I never expected those rendering would come to life. It was part of a master plan from Perkins+Will and https://www.designdistill.com/news-blog/thunderbird-in-cleveland who I believe won an award for them back in 18. My biggest concern about SP is the other side where Scranton Averil is holding on to what seems to be from generation to generation. 

One positive thing about the NRP design is that the patios are inset. I always thought that is what we need in Cleveland. More inset balconies I hope they remain as part of the final design. I dislike the type of balconies that are part of the Iumen for instance. 

I look at these early buildings to be similar to any building in Cleveland being built during the early stages of a turnaround. The designs initially are going to be uninspiring but as interest in the neighborhood picks up and demand for housing skyrockets you'll see the designs reflect that and get better. I believe out of the West Side neighborhoods Ohio City has the best apartment designs consistently, I feel this could be the same down the line. 

14 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I look at these early buildings to be similar to any building in Cleveland being built during the early stages of a turnaround. The designs initially are going to be uninspiring but as interest in the neighborhood picks up and demand for housing skyrockets you'll see the designs reflect that and get better. I believe out of the West Side neighborhoods Ohio City has the best apartment designs consistently, I feel this could be the same down the line. 

The lack of any meaningful street grid on SP is the reason for these type of developments. Columbus peninsula though is ready built for a cool neighborhood. I think we’ll see that. Especially after Irishtown Bend Park is completed. 

 

If Perkins-Will actually wanted their vision built out, they would’ve/should’ve built out the street pattern to support it. And sold off/divided/marketed lots in smaller chunks. 

Edited February 3, 20223 yr by marty15

5 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

My mistake then.

 

New (to me) renders! Lol.

 

What @LlamaLawyerposted are the new renders.

Here ya go. Lots of images in the article...

 

 

NRP Group’s renews plans for Scranton Peninsula

By Ken Prendergast / February 3, 2022

 

One month ago, NEOtrans published news from two sources that NRP Group would reactivate its plans for a development with 300-plus residences on Scranton Peninsula in Cleveland’s Flats. Tomorrow, those plans are being presented to the City Planning Commission for final approval.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/02/03/nrp-groups-renews-plans-for-scranton-peninsula/

-

Edited February 3, 20223 yr by ExPatClevGuy

Glad to hear those plans are coming together.  Development in(on?) the peninsula would nicely compliment the Vision for the Valley master plan. 

NRP unveiling their attempt at the original Thunderbird design: 

 

 

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Here ya go. Lots of images in the article...

 

 

NRP Group’s renews plans for Scranton Peninsula

By Ken Prendergast / February 3, 2022

 

One month ago, NEOtrans published news from two sources that NRP Group would reactivate its plans for a development with 300-plus residences on Scranton Peninsula in Cleveland’s Flats. Tomorrow, those plans are being presented to the City Planning Commission for final approval.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/02/03/nrp-groups-renews-plans-for-scranton-peninsula/

Gotta love in the new picture the vision is to have essentially no parking lots besides what’s will be built with this NRP development. Somehow I doubt that.

Thanks for the article Ken. So the last picture shows the present configuration of the peninsula. There is still about half of it available for development. Without forcing me to dig through all the old posts about this piece of land what's your take on who still owns what? Is Scranton Averell still involved. I remember a Scaravelli group owned much of the land down there and were just sitting on it, rebuffing all inquiries to sell. It looks like a lot of it is still being used for storage or nondescript small industrial buildings. I guess my question is do you know who owns that land and if it's being used for much of anything currently? 

 

If nothing much is being done with it then the next round of development should take place there and hopefully be of better quality. 'Course I'm sure with the current plans the price of the remaining land will shoot up. I would think the time to make an offer would be sooner rather later. But it's not my money and I'm not a developer so what do I know?

Of the 80+ acres on Scranton Peninsula, 27 acres is for Thunderbird. Scranton-Averell owns the rest -- 53 +/- acres of it. They're the stick in the mud.

Land Value Tax!!

14 hours ago, KJP said:

Of the 80+ acres on Scranton Peninsula, 27 acres is for Thunderbird. Scranton-Averell owns the rest -- 53 +/- acres of it. They're the stick in the mud.

I remember an article from a long time ago which talked of Scaravelli offering to buy the Scranton-Averell portion of the peninsula for $20,000,000.  They declined.

 

The old-money which is part of the company may never sell.  I don't know how much pressure would be needed if they have the ability to turn that type of money down.

 

 

Both projects were given final approval at CPC this morning!  There was a caveat to come back and talk landscaping and site layout - sounds like it's still unclear what the plan is with the boardwalk, carter road right of way and the railroad property.  

12 minutes ago, RMB said:

Both projects were given final approval at CPC this morning!  There was a caveat to come back and talk landscaping and site layout - sounds like it's still unclear what the plan is with the boardwalk, carter road right of way and the railroad property.  

 

Yep. Developers of both projects were told to coordinate with each other and the city on those things and the connectivity with the river plus current and future trails.

 

Think about it. We're going to go from zero residents and few jobs to nearly 1,000 residents and possibly hundreds of jobs on Scranton Peninsula a couple of years from now.

I wonder if someone like The Metroparks could approach SA about donating some or all of the property. Keeping some strategic parcels for sale, I could use a lot more green with a lot of dense trees. Kind of a tribute to the lumber history of SP. There is still time to make this something other than a bunch of 5 over 2 buildings.

Edited February 4, 20223 yr by freethink

39 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Yep. Developers of both projects were told to coordinate with each other and the city on those things and the connectivity with the river plus current and future trails.

 

Think about it. We're going to go from zero residents and few jobs to nearly 1,000 residents and possibly hundreds of jobs on Scranton Peninsula a couple of years from now.

 

Adding 1000 cars to the area is really going to require some thought. Have any of these developers ever seen the intersection of Carter and Columbus Rd. when the bridge is up? This volume will add to what already is an absolute disaster. But thus far, I have heard no discussion along that regard. I honestly don't know whose responsibility that will be.

4 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I remember an article from a long time ago which talked of Scaravelli offering to buy the Scranton-Averell portion of the peninsula for $20,000,000.  They declined.

 

The old-money which is part of the company may never sell.  I don't know how much pressure would be needed if they have the ability to turn that type of money down.

 

 

I'd be curious to see how the S-A real estate taxes are affected by the Thunderbird developments. Maybe increased taxes could incentivize them to part with the land. 

2 hours ago, RMB said:

boardwalk

Was there any discussion of a boardwalk? Is that definitely part of the plan? 

34 minutes ago, 3231 said:

I'd be curious to see how the S-A real estate taxes are affected by the Thunderbird developments. Maybe increased taxes could incentivize them to part with the land. 

I'm  no expert but I wonder if the shareholders are holding on to the land for some sort of income tax reason.  Maybe they and their advisors have structured their various holdings over the years in a manner that the SA lands are valuable for only that reason.  I cannot imagine the actual income from leaseholds on the land is that great, especially given the age and condition of many of the buildings.  Of course I am sure the company does not spend much in the way maintenance but there are administrative costs and property taxes.  Again just throwing this out as speculation.

Edited February 4, 20223 yr by Htsguy

The thunderbird group has retained ownership of the riverfront parcels, and the original master plan shows a boardwalk.  I assume this would require substantial public funding.  Not sure the state of the bulkheads there but it could be rolled into one.  

30 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Was there any discussion of a boardwalk? Is that definitely part of the plan? 

There was actually a lot of discussion along this end. As RMB said, thats thunderbird group's property. Haviland of Flats Forward seems to be coordinating things in some capacity. Because it was not entirely clear how that would work between developers, it was suggested that someone needs to take the lead and oversee it.

 

Aside from that, Fluker and McCormormick were adamant that multi-modal transportation (e.g. greenway trail connections, electric vehicle parking, ride share drop-off, etc) be carefully planned. I think there was an "asterisks" on the approval along those lines. They seem keen on not Fing this up.

18 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I'm  no expert but I wonder if the shareholders are holding on to the land for some sort of income tax reason.  Maybe they and their advisors have structured their various holdings over the years in a manner that the SA lands are valuable for only that reason.  I cannot imagine the actual income from leaseholds on the land is that great, especially given the age and condition of many of the buildings.  Of course I am sure the company does not spend much in the way maintenance but there are administrative costs and property taxes.  Again just throwing this out as speculation.

The biggest income tax benefit for owning real estate would be depreciation. But since their holdings are mostly land there wouldn't be anything to depreciate. I might be missing something though.

1 hour ago, 3231 said:

I'd be curious to see how the S-A real estate taxes are affected by the Thunderbird developments. Maybe increased taxes could incentivize them to part with the land. 

The Port used eminent domain to secure hold out parcels for the FEB development. If it comes to that……..

5 hours ago, freefourur said:

The biggest income tax benefit for owning real estate would be depreciation. But since their holdings are mostly land there wouldn't be anything to depreciate. I might be missing something though.

 

Would there be enough depreciation on land that S-A has owned for perhaps 100 years under the same entity? And that doesn't include their ancestors which held it for another 100 years further back.

 

Perhaps development on S-A's neighboring properties would increase the value and thus the taxes of theirs? If so, maybe that might encourage them to sell it. But some of S-A's shoulders barely even have a pulse.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Would there be enough depreciation on land that S-A has owned for perhaps 100 years under the same entity? And that doesn't include their ancestors which held it for another 100 years further back.

 

Perhaps development on S-A's neighboring properties would increase the value and thus the taxes of theirs? If so, maybe that might encourage them to sell it. But some of S-A's shoulders barely even have a pulse.

You can't depreciate land at all. But even structures wouldn't have any depreciation remaining.

When I first posed the question above I was thinking more in the line of business losses from SA that they could use to offset other investment gains... but again don't have a clue how things like that are/can be structured.  Again, just an uneducated speculative thought.  Could be they are just irrational a...holes.

30 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

 Could be they are just irrational a...holes.

Occam's razor

Scranton Peninsula is a complete blank slate - there is a huge opportunity to create a vibrant and dense urban neighborhood. Unfortunately what's been approved so far is anti-urban and really nothing more than suburban apartment complexes plopped in a big city. Minimal to no ground level retail, buildings not built up to the street, massive parking. 

 

What are the height limits in this area? Are both the Silverhills and NRP projects building to the max allowed?

Exactly!

 

One more level on the parking deck and they could eliminate all that surface parking along the proposed greenway trail, freeing it up for housing to front the trail.

14 minutes ago, marty15 said:

One more level on the parking deck and they could eliminate all that surface parking along the proposed greenway trail, freeing it up for housing to front the trail.

And/or more greenery, considering they are calling it a greenway trail. 

I hope the "bike route" is not just sharrows.  Kinda nebulous, but hey anything is better than Carter road's present state.

Can't say I'm a fan of all of that parking along the river's edge, but nice work on the plan.  

12 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Can't say I'm a fan of all of that parking along the river's edge, but nice work on the plan.  

 

I don't think any of that parking is close to the river if I understand it correctly. I believe that curve is the old railroad tracks. Pardon my awful MS Paint skills but I believe this is the layout no?

 

4 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

I don't think any of that parking is close to the river if I understand it correctly. I believe that curve is the old railroad tracks. Pardon my awful MS Paint skills but I believe this is the layout no?

 

 

HA!!!

 

Thanks!  That makes things a WHOLE lot better.  Still not much of a fan of that much surface parking- this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to create an urban neighborhood from scratch.  Surface parking should be kept to a minimum, IMO.

Back in Decemger Neo-Trans reported that Great Lakes Brewing filed permits with the city to begin preliminary site work at the property they own on Scranton Peninsula.  It was described as leveling and clearing bushes/trees from the property. It would also be seeded.  It was suggested that construction could start in 6 months. Has anyone seen any movement on this, trucks/bulldozers.  How awesome would it be to have 3 projects all being constructed at about the same time. @KJP have anymore permits been submitted since?

 

24 minutes ago, freethink said:

Back in Decemger Neo-Trans reported that Great Lakes Brewing filed permits with the city to begin preliminary site work at the property they own on Scranton Peninsula.  It was described as leveling and clearing bushes/trees from the property. It would also be seeded.  It was suggested that construction could start in 6 months. Has anyone seen any movement on this, trucks/bulldozers.  How awesome would it be to have 3 projects all being constructed at about the same time. @KJP have anymore permits been submitted since?

 

 

The application is still pending. I checked the processing status which shows it's at City Planning for a zoning review, which means it's still very early on in the steps it has to go through before permit issuance. Very disappointing to see it hasn't progressed further in three months.

Maybe the lack of progress is due to everyone involved sampling the wares a little too much. I know that slows me down.

Looks like NRP Group is putting itself into position to be the first of Scranton Peninsula's major projects (NRP, Silverhills, FCBC) to break ground. The Peninsula is the subject of two new-construction permit applications submitted for 172,449 SF of new (apartments) construction at 1953 Carter and 11,675 of new (townhouses) construction at 1961 Carter. Both were submitted by Donald Fix, Senior Manager, Horizontal Design & Entitlements at NRP Group.

University Circle now vs. 15 years ago is basically unrecognizable. Dramatic transformation.

 

But I've got a feeling Scranton Peninsula is about to have a more dramatic transformation, and maybe in half the time.

34 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

University Circle now vs. 15 years ago is basically unrecognizable. Dramatic transformation.

 

But I've got a feeling Scranton Peninsula is about to have a more dramatic transformation, and maybe in half the time.

 

I certainly hope you're right. I think the timeframe might not be as rapid as you think, though, given the environmental remediation steps that will have to be taken at most sites.

 

To your point, though, I think once momentum starts, development in the area will be exponential. 

4 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I certainly hope you're right. I think the timeframe might not be as rapid as you think, though, given the environmental remediation steps that will have to be taken at most sites.

 

To your point, though, I think once momentum starts, development in the area will be exponential. 

And don't forget about a little company called Scranton-Averell which can't even be bothered to answer its telephone let alone negotiate a property sale.

8 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

And don't forget about a little company called Scranton-Averell which can't even be bothered to answer its telephone let alone negotiate a property sale.

 

In their defense, has anyone tried a telegraph yet? We might need to use mediums they're familiar and comfortable with.

Edited March 30, 20223 yr by infrafreak

29 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I certainly hope you're right. I think the timeframe might not be as rapid as you think, though, given the environmental remediation steps that will have to be taken at most sites.

 

To your point, though, I think once momentum starts, development in the area will be exponential. 

I have basically zero idea the gravity of the environmental concerns on the peninsula, so I'm curious if you know. Are we talking "due diligence takes an extra month" or "no lender in their right minds would finance a project?"

24 minutes ago, infrafreak said:

 

In their defense, has anyone tried a telegraph yet? We might need to use mediums they're familiar and comfortable with.

At this rate...they may need to have a seance!

43 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I have basically zero idea the gravity of the environmental concerns on the peninsula, so I'm curious if you know. Are we talking "due diligence takes an extra month" or "no lender in their right minds would finance a project?"

 

I think it may be dependent on the parcel - but due diligence is going to be necessary for virtually the entire peninsula, given the industrial history

6 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think it may be dependent on the parcel - but due diligence is going to be necessary for virtually the entire peninsula, given the industrial history

 

This has been clear along, though the clear potential of the property in an ideal world has caused a bit of pollyannaism.

 

Also the soil stability is going to have to be closely reviewed, across the board.

On 3/30/2022 at 8:52 AM, KJP said:

Looks like NRP Group is putting itself into position to be the first of Scranton Peninsula's major projects (NRP, Silverhills, FCBC) to break ground. The Peninsula is the subject of two new-construction permit applications submitted for 172,449 SF of new (apartments) construction at 1953 Carter and 11,675 of new (townhouses) construction at 1961 Carter. Both were submitted by Donald Fix, Senior Manager, Horizontal Design & Entitlements at NRP Group.

 

I spoke too soon. Today, Dimit Architects began submitting documents the city for its construction permit for the south building of the Silverhills development. They specified only the south building, which is the smaller of the two riverfront buildings. It's a 44,171 square foot structure offering 42 apartments in a four-story building. The owner is listed as ESH FLATS, LLC, 72 WYCHWOOD DR., MORELAND HILLS OH 44022.

 

This is going to be close as to which one sees construction start first.