not sure where to put this, so I'll give it its own thread.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/living-0/1208334642154400.xml&coll=2

 

Journey to the center

Growing number of residents making the move downtown, with more housing units coming

Thursday, April 17, 2008

Melissa Hebert and Brenda Junkin

Plain Dealer Reporters

Downtown Cleveland was magic when Jea nette and Ed Shemo were kids.

 

For the over-40 crowd, it was where department stores made you dizzy with their wares and holiday window displays. It was where you'd go to see Mr. Jingeling. It was where Dad took Mom out to dinner for their anniversary. It was where the city came together to work, play and shop.

 

To reach these Plain Dealer reporters:

 

[email protected], 216-999-5291;

 

[email protected], 216-999-4541.

 

There's a 24-hour store in the nearby Residence Inn for those late-night Ben & Jerry's cravings.

 

:-o

 

wish i knew this before now.

Wow, a really positive PD article.  Nice job!  Melissa's comment re: the lack of downtown childcare and adequate public schooling should not be ignored.  IMO, this is a large reason why more people don't consider living downtown.

Great article. I can't believe the PD ran something positive AND informative like this.

"That hour-plus she spent in the car each way was wasted time and opportunity. Instead of slogging down I-77, she could be meeting friends for drinks, networking at a work-related event, or working out at the gym."

 

That is *exactly* what prompted me to move from Hudson to Cleveland proper. My god, you'd think people who spend that much time driving would actually do it WELL. Needless to say, the slashed commute time also slashed my stress levels.

Wow, a really positive PD article.  Nice job!  Melissa's comment re: the lack of downtown childcare and adequate public schooling should not be ignored.  IMO, this is a large reason why more people don't consider living downtown.

 

  You won't find a more pro downtown Cleveland person than Melissa.  I've known her a few years and as soon as we had an opening for a resident on the gateway board, she was the first person i called.  That girl and her husband are in it to win it down here.

That was a great article not only for downtown, but that can only help Ohio City, Tremont, and other Cleveland neighborhoods grow and develop.

 

There are also some great suggestions in there for what some capitalist minded people can develop downtown to lure different dempgraphics (re: families) back into the city.

Hundreds love downtown tour

 

Monday, April 21, 2008

Laura Johnston

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Their windows show off downtown's greatest hits: the back-and-forth bridges of the Cuyahoga, the bustle of Public Square, the shiny nights of East Fourth Street.

 

Their interiors flaunt exposed ductwork and mammoth master baths.

 

[email protected], 216-999-4115

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/120876665274910.xml&coll=2

While Kathy Zugan lives in Chagrin Falls, she would love to buy a place downtown, as an investment and to spend the night after seeing a show at Playhouse Square.

 

Damn, that chick must have money to burn!

Not really.  When the right opportunity presents itself, that exactly what I plan on doing. I want a penthouse downtown and keep my crib on the square.

 

I'll use the appreciation of the SS apartment for the DT apartment.

You rich people make me sick. Things keep going the way they are I'm going to be living under a bridge!

You rich people make me sick. Things keep going the way they are I'm going to be living under a bridge!

 

I'm far from rich, but I do know how to make my money work for me!

You rich people make me sick. Things keep going the way they are I'm going to be living under a bridge!

 

I'm far from rich, but I do know how to make my money work for me!

 

I think my money quit and filed for unemployment.

on a topic related note, I worked one of the registration points for this event yesterday.  It was really interesting to see the different types of people showing up to the event, they really for the most seemed to fall into 3 distinct groups.  There were the early twenty somethings traveling in pairs (friends) typically asking what I knew about "cool" apartments to rent downtown because they are looking to move here and were hoping to find a place.  There was the late 20's early 30's professional crowd typically traveling either on their own or with a spouse asking questions regarding the for sale properties. And then there was the older 50's and up, that seem to be traveling in larger groups, in from the burbs just to check things out. 

 

  I took off about 3 and went to go check places out (not that I hadn't seen most already, but still)...

 

1. The Hannah theatre is going to be very, very cool.

2.  The Prospect Place apartments are very cool, even if they are slightly pricey.

3. The Avenue District is officially my 2nd favorite spot in the city behind the Park Building, which is so far and away the nicest place downtown it's not even funny.

the Park Building, which is so far and away the nicest place downtown it's not even funny.

 

I agree. I love that building. That's where I'm going if there's ever a nuke attack on the city. Yeah, I know the Park Building would probably be at Ground Zero (Public Square), but the building is so solidly built that I'd bet it would still survive intact. I wrote an article for Sun (and a little more in a message here on UO) about what made the Park so solid.

I, too, like that building.

19/27 units sold in the Park Bldg?!  Awesome!

Canada checking in here .... I love downtown Cleve, but man it resembles a ghost town alot of the time.  I love Clevelanders though....your town is on the rise, stay positive.

Canada checking in here .... I love downtown Cleve, but man it resembles a ghost town alot of the time.  I love Clevelanders though....your town is on the rise, stay positive.

 

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Cleveland is about the same size as Surrey, British Columbia or Halifax, Nova Scotia. Winnipeg dwarfs us.

19/27 units sold in the Park Bldg?!  Awesome!

 

Did the reporter get the wrong info? Last we heard, the developer had combined some units so that the total would only sum to 22. If 19 of 22 are sold, that is really good news for Mr. Howells.

Canada checking in here .... I love downtown Cleve, but man it resembles a ghost town alot of the time.  I love Clevelanders though....your town is on the rise, stay positive.

 

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Cleveland is about the same size as Surrey, British Columbia or Halifax, Nova Scotia. Winnipeg dwarfs us.

 

Ah, no.

How do you figure that math?

 

Winnepeg

Population (2006 Census[1][2])

- City 633,451 (Ranked 7th)

- Density 1,365.2/km² (3,535.9/sq mi)

- Urban 641,483 (Ranked 9th)

- Urban Density 1,428.95/km² (3,701/sq mi)

- Metro 694,668 (Ranked 8th)

- Metro Density 130.996/km² (339.3/sq mi)

 

Canada checking in here .... I love downtown Cleve, but man it resembles a ghost town alot of the time.  I love Clevelanders though....your town is on the rise, stay positive.

 

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Cleveland is about the same size as Surrey, British Columbia or Halifax, Nova Scotia. Winnipeg dwarfs us.

 

Ah, no.

How do you figure that math?

 

Winnepeg

Population (2006 Census[1][2])

- City 633,451 (Ranked 7th)

- Density 1,365.2/km² (3,535.9/sq mi)

- Urban 641,483 (Ranked 9th)

- Urban Density 1,428.95/km² (3,701/sq mi)

- Metro 694,668 (Ranked 8th)

- Metro Density 130.996/km² (339.3/sq mi)

 

 

Maybe dwarf is a bit overstatement. But 200k more people is nothing to sneeze at.

 

We're actually a tad higher than Brampton, Ontario, and a tad under Quebec City, QC.

And just what does any of this have to do with Living in Downtown Cleveland?  :?    :-D  :-D  :-D

(Oh, the irony of me saying that!  LMAO)

^Is Winnipeg similar to Cleveland in that it has a bunch of inner ring suburbs? I'm not familiar with the make up of Canadian cities.

^Don't think so- I think it's pretty much one big municipality, which even includes a lot of recent sprawl within its boarders.

 

Anyhoo, welcome JohnnyCanuck!  Yes, much of downtown is a little sleepy now, but all signs are positive that a bigger and bigger population will liven things up, so stay tuned!

Canada checking in here .... I love downtown Cleve, but man it resembles a ghost town alot of the time.  I love Clevelanders though....your town is on the rise, stay positive.

 

 

 

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Cleveland is about the same size as Surrey, British Columbia or Halifax, Nova Scotia. Winnipeg dwarfs us.

 

Nobody was comparing anything here AMN?  Thanks for the well wishes Canadian guy.

And Cleveland's suburbs dwarf Winnepeg's 53,000 suburban dwellers by 2 million to 2.85 million people, depending on if you use the Census' consolidated or primary MSA figures. Comparing Canada's cities to America's are apples and oranges.

 

The biggest question -- what the hell does any of this including Johnny Hoser's ghost town comment have to do with a discussion of places to live downtown?

I checked out the Krause Building above Wonder Bar this Sunday. Cool building but the master bedroom has a brick wall about 2 feet from the window and for $425,000 I would want a decent view. The unit I saw was on the second floor. I really liked how each unit gets the entire floor, it gives a feeling of privacy. I don't think there is any other building downtown like that.

 

Also, my building (pointe at gateway) continues to struggle to sell its penthouses. They've been for sale for 3 years and the developer has tried every incentive, free parking for a year, no condo fees for a year etc. Just out of curiousity, do you guys have any other ideas?

^I have never seen the penthouses. Design and layout-wise, what are their challenges? I'd assume that they'd sell if they were desireable. Are they over-priced?

Are there pictures of the units?  

What is the appliance package and what appliance come with said package?  

what are the bathrooms like?  

Radiant heat?

Custom closets?

Storage space?

Lastly, comparing those penthouses to other downtown penthouses how does it rate?

Are the apartments vacant or set up and staged?

 

Do I need to have my dad to come down there and sell those units?  lol

When I was in the search process for my place downtown, I looked at the penthouses at the Pointe at Gateway. LOTS of flaws make them undesirable.

 

There are two units, I beleive at $279,000 and $289,000 (they might be the same price now). The more expensive, nicer unit has better finished (from a cost perspective) but both units are Westlake chic instead of "Downtown Loft". You begin on the base floor with a couple of bedrooms, but the bulky walls make it awkward to move around. You have to go upstairs to get to the living area (and therefore alway lug your groceries up there) and kitchen. The stairs are rather long, not a half flight like a staggered loft but a full flight.

 

Upstairs, both penthouses have windows around the living room and almost to the kitchen. (I have photos somewhere.) The ceiling height is very low, making me feel cramped in what should have felt like a loft. The windows are so low you have to sit in a couch to see out into the city, otherwise you just see the deck. (I am 6'2"). There is a wrap-around deck leading out from the living room, but its not private since it connects to the other penthouse. This is the shining feature: a great view of Gateway. The deck however, is rotten and needs a lot of work. There are small landings big enough for a grill or maybe a couple of chairs for each penhouse.

 

Parking: None in the building. You have to rely on local parking garages.

Fees: Excessive maintenance fees (I dont remember the exact numbers but they were very high compared to other places, at least what was presented with the PH units)

Common Areas: At least on the PH floor, the common areas are gross. There is a huge hole in the ceiling just as you walk out of the PH units, obviously leaky and in need of expensive repair. Who wants an assessment on the first day? The rest of the are is dark and dingy, and the Workout room (which was locked at the time of my visit) looked equally dark and scary. Laundry (from memory) was on the bottom floor and not in-suite.

 

So, while $280k is cheap for a Penhouse, its a terrible deal overall. I ended up choosing the Erie Building in the WHD, but if you really want a place with a great view I would choose the Park Building. Even the PH at the Grand Arcade are better if you dont mind slipping onto the roofdeck throught a 3'x3' hole.

^One more thing, if youre upstairs, you have to go downstairs to the bathroom, even though there are 2. And the place is staged but awfully with pieced together furniture.

Here is the listing on realtyone with a few pictures:

http://realtyone.realliving.com/Property/Details.aspx?PropID=9373738

 

Also, here's the floor plan:

 

http://www.pointeatgateway.com/id10.html

 

They both have 2 bedrooms but the second bedroom is on the small side and in the model unit (which is fully furnished) it's set up as an office. I'm not sure what the appliance brands are but I know they were just upgraded about 6 months ago. As for closet space, I stopped by during the open house with my fiancee and she thought the closets were too small especially considering the price. The view is partially obstructed by the United Church of Christ building so you can see some of the Terminal Tower and 200 Public Sq. but not Key Tower. Also, the deck is a bit beat up since it was installed 11 years ago.

 

During the open house last sunday, I overheard several people make comments like "I have to lug my groceries upstairs." The bedrooms are on the first floor but the kitchen and living room are on the roof. They are priced at 289K and 279K and I really think that they big problem is no attached parking. Other high end units like those in the Park Building have attached garages.

 

I've never really been in another penthouse but I was in the 10th floor unit in the Sincere Building a few years ago and that was much nicer. It had a great view of Jacobs Field and felt more like an open loft space. Also, it had roof access.

 

Knowing all that and seeing the pitcures, what do you think a good price would be?

 

^ It looks like goteenb beat me too it! I toally agreee with your comment of "Westlake chic" lol. Also, the roof was fixed.

Also, there is a little known place in the WHD called the Heart building, it is a skinny building on W 9th just south of St. Clair sandwiched between two other buildings that also has roof access. I saw a unit there that is perpetually in "presale" (not on the MLS) owned by a realtor. It was priced aroun $350k and while not finished well, it had an AMAZING full on view of downtown as well as a roof deck.

 

The Erie building has Penthouse units, though they are priced pretty high (maybe 400-600k) and 2 of 4 are sold. You get a roof deck and a nice upper level sunroom depending on the unit, which is interesting. Views of DT and the lake depending on the unit. Plus, its custom built so the finish is up to you and generally very nice.

Hummmmmmmmmmmm.  After looking at the realty one listing and the website listing the square footage is different?  why?

 

Not having a powder room near the kitchen makes no sense.

 

I wonder if it's the agent who is the problem. 

 

They need to rent those puppies out for a short term lease, generate some income and make adjustments to the units.

^ They are the same: 1300 sq ft. Thats on the MLS too.

 

When I checked on the MLS I also remembered my "Cleveland Best Buy" Award winner: The Joshua Building or 1152 Prospect. There is a 1500 sq ft 2 level unit for $231,000 there that will blow your mind in the context of what you get. I had a reservation on this property for a while and ultimately chose to live in the WHD (nothing against this unit).

 

-High end finishes (better than Park building)

-Roof deck with ladder (Obstructed views of Gateway)

-2 spots (tandem) for regular size sedans (unheard of in most units at this price) and a street level entry garage

-Amazing storage basement with a ton of history, including some storage UNDER the street which is so cool

-Creative architecture options, custom build out. You can make this a 3 level monster unit for an extra 100k.

 

MLS 2282821

 

Of course the neighborhood is moving on up...but not quite as nice as Gateway or WHD yet. Kind of Playhouse Square meets off-rampish.

^ They are the same: 1300 sq ft. Thats on the MLS too.

 

Look at the buildings website.  It lists TWO DIFFERENT numbers for the square footage.  Look at the Penthouse floor plans. Above the floor plan picture it says 1,300 ON the floor plan picture it states 1,400.  Which one is correct??

 

If they can't get that right, and have their marketing material reflect that, then thats a check in the negative column and says a lot about the broker and the building management!

^Come on, everyone knows "Approx. 1400" means 1300! :-D

 

And youre right, the agent did suck at that building. They scheduled a showing with people still in one of the units without warning them or anything. Awesome. This was September 2007.

Today from the Dispatch-  Not particularly informative, but nice Cleveland blurb from the AP.

 

Rents downtown, near job centers rising

Sunday,  July 27, 2008 3:30 AM

By J.W. Elphinstone

 

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Sick of filling up the tank for 60 bucks? Considering a place closer to your downtown job? Prepare to pay higher rents as more like-minded apartment dwellers flock to urban digs.

 

Nationwide, rents near job centers and mass transit are rising faster than in other areas, according to New York-based real-estate research firm Reis Inc. The trend is strongest in Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Chicago, Seattle, Baltimore and Minneapolis.

 

In downtown San Diego, for example, rents have jumped 15 percent in the past year, to between $2,400 and $2,600 a month for a two-bedroom apartment, said Gregg Neuman, owner of Neuman & Neuman Prudential Realty.

 

Young renters and empty nesters want to walk to work or drive against rush-hour traffic to save time and gas.

 

If they live a half-hour or an hour away, "they could rent the same apartment for $800," Neuman said, "but they're now spending an hour commute and another $700 to $800 (a month) on gas."

 

In urban New York and New Jersey, Kamson Corp.'s apartments are filling up and pushing rents higher, while its suburban ones in Pennsylvania can't hold on to tenants.

 

"We're finding people asking more questions about mass transit, what kind of services there are in the immediate area," said Mike Beirne, Kamson's executive vice president.

 

Many cities are showing increases in public-transit ridership this year, according to the American Public Transportation Association.

It's great to see our city in the same sentance with the above mentioned!

Have you seen this New Republic story?

 

http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id=264510ca-2170-49cd-bad5-a0be122ac1a9

 

It talks about demographic inversion. Do you think Cleveland will ever see a flood of folks into downtown?

Have you seen this New Republic story?

 

http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id=264510ca-2170-49cd-bad5-a0be122ac1a9

 

It talks about demographic inversion. Do you think Cleveland will ever see a flood of folks into downtown?

 

Well, downtown Cleveland is already seeing pretty impressive population growth, especially compared to the rest of the city.  As more housing continues to be built or created from existing non-residential space, the population will likely grow even more.

 

As for seeing a "flood" of people, well, I don't know.  Cleveland's economy and growth patterns have been pretty moderate lately (moderate job losses in some sectors, moderate gains in others, moderate population loss for the city as a whole, but moderate gain in metro population and certain neighborhoods.  And before people jump on me, that's only looking at actual decennial Census counts, not any of the recent, nebulous estimates.)  So I don't know that there would be an "explosion" per se of people downtown. 

 

On the other hand, given the large number of housing units planned for FEB, Pesht, and conversions along Euclid, etc. (it seems like there's a new one announced weekly,) there may be more of a flood than I'd expect.  That does assume that the demand for downtown housing stays constant or grows, and given the rate of sales for downtown condos and high occupancy rates for rental properties, and during an economic downturn at that, I'd say that's not an unrealistic expectation.

 

So that long answer basically boils down to, "it's hard to say, but I'm cautiously optimistic."

If Stonebridge was considered in the total, then our stats would look much better. I think that they are included in Ohio City's.

 

With the vacancy rates, I think that the new apartments will fill up pretty well. That bodes very well for Euclid. I also think that the condos will sell much faster once they are actually built. Nobody likes to wait for over a year for a unit to be finished. That's the problem that we currently have.

Confiteordeo, well said and I couldn't have said it better.

If Stonebridge was considered in the total, then our stats would look much better. I think that they are included in Ohio City's.

 

That's correct.  I believe that Stonebridge was included in the Brookings report that gave downtown's population as 9,600 or so.  I think I recall forumers here saying that downtown sans the Flats' West Bank is now around 10,000, so if FWB is included, that number would indeed be higher (and we'd be looking at the same area that Brookings did in 2002 or whenever that report was published.)