April 13, 20178 yr I think since the issue was really United's poor planning they should have offered more money for people to volunteer. The free market solution here is fr United to compensate appropriately based on what passengers would accept. They shouldn't use state authority to enforce civil matters.
April 13, 20178 yr United sucks, and they'll definitely face a huge lawsuit over this, and the doctor should collect big time over the bullshit they put him through. That said, this doctor seems like a bit of a head case. His scream when they first tried to remove him was...ridiculous and childish. Yeah it sucks you got chosen to be bumped from the flight. I'd be extremely pissed, might let a few F bombs fly, and would certainly try to get some major compensation from the airline for the inconvenience. But if a cop tells you to get off the plane, you should get off. To throw a tantrum and make the rest of the passengers see that mess is absurd. What really bothers me, though, is that the guy ran back on the plane after being removed! Sorry bro, that's a major NO in the post 9-11 world we live in. His a$$ should have been arrested for that. Nothing about the situation was handled correctly by the police or airline, but the passenger is not without fault. And I am definitely not one of those "do whatever you're told" types, lest you all get the wrong idea. I just know there are mature ways to handle things, and this was not one of them.
April 13, 20178 yr Complain about what, though? I think this article sums up the situation well: http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/ Fault here lies with: United for not having as many seats as they sold, although it wasn’t because they sold more seats than the plane held, it was because their operation became a mess and they needed to salvage that to inconvenience the fewest passengers overall. It wasn’t “to maximize their profits” although they certainly wanted to limit their losses by limiting passenger inconvenience. The passenger who should have gotten off the plane when ordered to do so. It sucked for him and wasn’t his fault, but refusing airline and police instructions unless designed to provoke a violent response for media attention to promote a civil rights cause is a bad idea. The Chicago Aviation Police shouldn’t have responded with the force they did. They’re the most to blame. If they hadn’t used as much force this whole thing would never even have been a story. Really the only issue here, IMO, is that the police shouldn't have been so rough with the guy. Even if someone is resisting, if they aren't actually a real threat it should be possible to get them into cuffs and off of an airplane without bloodying them up. I agree with lots of this, but there was some "maximize profits" here too. Regardless of the law and contract of carriage, the airline very likely could have successfully bribed some volunteers from the plane had they offered more and had they done so before the passengers were seated. I sort of hate the legalistic defense that the pilot's wife blog offers. Just because the airline didn't violate the law or even their contract of carriage (which isn't exactly negotiated), doesn't mean they weren't stingy jerks. That blogger wants us to think the legal minimum dictates corporate policy rather than just setting a floor.
April 13, 20178 yr United sucks, and they'll definitely face a huge lawsuit over this, and the doctor should collect big time over the bullshit they put him through. That said, this doctor seems like a bit of a head case. His scream when they first tried to remove him was...ridiculous and childish. Yeah it sucks you got chosen to be bumped from the flight. I'd be extremely pissed, might let a few F bombs fly, and would certainly try to get some major compensation from the airline for the inconvenience. But if a cop tells you to get off the plane, you should get off. To throw a tantrum and make the rest of the passengers see that mess is absurd. What really bothers me, though, is that the guy ran back on the street plane after being removed! Sorry bro, that's a major NO in the post 9-11 world we live in. His a$$ should have been arrested for that. Nothing about the situation was handled correctly by he police or airline, but the passenger is not without fault. And I am definitely not one of those "do whatever you're told" types, lest you all get the wrong idea. I just know there are mature ways to handle things, and this was not one of them. He did the right thing. If he just sheepishly obeyed, there'd be no story and UA would be emboldened in their shi&*(&^y treatment of passengers and bizzarely poor customer service decisions. I've personally seen it many times and try to avoid UA when I can. The cops work the PUBLIC---not for any one airline. Cops know some things--like criminal law things--like when one person on the street has a gun pointed at another. But they don't necessarily know non-criminal things. I've had cops try to tell me some civil law things that were absolutely not true.
April 13, 20178 yr The facts of the case: 1) United almost certainly had the right to force him off of the plane for any reason they see fit. I'm sure the terms and conditions of your ticket would say that, and they likely only had to reimburse him for his flight, and maybe give him a hotel room. It doesn't matter if the passenger was seeing his dying wife and could only make it there by catching this flight. United had the right to tell him to leave. 2) The officers had the right to remove the passenger - by force if necessary. I believe he would considered trespassing if he was instructed to leave the plane by the United crew and he refused. That being said, here are my observations: 1) The officers likely used excessive force in this case, and should pay the brunt of any damages paid out for the injury the passenger suffered. I don't know if they ever officially told him he was under arrest or that he was violating the law, but they should have. 2) United really needs to rethink how they deal with overbooked flights. I personally have no problem with airlines overbooking a flight (it brings costs down, it maximizes the efficiency of flying, pollutes less, etc). But once you're physically on the plane, they should not forcibly remove anyone. They should be able to tell you that you can't board, but they shouldn't be able to remove you from the plane because they are overbooked/need their crew to get somewhere. If they were not legally able to offer anyone more money to voluntarily give up a seat, they should have let everyone stay on the plane and found another way to get the crew to Louisville. I've heard they can take another company's airline for pennies on the dollar if needed, so they should have looked for flights on other airlines to try to shuttle them around. 3) I'm convinced almost every airline is the same. Just like banks, cable/internet providers, etc. Everyone swears off of a certain brand/company, but they are all the same. There are probably a few exceptions, but not enough to exclusively use companies that are awesome. Other people have identically bad experiences with the company you moved to. Not saying this situation has happened on another airline (with the forcible removal and hospitalization). But I'm positive people get bumped from planes on other airlines because a crew needs to get somewhere and they've overbooked. It just never reached this level of attention because no one has ever been hospitalized for refusing to leave.
April 14, 20178 yr " If they were not legally able to offer anyone more money to voluntarily give up a seat..." Of course they could---If they offered $50,000 they'd have 200 takers. If they offer $5, they'd have none. Clearly somewhere in between---maybe around $1100-$1500 they would have gotten one more volunteer. As far as i know, the government does not set a cap on this---why would they? "I'm convinced almost every airline is the same." No way. Amongst the US legacies--UA, AA, and DL--UA is by far the worst when it comes to dealing with customers and customer-facing policies. I do fly UA sometimes--as routes and schedules dictate. But when I have a choice, I will always fly another carrier and pay a little more to do so if need be.
April 14, 20178 yr Why are people still talking about this? It's not interesting. Jake hath spoken! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 14, 20178 yr " If they were not legally able to offer anyone more money to voluntarily give up a seat..." Of course they could---If they offered $50,000 they'd have 200 takers. If they offer $5, they'd have none. Clearly somewhere in between---maybe around $1100-$1500 they would have gotten one more volunteer. As far as i know, the government does not set a cap on this---why would they? "I'm convinced almost every airline is the same." No way. Amongst the US legacies--UA, AA, and DL--UA is by far the worst when it comes to dealing with customers and customer-facing policies. I do fly UA sometimes--as routes and schedules dictate. But when I have a choice, I will always fly another carrier and pay a little more to do so if need be. And better yet, the airlines give these vouchers out, but many people never use them or forget about them. Plus, they are usually subject to blackout dates and restrictions. In the end, it would have cost United WAY LESS to offer up bigger vouchers, especially now that they are compensating the entire flight (on top of lawsuits and bad PR).
April 28, 20178 yr Quote from United in an email they recently sent to status members: "That's why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board -- except in matters of safety or security."
December 14, 20177 yr The Trump administration continues to look out for the little guy.... https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/airlines-no-longer-required-to-disclose-baggage-fees.html?utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=
December 14, 20177 yr Ugh. At the very least it's extremely likely that airlines won't change how they disclose those fees because there would be major backlash from customers if they were suddenly hit with a ton of baggage fees that weren't explicitly stated (or at least I'm hoping there would be...)
December 14, 20177 yr This rule change is especially egregious because the choice of what to do with your baggage is often directly tied to federal laws regarding what you can carry-on or must check.
April 17, 20187 yr Two pretty big airline stories this week. First the Allegiant Air expose on shoddy maintenance and in-air equipment failures. And today, Southwest Airlines had it's very first fatality in the history of the company when an engine exploded at cruise altitude. This is also the first passenger death onboard a US commercial carrier since 2009. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-airlines-flight-emergency-landing-today-2018-04-17-live-stream-updates/
April 17, 20187 yr Two pretty big airline stories this week. First the Allegiant Air expose on shoddy maintenance and in-air equipment failures. And today, Southwest Airlines had it's very first fatality in the history of the company when an engine exploded at cruise altitude. This is also the first passenger death onboard a US commercial carrier since 2009. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-airlines-flight-emergency-landing-today-2018-04-17-live-stream-updates/ The Allegiant story was pointless and will have zero effect on their growth in the long term. A ULCC cutting costs so they can sell tickets at $49/flight? OMG. What's way more disturbing are GE engines and this repeated occurrence of uncontrolled failures. I feel so bad for the person who died today. What a horrific way to go.
April 18, 20187 yr I feel as sorry for the people who were on that plane and saw her die. That incident is going to be stuck in the witnesses' minds for the rest of their lives. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 18, 20187 yr Don't know where else to put this.... JetBlue flight attendants vote in favor of unionizing http://www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/national/jetblue-flight-attendants-vote-favor-unionizing-article-1.3939174 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 18, 20187 yr She deserves recognition.... The pilot who calmly landed #Southwest1380 after an uncontained engine explosion was one of the first female @USNavy fighter pilots. https://t.co/CiRQITMMYp "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 18, 20187 yr If GE was the manufacturer of that engine, they're definitely going to have some 'splaining to do. On the flip side, I think it's a fairly impressive tribute to the engineering team at Boeing that they managed to put together something that could manage an emergency descent with an engine that looked like Vader hit it from his TIE fighter. And, yes, definitely a tribute to the Southwest pilot to manage that descent under incredible strain--in multiple senses of the word--as well.
May 2, 20187 yr Andrew Horansky @WKYCAndrewH #HappeningNow #BreakingNews A @SouthwestAir plane has landed in Cleveland after reports of a cracked passenger window. No reports of injuries. @wkyc "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 2, 20187 yr Andrew Horansky @WKYCAndrewH A spokesperson for @GoingPlacesCLE says the plane left Chicago Midway and was headed for Newark when the pilot made the decision to land. 76 people were onboard. @wkyc "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 6, 20187 yr After these multiple incidents in such a short time period, many are reluctant to fly an airline they’ve flown before and others are “never flying Southwest again”. I heard that CLE-MKE bookings have gone down quite a bit, but that is to be expected across the board. Southwest is predicted to recover from this unfortunate string of events and loss trust. I’m not worried about thier maintenance, as this seems like bad luck & coincedence. Southwest is the world’s 3rd largest airline by passengers carried (4th in fleet size), and carried a significantly larger amount than United! They’ve been around since 1971 and have been a major airline for over 30-35 years, yet only three have been killed in SWA-related incidents. One died during an attempt to break into the cockpit, another from being in a car when a SWA flight slid off the runway, so this recent tragedy could be argued to first actual death of Southwest related to the aircraft’s issues directly causing it. Their Wikipedia page doesn’t even have a section for “accidents” which they’ve never had in their history, only some incidents. "We each pay a fabulous price for our visions of paradise." - ????, ???????
May 6, 20187 yr Anecdotal, but my spouse, who is on 2-8 flights per week for work, has never had so many "mechanical" delays as in the last 6 months. It's become a weekly occurrence. One recent issue required an emergency landing back at CVG after takeoff and an hour of flying around to diagnose, and to do a tower flyby for a visual inspection. A landing gear issue and a loss of steering in the front wheel were to blame. Most others have resulted in 1-4 hour delays. All on Delta. Is the fleet simply getting old???? Can we expect massive investment in this "supercharged" economy as a result of recent tax giveaways?
May 7, 20187 yr Out of Delta’s 862 aircraft currently in their fleet, over 500 are 757s, 767s, A320s, and MD80/717. Combined this nearly 3/4 of their fleet is around 20 years old, with some reaching up to 30. They are shifting their fleet to newer models and will soon retire the oldies but mechanical problems are actually quite common on Delta considering it has one of the oldest fleets in the US. "We each pay a fabulous price for our visions of paradise." - ????, ???????
May 7, 20187 yr the new longest commercial flight between jfk-singapore is restarting with a new airbus plane: https://amp.businessinsider.com/longest-flight-in-the-world-20-hours-from-singapore-to-new-york-2018-4
May 14, 20187 yr Another loss of cabin pressure for Southwest. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/southwest-flight-loses-pressure-makes-emergency-landing/ar-AAxfd08
June 24, 20186 yr American Airlines Is Offering 'the Most Miserable Experience in the World,' Says American Airlines Pilot The bathrooms are 75 percent the size they were before. https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/the-bathrooms-on-american-airlines-new-cramped-planes-are-the-most-miserable-experience-in-world-says-a-pilot.html American Airlines President: We Won't Make Things Better For Passengers Unless We Can Make a Profit Out of It You're not a customer. You're a profit center. And American thinks you need more Basic Economy seats. https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/american-airlines-president-we-wont-make-things-better-for-passengers-unless-we-can-make-a-profit-out-of-it.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 6, 20186 yr Today is National Air Traffic Control Day! Federal air traffic control began on July 6, 1936, and was housed under the Bureau of Air Commerce. (The Federal Aviation Administration was established later, in 1958.) #ATCAnniversary https://t.co/e05BuMGkbM Back in 1936, there were 15 ATC workers operating in three control centers (Newark, Chicago, and Cleveland). Today, there are over 14,000 air traffic controllers and 521 air traffic control towers across the country. #ATCAnniversary https://t.co/Hpx4ZgMY2W "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 6, 20186 yr Today is National Air Traffic Control Day! Federal air traffic control began on July 6, 1936, and was housed under the Bureau of Air Commerce. (The Federal Aviation Administration was established later, in 1958.) #ATCAnniversary https://t.co/e05BuMGkbM Back in 1936, there were 15 ATC workers operating in three control centers (Newark, Chicago, and Cleveland). Today, there are over 14,000 air traffic controllers and 521 air traffic control towers across the country. #ATCAnniversary https://t.co/Hpx4ZgMY2W And Cleveland Center out in Oberlin is the 3rd busiest in the country to this day.
July 6, 20186 yr ^"to this day"---you make it seem like its always been that way. ZOB used to be FIRST in the country.
July 6, 20186 yr ^"to this day"---you make it seem like its always been that way. ZOB used to be FIRST in the country. Sorry. You can tell I'm from Cleveland from my defeatist tone and grammar. Yes we were once the 5th largest city in the country also. To this day we are the 51st. (sigh....) :'( :'(
July 21, 20186 yr https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2018/07/15/airline-seat-standards-government-regulations-coming/777040002/ Even farm animals are treated better than passengers. The airlines brought this on themselves. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 6, 20186 yr Airports find a new source of revenue: Attaching hotels to terminals https://t.co/i4JMM72uCr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 10, 20186 yr The Ohio Aviation Association is trying to pry loose some state money to incentivize the airlines to provide new service. Everybody else does it, they say, referring specifically to Pennsylvania and Indiana. http://www.dispatch.com/news/20180908/airports-aviation-industry-push-for-ohio-air-service-incentives Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
November 23, 20186 yr If anyone is flying December 13--take note! United Airlines flight attendants plan system-wide day of protest https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/11/21/united-airlines-flight-attendants-plan-systemwide.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo
January 6, 20196 yr Cross-posted in the federal budget thread: Pilots, air traffic controllers and TSA all need to carry out a general strike for safe working conditions. It would be a move to save their own lives, the traveling public, and many of us on the ground...... Delta, United, and JetBlue pilots are warning that flying will become more dangerous as government shutdown continues https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-united-jetblue-pilots-warn-of-flying-dangers-during-shutdown-2019-1 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 4, 20196 yr even with all the lga disruption and construction the ny area airports set a record: https://www.amny.com/transit/airports-new-york-city-area-1.26716491
September 9, 20195 yr fyi to travelors — traffic has worsened around lga lately to accommodate reconstruction. take the subway/airport busses if you can. good news is construction is accelerated and in a couple years the whole airport will be rebuilt. https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/08/10/laguardia-airport-new-traffic-patterns/?_gl=1*14pr8h4*_ga*MzlUMGU5NUZ5Ykg2YmNzYjhlNWtzOG5HX2FHa2Z1UlZhRXUydDVjZFYwRkxKVVVMc1RsWG5jQWY4b21QMUZwag..
September 13, 20195 yr From 2017...and it doesn't include the many fossil fuel subsidies the largest of which may be the US military's protection of international oil shipping. 10 WAYS TAXPAYERS SUBSIDIZE U.S. AIRLINES https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2017/07/21/10-ways-taxpayers-subsidize-u-s-airlines/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 22, 20195 yr lga reconstruction is moving along well — all you need to know re new lga terminal b: https://www.laguardiab.com/gates-40-59
October 20, 20195 yr The NYC-SYD route is inching towards reality https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-20/qantas-makes-history-with-non-stop-new-york-to-sydney-flight/11621196?pfmredir=sm&fbclid=IwAR1aq7ptA4C_jc-eM7srxn_MfljMZbyu8jY2hur3xgocG3C1TwhpKzRCgBo
November 1, 20195 yr Now pending before the Ohio House of Representatives.... H. B. No. 283 Rep. Miller, A., Rep. Sweeney Create Competitive Global Air Service Development Grant Program To enact section 187.14 of the Revised Code to create the Competitive Global Air Service Development Grant Program and to make an appropriation. https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA133-HB-283 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 7, 20195 yr No mention on Cleveland.com, despite United's history here and lots of legacy fliers. United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz is stepping down https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/business/united-airlines-ceo-change/index.html
December 23, 20195 yr This story is about Buffalo Niagara International, but contains info about their (and other cities') ongoing efforts to secure a subsidized trans-Atlantic air route, as discussed at length for KCLE above. Efforts to gain trans-Atlantic flights for Buffalo entering crucial phase https://buffalonews.com/2019/12/22/efforts-to-gain-trans-atlantic-flights-for-buffalo-enter-crucial-phase/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=puma&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0l-8uP8yWXregnyGRvPQq2lVjUOZIEYOMvUpndG16ZSDw-p1JVR0wgrhc#Echobox=1577021642
January 20, 20205 yr WSJ airline ranking: https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/nation-world/delta-tops-annual-wall-street-journal-list-of-best-and-worst-airlines/95-79b4d76d-43b5-4eee-b400-066ffa167b5d
January 20, 20205 yr Delta thanks employees: https://fox8.com/2020/01/20/delta-thanking-employees-with-2-months-of-extra-pay/
February 7, 20205 yr The founder of JetBlue just launched a new US airline, aimed at routes that others have left behind https://www.businessinsider.com/breeze-new-airline-david-neeleman-moxy-jetblue-2020-2?fbclid=IwAR0-gcNK-FFZXBiaUlDQZZyOTN_zAVASzQahogy47_epzqTMrubAYVrn2rM
February 7, 20205 yr 41 minutes ago, Cleburger said: The founder of JetBlue just launched a new US airline, aimed at routes that others have left behind https://www.businessinsider.com/breeze-new-airline-david-neeleman-moxy-jetblue-2020-2?fbclid=IwAR0-gcNK-FFZXBiaUlDQZZyOTN_zAVASzQahogy47_epzqTMrubAYVrn2rM Is it called Amplane? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
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