underutilized buildings that need to be renovated before we should be adding even more new construction. The more we create land to build more residential/commercial, the slower the rest of the CBD will redevelop.  

One might argue that air gaps over a highway have a greater deadening effect than surface parking lots.