I'd be interested in the answer to this too.  If this is what happened this is a form of "steering by nonparticipation".  I didn't know landlords can refuse to accept vouchers. 

 

You basically go through hell to even get qualified to rent out to section 8 tenants. If your property is a dump but meets their qualifications, it can be a great investment since you're guaranteed rent money from the gov't. Even if gov't required you to rent out to section 8, you get other offers from prospective renters so I suppose you could just lie and say the non-section 8 renter was more qualified for whatever reason.

 

I believe the gov't paid 700 or 800 dollars of the 1000 or 1100/month rent my mom collected from our section 8 renter but if they choose a property that's only say...500 a month, they're able to pocket the extra 200-300 a month, so there is an incentive to stay in the already ran-down ghetto.

^

thanks for the detail.  The reason I am curious about this and what is happening in Cincinnati is that the Dayton area is entering into the same process, where the public housing is going to be torn down and the residents vouchered out.

 

I'd be interested in the answer to this too.  If this is what happened this is a form of "steering by nonparticipation".  I didn't know landlords can refuse to accept vouchers. 

 

You basically go through hell to even get qualified to rent out to section 8 tenants. If your property is a dump but meets their qualifications, it can be a great investment since you're guaranteed rent money from the gov't. Even if gov't required you to rent out to section 8, you get other offers from prospective renters so I suppose you could just lie and say the non-section 8 renter was more qualified for whatever reason.

 

I believe the gov't paid 700 or 800 dollars of the 1000 or 1100/month rent my mom collected from our section 8 renter but if they choose a property that's only say...500 a month, they're able to pocket the extra 200-300 a month, so there is an incentive to stay in the already ran-down ghetto.

 

That is the problem with public assistance in America. That SCREAMS of fraud. How can we let people take advantage of the system that way??

^ It's like asking: Why do we allow people to stay on welfare when some are more than able to work? Or stay on it longer than the intended time?

 

Greed.

It was a rhetorical question. The whole "entitlements" system needs complete reform. Too many people are blood-sucking and greedy. It irritates me to no end when I look at my paycheck every two weeks and see the amount of taxes that are taken out knowing where a good amount of it is going.

 

Some people are just lazy and find it easier to live off the system. That will never change. You can't change people. But you can change the system.

^ It's like asking: Why do we allow people to stay on welfare when some are more than able to work? Or stay on it longer than the intended time?

 

Greed.

 

and lazyness.

^ It's like asking: Why do we allow people to stay on welfare when some are more than able to work? Or stay on it longer than the intended time?

 

Greed.

 

and lazyness.

Don't be PC...those types of people are just trifflin'!

My biggest fear for the city is that people like me want be drawn to this place.  I'm firmly international/multicultural in my perspective and I love diversity.  Great assets here but just need a little more to put it together, I'll give the city a chance but will others.

It seems to me that there are two reasons why some of the west side neighborhoods are supposedly "declining."  First, some bad element came, and the good element left, as in the people who had pride and cared about the neighborhood.  I know quite a few people who have moved out of Westwood.  THese same people were perfectly content until they suddenly saw "strange" people walking around the neighborhoods (their words, not mine.  They mention streets that are now scary.  Now, it's been four years since I've lived on the west side, but I don't notice what makes these particular streets scary and so on.  I did not pick up any racial undertones in the posts by jessehallum and dmerkow, but I wonder if racism has played a role in this.  I do wonder if some people who moved did so because a black person moved on their street which used to be all white.  If this is the case, that is really sad.  I also think some people moved because they wanted the bigger house with the bigger yard, and moving out further is the trendy thing to do.

 

Maybe this is why I'm touchy about this issue...because I have heard many westsiders talk about this very issue and almost all of the time it is backed up with racial stereotypes and prejudices.  When I hear stories about people not wanting to sell their home to a black family, because they don't want to upset their friends/neighbors about starting that neighborhood down "that slippery slope"...it quite frankly makes me sick.

 

I have heard many people discuss why they have moved from a particular area on the westside to another...and have directly cited the fact that "blacks were moving in."  Perception and ill-conceived prejudices have hurt the westside of Cincinnati more than anything over the years.

 

BTW, Westwood has many crimes (shear #'s), but you must take into account that they are the largest neighborhood in the city as well.  Per capita crime numbers are most useful.

Uh oh...the government assistance can of worms has been opened.

 

 

Here's a scenario...say you're a single mother of 2 and make $100 a month (easy numbers)...and you're barely scraping by WITH government aid.  This is a completely reasonable use of 'the system'...you have a job, work part time so that you can raise your own children (you know raise decent human beings...another thing the poor are accused of not doing) and you struggle to get by.

 

So you decide to go out and get a full-time job...presto magico, you're assistance money gets cut, you now have to pay for child care, and for increased travel expenses to/from work.  All for another $50 a month...now you're actually in a worse position than you were when you were working part-time.  Your children are being raised by strangers, you have less in savings, and have less free/personal time.  But on the bright side, the rest of society can look at you as a productive member.

 

My point?  The system is screwed up...and it is wrong to criticize those who are currently subjected using that failed system.

I'm not criticizing all the people on the system. I'm criticizing the system and those who abuse it.

Every government system is abused...corruption is not correlated with income and/or race.  See: Enron for the most obvious and obnoxious example

That doesn't make it right and that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix it. In my opinion, apathy about this type of thing=approval

That doesn't make it right and that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix it. In my opinion, apathy about this type of thing=approval

 

Exactly...I don't approve of the rich taking advantage of 'the system' nor do I approve of the poor taking advantage of 'the system'.  It just seems to come across like this is only an issue with poor people...it's not poor people, but rather bad people (rich and poor).

I'd like to point out how much it disturbs me that the extremely wealthy can make 100x as much money as the avereage person for only having a slight advantage over the general population made by such large markets that exist. The celebrity machine disgusts me. Most of America admires Donald Trumps (who had the largest private debt in history until his dad died and saved his ass with an inheritance). I don't like the fact that people take advantage of the government through welfare when they could be applying themselves but it is just one issue and it doesn't speak for every welfare recipient. One major problem in America is that there are so many convicted felons, and unless you are one, or know them, you don't understand how unbelievably hard it is to get a job, especially a high paying job.

^ Maybe they shouldn't be a felon in the first place. I know what you are saying but why should they get a job at Ford making 80-120k than someone who's never had been in prison or the system only able to get 12-25k jobs.

I didn't say make them investment bankers and doctors. I'm saying jobs in general. If someone can't get a job because they're a felon, its basically encouraging them to do more things illegal, which just perpetuates the problem.

I didn't say make them investment bankers and doctors. I'm saying jobs in general. If someone can't get a job because they're a felon, its basically encouraging them to do more things illegal, which just perpetuates the problem.

 

Now you're singing my tune.  :-D

Maybe this is why I'm touchy about this issue...because I have heard many westsiders talk about this very issue and almost all of the time it is backed up with racial stereotypes and prejudices.  When I hear stories about people not wanting to sell their home to a black family, because they don't want to upset their friends/neighbors about starting that neighborhood down "that slippery slope"...it quite frankly makes me sick.

 

I have heard many people discuss why they have moved from a particular area on the westside to another...and have directly cited the fact that "blacks were moving in."  Perception and ill-conceived prejudices have hurt the westside of Cincinnati more than anything over the years.

 

My mom and I had a conversation about Westwood a while back.  I had asked her what happened, and why were people telling me that certain streets are becoming scary.  She said that she knew some people that had moved because some blacks were starting to move in.  That is very sad. 

 

When my husband and I bought our house in Pleasant Ridge, our street was probably 50/50 black and white.  We had several people ask us why we would buy in a neighborhood like that.  :(  Very, very sad.

Maybe this is why I'm touchy about this issue...because I have heard many westsiders talk about this very issue and almost all of the time it is backed up with racial stereotypes and prejudices.  When I hear stories about people not wanting to sell their home to a black family, because they don't want to upset their friends/neighbors about starting that neighborhood down "that slippery slope"...it quite frankly makes me sick.

 

With the exception of some of the older people and a few particularly uneducated ones, nobody really seems to care about skin color any more.  What people do care about is culture.

 

Maple Heights, where I'm originally from, has gone from overwhelmingly white to about 50-50 during the last decade. The east side "changed" first, then the northwest side.  The schools are now probably 75-80% black, as many of the white residents are elderly.

 

A few years ago, there started to be problems with kids walking in the streets and refusing to move for cars.  Some went as far as to intimidate drivers who dared beep their horns.  While this didn't happen nearly as often as was rumored, it did happen on several different occasions.  There ended up being a rather severe police crackdown, which some people in turn called "racist" because the kids doing it were for the most part black.  IMO, that criticism did more harm than the actions themselves.

 

There's also the fact that the local papers have "police blotters" and virtually all the crime in the city seems to take place on the east side. 

 

On the other side, it's completely normal for black residents to resent being viewed with suspicion "until proven normal".  Stuff like that is remembered, and can be so out of proportion to how often it happens.  But so is intimidation, particularly of elderly people.

 

What has to happen is some formation of common ground, and a lot of it has to come from people willing to tell their "own kind" when they are just plain wrong.  That applies to both racist attitudes, and to stereotypical behavior portrayed as maintaining cultural identity, or "keeping it real".

Damn, E Rocc, you actually said something I agree with.  Good post!

I don't doubt that race is in play in what's going on in Price Hill and Westwood. Just because that is a contributing factor, that doesn't mean that we should deny the general trend of the largest neighborhood in the city.

As someone in grew up in one of the few integrated neighborhoods and worked for the city for many years in recreation, I think that Cincinnati as a whole would be much better off with widespread integration across the city and region. However, the way to integrate a city is not to send folks from public housing into barely stable communities and expect those on the receiving end to be happy.

If you read the history of public housing, it was often a conscious decision to warehouse the poor. Unfortunately it turned out to be a miserable environment and exacerbated problems for those who had to live there. Those problems don't suddenly go away when the warehouse is eliminated.

I'll admit that I think it more important to defend middle-class family neighborhoods more so than others, because that should be the strength and future of any city. Ideally those neighborhoods are thoroughly integrated with vibrant private and public schools.

Westwood has it's rough streets but as a whole is in pretty descent shape.  I don't think things are as bad as people or media portray them to be.   I live and commute from there every day.    The neighborhood overall is in fair condition.  McHenry and Harrison have seen betters days though.   Apartments and rental properties are what is the thorn in the side for Westwood and the entire west side for that matter.   ABSCENTEE LANDLORDS ARE AND HAVE BEEN A GROWING PROBLEM!   

 

typing in red is hard on the eyes.

Seeing as how there are womenfires all over the United States:

 

Well, this conversation has turned civil and reasonable!  I love this board! :-D  I may have been a bit strong in my previous posts.  I know that this is a sensitive issue. 

 

White Flight is unfortunate.  I too have heard people talk about 'the blacks' moving in.  Ignorant and fearful people make me angry.  They perpetuate the suburban sprawl.  Thank God that racist attitudes are dying a little bit with each passing year.  That being said, white flight transcends racism at some level.  For instance, homeowners in Price Hill that did not sell their houses  5-8 years ago, in many cases, have seen market value decline (sometimes drastically).  I attribute this more to the flood of section 8 housing than of 'the blacks' that use the system.  Unfortunately, the issue becomes a matter of common sense and economics when even reasonable people get caught in the 'slippery slope'.

 

I remain optimistic about Westwood.  Many areas of the neighborhood are well-maintained.  Many houses remain stunningly beautiful.  Citizen Participation, which seldom has been a  problem with west-side neighborhood, remains high.  Vouchers have been capped in the neighborhood and the current mix should be sustainable. 

 

Back to the topic of the thread...

 

My biggest concern for Cincinnati is that Northern Kentucky developments will outpace Cincinnati's developments.  They always get the cool stuff.  If the city doesn't act fast, Newport will surely build the banks before we can.  Next thing you know, Covington will build a rehabbed Over-The-Rhine complete with streetcars. :drunk: :laugh:

 

From the mouth of Chris Smitherman:

 

"If it was about light rail, we'd (NAACP) be backing it"

"You have my word, we will get the signatures"

"We're watching the blogs"

 

Signatures:

 

 

"2000 shy as he sits there"

"Turned in 475 yesterday"

"Running at a 75% validity rate"

 

 

Several target locations this weekend:

Little Flower in Mt. Airy (Friday night)

St Theresa in Price Hill (all weekend)

St Al's in Sayler park (all weekend)

Ferguseon Antique Mall (Price Hill shop that has petitions)

 

Doc will be out Tuesday night w/Chris Smitherman if needed

 

Wait What!>? They're not gonna be at St. Xavier downtown or Immaculata in Mt. Adams this weekend!?  I guess their putting their full stock in the west side- an area that would greatly benefit from increased revenues caused by the streetcar-

The west side needs investment and more attention from the city-

the city needs more revenue to invest in the west side-

the streetcar brings that increased revenue.

 

The west side has a long history of shooting itself in the foot. Perhaps in cries for attention, since it is so often ignored. It's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg thing, where the west side looks outward at the rest of the city, so the city looks outward at the west side like it is not as much a part of the city as other parts.

 

The streetcar is a good example: they see it as helping other parts of the city, so they oppose it. So other parts of the city pass over helping the west side.

 

As someone whose life in Cincinnati has always been on the central spine, I think the east side-west side thing is overhyped. The real dichotomy is west side and not-west side. Ironically, I think if the west side were willing to play ball, the east side would be the part of the city receiving the most ire. It's much more natural for the masses to thumb their nose at the wealthy.

 

While the east side is famous for its NIMBYism, the west side seems to adhere to NIYBYism. (Not in your backyard)

 

I think the west side is going through growing pains right now, which the rest of the city is much further along with. Only recently has white flight hit the west side, and the west side is now experiencing unprecedented diversity. I think the key to the west side's potential leg-up in the game is the influx of Latinos, who were not a factor in the 50's-60's demographic shift in the rest of the city. That and a now more-upwardly-mobile black population. West siders were trying to preserve an obsolete way of life. An inward-looking culture cannot be competitive in a global world. But now the outside world has come to the west side, in the form of an influx of minority residents.

 

Many west siders are resentful of the subsidized housing which could be considered to be the dam-breaker leading to the infiltration of their communities. There is no doubt the west side, a stalwart in the 50's-60's demographic shift, is now suffering from the early symptoms which has led to so much urban decay in other parts of the city. Income-per-capita is on the downswing, crime is on the upswing. As we see the core urban neighborhoods finally beginning to recover from decades of devastation, it's a big open question how long it might take for the west side to go through a similar recovery process.

 

The urban core has learned a thing or two in its troubled times, and broad support of the streetcar plan is an obvious symbol of these lessons learned. It's no wonder the stalwart west siders have not learned these lessons yet, and do not see value in things like the streetcar. They've only been in the classroom for a generation at best. Let's hope with an influx of diversity (and an outpouring of outmoded ideas and the people who perpetuate them) the west side can accelerate the maturing process, not hit rock bottom like other parts of the city have, and begin to support healthy projects like the streetcar for the good of the west side and the rest of the city.

 

I don't mean to be down on west siders, but I think it's clear there are problems/issues and this is my stab at an explanation.

Back to the topic of the thread...

 

My biggest concern for Cincinnati is that Northern Kentucky developments will outpace Cincinnati's developments.  They always get the cool stuff.  If the city doesn't act fast, Newport will surely build the banks before we can.  Next thing you know, Covington will build a rehabbed Over-The-Rhine complete with streetcars. :drunk: :laugh:

 

 

Wow, this post is hilarious. But it shows how unpredictable and uncertain the progress of the past four years was. The concern seems laughable now! (Or was it meant to be a joke at the time? The emoticons make me wonder.)

Well, I suppose there was a lot of buzz about the Ascent, Mainstrasse, Hofbrau and all that. And the retail at NotL hadn't died off yet nor had the economy completely gone in the crapper.

Really appreciated your provocative #77 (8-5) post, natininja--I only wish that we could both live to see a large migration of people into the entire western half of Cincinnati and Hamilton County.  Such a large and scenic piece of our metro area to be so underutilized.  Yes, I'm aware that many citizens wish to maintain what they consider the natural beauty (and rural aspect) of this swath of semi-countryside, but I envision it as populated and busy as any of our northeastern suburbs.  And also under a metro management where the city-county governments are ONE. (Too much to hope for in our lifetimes, eh?)  Lastly, I envision the rolling hills/valleys of western Hamilton Co. to become the backdrop to some of the most spectacular housing developments in the entire region.  Yes, I accept that the subsoil may not allow for such massive projects, but would it be totally impossible?  Picture a well-developed metropolitan Cincinnati that extends from Batavia/Mt.Orab in the east to Harrison/Ross in the west.  And an MSA (Cincy-Dayton-NKY included) of app. 4.5 million.  An impossible dream?  I think not.

^ I used to think that it was only a matter of time until the Cincinnati metro reached 10 million, New York City reached 100 million, and the world population reached 100 billion.

 

The City of Cincinnati peaked in 1955, and Hamilton County peaked in 1970. The U.S. Census projects that Ohio's population will peak in 2018 at only slightly higher than it is now, and World Health Oranization demographers project that world population will peak at around 9 billion in the next century or two.

 

I don't think that the Cincinnati Metro is going to gain any significant population, unless maybe all the Clevelanders move to Cincinnati.  :-D

 

For now, it's a zero-sum game, or nearly so. Any gain in one neighborhood is a loss in another.

Wider, faster roads.

My biggest concern for Cleveland is any sort of dramatic economic downturn (like $100 a barrell oil) that will scrap all of the plans for the city that are on the drawing board.

 

Then for the next 50 years Clevelanders would talk about the fabulous plans of long ago.....

Kinda like what happened in the depression.

 

Not that I am a wet blanket, but oil hit $60 a barrell today....not good

 

 

 

Just bumping up one of the first responses from six years ago.

^ Good one!

 

I'm going to have to look through this thread, there are some real gems.

natininja, while I will agree with most of what you said, I have visions more along the lines of subocincy.  The diversity is a good thing but concentrating the poor is an obvious failure wherever it happens. 

 

Keep in mind, Price Hill was built around a streetcar.  Their were no interstates built to divide the neighborhoods.  Their is not a doubt in my mind that a streetcar is what would bring Price Hill back from the brink.  Westsiders just have to be a part of it for them to support anything like this.  Some of the older grumpy ones, you'll never get through to but I see the westside clammering for a route once OTR is operational. 

 

The untapped potential in some of the older neighborhoods is mind blowing especially ones with views from high up on the hills looking into the basin.  Most of the housing stock is rock solid well built homes, but unfortunately many are being neglected similar to what happened in OTR.  The city could stand to benefit immensely via increased population and tax revenue if their ever was a push to live in sustainable, walkable, first generation burbs such as P-Hill within a 3-5 mile distance from fountain square.  Westwood and Price Hill collectively hold 70+ thousand people and has plenty of room to add and renovate to that number.  They need help though from the same ills that fell on our beloved OTR.     

 

They essentially lack a plan.  And I'm not talking about the Incline District.  That's a start.    They lack a comprehensive plan to repopulate the entire core of the westside of the city like the Warsaw, Glenway, and W 8th business corridors.  RE-build the neighborhood around the very thing that built it in the first place.   

 

I want a Westside Streetcar!!  :)