Posted May 21, 200817 yr Town Center proposed for Liberty Twp. Developer proposes town center near new I-75 exit BY AMBER ELLIS & MIKE BOYER | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER May 21, 2008 LIBERTY TWP. - A $200 million-plus project revealed Tuesday could create a "town center" for Liberty Township that includes everything from a movie theater and hotel to upscale apartments and retail shops. Click on link for article.
May 21, 200817 yr Liberty Township to see $250M mixed-use development BY LAURA BAVERMAN | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER May 21, 2008 LIBERTY TWP. - More than $250 million in retail, restaurants, apartments, hotels and offices are planned for a 110-acre plot of land just west of Interstate 75 in Liberty Township. Click on link for article.
May 21, 200817 yr I wonder how the Enquirer found out about this; the Business Courier was supposed to exclusively announce the project Friday. The plans are pretty typical, but there is talk of LEED principles.
May 21, 200817 yr "If we're going to bring retail in, it needs to be the crown jewel of Butler County and Southwest Ohio." "upscale apartments" "an upscale theater" I love all the rheteric in all the proposals. Why doesn't anyone ever say the trueth.... "we're building a bunch of basic appartments, along with some basic stores, basic restaurants, and a typical, standard theatre. You know, the common, basic stuff you see everywhere". Because after the proposal is accepted, that's what they will end up building.
May 21, 200817 yr Well, at least it is a developer that will attempt to recreate the urban feel that was lost decades ago. This developer has a great track record so far, but it's saddening that it's being built out there... and not in the inner-city. I actually am relived that this is not another faux "Towne Centre" label.
May 21, 200817 yr Steiner & Associates Inc. is best known for its mixed-use development of Easton Town Center in Columbus, a 90-acre project. It recently built the 72-acre mixed-use development in Dayton, called The Greene, and is known locally for Newport on the Levee, a late 1990s project. I know this project is in a location I could care less about, but Easton and The Greene are pretty impressive for a suburban "lifestyle" center. I will keep an eye on this one.
May 21, 200817 yr I've been to The Green in Dayton (Beavercreek, actually). Not a bad place, but I'm not sure that it belongs in Liberty Township. Sounds like all the developers are using the same model for all their work - the Union Center model of West Chester Township. That's not exactly a great area, IMO.
May 21, 200817 yr This plan far surpasses anything ever done at Union Centre. The Streets of West Chester (what phase has been built anyway) and the new square are on a much smaller scale. West Chester Township may have lost out from developing when it did.
May 21, 200817 yr Agreed, If this project has the same concepts as The Greene, than it will be light years ahead of what was developed at Union Centre. If we are going to continue to build on greenfields, at least make the projects LEED and mixed use. Who knows, they might even be able to create enough density in that area to support transit one day.
May 21, 200817 yr Who knows, they might even be able to create enough density in that area to support transit one day. A lightrail line would certainly help that become more possible.
May 21, 200817 yr What is LEED? And when I say Westchester, I'm including everything on the west side of I-75... Ikea, AK Steel, etc. The whole area, lumped together, in addition to the Shops/Streets (whatever they call it, just east of I75).
May 21, 200817 yr What is LEED? And when I say Westchester, I'm including everything on the west side of I-75... Ikea, AK Steel, etc. The whole area, lumped together, in addition to the Shops/Streets (whatever they call it, just east of I75). LEED is Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design i.e. Greenbuilding which you've probably heard of.
May 21, 200817 yr Are there any site plans, renderings available yet? A conceptual site plan is on the Journal's site. The only renderings are very basic--just buildings scale, etc.; in fact, most of the master plan is images of The Greene, Easton, etc.
May 21, 200817 yr Are there any site plans, renderings available yet? A conceptual site plan is on the Journal's site. The only renderings are very basic--just buildings scale, etc.; in fact, most of the master plan is images of The Greene, Easton, etc. Thanks for the info. It looks to be pretty much an Oasis - surrounded by I75, Regional Hwy, and CinDayton Road - I imagine after it's all said and done Hamilton-Mason Road will be widened to 25 lanes effectively cutting it off from the residential area across the street. Otherwise, nice project. :wink:
May 21, 200817 yr I do think a large retail project with department stores at this location may just do the Tri-County Mall in and make it very difficult to every redevelop the mall in Middletown. Tenant Guess: Von Maur, Dillards, Bass Pro, Cheesecake Factory, etc.... This projects is just about halfway between the Greene and Kenwood. Question: How high does gas need to go before a developer like Steiners decide building out on the edge of suburbia isn't the best use of money? My guess - $6.00
May 21, 200817 yr Question: How high does gas need to go before a developer like Steiners decide building out on the edge of suburbia isn't the best use of money? After we win that class action lawsuit against OPEC, oil will flow like honey, cost .99 cents a gallon and we'll all be happy again.
May 21, 200817 yr Unfortunately, I'm not sure Butler Cty will really counts as sprawl anymore. The entire county is essentially urbanized at this point. The Liberty Township stuff really sits at space between two major metro areas with massive workcenters along the edges closest to that area. It would be great if we could all live in cities, but this area could allow a family to have one member work in Dayton and the other in Cincy without forcing either into a massive commute. New urban areas aren't bad either. England has been trying this and to some degree Greenhills was an attempt at this during the Great Depression. The key will be to connect this new center to rail/bus transit that will have to return at gas prices hit those numbers. The key is concentration and densification rather than city location. Rail works best with a series of distributed dense settlements rather than sprawl urban development anyway.
May 21, 200817 yr Unfortunately, I'm not sure Butler Cty will really counts as sprawl anymore And there-in is the whole issue. And an unfortunate issue at that, for those of us living in the area who still wish to retain its 'quasi' rural feel (in certain areas). Yes, with Westchester and Miamisburg/Springboro employment centers, living along I-75 between the 2 is a viable option for a lot of couples. Face it... I live near "Touchdown Jesus" by the I-75/St63 (Monroe) interchange. I work in WestChester. It's a 13 mile commute. If I lived in downtown Cincy, it would be just as long a comute. So when so many employers move out to the suburbs, the CBD becomes the much maligned exurb.
May 21, 200817 yr Unfortunately, I'm not sure Butler Cty will really counts as sprawl anymore. The entire county is essentially urbanized at this point. It's not even close of being urbanized, which is quite scary if you think about it. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 21, 200817 yr Another way to think about it, is the fact that we have multi-nodal urban areas. There are good and bad reasons for why this happened, but fundamentally it means that when it comes to identifying the difference between city/suburb and core/periphery, it is much harder.
May 21, 200817 yr The eastern section of the county is entirely urbanized (not urban). Clearly western Butler Cty has a long way to go (as does parts of Hamilton Cty). This development though is right at the core of the Dayton-Cincinnati urban corridor. It was nearly urbanized according to the census as of 2000 and we all acknowledge that urbanization of that area has intensified massively over the last 8 years.
May 21, 200817 yr Right, I was just talking about the entire county. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 21, 200817 yr I do think a large retail project with department stores at this location may just do the Tri-County Mall in and make it very difficult to every redevelop the mall in Middletown. Tenant Guess: Von Maur, Dillards, Bass Pro, Cheesecake Factory, etc.... This projects is just about halfway between the Greene and Kenwood. Question: How high does gas need to go before a developer like Steiners decide building out on the edge of suburbia isn't the best use of money? My guess - $6.00 Now this is just my opinion so I hope people don't try to spin it in such a way to make it seem like I am preaching the gospel, but I don't think this will effect the tri-county mall in any way. The tri-county mall is in a huge retail area that isn't going anywhere soon. I am not familiar with the middletown mall. As far as gas is concerned, there are 35,000 people living in this community already, and they are expecting over 60,000. I don't know how far they have to drive for the same type of entertainment/shopping thats about to be built in their community, but I would be willing to bet they will save gas by shopping at this new town center, so those developers are actually doing them a favor the way I see it. I'm sure some people will drive a longer distance to shop there, but if they are willing to drive there they would be willing to drive somewhere else if this town center didn't exist. On another note, I hope bass pro shop don't move because I like their location now, but I could understand if they did.
May 22, 200817 yr Well, at least it is a developer that will attempt to recreate the urban feel that was lost decades ago. This developer has a great track record so far, but it's saddening that it's being built out there... and not in the inner-city. I actually am relived that this is not another faux "Towne Centre" label. Hey seicer, they are building one of those in the urban core, its called The Banks! ;) Although I think The Banks will be much better!
May 22, 200817 yr The eastern section of the county is entirely urbanized (not urban). Clearly western Butler Cty has a long way to go (as does parts of Hamilton Cty). It'll be a cold day in hell when Reily Township is urbanized. On topic... I was wondering when they'd try their hand in an Easton-Like development in the area. Sort of wish it was closer to civilization.
May 22, 200817 yr While there are pockets of urban areas in Butler county (City of Hamilton and to some degree Middletown) the rest of it is suburban or rual not urban. It may be built up, but only in a sprawling suburban fashion. I would not want to have to ride my bike or walk from one point in West Chester or Liberty Township to another. I can comfortably do that in most of Hamilton.
May 22, 200817 yr While there are pockets of urban areas in Butler county (City of Hamilton and to some degree Middletown) the rest of it is suburban or rual not urban. It may be built up, but only in a sprawling suburban fashion. I would not want to have to ride my bike or walk from one point in West Chester or Liberty Township to another. I can comfortably do that in most of Hamilton. I think the operate word for this area is "suburban" not urban such as Hamilton, Middletown, Cincinnati, etc.
May 22, 200817 yr Amazing what 10 years has done. Urban used to be a taboo word around the midwest. Now suburban developments are trying to incorporate the word into thier projects. Funny!
May 22, 200817 yr Liberty Twp. project lauded as retail catalyst Trustee calls it Butler County's version of Cincinnati's Banks BY AMBER ELLIS | [email protected] Diagrams and renderings: http://cmsimg.enquirer.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AB&Date=20080522&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=805220403&Ref=AR&Profile=1056&MaxW=315&border=1 http://cmsimg.enquirer.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AB&Date=20080522&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=805220403&Ref=V2&Profile=1056&MaxW=315&border=1 http://cmsimg.enquirer.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=AB&Date=20080522&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=805220403&Ref=V3&Profile=1056&MaxW=315&border=1 LIBERTY TWP. - Liberty Town Square, the massive retail development plan that mixes retail, residential, entertainment and office spaces, could bring thousands of new jobs and inject millions of dollars into the local economy, township officials say - and could rival The Banks project in downtown Cincinnati. Click on link for article. http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080522/NEWS01/805220403/1056/COL02
May 22, 200817 yr I think it is a bit of a stretch to compare this to The Banks. It will be something new for the Northern 'burbs, and should be something for them to tinker with...but they are lacking prime river frontage, a massive park, 2 professional sports venues, a museum...oh yeah and the density that allows even cooler stuff to happen. This does have great I-75 frontage though!
May 22, 200817 yr Actually, that divided highway featured in the proposals is st 129, not I-75. Yes, I-75 is in the background, but the land across from the highway in those drawings is where the Krogers and new Children's Hospital are located. It looks like the buildings face Hamilton-Mason road, with SR129 at the back. I-75 will be on the west end, so you will only see the side of some buildings, and probably the parking lot, from the Interstate. And then 6 miles north of here you will have that wonderful, upscale, outlet mall, at the Monroe exit. It's Butler/Warren county. Everything is "Upscale", at least when its presented to the county planers.
May 22, 200817 yr I should say "planed upscale outlet mall" 6 miles to the north at Monroe (SR63) interchange. Currently you have the 2 wonderful outlet malls - Turtlecreek Flea Market and Trader'sWorld flea market, with Touchdown Jesus in the background ,at that interchange.
May 22, 200817 yr I do think a large retail project with department stores at this location may just do the Tri-County Mall in and make it very difficult to every redevelop the mall in Middletown. Tenant Guess: Von Maur, Dillards, Bass Pro, Cheesecake Factory, etc.... This projects is just about halfway between the Greene and Kenwood. Question: How high does gas need to go before a developer like Steiners decide building out on the edge of suburbia isn't the best use of money? My guess - $6.00 Who really knows what the future holds in store? But, if gas prices continue to go up - exceeding $6.00 or more a gallon and make Liberty township a low density wasteland. I read here on UO in another thread that far-flung burbs have some of the highest foreclosure rates and drops in home values. If that is what the future holds, Steiner better step on the gas - develop the project and sell it while its still a hot project.
May 22, 200817 yr I think they have a lot of balls to call this Butler County's Banks Project. Where's the Central Riverfront Park to go with it? Where's the beautiful downtown backdrop? Where are Butler County's two major league stadiums? Oh, that's right, we're talking about a project on Hamilton-Mason Road. Ugh. Perhaps they're trying to mask the fact that gas prices coupled with the mortgage crisis and collapse of the housing market is destroying their dreams for Liberty Township. Who knows? But, one thing is certain, they have a lot of balls to say that.
May 22, 200817 yr "The Banks 2" I thought was reserved for Ovation. I guess this should really be "The Banks 3"
May 22, 200817 yr Is another retail project feasible in this area? You have the city of Hamilton some 6 miles to the West. You have the retail complex of Bidgewater Falls (is that it's name?) about 3 miles west of the proposed site. You have the I-75/Tylersville Rd and I-75/CinDay interchanges just 1 and 2 miles south of there, with a lot of retail in those areas as well. You have the Westchester stuff just 4 miles south of the proposed site. and Mason and all its shoping are just 5 miles west of the site. And of course, Middletown and Monroe, 6 miles north of the proposed site, are trying to expand their retail activities. Yes, this proposed project is a little different from each of these, but just how much retail can an area have? Doesn't this basically expand slightly on what Bridgwater Falls and the Westcheser projects are trying to do? This area of the SW Ohio region is not know for upscale living at all. It's not populated by a lot of families making over $100k. It's not populated by a lot of singles. It's not populated by a lot of jobs. Basically, they are proposing to plop a high-end retail complex in the middle of a 100 sq mile bedroom community area with average incomes, average houses, and lots of children. They shop at average places (walmart, krogers, jcpenney, sears), and eat out at average places (applebees, red robin, olive garden). The area is already saturated with those types of place. How is this going to differ from Bridgwater Falls (3 miles away) and 'The streets of Westchester' (4 miles away)??? What type of "upscale" stuff can they bring into this area that the residents are going to support. Let's face it. I was born in the area, grew up in the area, went to college in the area, began my work career in the area.... then I moved away. Now I'm back and to be honest, the people have not changed much. This part of the country has a very local, narrow, non-wordly population base. It does not have many transplants from the rest of the country or world. It does not have people who have traveled much (Disney World does not count). It does not have open, creative, sophisticated people. Yes, there is a lot of good in the area, but from the standpoint of attracting any retail that is different than is already here, I don't see it happening. At least "The Green" in Dayton is actually out by the AirForce base, which is populated primarily by people from around the country, including a lot of single people. LibertyTownship is not. I don't understand why the region does not concentrate on bringing in high-paying jobs first, with retail to follow. By high-paying jobs, I mean $70k+. Anything less, you are just going to promote more Sears and JCPenney demographics. And anything less, you are not going to attract out-side people to move to the area and bring a demand for more upscale amenities. (end of rant)
May 22, 200817 yr I'm not saying the concept is bad. I'm saying that the population base of the proposed area (Butler/Warren county) does not support, and will not support anytime soon, anything other than more of the same. And I think we have all of the 'more of the same' that economically, the area can handle.
May 22, 200817 yr ^Very good points! I won't knock this just yet, because I really haven't seen the other projects that some of you talk about they've done. But CincyDad, I agree 100% with you and your views. I wonder when the area is going to say enough is enough!! They are going to wait too long and be oversaturated with retail and have essentially, what we have in Forest Park (Cincy Mills). If the bankruptcy of Bridgewater doesn't raise a few eyebrows, I don't know what will. Seems they are just shooting themselves in the foot, because whether this is successful or not, it will come at the expense of one of the other new surrounding developments.
May 22, 200817 yr ^ If the bankruptcy of Bridgewater doesn't raise a few eyebrows, I don't know what will. Bridgewater Falls didn't go bankrupt, its developer (who was involved in a number of other projects) did. I don't know how sales are at the complex (if traffic is any indication, it is doing great), but tenants continue to open up and fill the last remaining spaces. Bridgewater is actually seven (7) miles away from Liberty Square, by the way.
May 22, 200817 yr ^Of course, if the developer did a bunch of similar projects, your point might be just as relevent without the clarification.
May 22, 200817 yr don't understand why the region does not concentrate on bringing in high-paying jobs first, with retail to follow. By high-paying jobs, I mean $70k+. I may be wrong but - because it's a township and not a city they can't collect income tax so high paying manufacturing or office jobs really don't mean anything to their bottom line - but retail sales taxes could really be a boost for them. I think they do have some kind of joint econ district agreement with Mason or Middletown that allows them to collect income taxes within a specific area near the new kroger, children's hospital, and possibly this area - but the taxes have to be used to finance/pay-off the new interchange.
May 22, 200817 yr ^Liberty Square is part of the JEDD district between Liberty Township, Middletown, and Mason.
May 22, 200817 yr Here's a link to "The Greene" in Dayton, apparently by the same developers. http://www.thegreene.com/thegreenedirectorymap.cfm It's about time Liberty township got a Payless Shoesource and a Striderite shoe store!!!! Maybe they will put in a Funnybone Comedy Club. There will be plenty of local material for the comedians to gather from.
May 22, 200817 yr This is an announcement at somewhere approaching a bottom type spot in the housing market and retail is quickly following. It will be interesting see how this actually comes to fruition. If it takes four or five years, some of the first gen. liberty township families will be approaching empty nest moments, then this becomes LT version of what Blue Ash is trying to do and what the river clearly already is for the region. Now if someone came forward with this for Kenwood . . .
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