What are the chances GE helps pay for this? I'm thinking pretty decent.

What are the chances GE helps pay for this? I'm thinking pretty decent.

 

I would love to have your unbridled optimism, but getting GE to the city required the city to give them a lot of sweet, sweet tax breaks.  It's hard to see GE turning around and then spending that saved money on caps when it won't make GE any more money.

 

I would LOVE to be wrong.  maybe they'll decide that part of their center will be a building on the cap because it can have a very large floor plate.

Even if they didn't pay for them but nudged them ahead in the public discourse it'd be nice. I mean it seems like they should, at the very least, be supportive of the idea behind closed doors. It would improve the value of their real estate investment and increase QoL for their workers.

Cap it with a jet engine sculpture park and learning center!

I could see a park being put over FWW called GE Sculpture Garden or something.  It's not without precedent.  I doubt GE will make the first move though.

I still really hope these don't end up being parks. I think with Smale nearby there's already plenty of park space. And as much as I love parks they don't do a great job of connecting neighborhoods together. The Banks would feel so much more connected to Downtown if these end up being buildings. Or, at the very least, buildings at the ends so it becomes enclosed on four sides by development.

^ Agreed.  It's not stitching back together the urban fabric when you just leave empty space.  Boston's Big Dig is a major fail in that regard, but we've been over this all before. 

Cap it with a jet engine sculpture park and learning center!

 

Perhaps a Thomas Edison statue while we are at it :D

any clue what happened to the design contest pertaining to these from last year?

Cap it with a jet engine sculpture park and learning center!

 

Perhaps a Thomas Edison statue while we are at it :D

 

They could throw in one of Tesla too, just to show that that whole AC/DC thing is water under the bridge...  :-)

any clue what happened to the design contest pertaining to these from last year?

 

Cranley ate the winning entry.

any clue what happened to the design contest pertaining to these from last year?

 

It was Cranley/Qualls initiative, I guarantee Cranley's administration will never mention it.

Could Downtown's next development sit on top of I-71?

Bowdeya Tweh, [email protected] 5:36 p.m. EDT July 31, 2014

 

 

For 14 years, planners have dreamed of building a four-block park over Fort Washington Way, connecting the city's revitalized Downtown with its remade riverfront.

 

Now the idea is getting a fresh look.

 

Nothing concrete has changed – the idea is still only that – but General Electric Co.'s upcoming move to The Banks with up to 2,500 new workers is pumping new excitement into old notions.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/07/28/bridging-gap-downtown-river/13265689/

Last Spring, the sidewalk pavers on the north side of 2nd Street (above the Transit Center) were removed and replaced with concrete. See discussion here.

 

A week ago the same process began on the south side of 3rd Street. As with 2nd Street, this was sorely needed as the entire sidewalk was very uneven. Thankfully the trees are staying.

New sidewalks along FWW look great!

 

Hard to believe that the project was finished 15 years ago...although it is disappointing to see how little the trees have grown in that time.  Perhaps they will suddenly take off.  The trees along Jefferson Ave. next to UC suddenly started getting big in the last five years even though they've been there for over 30 years. 

Sadly this is only one block, between Main & Walnut. Its been "complete" for three weeks yet still waiting for it to reopen. Everything west of Walnut still needs to be addressed...

This project now has a website:

http://www.connecttheblocks.org

Definitely key to connect the city...but would a tall building be possible on those caps? I'm talking 15-20 stories?

No, Fort Washington Way was built to support up to 5 stories of development above the highway. Not huge, but if done correctly it could still be really great for reconnecting Downtown to the riverfront.

What about the all the surface lots along Third Street? Wouldn't those be easier to develop? Or would it really be easier to do a public private partnership to do this first?

 

Really interesting to see the balance of incentives that spur development and the misaligned incentives that prevent development. Not quite socialism but not quite a free market either.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/10/09/money-fort-washington-way-could-mimic-columbus-example/73663046/

 

"... it would take another $80 million to $90 million to cover an area that's smaller than four acres in size."

 

"...Gabelman said four levels of commercial development could be built on top of the decking."

This project now has a website:

http://www.connecttheblocks.org

 

Was that site put up just recently?

 

If so, could this mean that we could perhaps see potential development plans for the Caps be put in place 2-3 years from now?

The domain was originally registered by the city on Sept. 17, 2013.

 

I wonder if this is suddenly becoming a hot topic because of the debate around the "Parks Tax" and the possibility of using that money to fund the FWW caps. Perhaps this project will be dangled out there closer to Election Day as a way to get urbanists to support Issue 22.

The domain was originally registered by the city on Sept. 17, 2013.

 

I wonder if this is suddenly becoming a hot topic because of the debate around the "Parks Tax" and the possibility of using that money to fund the FWW caps. Perhaps this project will be dangled out there closer to Election Day as a way to get urbanists to support Issue 22.

 

Wasn't the Caps an eventual phase of The Banks Master Plan? Could this just be a initial outline phasing for the Caps?

To what extent has the streetcar raised the value of the cap between Main and Walnut? 

Would I be crazy in thinking the best option for the caps is a public square/European type of plaza? And perhaps adorned with a really glorious piece of public art..I'm talking that's a eye catching center piece similar to the Fountain on fountain square...maybe a sculpture for each cap that ties into one big type of sculpture?

 

In my mind I envision something like this:

 

 

Very European esque, maybe benches, reflecting tile, many trees....a large fountain or reflecting pool perhaps? Just a really neat gathering spot to sit and relax.

 

Granted I know, that Smale river front park sort of fills that role..But I'm sort of envisioning a public European type of square that's similar to fountain square...Where you can read the paper, drink a cup of coffee, etc, maybe have vendors sell trinkets and what not?

 

In my mind it's not necessarily more green space, but more of a urban public gathering space. A square, that's just divided into 4 caps.

It's my understanding that there couldn't be large trees like those pictured on FWW decks.  And the trees are what makes that place in the photo especially inviting.

People are forgetting that the piles that were driven in 2000 enabled "decks", not a full tunnel.  Gaps of about 10 feet would exist under the 2000 plan between the edge of each existing overpass and the decks.  The block size is 400 feet but the decks would only be 370-380 feet.  Also the two "outer" decks would only cover half of each of those gaps.  So between Walnut and Main and between Race and Elm there are only about 200 feet worth of piles sunk in the ground doing nothing at this moment. 

 

The valuable retail/restaurant locations would be at the corners facing the 1-way streets.  For example, the SW corner of 3rd and Walnut will have much more visibility than the SE corner of 3rd and Vine.  The need to exploit that visibility necessitates filling the blocks completely and therefore forming what is effectively and legally a "tunnel", which means adding automated ventilation and probably fire control. 

 

The good news is that this whole thing doesn't have to be built at once.  The bad news is that the most valuable block at the moment, the block between the streetcar tracks, only has piles under half of it since the two outer blocks of the four-block plan only had piles driven under half of those blocks.   

I don't think the small gap will be that big of a deal. On the current Main Street bridge, there is a gap between the sidewalk and the roadway and it's not that noticeable. They build retail on the caps, they will be able to have full frontage on 2nd and 3rd Streets, you just won't be able to enter the retail from the north-south streets' sides.

The problem is as much the sound as it is the visual clutter and disconnect.  Nobody is going to want to sit down and relax in a spot with that wash of sound going all day and night.  Also, intense sunlight could cause a distraction for drivers in the "tunnel", as well as rain and snow that falls in some places but not others. 

 

But again the importance of a retail store or restaurant meeting the sidewalk in an ordinary, attractive fashion is critical to the success of a business.  If a location is a little hard to see or has a cluttered or slightly unusual approach, business will be hurt and whatever entity ends up owning these caps won't be able to command the highest rent possible. 

 

I also think the design of these caps, if they do become retail, residential, office, etc. instead of just parks will need to have an alley bisecting them to allow delivery and garbage trucks, handicapped parking, etc.  So if space is needed for these functions in addition to exhaust fans then the development inevitably takes on a donut block layout, but one that can't use the interior of the block for anything attractive to residents, visitors, etc. like a pool or garden space. 

 

 

Can't these "gaps" between the decks and the sidewalks be spanned with a metal grate?  That might not be ideal, but it's better than an open trench. 

I doubt the decks are going to be the magic bullet many people think they will be. Is access to the riverfront a big problem today? Wasn't aware of that.

Yeah, actually. When you have a several-hundred-feet-wide ROW that's loud and exposed, it's a barrier to human movement. People will cross it, but it's not a pleasant experience and it signals a crossing of a line. A line that would be better if it wasn't there. And four more blocks of buildings is just good for the city regardless.

I honestly think 2nd and 3rd streets are more of a detriment than FWW. I work on 3rd Street and make use of Smale Park almost daily for lunch - every time I cross 2nd and 3rd it feels like someone wants to run me over. The streets are mostly empty during the day outside of rush hour, but their vastness encourages people to speed (especially here, where the posted speed of 25 is often being doubled) and makes pedestrians difficult to spot.

 

Even at rush hour, the only times these streets back up are when there's an accident on any of the highways they feed. As is they're way overbuilt - you could probably eliminate one or even two lanes and still not have congestion. IMO whatever happens with the caps should explore this idea. Simply orange-barrel of a lane for a week and see what happens - I imagine not much.

One reason 2nd and 3rd are as wide as they are is they each built to host light rail to and from KY via the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. That will happen someday.

 

One reason 2nd and 3rd are as wide as they are is they each built to host light rail to and from KY via the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. That will happen someday.

 

Where do you envision that going? Would that make it into Covington as far as Pike St.? Would that make it over to CVG somehow?

It wasn't part of MetroMoves, but the regional plan was to use the CWB Bridge to CVG.

I doubt the decks are going to be the magic bullet many people think they will be. Is access to the riverfront a big problem today? Wasn't aware of that.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming this as a, "magic bullet"

 

It's just there's a huge divide right now, and adding structures over the caps will better connect the city. Right now, The Banks, and actual downtown cincinnati feel like 2 different zones/areas. Yes, they are both downtown, but there's a psychological gap that is there.

I view it as a mini Chicago Millennium Park.  IMO, with calming measures as have been spoken of on Second and Third Streets, it will make an easy transition to the riverfront.

 

Millennium Park was a massive barrier to Lake Michigan from downtown.  Now they do all sorts of activities on it and it is a huge tourist attraction, even though no buildings are on it.  I think it will really help make downtown and the Banks feel one and connected, and also create the neighborhood like feel of the area that creates a sense of place.  I agree with people who say it feels as if it is on an island currently.

 

Not certain if this will work well but here is a before and after of Millennium Park Chicago.

The problem is as much the sound as it is the visual clutter and disconnect.  Nobody is going to want to sit down and relax in a spot with that wash of sound going all day and night.  Also, intense sunlight could cause a distraction for drivers in the "tunnel", as well as rain and snow that falls in some places but not others. 

 

I think you deal with that by embracing FWW instead of hiding from it.  First, coat the bottom of the decks with a sound absorbing material instead of just bare cement.  Then bookend either end of "The Caps" with knockoffs of NYC's Tenth Avenue Square on the High Line:

 

http://triphoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/the-high-line-2.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Line_(New_York_City)#/media/File:Highline_NYC_3705376658_529a375621.jpg

 

You end up with parks that are unique in the region (and make a great lunch spot for office workers), and you do it by giving up the least desirable portions for development, the edges.

Oh yeah, stealing that amphitheater idea from the High Line for FWW would be awesome.

Access the Riverfront from CBD is definitely an issue. I've worked on 3rd street for many years and I don't even consider going over to the Banks for lunch. Usually doesn't even cross my mind because of how separated it feels. I walk much further in CBD to grab lunch. The idea of crossing so many lanes of traffic (not FWW's fault) and walking over a loud highway is not pedestrian friendly at all. Caps with parks or buildings will make it so much better. Somehow reducing the lanes on 2nd and 3rd would also help.

It wasn't part of MetroMoves, but the regional plan was to use the CWB Bridge to CVG.

 

Have there ever been any proposals for light rail tunnels on the Kentucky side? Under Devou Park, or into the side of the plateau where the airport is located?

 

It might be worth it to get to CVG faster instead of shadowing the interstate to pick up a handful of suburban riders.

 

Also an intriguing possibility is workers reverse commuting on light rail from the city to the distribution centers employment cluster around the airport, if you could solve the "last mile" problem by the airport.

Darn. I wrote a big long response and the. Realized it had nothing to do with Fort Washington Way.

Darn. I wrote a big long response and the. Realized it had nothing to do with Fort Washington Way.

 

Do share! Perhaps on the "Beyond the streetcar" thread?

There are two problems with getting rail to the airport. First the ridership at the airport is surprisingly poor. Even when Delta had 700 flights a day there, the estimates were for about 2,000 riders per day. I'm sure it's much less now. Cincinnati is just not a big O&D airport. The other problem is, Kentucky has no means to pay for it -- local option taxes can't be used for transit in KY, which is why the three judge executives have to decide how much TANK gets each year as opposed to SORTA which has (more or less) a dedicated funding source via an early 1970's Charter Amendment.

 

In retrospect, thinking the airport should be the primary destination for the first rail line to Kentucky was flawed. The real ridership is in the communities mostly east of I-71/75 -- Crestview Hills and Erlanger, plus Florence. While it was never talked about publicly, the second thoughts on this, led by Mark Donaghy who was then GM of TANK (and now GM of Dayton) was that KY should have focused more on commuters -- serving them first -- and enter the airport property from the south.

 

Rail will come to NKY someday, but it's going to be more of a pull than even the streetcar was.

Rail will come to NKY someday, but it's going to be more of a pull than even the streetcar was.

 

True, but hopefully streetcar extensions into Covington and Newport will be easier.  They're more connected to Cincinnati than they are to the NKY suburbs.  How something like that gets funded is beyond me, though.

It wasn't part of MetroMoves, but the regional plan was to use the CWB Bridge to CVG.

 

Have there ever been any proposals for light rail tunnels on the Kentucky side? Under Devou Park, or into the side of the plateau where the airport is located?

 

It might be worth it to get to CVG faster instead of shadowing the interstate to pick up a handful of suburban riders.

 

Also an intriguing possibility is workers reverse commuting on light rail from the city to the distribution centers employment cluster around the airport, if you could solve the "last mile" problem by the airport.

 

OKI did propose a subway tunnel under the Ohio River connecting DT Cincinnati and DT Covington back in 1970 or 1971.  This feature is the real linchpin of any big-time transit system for this region and pretty much any bridge scenario would be inferior.  The new light rail bridge parallel to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge that was part of the 1998 I-71 light rail plan was going to be too far out of the way.  But the reason I suspect that was proposed instead of a bridge in line with Race St. (which is where the bridge should be if a tunnel can't be built, although inevitably slower than a tunnel in part because of circuitous approaches) is that the Cincinnati blue bloods don't want the Covington riverfront to compete with DT Cincinnati for Class A office tenants.  The tunnel solves that "problem" if Covington has no subway stations under the riverfront and its DT station is a surface station in the parking lot bordered by 7th, 8th, Washington, and the C&O tracks.  The line would then proceed south paralleling the C&O tracks.

 

 

Until all the construction finishes along 2nd street at The Banks (which will be a while), I like how driving along Fort Washington Way gives suburban drivers perhaps their only glimpses of the changes happening downtown. The first phase of The Banks had such uninspired architecture, but the new GE building looks sharp and I love how its glass curtain wall reflects the skyline of the rest of downtown (especially the PNC Tower). So... as much as I'd like to see caps over FWW, at least for now it serves as a nice "billboard" for downtown.