Looks similar to this one

so … there arent any other newer style lift bridges that might work? 🤷‍♂️

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

so … there arent any other newer style lift bridges that might work? 🤷‍♂️

This one in Canada cost $38 million USD 7 years ago.
 

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3775456

I get that the bedrock is deep below the surface in Cleveland, but even with that obstacle, would it be possible to tunnel underneath instead of a bridge?  Any idea of the cost in comparison?  

2 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

I get that the bedrock is deep below the surface in Cleveland, but even with that obstacle, would it be possible to tunnel underneath instead of a bridge?  Any idea of the cost in comparison?  

 

interesting idea —

 

a tunnel for the cleve!

 

and hopefully not as swampy/creepy as the tunnels to get to the lakefront lol.

 

but seriously, i saw that a half mile long tbm bored double tunnel under the vistula river in gdansk, poland took 4yrs to build, opened in 2016 & cost $230M euros (i think that is around $290M in usa bux today).

 

Tunneling is almost always more expensive than bridging. A lot more.

8 hours ago, KJP said:

Tunneling is almost always more expensive than bridging. A lot more.

Yet in countries around the world I travel in these insane, massive tunnels.   The one in Brisbane is crazy it's like 5 miles long and designed to take commuter traffic into the CBD off city streets.    If only bridges and tunnels made our American oligarchs money like defense spending!  

 

Rant over...back to the Scranton! 

16 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

I get that the bedrock is deep below the surface in Cleveland, but even with that obstacle, would it be possible to tunnel underneath instead of a bridge?  Any idea of the cost in comparison?  

There's also might be geometry issues with depth and approach angles. I'm not sure how deep the tunnel would have to be, or what the maximum ascent angle that would be allowed, but I wouldn't be surprised if once you do the math the tunnel would end up exiting past Scranton Peninsula anyway. 

With how difficult it will be to resurrect a bridge here, it seems like the perfect opportunity to design the Scranton Peninsula as a car-light neighborhood.  Assuming the Flats Industrial Railroad becomes a bike/pedestrian trail, the peninsula would have great car-free access all around the perimeter and right down the middle.  It's pretty much guaranteed to be traffic constrained anyway by the capacity of Carter and Scranton.

 

I'm not sure what best practices would be to make that happen, but I think it would be cool and unique to have such a large area actually tailored to people instead of cars.

 

apparantly lift bridges are not always cheaper than tunneling.

 

the two track nj rairitan river lift bridge for rail, messed up by sandy, is being replaced for around $519M, almost double the polish tunnel:

 

 

 

27 Jul 22 

Low bidder named for new US lift bridge

 

The apparent low bidder has been announced for the replacement of the Raritan River Bridge in New Jersey, USA.

 

Tutor Perini submitted a bid of approximately US$519m for the project to replace an ageing swing bridge that was damaged by Superstorm Sandy in 2012.more:

https://www.bridgeweb.com/Low-bidder-named-for-new-US-lift-bridge/8876

 

 

and a few more fairly recent lift bridge projects i found --

 

the new wittpenn lift for cars in nj cost $600M, including all approaches, and opened in 2021 

galveston causeway rail lift bridge was $80M in 2012 ($105M today)

pont bacalan-bastide vertical lift rail bridge in bordeaux was $160M euros in 2012 ($212 today, aka $232 usa i think). overkill, but impressive lol.

kattwyck double track rail lift bridge in hamburg was $270M euros in 2020

 

4 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

apparantly lift bridges are not always cheaper than tunneling.

 

the two track nj rairitan river lift bridge for rail, messed up by sandy, is being replaced for around $519M, almost double the polish tunnel:

 

 

 

27 Jul 22 

Low bidder named for new US lift bridge

 

The apparent low bidder has been announced for the replacement of the Raritan River Bridge in New Jersey, USA.

 

Tutor Perini submitted a bid of approximately US$519m for the project to replace an ageing swing bridge that was damaged by Superstorm Sandy in 2012.more:

https://www.bridgeweb.com/Low-bidder-named-for-new-US-lift-bridge/8876

 

 

and a few more fairly recent lift bridge projects i found --

 

the new wittpenn lift for cars in nj cost $600M, including all approaches, and opened in 2021 

galveston causeway rail lift bridge was $80M in 2012 ($105M today)

pont bacalan-bastide vertical lift rail bridge in bordeaux was $160M euros in 2012 ($212 today, aka $232 usa i think). overkill, but impressive lol.

kattwyck double track rail lift bridge in hamburg was $270M euros in 2020

 

So it sounds like $60 million is a good deal. It’s a shame we just didn’t maintain it properly.

 

what was weird in poking around on the interwebs was how hard new lift bridges were to find.

 

almost everything you that pops up is very old.

 

like verrrry old.

 

it's as impressive for the solid construction back then as it is rather frightening for all of us today.

Does anyone really think that a tunnel under the river that's open to the public wouldn't rapidly turn into a dank, trash-strewn, graffiti covered urban nightmare?

6 hours ago, Ethan said:

There's also might be geometry issues with depth and approach angles. I'm not sure how deep the tunnel would have to be, or what the maximum ascent angle that would be allowed, but I wouldn't be surprised if once you do the math the tunnel would end up exiting past Scranton Peninsula anyway. 

The river is dredged to 29' and it's not all that wide, so that would be a helluva short/deep tunnel!    One would assume they would have to build it at least 20-25' below the river bed?  

Just redo the current bridge instead of demo.  Problem solved (except for the cost- but hey, there could be money somewhere for it).

10 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

The river is dredged to 29' and it's not all that wide, so that would be a helluva short/deep tunnel!    One would assume they would have to build it at least 20-25' below the river bed?  

Some back of the envelope math, to go down 50' by either car or ADA slope standards would put you further than 600' from the river bank. For context, at it's narrowest point the peninsula is less than 1200' wide. A tunnel might be possible but doesn't make sense to me. Especially since we'd probably need to go deeper than 50' since I'm not even accounting for tunnel height here. 

1 hour ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

Just redo the current bridge instead of demo.  Problem solved (except for the cost- but hey, there could be money somewhere for it).

Use an industrial fund:  issue bonds to rehab the bridge and charge the Scranton Peninsula developers/owners the cost amortizing the bonds, payable over 20 years or so. The bridge would certainly enhance the value of their properties.

I had an amusing yet wacko thought.  Leave the bridge permanently raised and build small footprint, parking garage like corkscrew ramp approaches on both sides.  No need to fix its lift mechanisms.  Cleveland's Lombard St. attraction.

Edited June 29, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus

Now the Flats RR bridge - that would be a cool pedestrian bridge.  

 

 

there are plenty of cool bridges, but don't forget that even a short, dank tunnel could be made into a genuine attraction ---

 

 

 

 

On 6/27/2023 at 1:40 PM, LibertyBlvd said:

Looks similar to this one

You mean the Frank Jackson Bridge?

17 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

there are plenty of cool bridges, but don't forget that even a short, dank tunnel could be made into a genuine attraction ---

 

 

 

 

 

I think that a better location for a tunnel would be under the Cuyahoga River along the shoreway.  The Shoreway could run along the railroad tracks - tunnel under the river.  The Main Ave Bridge could be removed and open up a lot of land for development.

Yea the river is way too deep to effectively tunnel under. 23+ foot depth according to the state's measurements. 

Or.

8 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Or.

I would love this!!!

7 minutes ago, G00pie said:

I would love this!!!

Would be kind of fun, should South Flats, Scranton, Bedrock riverfront plan all get built out connected by something like this traversing the valley. Up to East and West Bank. 

1 minute ago, marty15 said:

Would be kind of fun, should South Flats, Scranton, Bedrock riverfront plan all get built out connected by something like this traversing the valley. Up to East and West Bank. 

Between something like this and reactivating the old subway channels under the bridge it could really help connect the East and west banks for pedestrians.

2 hours ago, TR said:

I think that a better location for a tunnel would be under the Cuyahoga River along the shoreway.  The Shoreway could run along the railroad tracks - tunnel under the river.  The Main Ave Bridge could be removed and open up a lot of land for development.

I agree. And also put the rail tracks in the tunnel so the lift bridge could also be removed.  And depending on how far east the tunnel goes, maybe it eliminates the need for a land bridge to the harbor.

 

Edited June 29, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

I don't know why we'd get rid of such a prized possession, it's an iconic bridge in an area that brought an iconic turning point to Cleveland and the rest of the Rust-Belt's history. There's got to be a historical society that deals in refurbishing and preserving these large scale monuments. I mean FFS they can refurbish and keep a massive steam operated fog horn in commission year by year, why cant we do it for a lift bridge. It just requires a little effort. Hell I'd actually like to see the jack knife bridges back in operation too. Why isn't there a bridgeworks commission in town if we're literally made of bridges.

Edited July 1, 20231 yr by tastybunns

15 hours ago, tastybunns said:

I don't know why we'd get rid of such a prized possession, it's an iconic bridge in an area that brought an iconic turning point to Cleveland and the rest of the Rust-Belt's history. There's got to be a historical society that deals in refurbishing and preserving these large scale monuments. I mean FFS they can refurbish and keep a massive steam operated fog horn in commission year by year, why cant we do it for a lift bridge. It just requires a little effort. Hell I'd actually like to see the jack knife bridges back in operation too. Why isn't there a bridgeworks commission in town if we're literally made of bridges.

 

While I appreciate the passion here, tatstybunns, I'm sorry, but this is overly simplistic. "It just requires a little effort" ??? ... sure, some elbow grease will help here, let's all rebuild the bridge together! No, it requires funding. More like a little effort and $50+ million dollars. Which I sure don't have lying around. Even if you argue it should hav been "a little effort" over the last couple of decades while it rotted, there was still a financial obligation that would have had to be constantly met, as things were replaced or stabilized or repaired, etc.

I have friends involved in historical societies and most of them are incredibly small, with budgets like $10,000 or less. Probably the largest in this area (I'd think by a long shot) is the Western Reserve Historical Society, and their TOTAL ASSETS (not annual expenditures) are like $43 million. So would you entirely bankrupt this local institution to pay for 85% of the repair of one of our many bridges? Please do find some historical societies like you mention, that'd be a wonderful win ... but I'm pretty certain that nothing like what you imagine exists.

And lastly, I love the idea of a bridgework commission. But who would fund it? That's the key. Not trying to be a smart ass, just realistic. I'm frustrated, too, but there simply aren't easy answers here. 😥

On 6/29/2023 at 12:29 PM, marty15 said:

Or.

 

if this 2013 aerial tram idea … ‘memba?!  🎪 … had been realized, it would be time for an extension:

 

 

https://www.gondolaproject.com/category/proposals-concepts/cleveland-skylift/

1 hour ago, Paul in Cleveland said:

 

While I appreciate the passion here, tatstybunns, I'm sorry, but this is overly simplistic. "It just requires a little effort" ??? ... sure, some elbow grease will help here, let's all rebuild the bridge together! No, it requires funding. More like a little effort and $50+ million dollars. Which I sure don't have lying around. Even if you argue it should hav been "a little effort" over the last couple of decades while it rotted, there was still a financial obligation that would have had to be constantly met, as things were replaced or stabilized or repaired, etc.

I have friends involved in historical societies and most of them are incredibly small, with budgets like $10,000 or less. Probably the largest in this area (I'd think by a long shot) is the Western Reserve Historical Society, and their TOTAL ASSETS (not annual expenditures) are like $43 million. So would you entirely bankrupt this local institution to pay for 85% of the repair of one of our many bridges? Please do find some historical societies like you mention, that'd be a wonderful win ... but I'm pretty certain that nothing like what you imagine exists.

And lastly, I love the idea of a bridgework commission. But who would fund it? That's the key. Not trying to be a smart ass, just realistic. I'm frustrated, too, but there simply aren't easy answers here. 😥

In the presentation the city never really lays out what it would cost to rehab and put the bridge back into service vs demolition and constructing a similar structure in it's place.   

 

There is a figure of $58 million to reconstruct everything including the viaduct, but is the viaduct really even necessary?  

 

The City of Cleveland can be woefully myopic.   Within 10 years Scranton will likely be a bustling residential, restaurant and recreation area.   There will need to be vehicle access to downtown.    

20 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

 

if this 2013 aerial tram idea … ‘memba?!  🎪 … had been realized, it would be time for an extension:

 

 

https://www.gondolaproject.com/category/proposals-concepts/cleveland-skylift/

I still think it’s a cool idea

3 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

In the presentation the city never really lays out what it would cost to rehab and put the bridge back into service vs demolition and constructing a similar structure in it's place.   

 

There is a figure of $58 million to reconstruct everything including the viaduct, but is the viaduct really even necessary?  

 

The City of Cleveland can be woefully myopic.   Within 10 years Scranton will likely be a bustling residential, restaurant and recreation area.   There will need to be vehicle access to downtown.    

 

there already is vehicle access downtown from Scranton 

7 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

 

there already is vehicle access downtown from Scranton 

I should have said *more* access.    

^ i dk the answer, but its this winding river layout that makes cleveland its own scenic and quirky, individualistic kind of place — and hopefully leads to creative, unique transportation and connectivity solutions.

 

new lift bridges? aerial trams? streetcars maybe?

 

 i dk, i dk. 🤷‍♂️

 

in many ways its an eviable problem to have though. its pretty hard to build true character out of nothing. probably impossible.

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 20231 yr by mrnyc

Maybe that idea to straighten the river and fill in the crooked section wasn't so crazy. It would have eliminated some of the bridges.

11 hours ago, Paul in Cleveland said:

 

While I appreciate the passion here, tatstybunns, I'm sorry, but this is overly simplistic. "It just requires a little effort" ??? ... sure, some elbow grease will help here, let's all rebuild the bridge together! No, it requires funding. More like a little effort and $50+ million dollars. Which I sure don't have lying around. Even if you argue it should hav been "a little effort" over the last couple of decades while it rotted, there was still a financial obligation that would have had to be constantly met, as things were replaced or stabilized or repaired, etc.

I have friends involved in historical societies and most of them are incredibly small, with budgets like $10,000 or less. Probably the largest in this area (I'd think by a long shot) is the Western Reserve Historical Society, and their TOTAL ASSETS (not annual expenditures) are like $43 million. So would you entirely bankrupt this local institution to pay for 85% of the repair of one of our many bridges? Please do find some historical societies like you mention, that'd be a wonderful win ... but I'm pretty certain that nothing like what you imagine exists.

And lastly, I love the idea of a bridgework commission. But who would fund it? That's the key. Not trying to be a smart ass, just realistic. I'm frustrated, too, but there simply aren't easy answers here. 😥

What can I say man, I miss being home. But my wishful thinking is that the town will be better when I get back home, not in pieces. If only there were historic tax credits even on DOT owned structures, I'm sure it would lessen the burden substantially for a structural refurbishment.
I like to stay optimistic which is why I use lines like "It just needs a little effort". I say it very loosely because there's multiple angles to everything. It's easy to think of bottom of the barrel solutions to an already aging problem, but I'm sure the city or state hasn't even gone through all the options yet. Its weirdly off-topic but "Meet The Robinsons" is my favorite movie, and if I'm in a hunch I watch it from time to time to get my inventive juices going. There's a couple references in here too.

Even if we weren't able to refurbish the bridge, I'm sure the remains of the lift towers would still look fantastic in place. If they didn't keep the remains of the towers, I'd be damned if they got rid of some of Cleveland's oldest steel. I find it shameful that we weren't prepared for these questions, which is why a bridgeworks sounds so good right now. I'm sure something will be brought up in opposition to the 'cost effective' way of doing things.

How are the new apartment buildings coming along?

On 7/2/2023 at 6:52 AM, sooner said:

How are the new apartment buildings coming along?

 

The concrete cores are up and foundation work looks to be almost complete on NRPs south building. The Silverhills building is still working on excavation. I have zero insider info but it seems they are finding some interesting relics under ground that may be increasing their timeline. 

 

Eagle Avenue Bridge needs to be saved and ideally restored to it's intended use. Maybe the state can come up with some money? Residential developments are under way and I'm assuming much more to follow (eventually). Not to mention plans for the South Flats. Time to invest in some infrastructure here and it might as well be this beauty. I honestly can't imagine this view without Eagle Avenue Bridge here. 

(photo from 7/3)

 

Edited July 5, 20231 yr by viscomi

Too late.

Start a go fund me…maybe people from around the world would chip in…but its a tall order nonetheless 

Similar angle from today (7-8-23)

This is too bold of an idea for Cleveland, but in thinking more about the closing of the Eagle Ave. bridge, rather than replacement, I'd be more interested in something similar to this proposed "Tower of the Sun" skyscraper/bridge project in Kazakhstan. I could see it with an arch, allowing boats to pass underneath, but with a public access elevators so people can pass from one side of the river to the other, with of course an observation deck on top. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrS9lpTL0qt/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

NRP Group apartments.

Still shocking to see things being built on Scranton. I love it.

Building permits were submitted this past week for the north building in the Silverhills development.