1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

Okay - trying to find out more for my good friend @KJP, but I just went to happy hour (in person again finally) with an old classmate who claims to know an out-of-town developer eyeing Thunderbird for a residential redevelopment. 

 

This is very speculative, but that's obviously what we do here - gossip. Nonetheless, the hope would be to:

 

1. Obtain a MASSIVE zoning variance;

2. Revert to some old street plan that used to be on the peninsula (does anyone know about this?);

3. Build code-driven single family homes, between 2,400 - 4,000 square feet, with no driveways (parking in allies behind homes)

4. The goal would be to attract middle to upper middle class families in the 30-45 year old range that want to live in the city but currently don't see a "safe" alternative (i.e. their mother-in-law thinks Ohio City is a danger zone);

5. And my favorite of all (as some of you know how much I love this development) - Communities like Norton Commons outside of Louisville are what's in mind with the proposal.

 

I have a call in with a friend to make sure this isn't a completely BS rumor - but figured I'd share with the UO fam for now, as even the idea of a holistic development like this has me excited.

That would be incredible 

Here's more old maps from a great website -- https://www.arcgis.com/apps/View/index.html?appid=ddb0ee6134d64de4adaaa3660308abfd

 

You can see in the 1852 and 1874 maps that there were never many streets on Scranton Peninsula which is what made it attractive to industry -- along with having Cleveland's first railroad and the easy hill climb up Walworth Run.

 

Oh, and BTW, if you wanted to know how old the Scranton-Averill company is, it was a combination of two of the oldest property owners from nearly 200 years ago.......

 

 

 

11 hours ago, KJP said:

Here's more old maps from a great website -- https://www.arcgis.com/apps/View/index.html?appid=ddb0ee6134d64de4adaaa3660308abfd

 

You can see in the 1852 and 1874 maps that there were never many streets on Scranton Peninsula which is what made it attractive to industry -- along with having Cleveland's first railroad and the easy hill climb up Walworth Run.

 

Oh, and BTW, if you wanted to know how old the Scranton-Averill company is, it was a combination of two of the oldest property owners from nearly 200 years ago.......

 

 

 

 

To add onto this, there were a few breweries down there way back when, I say they should come back (in addition to brewdog, GLB, Brick and Barrel) :)

 

https://veganbrisket.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=19628b56e7f8479c9261b7700272616c

Edited June 10, 20214 yr by GISguy

15 hours ago, X said:

Single family homes would be extremely underwhelming after the renderings that Thunderbird was launched with.

 

If something like Norton Commons is, in fact, their idea, then there would be a fair amount of retail, restaurants, offices, etc. on the "town square
 or "village green" area

9 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

If something like Norton Commons is, in fact, their idea, then there would be a fair amount of retail, restaurants, offices, etc. on the "town square
 or "village green" area

Norton Commons looks like a New Urbanist development from what I've seen. Id be OK with that. But, I think some small multi-unit houses could be thrown into the mx as well. 

I am okay with residential, but I would rather see well made classic brownstones rather than just single family homes.  The suburban look in the city just isn't for me (I think of the East side along Chester).

It would surely be nice to see some new brownstones itd look particularly cool down there. Im curious as to why there is an aversion to that in city or maybe I'm wrong and am just missing them

14 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

I am okay with residential, but I would rather see well made classic brownstones rather than just single family homes.  The suburban look in the city just isn't for me (I think of the East side along Chester).

In my fantasy where I have billions of dollars to play with, I’ve often dreamt of building a big neighborhood of brownstones in Cleveland.
 

NYC, DC, Baltimore, etc., everyone seems to have them except Cleveland. 

Not really, outside of the Accela corridor (basically the cities that you just listed) they are extremely rare.

 

I'd love to have some brownstones, too, but I'd hope Scranton Peninsula ends up closer to the original plans that were posted here a couple years ago- mixed use, multi story, with good integrated publicly accessible greenspaces along the river's edge.

I personally love the idea of single family homes there (you know I don’t care much for the “this is too suburban” trope) and I think they’d sell very very quickly. I think there’s a market for people who want to live in the city, close to downtown but want a house. Probably people who are/were living downtown. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to who’ve said “man I loved living downtown, but my wife and I had a kid and I had to move to a house. I didn’t want to go to the suburbs but I had to.” I hear it all the time. So there’s definitely a market for this

11 minutes ago, X said:

Not really, outside of the Accela corridor (basically the cities that you just listed) they are extremely rare.

 

True. I should have been more specific than “everywhere.”  I recently did a Google street view tour of Baltimore and was shocked at the quantity and quality of their brownstones and row houses. Made me a bit envious. 
 

Cleveland developers would do well to look to the Columbus developer who over the last few years has been building the Gay Street row houses in downtown Columbus. They are very nice. 

I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I still think Scranton Peninsula would make a great park! 

 

I am also confused as to why a city that is at best stagnant in population, and has about 40% of the population it had 100 years ago is focusing on building new neighborhoods, rather than on revitalizing and rejuvenating the ones we already have. 

 

In terms of things preventing suburbanites from moving Downtown, lack of parks and nature downtown is definitely one of them. 

10 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I personally love the idea of single family homes there (you know I don’t care much for the “this is too suburban” trope) and I think they’d sell very very quickly. I think there’s a market for people who want to live in the city, close to downtown but want a house. Probably people who are/were living downtown. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to who’ve said “man I loved living downtown, but my wife and I had a kid and I had to move to a house. I didn’t want to go to the suburbs but I had to.” I hear it all the time. So there’s definitely a market for this

 

The vast majority of Cleveland neighborhoods are dominated by single family homes.  If they can't find what they want in one of those neighborhoods, they clearly never actually wanted to raise their kid in the city.

35 minutes ago, X said:

 

The vast majority of Cleveland neighborhoods are dominated by single family homes.  If they can't find what they want in one of those neighborhoods, they clearly never actually wanted to raise their kid in the city.

Ding Ding Ding!!!!

Hard to imagined detached single family penciling given how well townhouse projects sell, especially decently designed ones.  And with a few notable exceptions, townhouses are the only product in Cleveland that seem to do an OK hiding parking.  With higher density, we inevitably end up with unlined parking structures or, more likely huge swaths of surface parking. If medium/large multifamily, I reckon we'd see something a lot closer to that NRP crud than the eyewash in the Thurnderbird marketing material.   

3 hours ago, X said:

 

The vast majority of Cleveland neighborhoods are dominated by single family homes.  If they can't find what they want in one of those neighborhoods, they clearly never actually wanted to raise their kid in the city.

The neighborhood I’m from is dominated by duplexes (as are most city neighborhoods on the east side) and a lot of the city’s housing stock in general is old and outdated (outside of the far west side). 

24 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

The neighborhood I’m from is dominated by duplexes (as are most city neighborhoods on the east side) and a lot of the city’s housing stock in general is old and outdated (outside of the far west side). 

 

If an area is attractive, the construction market will respond. Consider Lakewood, which has the second-oldest housing stock in Cuyahoga County (trailing only East Cleveland) and has more apartments than all but four cities in the county. Many of those rentals are in duplexes. But with the desire to live in a walkable area, in a city with decent schools and governance, many duplexes are being renovated and converted into single family homes, then resold at a significant mark-up. So if someone wants a single-family home in a certain area, it's not that hard to address even when the supply is low.

 

To bring this back on the subject of Scranton Peninsula, if you make the peninsula a TIF district that funds local policing, cleaning and maintenance, you can provide an attractive setting for prospective residents who demand high-end single-family homes (give me some Beacon Hill-style townhomes!) in better living conditions through local governance that is willing to pay attention to details.

Scranton peninsula has the potential to be one of the most desirable neighborhoods due to its geography. But what is under that surface soil? Has it been cleaned enough for human habitation? 

42 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

If an area is attractive, the construction market will respond. Consider Lakewood, which has the second-oldest housing stock in Cuyahoga County (trailing only East Cleveland) and has more apartments than all but four cities in the county. Many of those rentals are in duplexes. But with the desire to live in a walkable area, in a city with decent schools and governance, many duplexes are being renovated and converted into single family homes, then resold at a significant mark-up. So if someone wants a single-family home in a certain area, it's not that hard to address even when the supply is low.

 

To bring this back on the subject of Scranton Peninsula, if you make the peninsula a TIF district that funds local policing, cleaning and maintenance, you can provide an attractive setting for prospective residents who demand high-end single-family homes (give me some Beacon Hill-style townhomes!) in better living conditions through local governance that is willing to pay attention to details.

What neighborhood in Cleveland are you living in if you want to be as close to downtown as Scranton Peninsula would provide, in a single family house and a good neighborhood? (Lakewood doesn’t count. That ain’t Cleveland)

 

Moving back to the topic, I love the idea. I think it could really be a dynamic neighborhood

33 minutes ago, cadmen said:

Scranton peninsula has the potential to be one of the most desirable neighborhoods due to its geography. But what is under that surface soil? Has it been cleaned enough for human habitation? 

That’s a good question

9 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

That’s a good question

Lets start a gofundme for the Phase 1 ESA. Honestly though, it wouldn't be too difficult to dig up what might be lurking under there based on old documents and stuff that the library most likely has. 

4 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Lets start a gofundme for the Phase 1 ESA. Honestly though, it wouldn't be too difficult to dig up what might be lurking under there based on old documents and stuff that the library most likely has. 

I would hope they would’ve already done that before making plans

Republic Steel used to make Nuts & Bolts down there. Probably pretty standard Cleveland remediation. If they could put single family homes at Battery Park, they could put them here no doubt.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourne-Fuller_Company

 

Quote

In 1893 Cleveland's production of nuts and bolts surpassed all other American cities. Upson Nut Company (in 1864 it was called the Union Nut Company) was a foremost maker of cold and hot pressed and forged nuts, bolts and washers.

 

Finished steel was delivered from Republic's Youngstown plant to Upson's plant on 1970 Carter Road in Cleveland. Bourne-Fuller then became the nut and bolt division of Republic. Republic consolidated its operations by closing or revamping its smaller plants of which Bourne-Fuller was one, although with Upson's open hearths in downtown Cleveland and a capacity of 240,000 tons a year of ingot steel production, it gave Republic a bolt and nut manufacturing business. In 1984, Republic Steel was merged with Jones Laughlin Steel Company to form LTV Steel and ultimately, the Upson Nut Plant was shut down.

 

Edited June 10, 20214 yr by mu2010

On 4/13/2021 at 5:37 PM, tykaps said:

"Grant said discussions with developers, particularly apartment developers, have heated up over the past two months."

That's a promising piece of news, not only on the future of Scranton Peninsula, but for apartment development in the whole city. Let's just hope that the next developer puts in more care compared to NRP's apartment proposal.

With the posts and reporting of several UO Members over the last several months showing the increased interest of both local and out of town apartment developers interested in redeveloping the Scranton Peninsula.  With both Brewdog and perhaps even Great Lakes Brewing both expanding there.  And NOW with the City rezoning the area with a Urban Overlay District that will I believe greatly reduce parking requirements.  I'm getting the impression that SOMETHING REALLY BIG is brewing underneath the surface....

6 hours ago, GISguy said:

Lets start a gofundme for the Phase 1 ESA. Honestly though, it wouldn't be too difficult to dig up what might be lurking under there based on old documents and stuff that the library most likely has. 

 

Forest City did the phase 1 before selling it to Thunderbird's partners. 

13 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

With the posts and reporting of several UO Members over the last several months showing the increased interest of both local and out of town apartment developers interested in redeveloping the Scranton Peninsula.  With both Brewdog and perhaps even Great Lakes Brewing both expanding there.  And NOW with the City rezoning the area with a Urban Overlay District that will I believe greatly reduce parking requirements.  I'm getting the impression that SOMETHING REALLY BIG is brewing underneath the surface....

 

I think the Thunderbird renderings looked so great that ever since then there's been quite a letdown. I say this even with Brewdog opening. But I sure hope you're right! 

An opinion piece from cleveland.com on creating a shipping channel through Scranton peninsula

 

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2021/08/a-scranton-channel-for-better-cuyahoga-river-navigation-should-be-part-of-the-citys-future-r-ray-saikus.html

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

An opinion piece from cleveland.com on creating a shipping channel through Scranton peninsula

 

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2021/08/a-scranton-channel-for-better-cuyahoga-river-navigation-should-be-part-of-the-citys-future-r-ray-saikus.html

No chance this happens. It may be "undeveloped" land right now, but this would destroy Great Lakes Brewery's land that they plan on using. It would also disconnect the Towpath trail that goes through the peninsula. It would also sever the peninsula's connections to Ohio City and Tremont, and with their support for Thunderbird, there's no way the city supports this.

15 minutes ago, tykaps said:

No chance this happens. It may be "undeveloped" land right now, but this would destroy Great Lakes Brewery's land that they plan on using. It would also disconnect the Towpath trail that goes through the peninsula. It would also sever the peninsula's connections to Ohio City and Tremont, and with their support for Thunderbird, there's no way the city supports this.

I was going to post this article, but I didn’t want to spread the stupidity…

On 6/10/2021 at 5:22 PM, mu2010 said:

Republic Steel used to make Nuts & Bolts down there. Probably pretty standard Cleveland remediation. If they could put single family homes at Battery Park, they could put them here no doubt.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourne-Fuller_Company

 

 

If they were plating the nuts and bolts there, there could be issues with cadmium, as well as cyanide from the plating processes.

4 hours ago, Luke_S said:

An opinion piece from cleveland.com on creating a shipping channel through Scranton peninsula

 

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2021/08/a-scranton-channel-for-better-cuyahoga-river-navigation-should-be-part-of-the-citys-future-r-ray-saikus.html

I’ll play along: I agree this is a total long shot to happen but the leftover river channel could then be narrowed into a canal and collision bend could be appropriately narrowed as well with more water-front land to take advantage of and much more accessible to whatever the Riverview phase of TC Bedrock can achieve. It’s not a total loss IMO IF it is deemed necessary by the Port. Maybe someone more savvy with Google Maps or whatnot could come up with something along those lines.

*I am in no way advocating for this proposal, just pointing out how it wouldn’t be a total loss.

Edited August 1, 20213 yr by CleCaneFan

49 minutes ago, CleCaneFan said:

I’ll play along: I agree this is a total long shot to happen but the leftover river channel could then be narrowed into a canal and collision bend could be appropriately narrowed as well with more water-front land to take advantage of and much more accessible to whatever the Riverview phase of TC Bedrock can achieve. It’s not a total loss IMO IF it is deemed necessary by the Port. Maybe someone more savvy with Google Maps or whatnot could come up with something along those lines.

*I am in no way advocating for this proposal, just pointing out how it wouldn’t be a total loss.

Or the old curved channel could be left as is, but crossed with much lower bridges that are bike/pedestrian friendly since they only need allow the pleasure craft to clear under them.   It would be a great "lagoon" for rowing, etc.  

Yeah, the guy fails to include the costs of two new lift bridges for Carter and Scranton Rds. Pretty large omission.

10 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Yeah, the guy fails to include the costs of two new lift bridges for Carter and Scranton Rds. Pretty large omission.

Yeah, he didn’t mention those; replacing both would probably be tens of millions$, though maybe you could get away with just building one, idk.

I think you could definitely get away with building just one lift bridge.

The Ray Saikus plan won a design competition years ago, I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

is it time to print up the ‘keep the cuyahoga river weird’ tee shirts?

Small blurb mention of Brewdog Cleveland.
 

 “Our beautiful new location in New Albany, Columbus is due to open a week before our US AGM which is on 28th August and Cleveland, Atlanta and our show stopping Las Vegas site are all progressing well.”

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/planet-brewdog-update-august-2021-james-watt/?trackingId=XDnMPnYHF8YhfoVbvqWnzg%3D%3D

Brew Dog now looking for a GM for the upcoming Cleveland location. It’s out there on LinkedIn if anyone wants to apply!

 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/300-unit-apartment-project-planned-scranton-peninsula

300 units is a nice number, but oh man, are those ugly and unimaginative. they fit right into a complex at the outer periphery of an urban area--where it solely exists to house people as opposed to being a place where people want to live. with such a rare and unique setting, the buidling should be a far-better designed. And if the developers had a little guts they'd make at least one or two of the bldgs condos.

Edited October 11, 20213 yr by Pugu

Great news, but aren’t Dimit usually better than this?

12 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

Great news, but aren’t Dimit usually better than this?

Is it possible for someone to post a picture of the design? I can’t get past the pay wall. Thank you.

4 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

Is it possible for someone to post a picture of the design? I can’t get past the pay wall. Thank you.

 

Uh, Silverhills at Thunderbird ?!?

 

The architecture and the site plan are horrible. The overall Thunderbird site plan was designed in a way to maintain viewsheds of the water from both sides of Carter Rd. This suburban outlot parcel design kills any sort of viewshed. 

13 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

Great news, but aren’t Dimit usually better than this?

Usually a lot better... but the design is ultimately up to whoever is developing it.

2 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

Is it possible for someone to post a picture of the design? I can’t get past the pay wall. Thank you.

 

I think this site might be cursed to have unimaginative and repetitive architecture.

8 minutes ago, 3231 said:

Uh, Silverhills at Thunderbird ?!?

 

The architecture and the site plan are horrible. The overall Thunderbird site plan was designed in a way to maintain viewsheds of the water from both sides of Carter Rd. This suburban outlot parcel design kills any sort of viewshed. 

Is the site plan posted somewhere?

'Glad for the housing, but "Nothing to see here folks."  - No, really, nothing to see. 

This is where the Goodtime III can speed a little faster along its course up the river, 'til it arrives at something worth passengers looking up from their phones.

Edited October 11, 20213 yr by ExPatClevGuy

More info and more renderings:

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2021/10/developers-plan-to-build-300-apartments-on-scranton-peninsula-near-downtown-cleveland.html