These is a lot more abandoned wasteland which will hopefully be developed in the near future.

Seeing the $2k price tag on the studios was more shocking to me. I can understand an expensive studio when you're paying to live a light-driving lifestyle in the middle of a busy and walkable area with a lot to do, but not on a Peninsula that won't be built up for another decade at minimum. But you're paying for a studio and likely a parking spot because you still have to drive/Uber everywhere. 

 

Brew Dog and Hooples are the only businesses within a 10 minute walk of your front door. 

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

.Brew Dog and Hooples are the only businesses within a 10 minute walk of your front door. 

Er, WSM and the entirety of Ohio City?

40 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

Er, WSM and the entirety of Ohio City?

Just to get to the WSM is a 20 minute walk with 100 ft hill of elevation gain. Add whatever time to get anywhere else in Ohio City, then back home. A very small % of Americans are going to be willing to to make that walk, and walk back home. Especially when you could easily pay less than $2k for a 1 or 2 bed apartment actually in Ohio City. 

Scooters, e-bikes, bicycles… the way to and from the peninsula without driving will adapt. 

I think you guys are missing @PlanCleveland initial point. If you’re going to spend $2000 for a studio, or as I like to call it a jail cell, you want the action right outside your door. Yes a lot of stuff is within walking distance, but it is a desolate walk at this point. You’re not looking into shop windows and like. Hopefully, at some point, they’ll be enough interest on the peninsula itself that makes a $2000 studio worth it.

I guess "worth it" will be determined shortly by the number of people willing to sign a lease for said $2000 studio.

5 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

Seeing the $2k price tag on the studios was more shocking to me. I can understand an expensive studio when you're paying to live a light-driving lifestyle in the middle of a busy and walkable area with a lot to do, but not on a Peninsula that won't be built up for another decade at minimum. But you're paying for a studio and likely a parking spot because you still have to drive/Uber everywhere. 

 

Brew Dog and Hooples are the only businesses within a 10 minute walk of your front door. 

 

The entire Flats East Bank is a 4-minute bike ride away (according to Google Maps) without going uphill at all. WSM is a 6-minute ride uphill. Heck, you could even get to Steelyard in 15 minutes, theoretically.

 

With a Red Line stop half a mile away and the Lake Link Trail literally next door, no able-bodied person would have to drive everywhere. That said this is definitely the wrong location for anyone in a wheelchair.

 

Not saying that there's any chance I'd consider paying that much, but the peninsula is a convenient sweet spot with easy access to downtown, Ohio City, and the Flats.

If any developer is ever able to get the fossils to give up their shares in the Scranton-Averell Company, they will have bought a veritable gold mine.

3 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I think you guys are missing @PlanCleveland initial point. If you’re going to spend $2000 for a studio, or as I like to call it a jail cell, you want the action right outside your door. Yes a lot of stuff is within walking distance, but it is a desolate walk at this point. You’re not looking into shop windows and like. Hopefully, at some point, they’ll be enough interest on the peninsula itself that makes a $2000 studio worth it.

 

From around 2010-2014, I paid around $1,600 for a studio in DC a good half-mile from any good amenities or the Metro. I also didn’t have a car. Not exactly apples to apples, of course, but I wouldn’t hesitate to do that again in the future. Not sure about the studio bit—would be hard to go back to that. All that said, we need higher wages in this region to reflect these rents. I paid $650 for a 1BR in Lakewood in 2010 and with my salary at the time, that was comfortable rent. Are there that many jobs paying enough to say the same for $2K?

@coneflower The salespeople at the Collins said they are using Intro and the Welleon as their comps for rent. Those places leased out very quickly. Studios at those places start at $1,425 and $1,421, respectively. That's $500 less than what they asking for the studios at the Collins. We shall see how patient NRP Group is.

So q1 QCEW 2024 data has Cuyahoga County median wage at 79k+ per year. That is an 18k increase from 2019. 2k per month is only 30% of 79k which is within a reasonable percentage. Q2 was released recently but I’m not referencing those because it includes summer job hiring which drops the median wage significantly, whereas q1 is more representative of annual wage. This also puts Cuyahoga right behind Hamilton for highest in the state.

^ keep in mind nationally wages have increased 17% for low wage earners since 1979 and 46% for highest wage earners. the rich keep rippin us off bad!

15 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

The entire Flats East Bank is a 4-minute bike ride away (according to Google Maps) without going uphill at all. WSM is a 6-minute ride uphill. Heck, you could even get to Steelyard in 15 minutes, theoretically.

 

With a Red Line stop half a mile away and the Lake Link Trail literally next door, no able-bodied person would have to drive everywhere. That said this is definitely the wrong location for anyone in a wheelchair.

 

Not saying that there's any chance I'd consider paying that much, but the peninsula is a convenient sweet spot with easy access to downtown, Ohio City, and the Flats.

I wouldn't have agreed with you until we explored the whole area last month and you're right, on a pinpoint map the peninsula is really the sweet spot to everthing on both sides. We were amazed as we sat at the bridge facing the peninsula, while it was up for passing river traffic, how all of the surrounding uphill areas on all sides appear really close from that river low point (seems like you can reach out and touch Bedrock Riverfront final phase next to the B&O RR historic station). During that wait at the bridge we were iniyially shocked within 5-10 minutes as 2 separate young ladies on foot approached to wait for the brige to be lowered. They seemed focused and aware of where they were going - not tourists - in their workout or yoga outfits with backpacks.  Given that postive sighting, I think the peninsula will be a huge success even with the higher $ entry point (I am sure there are incentives to expedite leasing).

18 hours ago, sonisharri said:

 

The entire Flats East Bank is a 4-minute bike ride away (according to Google Maps) without going uphill at all. WSM is a 6-minute ride uphill. Heck, you could even get to Steelyard in 15 minutes, theoretically.

 

With a Red Line stop half a mile away and the Lake Link Trail literally next door, no able-bodied person would have to drive everywhere. That said this is definitely the wrong location for anyone in a wheelchair.

 

Not saying that there's any chance I'd consider paying that much, but the peninsula is a convenient sweet spot with easy access to downtown, Ohio City, and the Flats.

To add to this. If all goes as planned the Scranton Peninsula will essentially be connected to one of the nicest parks in Ohio if not the Midwest once Irishtown bend is complete.

I feel like we're just missing each other. 

 

Again, yes I know it is NEAR everything, but it isn't NEXT to anything. 

 

I'm saying that I would expect the highest priced studios in the market to be right in the action, with essentially no walk/bike/transit time to get there other than basically walking out of the front door of your building. Not on a currently empty Peninsula surrounded on 3 sides by an empty 5 or 6 acre lot, vacated rail lines, a towing company lot, and run down vacant or scrap storage buildings. It's not like they'll even have a view of the river or anything with the other apartment building blocking the view. 

 

You can get a 1 or 2 bedroom instead of a studio that is actually next to or attached to these destinations or transit stops for less than the price of these studios. Dozens of places closer to Irishtown Bend, Ohio City, East Bank, Tremont, and every location or amenity mentioned above. You can get a cheaper 1 or 2 bed apartment closer to everything, other than Brew Dog

 

You can get a 2 bed 2 bath apartment at W25th lofts directly across the street from Irishtown Bend with a shorter walk to everything in Ohio City and a ton of transit connections. And many other rental options in Ohio City/Hingetown in the price range. 

 

Same with the Stonebridge apartments with 2 bed 2 bath and a balcony for $1775, where you walk out the door onto the parks and bike path, and a shorter walk/bike to the East Bank. 

 

Studios at the top of the hill starting at around $1350 in Waterford Bluffs.

 

Yes, it will be a nice location to live and is a short distance from a lot of things. But it is not a location that I would expect a top of the market $2k for studio in Cleveland. 

Edited November 24, 2024Nov 24 by PlanCleveland

6 hours ago, Willo said:

I wouldn't have agreed with you until we explored the whole area last month and you're right, on a pinpoint map the peninsula is really the sweet spot to everthing on both sides. We were amazed as we sat at the bridge facing the peninsula, while it was up for passing river traffic, how all of the surrounding uphill areas on all sides appear really close from that river low point (seems like you can reach out and touch Bedrock Riverfront final phase next to the B&O RR historic station). During that wait at the bridge we were iniyially shocked within 5-10 minutes as 2 separate young ladies on foot approached to wait for the brige to be lowered. They seemed focused and aware of where they were going - not tourists - in their workout or yoga outfits with backpacks.  Given that postive sighting, I think the peninsula will be a huge success even with the higher $ entry point (I am sure there are incentives to expedite leasing).

Foot traffic down there isn’t uncommon at all. I drive the peninsula on my way to the gym and almost always see a handful of people jogging or walking. 

 

However, I do agree with @PlanCleveland that it seems like a steep price to pay. When they’re comparing values to Intro and Welleon… both are in the heart of some of our most vibrant neighborhoods. I’m in Gordon Square, and I rarely go out to Tremont or even Ohio City because there are fun restaurants and bars right outside my door. 

 

I’m hopeful that the building’s developers know what the market needs better than I do.

Yeah it’s kinda crazy this new neighborhood sits in the middle of Ohio City, Tremont, and Downtown but lacks amenities within a 10 minute walk. 
 

I’ve altered my daily walk route to include going right down between the projects on Carter Rd. The scale is impressive but I doubt that number of units alone will really support neighborhood businesses. Although it’s a bit isolated the area does feel safe to me. I think the streetscape will hinder the broken windows/petty crimes some of us experience on the main streets of the other neighborhoods. They really need to get a plan together for the river path or even some kind of temporary sidewalk though. Walking on Carter is a mess. 

 

59 minutes ago, Henke said:

Foot traffic down there isn’t uncommon at all. I drive the peninsula on my way to the gym and almost always see a handful of people jogging or walking. 

 

However, I do agree with @PlanCleveland that it seems like a steep price to pay. When they’re comparing values to Intro and Welleon… both are in the heart of some of our most vibrant neighborhoods. I’m in Gordon Square, and I rarely go out to Tremont or even Ohio City because there are fun restaurants and bars right outside my door. 

 

I’m hopeful that the building’s developers know what the market needs better than I do.

They are probably pushing the market to max to see how it responds as they were one of the few to hang in there post Covid and supply chain crisis eras and plow ahead with construction. Especially since they are rushing to get a small part of the market now for cash flow while the rest is still under construction. We wish them well. The first tenants could probably extract some good concessions at the onset.

^ all of these are valid points but its literally a neighborhood from scratch and ya gotta start somewhere. get’em down there and just keep building. it looks like it will be isolated and a little dystopian for awhile, but it will fill out in time.  👍

To really (in the short-term) resolve this problem of being near but not close enough to walk to all the businesses; they should install a shuttle bus that’ll take renters/owners that live on the peninsula to downtown  and/or Ohio city or Tremont. 
 

The private bus could run on a 15 minute loop. 6am through 11pm on week days. Then 10am through 2:30am on weekends. 

10 hours ago, ClevelandNative said:

To really (in the short-term) resolve this problem of being near but not close enough to walk to all the businesses; they should install a shuttle bus that’ll take renters/owners that live on the peninsula to downtown  and/or Ohio city or Tremont. 
 

The private bus could run on a 15 minute loop. 6am through 11pm on week days. Then 10am through 2:30am on weekends. 

And would still be faster than the Healthliine BRT

It's a cool project but extremely small as a whole. I don't think the relatively few tenants will be sweating a quick drive to Ohio City. 

15 hours ago, mrnyc said:

^ all of these are valid points but its literally a neighborhood from scratch and ya gotta start somewhere. get’em down there and just keep building. it looks like it will be isolated and a little dystopian for awhile, but it will fill out in time.  👍

 

If we can encourage more retail and food with any newer developments that would be awesome. Tbh it's a fair point that there isn't much of this directly in the neighborhood (aside from Brewdog and hopefully GLBC). Hopefully the existing residential would make it more attractive.

20 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

I feel like we're just missing each other. 

 

Again, yes I know it is NEAR everything, but it isn't NEXT to anything. 

 

I'm saying that I would expect the highest priced studios in the market to be right in the action, with essentially no walk/bike/transit time to get there other than basically walking out of the front door of your building. Not on a currently empty Peninsula surrounded on 3 sides by an empty 5 or 6 acre lot, vacated rail lines, a towing company lot, and run down vacant or scrap storage buildings. It's not like they'll even have a view of the river or anything with the other apartment building blocking the view. 

 

You can get a 1 or 2 bedroom instead of a studio that is actually next to or attached to these destinations or transit stops for less than the price of these studios. Dozens of places closer to Irishtown Bend, Ohio City, East Bank, Tremont, and every location or amenity mentioned above. You can get a cheaper 1 or 2 bed apartment closer to everything, other than Brew Dog

 

You can get a 2 bed 2 bath apartment at W25th lofts directly across the street from Irishtown Bend with a shorter walk to everything in Ohio City and a ton of transit connections. And many other rental options in Ohio City/Hingetown in the price range. 

 

Same with the Stonebridge apartments with 2 bed 2 bath and a balcony for $1775, where you walk out the door onto the parks and bike path, and a shorter walk/bike to the East Bank. 

 

Studios at the top of the hill starting at around $1350 in Waterford Bluffs.

 

Yes, it will be a nice location to live and is a short distance from a lot of things. But it is not a location that I would expect a top of the market $2k for studio in Cleveland. 

 

I'm not too mad about the price because there's no chance I'd actually pay that much to live there. But either they'll be forced to lower the rent or people with money will decide that it's a nice sweet spot for shorter commutes.

 

If they can attract enough of the very well-off who don't mind a little commute to an empty peninsula surrounded by industrial buildings and vacant land just by marketing it as "luxury"—all the power to them. Now they're not competing for rent in the units closest to transit connections, employers, and amenities.

 

If we now get improved infrastructure, more restaurants, and a bigger tax base as a result, even better.

How much more readily available land is down there on Scranton to fill in the area, outside of the GLB block? I know everybody gave me a hard time about my warzone comment (ok you guys were funny I have to admit lol) but cmon if you've been down carter road recently you would know it's not far from the truth. It's a still a mess, you've got at least 10 vacant buildings that need to be razed, you've got empty plots overgrown and scattered with railroad tracks. It does kinda look like there was a battle for Brewdog (been a few times, it's worth the trek through the trenches lol). But that's ok, the area has been through alot of neglect over the years. And it's starting to come back!!

 

The new apartments look great no question,, but should that have really been the lead development in the area? While hey its better than nothing, I feel the city has got to stop allowing these developers to take a potentially prime block like that, privatize it and then lay down quickly built apartments - Just to grab revenue.

 

Just like all the Zaremba brothers townhomes they built off superior. Sure, there was nothing there before, but it's right off east 9th and the budding arts district, you took up all that space for 100 units maybe? If superior ever gets that facelift, this could have been a prime spot for a 20-25 story apartment building, or hotel, or prime office and retail,, I mean virtually anything but what they built. They had to shutter the CVS down there because it saw no foot-traffic. 

 

we are not Chicago I get it you have to be realistic - the city needs to start somewhere,, but I mean lead with a major development or wait for Bedrock (or GLB) to roll out. Am I crazy????

A step Giant Foods (owned by a Dutch company) took in the Washington DC area to avoid building full-sized grocery stores was to build gas stations with a food delivery area.  The shoppers order their grocery list on line and pick it up at the Giant gas station - cheaper than home delivery and more convenient that going some distance to a store - and maybe buy some gas as well. 

 

That approach might work on Scranton Peninsula while waiting for a larger population to support a Trader Joe's or something.

1 hour ago, markymark said:

How much more readily available land is down there on Scranton to fill in the area, outside of the GLB block? I know everybody gave me a hard time about my warzone comment (ok you guys were funny I have to admit lol) but cmon if you've been down carter road recently you would know it's not far from the truth. It's a still a mess, you've got at least 10 vacant buildings that need to be razed, you've got empty plots overgrown and scattered with railroad tracks. It does kinda look like there was a battle for Brewdog (been a few times, it's worth the trek through the trenches lol). But that's ok, the area has been through alot of neglect over the years. And it's starting to come back!!

 

The new apartments look great no question,, but should that have really been the lead development in the area? While hey its better than nothing, I feel the city has got to stop allowing these developers to take a potentially prime block like that, privatize it and then lay down quickly built apartments - Just to grab revenue.

 

Just like all the Zaremba brothers townhomes they built off superior. Sure, there was nothing there before, but it's right off east 9th and the budding arts district, you took up all that space for 100 units maybe? If superior ever gets that facelift, this could have been a prime spot for a 20-25 story apartment building, or hotel, or prime office and retail,, I mean virtually anything but what they built. They had to shutter the CVS down there because it saw no foot-traffic. 

 

we are not Chicago I get it you have to be realistic - the city needs to start somewhere,, but I mean lead with a major development or wait for Bedrock (or GLB) to roll out. Am I crazy????

If we squint and try to visualize the future…I think the dominoes will fall and all the sideline lurking developers will dive in once these 2 apartments communities are finished, if the neighboring 12 hillside million dollar homes happen (we saw the foundation started for the first one) https://neo-trans.blog/2024/02/05/flats-luxury-finally-coming-home/

and if the Irishtown Bend park is finished anywhere close to the design renderings. Also, imagine completion of all of the Metroparks work throughout the Flats basin, Bridgeworks to the north and the Bedrock Riverfront to the south of the peninsula (even the soccer stadium below that)..a drone will capture an impressive near continuous line of investment that 10 years ago would have seemed unimaginable. These are hopeful signs. Let’s try positivity - which is not a naturally occurring Cleveland trait - as Jameis Winston emoted on our behalf in the Thursday night snow globe game.

 

Is everything described in the first paragraph of @markymark post on Scranton-Averill land?  If yes it might take A LONG TIME for any of that to be developed.  As we know the investors have owned the property for over 200 years and are very secretive and not particularly rational.  Sort of like those property owners on Detroit who keep sitting on their land trying to secure above fair market prices.

Edited November 25, 2024Nov 25 by Htsguy

^ l think l see the answer to the problem here. They've owned the property for 200 years. They're very secretive, and don't respond when contacted. Maybe they're dead.

4 hours ago, Htsguy said:

Is everything described in the first paragraph of @markymark post on Scranton-Averill land?  If yes it might take A LONG TIME for any of that to be developed.  As we know the investors have owned the property for over 200 years and are very secretive and not particularly rational.  Sort of like those property owners on Detroit who keep sitting on their land trying to secure above fair market prices.

 

Based on this map (from a proposal to reroute the river), yes.

 

3 hours ago, cadmen said:

^ l think l see the answer to the problem here. They've owned the property for 200 years. They're very secretive, and don't respond when contacted. Maybe they're dead.

Found them in Grey Gardens with Edith 'Little Edie' Bouvier Beale (nee Scranton Averill).  

 

Edited November 26, 2024Nov 26 by Willo

Decided to get some pics since it was a balmy 38 degrees.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, MayDay said:

Decided to get some pics since it was a balmy 38 degrees.

 

 

 

Great pics, @MayDay!
These developments have already made a huge impact on the riverfront. Imagine how much the Peninsula and the overall riverfront could change within the next.decade with any luck. I’m optimistic.

1 hour ago, MayDay said:

Decided to get some pics since it was a balmy 38 degrees.

 

 

 

Truly transformational project(s).

Cleveland is not just a stop on the way back; Cleveland is back!

the city should go after scranton-averill via eminent domain or raise taxes in designated areas on vacant land.

 

light a fire under it to get them to develop or sell. 

 

i dk why they haven’t before? is s-a funding politicians behind the scenes to do nothing like parking lot owners do? 

^Eminent domain wouldn’t be the best way, as the city wouldn’t be able to take the land just to give it to someone else for development. The land HAS to have value with everything around it in its location. I don’t see how anything gets developed on the land owned by Scranton-Averill without them signing onto a land-lease agreement where they retain ownership but allow for development to be built on the land. This is done in other cities all the time in areas of value (or increasing value). It CAN be done here.

Edited December 15, 2024Dec 15 by Oldmanladyluck

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but do we have any inkling as to why they are so reticent to engage about the property? From what I've seen there isn't even a "not interested" response, just messages into the ether?

On 12/15/2024 at 9:46 AM, Jax said:

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but do we have any inkling as to why they are so reticent to engage about the property? From what I've seen there isn't even a "not interested" response, just messages into the ether?

If they are of an advanced age the calls to buy their land may not be getting thru and they may not have cell phones to the receive offers.

39 minutes ago, Willo said:

If they are of an advanced age the calls to buy their land may not be getting thru and they may not have cell phones to the receive offers.

Someone chain the gates to their property. See who responds.

From the red line

It has a name tag now

The Ratner's manage Scranton Averill for the trustees. Nobody is going to go after them.  

^Interesting…

On 12/24/2024 at 9:59 AM, mtnbikefan said:

The Ratner's manage Scranton Averill for the trustees. Nobody is going to go after them.  

Is local attorney Thomas Stickney no longer the trustee for the owners (whoever/wherever they ar) as KJP reported last year or so?

3 hours ago, Willo said:

Is local attorney Thomas Stickney no longer the trustee for the owners (whoever/wherever they ar) as KJP reported last year or so?

 

Stickney was in Rocky River and it appears that's still the address of record based on the website. So I assume he's still the guy. But there's some "new" (2017) companies (certainly newer than 1828 which is how old some of the oldest ancestor companies are in Scranton-Averell!!) with affiliated names like Scranton Averell Investments LLC as well as East West Alliance Scranton Averell LLC (East West Alliance is the partnership of companies that pursued the Thunderbird development). Interestingly, there is no Scranton-Averell Inc. registered with the Ohio Secretary of State's office.

9 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Stickney was in Rocky River and it appears that's still the address of record based on the website. So I assume he's still the guy. But there's some "new" (2017) companies (certainly newer than 1828 which is how old some of the oldest ancestor companies are in Scranton-Averell!!) with affiliated names like Scranton Averell Investments LLC as well as East West Alliance Scranton Averell LLC (East West Alliance is the partnership of companies that pursued the Thunderbird development). Interestingly, there is no Scranton-Averell Inc. registered with the Ohio Secretary of State's office.

Wonder if Max Ratner's group in Shaker Heights knows by chance as they are probably the only Forest City family left in Cleveland (Van Aken District).

As in the Max Collaborative?

On 12/15/2024 at 9:46 AM, Jax said:

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but do we have any inkling as to why they are so reticent to engage about the property? From what I've seen there isn't even a "not interested" response, just messages into the ether?

 

I've speculated before on CERCLA and/or soil stability issues on the peninsula.   They may know things others don't, things that might impact the value of the land.   Land that may have been borrowed against.