The Dallas idea is great and very similar to what we're looking at but many of the features it discussed will be in CRP. I like the idea of a dog park and plenty of art and plazas, but I'll pose the question: What should the caps have that will compliment CRP, The Banks and the stadiums?

 

A dog park isn't a bad idea.  I'd kind of like to see something that will add to the city's beauty though, like gardens or fountains.  This is the city's front door and will be seen in countless videos, photographs, and aerial shots.  It should look as nice as possible.  If demand is there eventually to build on the caps, so be it.

The Dallas idea is great and very similar to what we're looking at but many of the features it discussed will be in CRP. I like the idea of a dog park and plenty of art and plazas, but I'll pose the question: What should the caps have that will compliment CRP, The Banks and the stadiums?

 

That is a great question! I think cap greenspace could compliment office workers looking for a place to sit at lunch, since it would be the closest greenspace to 4th and 5th streets. When you've got maybe 45 minutes to eat, every block counts. (At least it did for me in Chicago.)

I think they'll have enough fountains at the Banks. I'd prefer something people can use.  Whether it's retail or just open green space so someone can toss a ball, throw a frisbee or sit out and enjoy the weather.

What should the caps have that will compliment CRP, The Banks and the stadiums?

 

It seems unlikely there will be buildings, which would probably be best. But my next vote goes for greenspace with some interesting landscaping and benches but most importantly big winding colorful sculptures. If some were climbable, that would be cool too. I remember playing on a huge teeter-totter somewhere in Berlin...something like that could also be nice.

 

Basically, I want large-scale art with some of it maybe interactive. I think this would be a great way to bridge the gap, as it would really be inviting.

^I second that idea.  Some awesome sculptures would be great because despite Cincy being such an artsy town and known for it, we have no collection of standout sculptures really.

Maybe have a replica of the tiara sticking out of the ground. :-)

Do we need another event lawn? CRP will have one of those

 

Maybe a small botanical garden? I love the zoo but I think we miss out by having the 2 combined. It would make for a nice backdrop on pics (weddings, etc)

My vote would be for formal flower gardens.  We have more than enough unprogrammed "green space" around.  For such a tight space that's already strictly framed by the road network, a formal planting arrangement with a few criss-crossing paths would be very appropriate. 

One problem I have with flower gardens is their seasonal nature. In the colder months, they look more like unprogrammed green space.

That's true for any space that's not full of evergreens.  Grass dies, trees are bare, flower beds are empty, that's just the way our climate works.  It's just a matter of doing it right though.  Having some evergreen hedges to create a green framework, and ornamental grasses that may die in winter but still retain their neat shape helps a lot.  The key really isn't as much what kinds of plants there are, but that there's also a good framework of paths, beds, walls, pools, fountains, and benches that make it a good place for people to inhabit in warm and cold weather. 

A building similar to the new glass art museum in Toledo could be interesting. I'd like some glass box buildings that allow for multiple uses, perhaps a greenhouse, a market house, art space - depending on the season and demand.

My vote would be for formal flower gardens. We have more than enough unprogrammed "green space" around. For such a tight space that's already strictly framed by the road network, a formal planting arrangement with a few criss-crossing paths would be very appropriate.  

 

Exactly.

 

I also like the sculpture idea.

That's true for any space that's not full of evergreens. Grass dies, trees are bare, flower beds are empty, that's just the way our climate works. It's just a matter of doing it right though. Having some evergreen hedges to create a green framework, and ornamental grasses that may die in winter but still retain their neat shape helps a lot. The key really isn't as much what kinds of plants there are, but that there's also a good framework of paths, beds, walls, pools, fountains, and benches that make it a good place for people to inhabit in warm and cold weather.

With the sculptures, you don't have to worry so much about the weather. Not that they are mutually exclusive. I just think it may be hard to make evergreens seem inviting through all the seasons.

They should move the Government Square bus depot there.

The problem with sculptures is that they will almost certainly suck. 

The problem with sculptures is that they will almost certainly suck.

Haha, you're probably right. If they were nice, though, it would be a really great idea.

 

I guess it depends mostly on who you get to design them.

They should move the Government Square bus depot there.

 

I like that because it puts the bus depot right next to the RTC.  But what do you do with Government Square after you move the buses?

There's any number of things you could do with it, but I would leave it as a public space without programming, to differentiate it from FS.  Also, it would probably be oneof the most prominent Streetcar stops.

I like that [moving Metro from Government Square] because it puts the bus depot right next to the RTC.

 

And also the massive parking garages right across the street, and the southern end of the Streetcar line (why it is currently planned to go one block south of 2nd Street I don't understand).  Buses have a great approach to the area from both 71 and 75.  Once you get the Streetcar up and running you might be able to eliminate most buses from running through downtown and OTR as well.  Move TANK (and maybe even Megabus) there from 4th Street.  Hell, you might even want to see if Greyhound will move to the RTC from their present site.  You could even add direct non-stop and separately marked buses between FWW and UT when the rail comes there, as well as a direct, no stop bus to the Airport if it is warranted.

That's sounds like rational transit planning.

I like that [moving Metro from Government Square] because it puts the bus depot right next to the RTC.

 

And also the massive parking garages right across the street, and the southern end of the Streetcar line (why it is currently planned to go one block south of 2nd Street I don't understand). Buses have a great approach to the area from both 71 and 75. Once you get the Streetcar up and running you might be able to eliminate most buses from running through downtown and OTR as well. Move TANK (and maybe even Megabus) there from 4th Street. Hell, you might even want to see if Greyhound will move to the RTC from their present site. You could even add direct non-stop and separately marked buses between FWW and UT when the rail comes there, as well as a direct, no stop bus to the Airport if it is warranted.

 

That almost makes too much sense.

There has been discussion around here in the past on moving Greyhound to RTC. It simply wasn't designed for that kind of operation, there's not enough room.

If the Riverfront Transit Center became the hub for Greyhound it would easily become the nicest Greyhound station in the country, and most likely be in the nicest location.

I mentioned it here: Cincinnati: Pendleton: Broadway Commons

 

I'm assuming by space your referring to space for offices, ticketing, waiting area, etc. as there are plenty of bus bays. Living close to the Greyhound station, I've never seen more than 6 buses there at once, one of those being a parked Mega Bus.

 

My idea was using a portion of The Banks garage build out for the offices, ticketing, waiting area, etc. See for reference the RTC Security and CRG Parking Office.  I'm not a planner... just throwing out ideas.

 

Yes, it probably would be the nicest Greyhound station in the country. But hey, Cincinnati is the US headquarters for it's parent company.

There would also be the question of how to lease the RTC to Greyhound, and what would come of that agreement if SORTA actually decided to utilize it for more than just buses.

IMO, the Greyhound station would be better off over by Union Terminal, which would allow Greyhound buses to serve as feeders to 3C and Amtrak rail service. I'd ideally like to see RTC used for light rail.

Agree 100% on the light rail. With the size of the RTC, I would think they could co-exist...

 

As for relocating it to UT, I guess I'm not sold on people taking Greyhound only to catch a 3C/Amtrak train elsewhere. With the RTC though, I see access to long term parking, Streetcar, Light Rail (eventually), hotels, Government Square.  Same with Megabus.

 

 

I don't think RTC is wide enough to accommodate Greyhound and light rail. For light rail or rapid transit, you're looking at two trackways at 12 feet each, plus two side platforms of about 20 feet each, minimum. (Due to the RTC's configuration, a single center platform wouldn't be very feasible.) That's a minimum of 64 feet of width required just for light rail, which would fit nicely within the RTC's space but not leave room for much else.

 

Putting Greyhound over by CUT -- in addition to allowing for easy transfers to rail -- allows for a bus depot / maintenance / fueling facility to be nearby (which makes operations easier for Greyhound), and keeps the "undesirable" element usually associated with Greyhound bus stations away from the prime downtown areas.

I remember a few weeks ago Mallory visited Washington to talk about the cap project. Any news on the money issue or what happened

Undesirable element? What do you mean?

^ Have you ever actually been to a Greyhound bus station?

He either meant bus exhaust fumes or dirty people lol.

^ Have you ever actually been to a Greyhound bus station?

Yes i have. I saw hardworking American's there.

I can't recall the last time I saw anyone that appeared pleasant at a Greyhound station. MegaBus? Yes. Amtrak? Yes. Greyhound? Never.

I can't recall the last time I saw anyone that appeared pleasant at a Greyhound station. MegaBus? Yes. Amtrak? Yes. Greyhound? Never.

^ Im sure some people can say the same at what they see in malls. Maybe they think rich people are undesirable.

^ You guys have moved the topic to a social discussion.

 

 

... BTW, went to the Reds game last night. After seeing everything come together, I don't think we really have an option when it comes to capping FWW. The more developed that area gets, the more ridiculous this big expressway looks. I think 3rd St.'s vitality depends on the cap.

On topic por favor.

Go Reds!

I actually think people will ignore the fact of no caps.  The Banks will have such a big draw that walking over the highway won't be a huge deal at all.  For all we know, that area could fill up with concession stands instead. 

BUILD THE CAPS!!! THEY'LL MAKE A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.  :clap:

 

We need to think about whose STATUES should be erected on these new caps/parks.

 

Taft?    Rutherford B. Hayes? (strong cincinnati connection -wife & kids born/buried here). 

 

Neil Armstrong?  (taught @UC, currently lives in Indian Hill!)

 

Aaron Pryor?    Ezzard Charles?  Roger Staubach?    Pete Rose?    After all, this is the sports district...

I actually think people will ignore the fact of no caps. The Banks will have such a big draw that walking over the highway won't be a huge deal at all. For all we know, that area could fill up with concession stands instead.

 

Larry Flynt, man I'm loving your post ... keep it going ...

 

Hemroid, the problem is this ... EX:

 

When I was leaving the Reds game the other night (keeping in mind, I'm a Downtowner - not a suburbanite), we were all trying to cross the 2nd-3rd St. vicinity like we were all trying to cross the Gaza Strip. The only difference between that scenario and any other ... there were a LOT MORE pedestrians VS. any other time of the day ... meaning we outnumbered the cars and if their light turned green and there's still 200 people crossing the road - then the cars will wait.

 

Crossing those streets just be an after thought.

 

By capping, a couple of things could/will happen:

 

A) with heavy pedestrian traffic, drivers are more cautious.

B) with a cap, we are ABLE to build a pedestrian bridge, maybe two?

 

 

Oh trust me I'm all for the caps.  I just meant not having them for the immediate future;)

Statues are an interesting idea. I still prefer the (tall, colorful) sculptures idea. Both run the risk of them looking crappy.

hahaha....oh.... Dear Lord!!........

UrbanCincy writer David Ben had the first part of a four part series on the reconstruction of Fort Washington Way published this week.  In his introductory post he mentioned that the pilings that were installed to support the caps can support the weight of buildings approximately four stories in height.

 

Read the full post here:

http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/07/reconstruction-of-fort-washington-way-redefined-cincinnatis-urban-core/

^Great article.  I can't emphasize enough (really, I can't.  It's pretty much all I've been saying on this thread for some time now) how perfect at least part of these capped four blocks would be for a relocated Government Square Metro hub to interface with both the current termination of the proposed streetcar (There's really no reason for it to penetrate south of 2nd Street), the soon to be completed massive parking garage at the Banks, and the Riverfront Transit Center.

Well, the reason Government Square is where it is (and has been since the days of horsecars), is because it's right in the heart of downtown.  Putting the city's major transit hub at the edge of downtown doesn't make much sense. 

^I'm not sure that two blocks makes that much difference, particularly when the streetcar will be going past both areas.  Particularly if you are taking an express bus downtown, quick entry and exit from the highway should be a high priority.

 

But ultimately the goal of these various projects such as the Banks, the Streetcar and the Riverfront Park is to promote density downtown.  Having a specific area where you can access the largest parking zone, buses, the streetcar and light rail (potentially in the RTC) should be a priority.

I think the presence of the streetcar and potentially light rail in that area is great, and the fact that the streetcar runs by Government Square IS important.  Still, the people who take the bus to downtown want to be put at the most central place possible.  It may not matter a whole lot for those bus routes that take a north-south routing through downtown, but the person taking an east-west bus who needs to get to the County Courthouse, City Hall, or anything up near Court Street, Central Parkway, etc., would certainly balk at an extra 2+ blocks, especially for the morning walk up the hill between 3rd and 4th Streets.