2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

 

If you work in distribution (like I have) you understand why stuff is way more expensive in "walkable" areas (and big dense cities like New York and Paris) versus out in Texas strip malls.  Not only is it far less efficient to distribute to a bunch of small stores/restaurants/bars than it is to a handful of mega-stores out in the suburbs, a consumer with a car has far more options to seek lower prices. 

 

^ A good reminder that many businesses and practices are currently cookie-cutter tailored for certain growth patterns. As with many aspects of life, the momentum is much more toward maintaining the status quo rather than for the positive changes we want to see. 

Sort of like how once the fashion infrastructure got built around jeans rather than more formal clothing that changed each season, jeans are always front and center and have been for over 25 years now. People can wear 25 year old clothes now and no one notices. Try that in 1976.

Jeans have been fashionable since the 1970s. Remember Jordache?

 

Anyway, there's something more than just community design keeping kids indoors. My son is growing up in a streetcar suburb where we can walk to just about everything. But we walk together. When my 10-year-old son wants to go to the park to meet his best friend, they want us parents to take them there. The park is one block away!

 

 

12 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

 

If you work in distribution (like I have) you understand why stuff is way more expensive in "walkable" areas (and big dense cities like New York and Paris) versus out in Texas strip malls.  Not only is it far less efficient to distribute to a bunch of small stores/restaurants/bars than it is to a handful of mega-stores out in the suburbs, a consumer with a car has far more options to seek lower prices. 

 

 

 

i dont think that is true or that you understand bigger cities at all. or texas for that matter. all you have out in west texas for texas miles is a walmarts, how it is that more choice?

 

there are way more options in big cities, not to mention much more variety and price variation. plus price isnt the top issue you think it is.

 

for example, there is no delivery issue, outside of local -- everything comes overseas right to the doorstep here in nyc, it couldn't be more efficient. if you dont want to shop at whole paycheck or fairway or some other fancy place, there are chinatowns and 99 cent stores and farmer markets and normal local chain groceries and the like right next door. also, prices for things are not just a fight to the top, they are also a fight to the very bottom, so you get it all. meanwhile, in some suburb its all the same colluded prices at your three nearby grocery stores.

11 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Especially if the roads are properly designed and therefore give priority to transit and delivery.

 

A Wal-Mart or large grocery store takes delivery at loading docks that are level with the back of box trucks and semis.  This means that they can quickly offload palletized freight. 

 

Delivering to a storefront on any sort of city street is completely different.  You either use a lift gate or a ramp.  In either case, the truck driver has to break down the pallet or pallets on the truck itself, meaning it might take 5+ trips over the course of 30 minutes with a two-wheeler to offload what takes - quite literally - just 30 seconds with a pallet jack or fork lift on a loading dock. 

 

What this all means is that a single delivery driver can deliver much, much more freight in a day - easily 2X as much - if they're delivering to loading docks as opposed to traditional storefronts. This means 2X as many vehicles in addition to the second driver. 

 

Costs are way, way, way higher. 

 

 

 

41 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

i dont think that is true or that you understand bigger cities at all. or texas for that matter. all you have out in west texas for texas miles is a walmarts, how it is that more choice?

 

The only city in western Texas is El Paso.  Houston and Dallas are gigantic cities with tons of competing distributors, meaning any individual producer has many options.  It's the opposite of the mob controlling fruit wholesaling or whatever.  Tons of loading docks, very little unloading on the street.  Living in Dallas or Houston is like half of what it costs to live in NYC. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

A Wal-Mart or large grocery store takes delivery at loading docks that are level with the back of box trucks and semis.  This means that they can quickly offload palletized freight. 

 

Delivering to a storefront on any sort of city street is completely different.  You either use a lift gate or a ramp.  In either case, the truck driver has to break down the pallet or pallets on the truck itself, meaning it might take 5+ trips over the course of 30 minutes with a two-wheeler to offload what takes - quite literally - just 30 seconds with a pallet jack or fork lift on a loading dock. 

 

What this all means is that a single delivery driver can deliver much, much more freight in a day - easily 2X as much - if they're delivering to loading docks as opposed to traditional storefronts. This means 2X as many vehicles in addition to the second driver. 

 

Costs are way, way, way higher. 

 

I’m well aware of how different delivery is at a box store vs dense city. You said delivering in NYC was like delivery to Hawaii, which was not a reasonable comparison. Furthermore, you still seem to be neglecting how many costs are externalized in the big box store scenario. The roads they use are extremely costly to governments. And the big box store land usage makes it extremely difficult to build up the kind of density necessary for good mass transit. 

I’m so looking forward to congestion pricing in NYC because it’s going to show just how inefficient the typical road users in cities is. Congestion pricing has worked wonders in London. 

 

4 hours ago, Lazarus said:

The only city in western Texas is El Paso.  Houston and Dallas are gigantic cities with tons of competing distributors, meaning any individual producer has many options.  It's the opposite of the mob controlling fruit wholesaling or whatever.  Tons of loading docks, very little unloading on the street.  Living in Dallas or Houston is like half of what it costs to live in NYC. 

 

The living cost issue of NYC is primarily a result of exclusionary zoning that drastically reduces the number and size of multi family housing that can be built. CA has the same problem, but at least they are trying to do something about it with the more recent YIMBY-driven legislation. The Builders Remedy that legislation has created is going to be exciting to see in action. 

5 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

A Wal-Mart or large grocery store takes delivery at loading docks that are level with the back of box trucks and semis.  This means that they can quickly offload palletized freight. 

 

Delivering to a storefront on any sort of city street is completely different.  You either use a lift gate or a ramp.  In either case, the truck driver has to break down the pallet or pallets on the truck itself, meaning it might take 5+ trips over the course of 30 minutes with a two-wheeler to offload what takes - quite literally - just 30 seconds with a pallet jack or fork lift on a loading dock. 

 

What this all means is that a single delivery driver can deliver much, much more freight in a day - easily 2X as much - if they're delivering to loading docks as opposed to traditional storefronts. This means 2X as many vehicles in addition to the second driver. 

 

Costs are way, way, way higher. 

 

 

That doesn't even include the second person on the truck which is likely needed to prevent theft.   

 

There's a lot of reasons why these stores are often more expensive.

 

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

The only city in western Texas is El Paso.  Houston and Dallas are gigantic cities with tons of competing distributors, meaning any individual producer has many options.  It's the opposite of the mob controlling fruit wholesaling or whatever.  Tons of loading docks, very little unloading on the street.  Living in Dallas or Houston is like half of what it costs to live in NYC. 

 

 

 

 

 

living in dallas or houston is half the cost vs nyc mostly due to real estate, not goods.

 

and still way more people overall are housed in nys because there is a human right to shelter law, so poors with mh issues dont have to live under a bridge like in texas.

 

also, ny state pays texas for stuff like their stupid massive flyover road projects because nys is payer state and texas is a welfare state. not because its poor like mississippi, but because it willfully does not tax itself enough. don’t get me started on welfare states. 

 

anyway, i’m sure more than half the stuff in my house, from groceries to furniture, and even our building materials, is local or off a boat and did not come off a usa long haul semi. 

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

A Wal-Mart or large grocery store takes delivery at loading docks that are level with the back of box trucks and semis.  This means that they can quickly offload palletized freight. 

 

Delivering to a storefront on any sort of city street is completely different.  You either use a lift gate or a ramp.  In either case, the truck driver has to break down the pallet or pallets on the truck itself, meaning it might take 5+ trips over the course of 30 minutes with a two-wheeler to offload what takes - quite literally - just 30 seconds with a pallet jack or fork lift on a loading dock. 

 

What this all means is that a single delivery driver can deliver much, much more freight in a day - easily 2X as much - if they're delivering to loading docks as opposed to traditional storefronts. This means 2X as many vehicles in addition to the second driver. 

 

Costs are way, way, way higher. 

 

 

 

 

except costs are also often way, way lower for those types of goods because for one thing and being an ohioan you are missing something. its called immigration. they hustle to their own beat and dont know or care about walmart or any usa standard truck driver money. 

5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The living cost issue of NYC is primarily a result of exclusionary zoning that drastically reduces the number and size of multi family housing that can be built.

 

Zoning doesn't prevent people from moving in with roommates (yes, there are often local limits on unrelated people in a unit, but that's not zoning).  The number of households keep increasing faster than the population since more and more people are inheriting money or making enough money to live alone or as a couple without a third or fourth roommate. 

 

I'm sure that there are 100,000+ spare bedrooms in Manhattan alone and closer to a million citywide that could be rented out but people can afford not to. 

 

 

4 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That doesn't even include the second person on the truck which is likely needed to prevent theft.   

 

There's a lot of reasons why these stores are often more expensive.

 

 

 

Yeah none of these people who are telling me I'm wrong have any acquaintance with how stuff gets to stores.  Their arguments are all borrowed from Twitter, which is full of rich, boring couch creatures who hold nothing but contempt for the working class. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Yeah none of these people who are telling me I'm wrong have any acquaintance with how stuff gets to stores.  Their arguments are all borrowed from Twitter, which is full of rich, boring couch creatures who hold nothing but contempt for the working class. 

 

I don't even know what you're arguing about. Everyone agrees that things in dense urban areas are more expensive at the checkout than suburban box stores. Obviously shipping is part of that equation.

 

Another part is just volume. They are able to lower costs per item because they will make it up in volume.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

 

Yeah none of these people who are telling me I'm wrong have any acquaintance with how stuff gets to stores.  Their arguments are all borrowed from Twitter, which is full of rich, boring couch creatures who hold nothing but contempt for the working class. 

 

 

 

The most tempted I have ever been to call (as opposed to e-mail or text) a radio talk show was when Triv had George Forbes on and he was railing against the prices inner city stores charge.  

 

I wanted to suggest that between his money and his contacts, if they were really price gouging he and his could do better.  

12 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

A Wal-Mart or large grocery store takes delivery at loading docks that are level with the back of box trucks and semis.  This means that they can quickly offload palletized freight. 

 

Delivering to a storefront on any sort of city street is completely different.  You either use a lift gate or a ramp.  In either case, the truck driver has to break down the pallet or pallets on the truck itself, meaning it might take 5+ trips over the course of 30 minutes with a two-wheeler to offload what takes - quite literally - just 30 seconds with a pallet jack or fork lift on a loading dock. 

 

What this all means is that a single delivery driver can deliver much, much more freight in a day - easily 2X as much - if they're delivering to loading docks as opposed to traditional storefronts. This means 2X as many vehicles in addition to the second driver. 

 

Costs are way, way, way higher. 

 

 

 

We used to get our deliveries by liftgate.  The driver never broke down the pallet on the truck, not once.  It does take a couple minutes longer to make the delivery, but not 30.  We paid 150-300 dollars extra for the lift gate service.  So there is you big difference.  It is more expensive for small retailers.  But that applies Downtown or in the suburbs.

7 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That doesn't even include the second person on the truck which is likely needed to prevent theft.   

 

There's a lot of reasons why these stores are often more expensive.

 

We never had a second driver in the truck on any of the deliveries to our location.  Maybe they weren't worried that people would be stealing wrapped, palletized goods.

13 minutes ago, X said:

We never had a second driver in the truck on any of the deliveries to our location.  Maybe they weren't worried that people would be stealing wrapped, palletized goods.

I watch the delivery drivers park up the middle of W6th in Cleveland all the time....they are always solo. 

13 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

A Wal-Mart or large grocery store takes delivery at loading docks that are level with the back of box trucks and semis.  This means that they can quickly offload palletized freight. 

 

Delivering to a storefront on any sort of city street is completely different.  You either use a lift gate or a ramp.  In either case, the truck driver has to break down the pallet or pallets on the truck itself, meaning it might take 5+ trips over the course of 30 minutes with a two-wheeler to offload what takes - quite literally - just 30 seconds with a pallet jack or fork lift on a loading dock. 

 

What this all means is that a single delivery driver can deliver much, much more freight in a day - easily 2X as much - if they're delivering to loading docks as opposed to traditional storefronts. This means 2X as many vehicles in addition to the second driver. 

 

Costs are way, way, way higher. 

 

 

 

Also, not all trucks come with liftgates. Scheduling a liftgate delivery can often cost extra or delay delivery by a few days. When we order equipment, oftentimes we have to have a forklift on site for the day to unload since we do not have a loading dock. 

Eastland Mall has tons of loading docks

3 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Yeah none of these people who are telling me I'm wrong have any acquaintance with how stuff gets to stores.  Their arguments are all borrowed from Twitter, which is full of rich, boring couch creatures who hold nothing but contempt for the working class.

There are ways to make urban deliveries easier and more efficient than they are now, but I think we all agree that the efficiencies will never reach your ideal Big Box multi-loading dock, just-off-the-highway delivery model that you say is the most efficient.  Don't confuse discussions about how deliveries can be made in urban areas differently than from the outer 'burbs as disagreement with the acknowledged fact that things sold in smaller urban establishments are going to be more expensive than in a big suburban box. 

 

You probably know far more about Twitter than I do, but putting down other commenters for their opinions is probably more likely to get you blocked on this forum than it is on Twitter.  Keep it civil.

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

I watch the delivery drivers park up the middle of W6th in Cleveland all the time....they are always solo. 

 

Despite recent events, W. 6th is definitely part of "Cleveland One" and isn't close to representative of Cleveland Two.

 

^ heres another one — de facto they allow semi trucks in nyc. they should make them switch to vans around the periferique to deliver inside the city like they do in paris. yeah there some rules for nyc, but its not enforced well when you see them around everywhere they obviously should not be clogging the roads and unable to turn and the like. post pandemic its worse than ever and maddening.

Give me a break. 

 

The 2-wheel dolly used by box truck drivers has a capacity of over 500lbs.  Two kegs of beer or a stack of 15 24-packs of beer weighs like 350lbs. 

 

A single skid can have upwards of 100 cases of beer on it or 20+ kegs.  That's literally 2,000lbs, or a ton. 

 

What bicycle or trike has a 2,000lb capacity, or even 500lbs?

 

Depending on the design, a typical box truck as 10-14 skid spaces, and if they're flat, you can stack double that. 

 

A semi trailer has 26~ spaces depending on the design, meaning a 52-skid max if the skids on the bottom row have flat tops. 

 

Distributing 52~ skids worth of stuff on a cargo bike would require at least 200 bikes. 

 

Twitter is stupid. 

 

 

Maybe they should be making these deliveries by container ship. Did you stop to calculate how much beer a container ship could deliver?

"Money density" is an important concept to think about and is a reason why things like toilet paper and toilets are still made here. It is also why pop doesn't travel far and why local brands of potato chips can still compete against Frito-Lay. The more space something takes up and the less it sells for helps local companies win. Think about how many $1200 iPhones you can fit on a skid. Now think about how few cases of Natti you can. This is why taprooms clobbered NASCAR bars.

5 minutes ago, GCrites said:

"Money density" is an important concept to think about and is a reason why things like toilet paper and toilets are still made here. It is also why pop doesn't travel far and why local brands of potato chips can still compete against Frito-Lay. The more space something takes up and the less it sells for helps local companies win. Think about how many $1200 iPhones you can fit on a skid. Now think about how few cases of Natti you can. This is why taprooms clobbered NASCAR bars.

 

Fountain drinks. 

 

Urbanist Twitter and the various Urbanist sites (Streetsblog, etc.) went completely crazy in the late 2010s.   It's just one intellectual fad after another.  Lots of sad people trying to impress one-another.  Things that started off cute like NUMTOT got completely insane, like the French Revolution. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Give me a break. 

 

The 2-wheel dolly used by box truck drivers has a capacity of over 500lbs.  Two kegs of beer or a stack of 15 24-packs of beer weighs like 350lbs. 

 

A single skid can have upwards of 100 cases of beer on it or 20+ kegs.  That's literally 2,000lbs, or a ton. 

 

What bicycle or trike has a 2,000lb capacity, or even 500lbs?

 

Depending on the design, a typical box truck as 10-14 skid spaces, and if they're flat, you can stack double that. 

 

A semi trailer has 26~ spaces depending on the design, meaning a 52-skid max if the skids on the bottom row have flat tops. 

 

Distributing 52~ skids worth of stuff on a cargo bike would require at least 200 bikes. 

 

Twitter is stupid. 

 

 

 

Twitter is a place where anyone can pontificate on things where they have neither experience nor responsibility for the outcome.

 

It's a different aspect of why referenda elections often turn bad ideas into policy.

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Twitter is a place where anyone can pontificate on things where they have neither experience nor responsibility for the outcome.

 

 

Or rather they just latch onto whatever fad they sense is going to "win", and the algorithm automatically boosts the most outlandish positions, meaning anyone who joins a little Twitter army is automatically doing something outlandish.  I recall reading Animal Farm when I was about 10 and not understanding how adults couldn't recognize that they had been spun around to espouse the complete opposite of what they had asserted a moment earlier.  But we get to see this every single day, all day long on Twitter. 

 

 

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

 

It's a different aspect of why referenda elections often turn bad ideas into policy.

 

Most recently, LA's mansion tax. 

 

We have had idiotic stunts by representative government forever, but the widespread tilt to self-righteousness, to my knowledge, began around 2003 when many D-controlled city councils across the country passed a resolution condemning the Iraq war.  This sort of thing has been driven into hyper-drive in recent years, since any aspiring local politician can now become Twitter-famous on Twitter by stirring up some sort of manufactured local controversy.  All they have to do is assert something that isn't true, bait a normal person into telling them they're wrong, post their response on Twitter, then bask in the likes from all of the losers who waste their time there.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Give me a break. 

 

The 2-wheel dolly used by box truck drivers has a capacity of over 500lbs.  Two kegs of beer or a stack of 15 24-packs of beer weighs like 350lbs. 

 

A single skid can have upwards of 100 cases of beer on it or 20+ kegs.  That's literally 2,000lbs, or a ton. 

 

What bicycle or trike has a 2,000lb capacity, or even 500lbs?

 

Depending on the design, a typical box truck as 10-14 skid spaces, and if they're flat, you can stack double that. 

 

A semi trailer has 26~ spaces depending on the design, meaning a 52-skid max if the skids on the bottom row have flat tops. 

 

Distributing 52~ skids worth of stuff on a cargo bike would require at least 200 bikes. 

 

Twitter is stupid. 

You complain about Twitter but then don't read what was actually written:
 

Quote

They restricted van access during peak hours.

Just because they can't use a truck during rush hour, does not mean every delivery has to be by bike. So if there's some oversized delivery necessary, that's fine, just make an appropriate plan to have it delivered outside of rush hour, when space in the public RoW is at a premium.

12 hours ago, Lazarus said:

The 2-wheel dolly used by box truck drivers has a capacity of over 500lbs.  Two kegs of beer or a stack of 15 24-packs of beer weighs like 350lbs. 

 

A single skid can have upwards of 100 cases of beer on it or 20+ kegs.  That's literally 2,000lbs, or a ton. 

 

What bicycle or trike has a 2,000lb capacity, or even 500lbs?

This bicycle trailer holds around 600 lbs and can work well with an electric bike.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/reviews/heavy-duty-three-wheeler-trailer/carla-cargo-trailer-3839

 

In Asia small motorcycle-motor cargo tuk-tuks can carry up to about 1300 lbs.

https://rafplay.com/products/megawheels-cargo-tuk-tuk-electric-3-wheels-scooter-trolley-1-7-mtr?variant=39925787033623

 

A small cargo van can carry around 1500 lbs

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/transit-connect

 

A standard cargo van can carry about 3800 lbs

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-can-you-fit-in-a-9-foot-cargo-van

 

If you make "big" deliveries early in the morning with a larger truck (which also is ideal because there is less traffic) you can certainly "top up" deliveries where needed with smaller vehicles.

Also, it should go without saying that the municipality should design for useful and appropriate cargo delivery, regardless of the mode. That helps resolve a lot of the conflicting issues. NACTO and other urbanist orgs seem to get that.

I don't know about you, but I think our cities are getting out of control. I'm getting tired of seeing this stuff...

 

Cleveland...

 

Pittsburgh...

 

^ two things, one is not so bad, that stuff has always been happening, its just more easily seen now through social media.

 

and two, more concerning stuff like the latter is easily arranged via social media. same for other similar hoodluming events (thats what we called it as kids, “lets go hoodluming” lol) and also i guess things like retail smash and grabs by flash mobs.

8 hours ago, KJP said:

I don't know about you, but I think our cities are getting out of control. I'm getting tired of seeing this stuff...

 

Cleveland...

 

Pittsburgh...

 

I am getting sick of this as well. As I've said before crime and lawlessness don't have to rise to the level of "violent" to be a problem. The perception of safety and security matter almost as much as the corresponding reality. People need to feel safe and comfortable to want to live in, or even just hang out in, a place. These petty little crimes stack up and work to erode the feelings and perceptions of safety and comfort. All of this means we need police, and we need to empower them to do their job, and that includes enforcing the "small" stuff. 

 

42 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

one is not so bad

Disagree, just because something has become normal does not mean it isn't bad. Erratic behavior like this from mentally unwell people is a large contributor to the erosion of the sense of public safety and comfort. Plus there's the second issue that the offender needs help (the psychiatric kind), and as long as he's allowed to act as he pleases, he isn't receiving that help. 

RE: the first video.

 

How do we know this kind of thing is new or worse than before?

 

Generally speaking I know statistics show crime ticked up a ton in 2020. At least in Cleveland, the crime rate decreased in 2021 and again in 2022, though.

 

But the kind of thing you see in the video is not the kind of thing that would get reported in crime statistics. It's also the kind of thing that's wild enough most people won't experience it. I live by Coventry and as a result interact with some homeless/panhandler folks on a weekly basis. Some of them are pretty rude and aggressive (not physically), but I've never seen or even heard of someone jumping up on a car. My personal experience is that mentally ill unhoused people act now the way they always have.

 

There are a couple ways the world is different. Compared to when I was young, I think I see a lot more moms with small kids begging for money (usually out in the suburbs). Also the protests/riot in 2020 were pretty unlike anything else I've experienced in my life, though that seems to be a totally different phenomenon from what's in the video @KJP posted. 

 

But other than that, I've had a fairly consistent experience of dealing with homeless folks throughout my life. Maybe others have had a different personal experience; I can just comment on mine.

 

So, personally, if I can't judge from crime statistics and my personal experience doesn't show anything changing, I would tend to assume we see more of this stuff on social media due to a sampling bias. Everyone has a phone, and the wildest of the wild behavior is what gets amplified by the network.

 

Is there some non-social media basis on which to judge that petty crime is getting worse and our cities are "out of control?"

26 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

RE: the first video.

 

How do we know this kind of thing is new or worse than before?

 

Generally speaking I know statistics show crime ticked up a ton in 2020. At least in Cleveland, the crime rate decreased in 2021 and again in 2022, though.

 

But the kind of thing you see in the video is not the kind of thing that would get reported in crime statistics. It's also the kind of thing that's wild enough most people won't experience it. I live by Coventry and as a result interact with some homeless/panhandler folks on a weekly basis. Some of them are pretty rude and aggressive (not physically), but I've never seen or even heard of someone jumping up on a car. My personal experience is that mentally ill unhoused people act now the way they always have.

 

There are a couple ways the world is different. Compared to when I was young, I think I see a lot more moms with small kids begging for money (usually out in the suburbs). Also the protests/riot in 2020 were pretty unlike anything else I've experienced in my life, though that seems to be a totally different phenomenon from what's in the video @KJP posted. 

 

But other than that, I've had a fairly consistent experience of dealing with homeless folks throughout my life. Maybe others have had a different personal experience; I can just comment on mine.

 

So, personally, if I can't judge from crime statistics and my personal experience doesn't show anything changing, I would tend to assume we see more of this stuff on social media due to a sampling bias. Everyone has a phone, and the wildest of the wild behavior is what gets amplified by the network.

 

Is there some non-social media basis on which to judge that petty crime is getting worse and our cities are "out of control?"

One way to possibly evaluate this would be to look at the perception of national crime versus crime in the respondents area over time. Two sets of data below, one supports your hypothesis (increasing divergence between the two) and the other does not. 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/205560/public-perception-of-crime-problem-in-nationwide-and-local/

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ft_20-11-12_crimeintheus_3/

 

Edit: I should say I'm sympathetic to your hypothesis. Adding to your point about KJP's video, it's also the thing that probably wouldn't have even made local news. What would the headline be "local crazy homeless man acts crazy?" But on social media, the headline can be "Look what happened to me today!" And it's almost guaranteed to go viral. 

 

--

 

From what I can tell the reality seems to be that crime overall is down or stagnant, but violent crime seems to be increasing, both nationally and locally. 

 

https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Cleveland-Ohio.html

 

--

 

Personally, what seems to me to be increasing (anecdotally of course) is the flagrant hoodlumism. The "just try and catch me coppers" attitude from local punks is getting out of control, and that seems to be creating a the impression that the City (Cleveland) doesn't really have control. From what I've gathered, this doesn't seem to be a Cleveland specific problem. I don't have any statistics to back that up though. 

Edited July 25, 20231 yr by Ethan
Added paragraph

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

 

Disagree, just because something has become normal does not mean it isn't bad. Erratic behavior like this from mentally unwell people is a large contributor to the erosion of the sense of public safety and comfort. Plus there's the second issue that the offender needs help (the psychiatric kind), and as long as he's allowed to act as he pleases, he isn't receiving that help. 

 

no, i dont mean that particular act vs the other act in and of themsleves, i meant its not as bad as the other because its known and not anything new, the other is new because of social media and we are still trying to figure it all out. apparantly the latest is mexican cartels are pivoting to flash mobs or whatever online organized robberies. and of course thats how trump's insurrection attempt was arranged, etc..

2 hours ago, mrnyc said:

^ two things, one is not so bad, that stuff has always been happening, its just more easily seen now through social media.

 

and two, more concerning stuff like the latter is easily arranged via social media. same for other similar hoodluming events (thats what we called it as kids, “lets go hoodluming” lol) and also i guess things like retail smash and grabs by flash mobs.

Agree totally. Availability of information can warp perspective. Twitter is (was?) a hell of a drug

8 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

no, i dont mean that particular act vs the other act in and of themsleves, i meant its not as bad as the other because its known and not anything new, the other is new because of social media and we are still trying to figure it all out. apparantly the latest is mexican cartels are pivoting to flash mobs or whatever online organized robberies. and of course thats how trump's insurrection attempt was arranged, etc..

I understand your point, and in a certain sense, you're not wrong, but I can't help being reminded of the Joker's speech in The Dark Knight. People learn to accept whatever is normal, even if it's terrible, it's "all part of the plan." In this case, I think this is one of those things we have learned to accept as normal that we shouldn't. The seriously mentally unwell present real problems for cities, and because there is no easy solution that respects all of our values in the modern, western world we have just allowed the problem to be normalized. I don't think that's the best path forward, we need a real solution. 

 

(I'm not accusing you of villainy by comparing you to the Joker btw, he's making a good point, it was just the best example that came to my mind).

Just now, Ethan said:

I understand your point, and in a certain sense, you're not wrong, but I can't help being reminded of the Joker's speech in The Dark Knight. People learn to accept whatever is normal, even if it's terrible, it's "all part of the plan." In this case, I think this is one of those things we have learned to accept as normal that we shouldn't. The seriously mentally unwell present real problems for cities, and because there is no easy solution that respects all of our values in the modern, western world we have just allowed the problem to be normalized. I don't think that's the best path forward, we need a real solution. 

 

(I'm not accusing you of villainy by comparing you to the Joker btw, he's making a good point, it was just the best example that came to my mind).

 

i got you.

 

i am not trying to normalize mh and drug addict issues. of course that has existed and will exist forever.

 

its just that today our awareness of incidents like that is monumental vs prior to social media.

 

also indeed there are waves of incidents based on the popular drug of the era. i guess the opposite of that hyper crackhead would be someone nodding out on the street from heroin or whatever other depressant zombie drugs. its sad either way.

i read an article about how philadelphia was dealing with druggies. the addicts generally were minding their own business for a long time and had built a camp or a few camps on city property next to railroad tracks and the like away from everyone to do their drugs. eventually the city went in those and rousted them out. now they are out on the street staggering around. if you want to see pathetic there are a bunch of videos of kensington of this. i dk what is more ethical, letting them do it in private or in public on the streets, but you can see how its a real struggle for a city to deal with.

Kensington makes the Tenderloin look like paradise. Mass institutionalization - if it costs billions, then it costs billions - is needed for these ill people. They're dangers to themselves and others.

 

 

Edited July 25, 20231 yr by TBideon

3 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

RE: the first video.

 

How do we know this kind of thing is new or worse than before?

 

Generally speaking I know statistics show crime ticked up a ton in 2020. At least in Cleveland, the crime rate decreased in 2021 and again in 2022, though.

 

But the kind of thing you see in the video is not the kind of thing that would get reported in crime statistics. It's also the kind of thing that's wild enough most people won't experience it. I live by Coventry and as a result interact with some homeless/panhandler folks on a weekly basis. Some of them are pretty rude and aggressive (not physically), but I've never seen or even heard of someone jumping up on a car. My personal experience is that mentally ill unhoused people act now the way they always have.

 

There are a couple ways the world is different. Compared to when I was young, I think I see a lot more moms with small kids begging for money (usually out in the suburbs). Also the protests/riot in 2020 were pretty unlike anything else I've experienced in my life, though that seems to be a totally different phenomenon from what's in the video @KJP posted. 

 

But other than that, I've had a fairly consistent experience of dealing with homeless folks throughout my life. Maybe others have had a different personal experience; I can just comment on mine.

 

So, personally, if I can't judge from crime statistics and my personal experience doesn't show anything changing, I would tend to assume we see more of this stuff on social media due to a sampling bias. Everyone has a phone, and the wildest of the wild behavior is what gets amplified by the network.

 

Is there some non-social media basis on which to judge that petty crime is getting worse and our cities are "out of control?"

Spot on.

Social media strikes again. Punks behaving like punks but now social media has amplified their game. So they act out but now they can see themselves on social media and that seems to amply the behavior. 

 

The more they do the more they see themselves. The more they do. I'm not saying social media is THE cause but l think it has upped the game. And that game didn't need any help in the first place.

It definitely contributes to their criminal emboldness. Gang beefs and  bad behavioral bravado proliferate online much like high school bullying. The s**t really brings out the worst in people, and it goes 24/7.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

hmm, now why would you post that without any proof, except that what you really mean is 15min cities are a perjorative for you.

 

so instead of these childlike arms length trumpspeak dodges, why dont you at least man up to your vague rightwinger takedown shorthand?

 

oh wait i know why, because clearly what it means is, “i dont like 15min cities because …. blahblah … black people and foreigners and poors and high falootiners and city stuff.”

 

 

 

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That's become a pejorative, right of center.

Out of topic in the Brown's stadium discussion, but E Rocc's not wrong. I've seen the beginnings of this myself. Not that it's the majority opinion yet or anything, but in our standard reactionary political climate, anything sufficiently popular on the left will engender a negative backlash from a portion of the right. (and vice versa). 

 

Also, I resent the implication that anyone who says "some people think x" is automatically covering for their own beliefs. Assuming as much is little more than an ad hominem and has no place in a good faith discussion. 

 

Japan doesn't allow almost any immigration.  It is a monoculture. They don't have to worry about "they're coming for..." because there is no other culture. 

 

 

Which means they can't blame outgroups and know things have to be done systematically. Instead of blaming drivers they blame design or policy. No saying "If people would just... (slow down) (read signs) (not be so nuts) etc.