^^I'm pretty sure SixthCity was being sarcastic

 

^Thank you, Donald Sutherland (JFK)

 

I don't feel all that strongly about this issue one way or the other, but I doubt it will have the disastrous effect some are predicting.  What jobs in Cleveland are minimum wage?  Of those jobs, which ones are in danger of moving to the burbs?  Fast-food restaurants, etc. do well in the inner city.  They can afford to pay their workers more than they do and still come out nicely.  My assumption would be that the effect of this legislation is moreso going to be changing several jobs, which currently pay above minimum wage, into minimum wage jobs. 

^^I'm pretty sure SixthCity was being sarcastic

 

^Thank you, Donald Sutherland (JFK)

 

I don't feel all that strongly about this issue one way or the other, but I doubt it will have the disastrous effect some are predicting.  What jobs in Cleveland are minimum wage?  Of those jobs, which ones are in danger of moving to the burbs?  Fast-food restaurants, etc. do well in the inner city.  They can afford to pay their workers more than they do and still come out nicely.  My assumption would be that the effect of this legislation is moreso going to be changing several jobs, which currently pay above minimum wage, into minimum wage jobs. 

 

How about city workers?  Are they all making above $15/hr?

Can the City of Cleveland legally raise the minimum wage on its own?

 

I guess I'm confused because a similar discussion about this in Columbus resulted in consensus that the city acting alone would be unconstitutional, and any change would need to happen at the state level.

 

Granted, that could just be a convenient interpretation to pass the buck on the issue without offending activists, but...

 

Council member Jaiza Page told voters that there were barriers at the state level preventing cities from being able to raise the wage on their own.

 

“I believe that it is currently unconstitutional in the state of Ohio for a city to raise the minimum wage,” said Page, quoted in the Columbus Free Press last October. “I will, as a member of Columbus City Council, go to our state legislature” … “to raise the minimum wage, and to amend the constitution to allow cities to have the power to set their own minimum wages."

 

http://www.columbusunderground.com/%EF%BF%BCgrassroots-organization-brings-15-wage-fight-to-city-hall

Raising the minimum wage doesn't lift peoples' standard of living. How many times has it been raised already with no real effect on US "poverty". Doubling the federal base will only drive prices even higher and be passed on the to the same consumers it is supposed to help. There are better ways to solve "poverty" in the US but it's third-rail stuff to the establishment wing of both parties.

 

Also, why is the standard $15/hr? Why not make it $100/hr. and make everyone "rich"?

 

Anyway this petition movement in Cleveland is just a another wing of the SEIU. So this is just a piece of their nationwide initiative to pressure Congress into raising it. If they can get the Council to pass the hike, it's one more reason to force the hand of the folks in DC.

^^I'm pretty sure SixthCity was being sarcastic

 

^Thank you, Donald Sutherland (JFK)

 

I don't feel all that strongly about this issue one way or the other, but I doubt it will have the disastrous effect some are predicting.  What jobs in Cleveland are minimum wage?  Of those jobs, which ones are in danger of moving to the burbs?  Fast-food restaurants, etc. do well in the inner city.  They can afford to pay their workers more than they do and still come out nicely.  My assumption would be that the effect of this legislation is moreso going to be changing several jobs, which currently pay above minimum wage, into minimum wage jobs. 

 

How about city workers?  Are they all making above $15/hr?

 

I don't believe so.  I actually think the union representing the service department was one of the groups who advocated for an increase.  But most other non-salaried city workers make above $15.  If you factor in other benefits, which I think any legislation should do to a certain extent, I wouldn't be surprised if all city workers made above $15/hr.

 

I'm all for raising the minimum wage, but this seems to be a fairly dramatic jump.  It would nearly double the current minimum wage.

Can the City of Cleveland legally raise the minimum wage on its own?

 

I guess I'm confused because a similar discussion about this in Columbus resulted in consensus that the city acting alone would be unconstitutional, and any change would need to happen at the state level.

 

Granted, that could just be a convenient interpretation to pass the buck on the issue without offending activists, but...

 

Council member Jaiza Page told voters that there were barriers at the state level preventing cities from being able to raise the wage on their own.

 

“I believe that it is currently unconstitutional in the state of Ohio for a city to raise the minimum wage,” said Page, quoted in the Columbus Free Press last October. “I will, as a member of Columbus City Council, go to our state legislature” … “to raise the minimum wage, and to amend the constitution to allow cities to have the power to set their own minimum wages."

 

http://www.columbusunderground.com/%EF%BF%BCgrassroots-organization-brings-15-wage-fight-to-city-hall

 

At face value, I don't see why a city would not be able to go above and beyond the state "minimum"... and we all know it's very, VERY hard to live on what the minimum wage is now.  Without question it should be raised, and I'm glad SEIU is taking on this fight.  For all the negatives that people may believe will occur (which I don't buy into), a great positive for this is that the city will look progressive nationally which would be great.

Can the City of Cleveland legally raise the minimum wage on its own?

 

I guess I'm confused because a similar discussion about this in Columbus resulted in consensus that the city acting alone would be unconstitutional, and any change would need to happen at the state level.

 

Granted, that could just be a convenient interpretation to pass the buck on the issue without offending activists, but...

 

Council member Jaiza Page told voters that there were barriers at the state level preventing cities from being able to raise the wage on their own.

 

“I believe that it is currently unconstitutional in the state of Ohio for a city to raise the minimum wage,” said Page, quoted in the Columbus Free Press last October. “I will, as a member of Columbus City Council, go to our state legislature” … “to raise the minimum wage, and to amend the constitution to allow cities to have the power to set their own minimum wages."

 

 

According to the Ohio Constitution minimum wage amendment passed last decade:

 

"Laws may be passed to implement its provisions and create additional remedies, increase the minimum wage rate and extend the coverage of the section, but in no manner restricting any provision of the section or the power of municipalities under Article XVIII of this constitution with respect to the same. If any part of this section is held invalid, the remainder of the section shall not be affected by such holding and shall continue in full force and effect."

 

This seems to say that municipalities are constitutionally allowed to increase the minimum wage.

 

 

 

^Or, perhaps better put, the State is not allowed to restrict the a City's discretion to set the minimum wage as it sees fit.

I'm fairly certain cities in Ohio can do this under home rule. 

 

As for how many in Cleveland are making under $15, probably a lot.  Possibly most.  Nurse aides at nursing homes get a fraction of that.  $15 is closer to the bottom of the LPN scale than it is to the average aide.  I mention that line of work because it's a high turnover labor shortage-- they're always hiring.  What percentage of Cleveland Clinic workers would get a raise?  I'm guessing roughly half.  Most people in retail are well below that number, hotels too.  And there are tons of manufacturing jobs that pay close to minimum, often through agencies who take a cut.  In that case the employer is likely paying $15 anyway. 

 

Something has to give, and it ain't the poor, so the concept of this proposal doesn't bother me.  I don't think the west coast offers a realistic example though.  $15 would affect a larger proportion of workers in Cleveland and would be a larger raise.  And there's the issue of demand... commerce isn't lining up to get into Cleveland like in SF and Seattle.  Big pieces of the city proper are in ruins, and this law would only apply to the city proper.  A city that still engages in old school shakedowns.  Good luck with that.  Sorry to say, $15 could only work here on a statewide basis and even that's a stretch.  Ohio's competition isn't California, it's India.

Totally agree - and is $15/hour a living wage in Cleveland compared to our per capita income? How is a living wage determined?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2016/05/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_59.html

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson stops short of supporting city minimum wage increase

"I continue to support a minimum wage increase if mandated by the state or federal government and not just for the City of Cleveland. For the full economic impact this has to be a united effort throughout Ohio and the United States."

Totally agree - and is $15/hour a living wage in Cleveland compared to our per capita income? How is a living wage determined?

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2016/05/cleveland_mayor_frank_jackson_59.html

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson stops short of supporting city minimum wage increase

"I continue to support a minimum wage increase if mandated by the state or federal government and not just for the City of Cleveland. For the full economic impact this has to be a united effort throughout Ohio and the United States."

 

It's good to see Mayor Jackson show some sense on this issue.

 

Even on a national level it's not a real issue and an incredible waste of time. If you make the minimum wage $15/hr. then the baseline for a living wage will just go up. How many cycles does this have to happen before it is realized it doesn't move people out of "poverty".

 

Like I tell Bernie supporters: Why go for a paltry $15/hr. when you can go for $100/hr. or $200/hr.?  The higher the base wage, the richer everyone will be! It's silly.

 

To be fair, this was brought to the Council. They didn't bring this up.

^So then you would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage?

^So then you would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage?

 

Did I say that? Are you in favor of making the minimum wage $200/hr.?

 

Without price controls the minimum wage will never catch up with the constantly rising cost of living. And no, I'm not in favor of price controls.

^Did anyone say they were in favor of a $100 minimum wage? Something about the minimum wage issue brings out the worst kind of disingenuous arguments and misplaced assumptions about total stupidity on the opposing side.

 

That said, for reasons others have pointed out, this particular measure seems like a bad idea. Business is far too mobile within the region. Even the county would be too small a geography to try something like this, putting aside just how high it should be raised.

^Did anyone say they were in favor of a $100 minimum wage? Something about the minimum wage issue brings out the worst kind of disingenuous arguments and misplaced assumptions about total stupidity on the opposing side.

 

That said, for reasons others have pointed out, this particular measure seems like a bad idea. Business is far too mobile within the region. Even the county would be too small a geography to try something like this, putting aside just how high it should be raised.

 

Thanks for looking at what you want to see on this. I was responding to Hts. question.

 

I think I've been pretty clear about why $15/hr. won't do that much. How many minimum wages hikes have we had? What effect has it had on US poverty? It's not "total stupidity". It is an understanding of very, very basic economics.

 

To put it another way -- why is $15/hr. such a sensible number? Why is $100/hr. part of a "disingenuous argument"? What's the magic amount that is called a living wage? How can you maintain it without price controls?

^So then you would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage?

 

Did I say that? Are you in favor of making the minimum wage $200/hr.?

 

Without price controls the minimum wage will never catch up with the constantly rising cost of living. And no, I'm not in favor of price controls.

 

Well... I wouldn't have asked the question if you directly said that.  I was simply asking what is commonly referred to as a follow up question because I took from your post that you don't see a value in having a minimum wage at all.  I thought it was a reasonable question.  We're simply having a discussion.  No need to take every response to your comments so personally. 

^^Federal minimum wage today is 30% lower (in real dollars) than it was at its peak in the late 60s. Unless you're talking about 50 year old legislation, all these "hikes" you keep mentioning are illusory. They haven't even kept up with inflation. And looking at actual poverty trends isn't the counterfactual you'd want to compare against anyway.  Ohio's minimum wage is a little higher than the federal one, but its been tied to inflation only since 2006, so even it is much lower than the federal minimum wag was in the late 60s.

 

I'm certainly not going to defend $15 as the right number for Cleveland, and yes, there is certain amount of arbitrariness whenever laws pick a fixed number. That's true for everything, from tax rates to speed limits. There is politics in everything.  If you're just saying $15 is too high, then sure, I probably agree. But your posts seem to make broader arguments about the futility of minimum wage policy. To that extent, pretending that minimum wage advocates can't see the difference between some number higher than $8 and $100/hour is silly. Pretending that "very basic economics" clearly suggests anything is silly, because it can't make normative decisions for us.

 

[edited for typos]

I'm fairly certain cities in Ohio can do this under home rule. 

 

As for how many in Cleveland are making under $15, probably a lot.  Possibly most.  Nurse aides at nursing homes get a fraction of that.  $15 is closer to the bottom of the LPN scale than it is to the average aide.  I mention that line of work because it's a high turnover labor shortage-- they're always hiring.  What percentage of Cleveland Clinic workers would get a raise?  I'm guessing roughly half.  Most people in retail are well below that number, hotels too.  And there are tons of manufacturing jobs that pay close to minimum, often through agencies who take a cut.  In that case the employer is likely paying $15 anyway. 

 

Something has to give, and it ain't the poor, so the concept of this proposal doesn't bother me.  I don't think the west coast offers a realistic example though.  $15 would affect a larger proportion of workers in Cleveland and would be a larger raise.  And there's the issue of demand... commerce isn't lining up to get into Cleveland like in SF and Seattle.  Big pieces of the city proper are in ruins, and this law would only apply to the city proper.  A city that still engages in old school shakedowns.  Good luck with that.  Sorry to say, $15 could only work here on a statewide basis and even that's a stretch.  Ohio's competition isn't California, it's India.

 

Also, there are union contracts where entry level must be at least a certain percentage above minimum wage, and of course all other levels go up from there.  So there's some easter eggs in this proposal too.

^If true, that would make this proposal DOA in city hall. No way they want to lay off a ton of people.

^Perhaps those consequential layoffs are the "Easter eggs" E Rocc was speculating about? ;)

Some perspective vs. the minimum wage increases.

 

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/02/25/remedial-economics-and-the-minimum-wage-for-presidents/

 

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/charts/10_things_economists_believe-44.html

^This is definitely a huge factor in the decision, so valuable perspective, but it's not like sophisticated advocates don't know this, or that "increas[ing] unemployment among young and unskilled workers" (borrowed from the real clear markets poll) is dispositive. Part of the equation is the degree of those effects and of the countervailing benefits to those low wage workers who remain employed. At least among people who don't have inflexible ideological objections to the concept of a minimum wage, there's a cost benefit analysis to be debated, not just an argument whether there are any costs.

^This is definitely a huge factor in the decision, so valuable perspective, but it's not like sophisticated advocates don't know this, or that "increas[ing] unemployment among young and unskilled workers" (borrowed from the real clear markets poll) is dispositive. Part of the equation is the degree of those effects and of the countervailing benefits to those low wage workers who remain employed. At least among people who don't have inflexible ideological objections to the concept of a minimum wage, there's a cost benefit analysis to be debated, not just an argument whether there are any costs.

 

Agree. There's a degree of sophistication inherent to these kinds of issues that often gets overlooked.

^This is definitely a huge factor in the decision, so valuable perspective, but it's not like sophisticated advocates don't know this, or that "increas[ing] unemployment among young and unskilled workers" (borrowed from the real clear markets poll) is dispositive. Part of the equation is the degree of those effects and of the countervailing benefits to those low wage workers who remain employed. At least among people who don't have inflexible ideological objections to the concept of a minimum wage, there's a cost benefit analysis to be debated, not just an argument whether there are any costs.

 

On the other hand, when government does this many of those costs are borne by others.   

 

Before even considering this proposal council should ensure all city employees, including their staffers, make at least $15/hr.

There was a nice discussion of this issue on The Sound of Ideas yesterday. One of the things I personally found interesting was that job losses weren't regarded as a big effect of minimum wage hike. But they did say a 10% increase in pay only led to a 2% increase in compensation.

 

This was attributed to less hours or elimination of other ancillary benefits (free meals, discount merchandise, ect).

 

Not many people seem to be in favor of the Cleveland proposal. One of the biggest reasons is that the rise would not be phased in as it has been practically everywhere else. I didn't realize that.

^ Brian Cummins has proposed amending the proposal to make it increase in phases http://brian-cummins.blogspot.com/2016/05/ordinance-621-16-cleveland-minimum-wage.html?m=1

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/05/17/1-wendys-embraces-self-order-kiosks.html

Wendy's is embracing self-order kiosks. I saw this first-hand at their flagship location in Dublin and found it to be intuitive, easy-to-use and prompt. Wendy's always had decent customer service at the cashier, but my orders frequently came out wrong due to user error in the inputting process. At places like McDonald's (a chain that is now rolling out self-order kiosks nationwide), orders are frequently wrong and the front counter overwhelmed.

 

If you have been to Sheetz or GetGo, the self-order kiosks have long been used to speed up the ordering process and reduce errors. It's not a new concept, but I'm glad others are picking up on it.

 

Raise the wage to $15 will only expedite the rollout these kiosks (not that the kiosks are needed - workers are just incompetent).

Grocery stores already did this, and self-driving semi trucks are not far off.  Automation will continue to eat up unskilled jobs regardless of wages.  That's part of why we have our current mess, automation hit manufacturing extra hard already.  Ultimately wages do need to come up, I just hate to see Cleveland go it alone.

Grocery stores already did this, and self-driving semi trucks are not far off.  Automation will continue to eat up unskilled jobs regardless of wages. 

 

Skilled jobs could be jeopardized, but those careers certainly have more protectionist shielding. But it's not hard to imagine surgery and medical practice will be more automated. And Baker Hostetler law firm just hired an IBM computer which sounds ridiculous, but could open the door for normal people to get excellent legal representation in the future.

 

The SEIU is being a bit ridiculous imo. But regardless, it looks like this might all be a moot point.

 

DeWine issued an opinion saying cities cannot legally set their own minimum wage.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/06/ohio_attorney_general_cities_c.html#incart_river_mobile_home

I was very happy to open up my laptop and see that from him. After this, and all of the work he's put into trying to get E Cleveland out of its mess, he's one of the very few state officials I like. I'm also pleasantly surprised at Council's and the Mayor's handling of this, with the weekly meetings as well as alot of what I feel is common sense. I'm someone who supports a national increase to $15 (phased in over time, not all at once like this), but frankly, as someone who loves this city and lives in it, this proposal terrifies me. Cleveland has finally turned the corner, and this threatens to put us right back where we were by covering such a tiny geographical area, and jumping too far, way too fast.

 

As an aside, I'm also curious as to where $15 came from everywhere when when the debate first started nationally, everyone was trumpeting $10.10

As an aside, I'm also curious as to where $15 came from everywhere when when the debate first started nationally, everyone was trumpeting $10.10

 

It came from nowhere.  It's completely arbitrary, as is any price *set* by a legislature for the value of a good or service.

A minimum wage needs to be pegged to inflation, so that it increases and decreases based upon an index that is independent of politicians.

Have any other council members come out emphatically in support or opposed to this issue?

Have any other council members come out emphatically in support or opposed to this issue?

There's a street named after Don King in Cleveland. We're going to move it to the place where he killed a guy.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/09/portion_of_cedar_where_don_kin.html#incart_river_home

 

Is there a list of who voted for and voted against this on Council? (Does Council use roll call voting?)

There's a street named after Don King in Cleveland. We're going to move it to the place where he killed a guy.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/09/portion_of_cedar_where_don_kin.html#incart_river_home

 

 

WTAF???

 

And there was actually a unit called the Green Berets within CPD?  Guess militarized police is not a new thing.

 

Cedar between E 36 and Stokes will still be Cedar, no? and "Killer Way" will be place on top of it, or will the street name actually change?

 

Are Council votes one by one or all at once? Do we know who voted for this and who didn't?

 

"The Cleveland City Council plans to rename an area of Cedar Avenue between East 36th Street and Stokes Boulevard after the bombastic boxing hall of famer, according to Cleveland.com, the same stretch of blocks where King had killed an employee in 1966 who failed to pay a gambling debt."

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/cleveland-don-king-area-killed-man-article-1.2793489

 

 

It was originally proposed for a part of Shaker Boulevard by Zach Reed (my unfortunate ward boss), who stated that Don King was a fantastic role model for young black kids in the city. I'm dead serious.

It was originally proposed for a part of Shaker Boulevard by Zach Reed (my unfortunate ward boss), who stated that Don King was a fantastic role model for young black kids in the city. I'm dead serious.

 

I can't figure Zach out sometimes.  He'll make incredible sense one day, and come up with something completely crazy the next.

They are catching a lot of flack for this and rightly so.  Commentary in the PD today about it

These people live in a strange thought bubble.  It's inevitable with power as enduring as theirs.  They control everything in their wards and they get to pick their successors.  The system is wired to protect itself, to stifle dissent and subvert democracy.  Hard to imagine a fix that doesn't involve federal intervention.

And people wonder how I can be so harsh on Cleveland sometimes - these types of people hold the city back so much. Shaker Square could be so much more impactful and vibrant if we allowed leaders to be progressive rather than pander to a very specific demographic that will keep them voted into office.

 

How nice would it be that instead of spending resources promoting Don King, the murderer, that we use it to promote local artists and movers-and-shakers that are making differences in Shaker? What about reigning in the illegal ATV and dirtbikers roaming through the sidewalks and streets of the city (esp. in my neighborhood) instead of enabling them like Mayor Jackson does (because his son, who tried to evade cops and failed)?

 

There is a reason why the streetscape drastically improves as soon as you hit the Shaker Heights city line - or the Cleveland Heights city line.

The city has and still lauds Jim Brown despite his propensity for beating and trying to kill women (never mind his antisemitism). We have a long way to go.

And people wonder how I can be so harsh on Cleveland sometimes - these types of people hold the city back so much. Shaker Square could be so much more impactful and vibrant if we allowed leaders to be progressive rather than pander to a very specific demographic that will keep them voted into office.

 

How nice would it be that instead of spending resources promoting Don King, the murderer, that we use it to promote local artists and movers-and-shakers that are making differences in Shaker? What about reigning in the illegal ATV and dirtbikers roaming through the sidewalks and streets of the city (esp. in my neighborhood) instead of enabling them like Mayor Jackson does (because his son, who tried to evade cops and failed)?

 

There is a reason why the streetscape drastically improves as soon as you hit the Shaker Heights city line - or the Cleveland Heights city line.

 

Grandson, actually.  By the way, I am about 95% sure FJ has a grandson playing football for Maple Heights.  He was quite recognizable on the visitor's sideline at the Maple - Willoughby game, along with two semi-subtle bodyguards.  What that means of course is his kid(s) live in the area but not in the city.

 

I could say the same things about Waterloo, the street itself is killing it.  Mostly, but not only, because of the Beachland, which the city almost put out of business.  But it's not spreading up E. 156th and it should be.

 

Reed you can sometimes tell knows what needs to be done.  Unless he's changed dramatically since college, so does Jeff Johnson.  But the pandering gets in the way massively.  Hell, most of the "leaders" couldn't even bring themselves to condemn the harassment of Damon Wells. 

Thanks, the Plain-Dealer article noted it was his grandson as well. What's worse is that Jackson (two days later?) announced a $2.5 million motorbike/ATV park in the Garden Valley neighborhood, despite the neighborhood association pretty much set against it.

 

It's one thing to offer that amenity in West Virginia, where that activity is extremely popular - and a huge money generator, but for an urban city? What, are they going to load ATV's and dirt bikes in the back of their pickup trucks and drive over? No. They will ride the streets - which is illegal in the state of Ohio. And where does the $2.5 million come from when there are more obvious needs?

^ I've seen this ATV and dirt bike issue raised several times on these forums, and I must say I find it a bit odd and confusing.  Is there really a big problem with people riding ATVs down urban streets?! I've never once seen that in Cincinnati, or any other city, now that I think about it.  As you probably recall from your time living here, Sherman, there are roving crews of motorcyclists that surface throughout the city in the summer time.  Eden Park seems to be a big hangout for them, though they generally cruise through downtown, OTR, and up through Uptown, and they're very loud and annoying, but I thought they were just regular, legal motorcycles.  Is this dirt bike and ATV issue different? I'm just having a hard time picturing those 4 wheelers (which is what I envision when I think of ATV) going down an urban street in Cleveland.

Thanks, the Plain-Dealer article noted it was his grandson as well. What's worse is that Jackson (two days later?) announced a $2.5 million motorbike/ATV park in the Garden Valley neighborhood, despite the neighborhood association pretty much set against it.

 

It's one thing to offer that amenity in West Virginia, where that activity is extremely popular - and a huge money generator, but for an urban city? What, are they going to load ATV's and dirt bikes in the back of their pickup trucks and drive over? No. They will ride the streets - which is illegal in the state of Ohio. And where does the $2.5 million come from when there are more obvious needs?

 

The part about street riding was brought up incessantly in the cle.com comments, and my own ward boss Polensek went off about the latter, even on the Triv show.

 

To make matters "better" the proposed park would have displaced a decades old youth football program that produced, among others, Ohio State RB Demario McCall.  In a park currently named after Marion Motley.

 

The NA was undoubtedly quite aware that dirt bikes and ATVs are used for mid level drug activity (street dealers use bicycles) and this park would have become a hub for that.