This is an interesting link to other similar projects, including Austin, Boston, Phoenix, and Portland.

 

http://www.mindspring.com/~tbgray/prch3b.htm

 

 

I think this is the 26 block Portland Proposal.    I love the Round about.

^ Interesting.  That area of Portland could definitely use caps of this nature.  This would be a far more ambitious project than capping FWW, though, because they have a lot of expressway to cover, it isn't a straight-shot like FWW, and it wasn't built recently with future caps in mind like FWW was.  Good luck to them though.  If they can pull it off, it will be a vast improvement over what they have now.

I'm not against having more greenspace.  My concern is that this could become 3 or 4 medium sized, semi-contiguous parks that are disjointed because they are cut off by streets.  Dispersed throughout the city, parks of that size would be great.  But a few of them right next to each other?  I'm not so sure about that.  Why would anyone visit park A over park B right next to it?  And more importantly, why would anyone visit any of these instead of the nearby riverfront park?

 

If we do end up going the park route, I think that some of this could be addressed by having each cap address a specific "want" that is keeping some people from moving downtown.  I love the idea of making one entire cap an enormous dog park.  That would be a tremendous amenity for downtown residents and I could see that getting some heavy usage, while at the same time drawing pet owners voluntarily away from the riverfront park, which is a win for people who don't like dogs.  Another cap could be a kiddy-park with every type of swing, slide, & jungle gym imaginable.  A splashpark for kids would be cool, but I think the riverfront park is already planning that.  Ballfields would be great on another cap.  Maybe not baseball because of space limitations, but soccer/football, sand volleyball, or some (nice looking) basketball or tennis courts might work.  Some space could be devoted for things like cornhole or horseshoes as well.  I could see some interesting leagues & tournaments taking place at a park like this, just like the broomball league on Fountain Square.  I still like the idea of an ornate, possibly victorian-style garden for another cap.  Other ideas could be things that are less interactive and more "for show" like a zen garden or a permanent version of the floral carpet on Fountain Square, the design of which could be changed from year to year.  Obviously, these are just a few quick ideas (some of which are better than others), but I think that if these do become parks, we need to make sure that "greenspace" doesn't equate to just four grassy squares.

If you have three caps, make the left and right ones 4 stories and the middle one greenspace

Only two of the gaps have piles for the whole block, the two nearest to the Elm & Main St. fake bridges have piles only halfway down.  Maybe this could be the site of the grocery store, movie theater, bowling alley, etc. that people have been been whining about. 

^ There you go.  It's all about taking as many "talking points" as possible away from the people who live to bash downtown.

If you have three caps, make the left and right ones 4 stories and the middle one greenspace.

 

I'm with you on this one.  Greenspace comes in different varieties.  The parks along the riverfront are used for different purposes than say Lytle Park, Piatt Park, or Washington Park for that matter.  People need places they can escape for an outdoor lunch that isn't surrounded by concrete/glass.  They need places to relax/unwind.  This would be something different and something that is needed for Downtown residents/workers.

 

With that said, I don't think the full 4-block area needs to be greenspace...but 2 blocks wouldn't be too bad.  I'm just glad this is a conversation piece once again.

I looked back through the thread and didn't see any good shots of exactly what we're talking about, so since I had some time, I went back and screwed around with an aerial I took (from the same flight that brought us ColDay's two brilliant Cincinnati Aerials threads - Part I and Part II).

 

Anyway, here's a before shot:

 

 

...and here's one where I dumped some greenspace in the target slots - please, if I got this wrong, let me know...and if anyone wants to use my photo to screw around making a rendering of what they envision, or to correct my errors, I hereby grant permission to use it, and bend it to your will!

 

 

^Interesting. That is ALOT of greenspace. Dog park it is. ;-)

 

BTW, welcome back Riverviewer. You're been MIA for some time.

Thank you!  Yeah, been awfully busy...but things have lightened up of late, so I should be around again!

 

I just told you guys there aren't piles all the way to the fake cable-stayed bridges, they are only halfway across on those blocks, and look at you all get carried way! 

 

 

and a March 2000 view of the piles:

It's amazing how much better that looks with grass.  Just go ahead and cap the darn thing.  We can sort out what we put on it later.

i totally agree with what someone said earlier in the post that this would be a great spot for a nice grocery store.  Within walking distance to many condo buildings and its on the south side of downtown whereas the north side has the kroger on vine (not ideal, but it can only get better along with the neighborhood.)  If the spot is a bit small, maybe consider a two-story grocery?  Never seen it before myself, but everyone's always complaining that cincinnati has no innovative ideas.

 

I think right now, the greening of the caps is just a rush-job idea to get it covered.  What are some other ideas other than what kind of parks to make them?

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/06/23/daily8.html?jst=b_ln_hl

 

"Also during the meeting, Councilman Jeff Berding noted that Finance Committee Chairman John Cranley has a motion to introduce as part of council's budget deliberations that urges city and county leaders to find the money to build platforms over Fort Washington Way that would help connect the Banks development with the central business district. It could cost as much as $65 million to build three platforms over the entrenched roadway but would add an extra three city blocks of parks or developable space."

 

I didn't realize that this had been talked about to the point of trying to get it into the budget

I believe they covered their bases well when Ft Washington Way was redone some years back.    This was designed and planned WELL for Cincinnati.    Now, with everything coming online (ie: Banks, QCS2, Streetcars, more people, etc.)  all they really have to do is lock the financing in and build it.    I know it's a little more complicated than that, but I think this will go off without a hitch and not take long.

Not that I'm opposed to spending the money for this, as it would certainly be an improvement, but I'd like to know where Cranley proposes we get the $65M from.  I guess this is why he didn't want money from The Banks' TIF to go to the Streetcar.

Not that I'm opposed to spending the money for this, as it would certainly be an improvement, but I'd like to know where Cranley proposes we get the $65M from.  I guess this is why he didn't want money from The Banks' TIF to go to the Streetcar.

 

This project seems to have State/Federal grant money written all over it.  Combine that with some token local contribution and there you have it...caps over FWW.

It would be amazing if this could be accomplished in the next few years.

^I'd lay money on it!! :wink:

This project seems to have State/Federal grant money written all over it.  Combine that with some token local contribution and there you have it...caps over FWW.

 

Every time I think of this project I cant help but get pissed off about all of the federal money (billions upon billions) that was used in Boston's Big Dig.  Boston gets billions to bury their highway under the city and we cant get 50-60 million from the feds to bury ours?

Cranley is not bringing this up to kill the streetcar is he? He wouldn't try to argue that we should use the Banks TIF money that was at the core of the streetcar funding for the caps, would he?

^ I'm beginning to smell a rat!

 

Why is he so dead set against the streetcar??

^Because unlike his personal vehicle,  the seats in the streetcar will not have phone books stacked up on them as to see out the window. :-D

Anyone else noticed that most of the trees along 2nd St. east of Vine have died and been cut down?  There are less than 10 in that stretch that appear healthy.  The sidewalk is lumpy and the Transit Center steps and benches are all deteriorating rapidly.  There are even letters missing from the overhead lettering making for comical mispellings of the streets.  Just waiting for the local media to pick up on this for another round of bashing.     

Anyone else noticed that most of the trees along 2nd St. east of Vine have died and been cut down?  There are less than 10 in that stretch that appear healthy.  The sidewalk is lumpy and the Transit Center steps and benches are all deteriorating rapidly.  There are even letters missing from the overhead lettering making for comical mispellings of the streets.  Just waiting for the local media to pick up on this for another round of bashing.     

 

Yes, I've noticed.  I just figured that no one cared...

That's disappointing!

Anyone else noticed that most of the trees along 2nd St. east of Vine have died and been cut down?  There are less than 10 in that stretch that appear healthy.  The sidewalk is lumpy and the Transit Center steps and benches are all deteriorating rapidly.  There are even letters missing from the overhead lettering making for comical mispellings of the streets.  Just waiting for the local media to pick up on this for another round of bashing.     

 

Yes, I've noticed.  I just figured that no one cared...

 

It is pretty common that cities have money to pay for the initial install/build out of these items, but then doesn't have money to maintain them.  The benches look terrible because they look to have been poorly done and used a bad (maybe cheap) material for our climate.

 

The wayfinding signage is also in terrible shape, and seems to be deteriorating at a similar clip as the benches.  One good thing is the landscaping, over the bridges, is usually in pretty good shape.  I would expect things to be cleaned up as The Banks progresses.

^True.  But it's still kind of sad.  Why even spend the money on trees in the first place if you're just going to let them die?

Fort Washington Way Decking: The original plans and design of Fort Washington Way called for the construction of decks over the interstate between Main Street and Elm Street, allowing significant additional development and connecting the Banks Project to the Central Business District and additional green space in the urban core of Cincinnati. The City, County and corporate sponsors funded $10 million to construct the foundations for the decks in 2001. The decks are estimated to cost approximately $100 million. The Cincinnati Park Board has requested funding via the Ohio Federal Stimulus Initiative website for the Fort Washington Way Decks between Main Street and Walnut Street. The County Commission supports the Cincinnati Park Board request and further requests each of the decks be funded to allow this County/City cooperative development to connect the riverfront with the central business district.

Source: http://www.wlwt.com/download/2009/0225/18794033.pdf

That's good, but I would rather use the stimulus money that Cincinnati receives on a streetcar that will fund the remainder of the downtown-OTR loop. While Fort Washington Way stands as a sunken barrier, it is by no means a defined border between downtown and The Banks.

^This is a request by the Park Board submitted through Hamilton County I believe.

Any news on this idea?

It's dead -- at least for a long time. The city cannot afford to pony up money for a cap that's not necessary in this cash-strapped time.

This project seems to have State/Federal grant money written all over it.  Combine that with some token local contribution and there you have it...caps over FWW.

 

Every time I think of this project I cant help but get pissed off about all of the federal money (billions upon billions) that was used in Boston's Big Dig.  Boston gets billions to bury their highway under the city and we cant get 50-60 million from the feds to bury ours?

Yeah, Cincinnati gets b!tch-slapped again.

 

It's dead -- at least for a long time. The city cannot afford to pony up money for a cap that's not necessary in this cash-strapped time.

Tell that to the Congress! And just think of all the jobs the cap job could create while making a lasting investment in a sustainable urban environment.

 

For everything there is a season.

Easy there, eager beaver!  In time!  Once the Banks is farther along with more of a population.  It wouldn't take long to finish this project off.   

It's dead -- at least for a long time. The city cannot afford to pony up money for a cap that's not necessary in this cash-strapped time.

 

If memory serves me right, it is Hamilton County that is primarily responsible for this.  But in either case, the funding strategy prior was heavily reliant on a grant of some sort that could foot the majority of the bill.  You just never know when something could be written into a capital budget.

I thought it was a city/county bit, but at any rate, I don't think it's a high priority nor should it be. I think that once the Banks is built out and the riverfront park is complete, that a cap could be called for but the economy and the finances need to be back on track.

It's the CRP more than anything else.  Since more than likely the cap will end up supporting green space that will be maintained by Cincinnati Parks, it will have to wait until 100% of the funds are secured for the entire CRP and it is built out.  Once that is complete, the park board will probably shift their focus to the caps if the City or County can secure some capital money.

It's not dead yet.

 

Mallory in DC asking for money

By Peter Urban • [email protected] • February 24, 2010

 

WASHINGTON - Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory is in Washington asking Ohio lawmakers to include $22.6 million in the 2011 federal budget for six city projects that he said are his "top line" priorities for the city. The six projects in order of importance, he said, are:

 

$6.6 million to continue construction of the Central Riverfront park.

 

$5.8 million for design and engineering work for decks over Fort Washington Way. . . .

 

To read more: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100224/NEWS0108/2250301/1055/NEWS/Mallory+in+DC+asking+for+money

^Exaaactly.

That is a lot of funding requested for just design and engineering.

I would imagine that designing and engineering caps over an interstate would cost a fair amount.

Damn, Mallory is a go-getter, isn't he?

There was a similar project being undertaken in Vancouver, Washington that is capping I-5.  I can't find any info about the budget, but I know someone who was on the design competition jury so I'll ask her.

 

If $5.8 million is what design/engineering is costing, then on average that would mean the project costs about $50 million I think. 

 

Here's a link to the Vancouver design: http://www.fortvan.org/pages/Community_Connector

Looks like a pricetag of around $44million for the caps

 

plus another $3-$12 million for the park.  I'm just guessing that the ROI on this project will be under 1 to 1.

 

http://www.bocc.hamilton-co.org/agenda%5CImages.nsf/LUImagesByKey/278~05032000~09:30:00~23-1~23-1.pdf/$FILE/23-1.pdf

 

That is a lot of funding requested for just design and engineering.

5.8 million is about 13% of the construction costs, that's in line with typical fees, maybe a little higher due to the fact that its a little more complex than the typical bridge

 

It depends on what all is being designed... the term "caps" is fluid enough to include the parks that would temporarily occupy the space until Banks completion and downtown land prices justify building on them.

"The Cap" over I-670 in the Short North Area of Columbus cost 8.5 million. Restaurants, coffee shops, and bars fill this area of High St. over I-670. It is a great example of how to remove the obstruction of a highway through an urban area to continue the urban fabric. It is however significantly smaller than putting decking over all of Fort Washington Way. Also, in Cincy it will become a park instead of retail.

It's not dead yet.

 

Mallory in DC asking for money

By Peter Urban • [email protected] • February 24, 2010

 

WASHINGTON - Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory is in Washington asking Ohio lawmakers to include $22.6 million in the 2011 federal budget for six city projects that he said are his "top line" priorities for the city. The six projects in order of importance, he said, are:

 

$6.6 million to continue construction of the Central Riverfront park.

 

$5.8 million for design and engineering work for decks over Fort Washington Way. . . .

 

To read more: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100224/NEWS0108/2250301/1055/NEWS/Mallory+in+DC+asking+for+money

Sweet

Damn, Mallory is a go-getter, isn't he?

 

It remains to be seen how much he will actually go get