This center sounds more downscale than The Greene or Easton.  Dick's Sporting Goods, Dillard's...this might as well be Tri-County-But-Newer.

^yep, that does appear to be the case. I thought for sure that they would pull Macys away from Tri-County, but it looks like that won't be happening.

 

Maybe this will mean Tri-County will start signing some more tenants? I don't see this center being much of an alternative to the mall.

^yep, that does appear to be the case. I thought for sure that they would pull Macys away from Tri-County, but it looks like that won't be happening.

 

Maybe this will mean Tri-County will start signing some more tenants? I don't see this center being much of an alternative to the mall.

 

Actually, a second department store will be in Phase II.  It's expected to be Macy's.  Phase I, currently under construction, is 65 acres.  Phase II will be 35 acres.  If you've been to Easton in Columbus, you'd see that there is no way an old school mall like Tri-County will be able to compete.  Today, it's all about the experience.  That's how Liberty Center is being designed and built. It'd be a mistake to get hung up on anchors and specific retailers. LC is not meant to be your Grandma's mall. It's the future of retailing.       

This center sounds more downscale than The Greene or Easton.  Dick's Sporting Goods, Dillard's...this might as well be Tri-County-But-Newer.

 

Dillard's is considered a step above Macy's.  Their newer stores are pretty upscale.  The Dick's being built is a two level 80,000 sq. ft. flagship that only goes into upscale centers where the demographics are there to support it.  One just opened in Tampa, FL in an upscale mall, in the space of a vacated SAKS Fifth Avenue.  http://tbo.com/news/business/westshore-dicks-brings-big-game-to-tampa-bay-area-20140423/    These are the types of retailers in today's upscale developments.  The reliance on traditional department stores is a thing of the past. Also, the "place" is considered an anchor.  Which is why it's going to be so much more than just a "newer" Tri-County Mall.

Wow, a Dillard's AND a Dick's Sporting Goods.  Two rhinestones in the tin crown that is Liberty Center.

Dillard's is considered a step above Macy's.

 

You don't even believe this.

 

One just opened in Tampa, FL in an upscale mall, in the space of a vacated SAKS Fifth Avenue.

 

WestShore Plaza is not "upscale."  Any mall with anchors such as Sears, JCPenney, and Macy's would not be considered upscale...not even in Ohio.

 

These are the types of retailers in today's upscale developments.  The reliance on traditional department stores is a thing of the past.

 

Again, not even you believe this.  Name one new mall in the past 10 years that has opened with a Dick's Sporting Goods that's supposed to be "upscale?"  City Creek Center in Salt Lake City would be an example of a newer, more upscale mall...that lacks a Dillard's or a Dick's Sporting Goods.  This Liberty Center is, again, nothing more than Tri-County 2.0.  Kenwood clearly is going to stay the more upscale mall in the Cincinnati area.

REI attracts a much more upscale clientele than Dick's Sporting Goods.

REI attracts a much more upscale clientele than Dick's Sporting Goods.

 

REI is far smaller, though. 80,000 square feet is a pretty large building for a sporting goods store and they must expect to do a lot of business there. A Dick's that big probably does more revenue than an REI despite the lower price point.

 

I agree with the sentiment that Liberty Center is not upscale - a region like Cincinnati usually only has one "upscale" shopping area and it's Kenwood. Developments exactly like Liberty Center are going up all over the country, especially down south. In fact, I can think of one that has a Bass Pro and a Dillard's-esque department store as anchors.

This project is such a parallel to the area between Cincinnati and Dayton in general. Almost, but not quite, a metroplex. Just like the area has almost, but not quite, the growth momentum to truly connect them. Finally, it will have almost, but not quite, a regional retail powerhouse to call its own. Almost. But not quite.

This project is such a parallel to the area between Cincinnati and Dayton in general. Almost, but not quite, a metroplex. Just like the area has almost, but not quite, the growth momentum to truly connect them. Finally, it will have almost, but not quite, a regional retail powerhouse to call its own. Almost. But not quite.

 

I like many of your statements, almost there but not quite. But you know what, I believe it will be a successful financial endeavor. Why, because it is so close to the money!

I think it will be successful, but it's not going to be nearly as "high-end" as some of the literature claimed.  Dillard's and Dick's is not going to move the needle as a regional destination--for most of the people in the region, those stores are already close at hand.  And really, I think that makes sense.  There is a lot of money out that way, but not the same levels of money as around the Kenwood area--which is why you see Saks (and potentially Tiffany's, it sounds like) heading to Kenwood. 

I think it will be successful, but it's not going to be nearly as "high-end" as some of the literature claimed.  Dillard's and Dick's is not going to move the needle as a regional destination--for most of the people in the region, those stores are already close at hand.  And really, I think that makes sense.  There is a lot of money out that way, but not the same levels of money as around the Kenwood area--which is why you see Saks (and potentially Tiffany's, it sounds like) heading to Kenwood.

 

OK, but while you are thinking it is not enough high end, it will be tearing up the likes of Target, Meijer, Kohls, and the rest.

The main reason this development will be successful is simply the number of people who now live in northern Butler Co and Mason who are tired of driving to Kenwood or the collapsing Tri-County to shop. Give them an option close to home and they will elect it. And all the talk about "high-end", rubbish. Kohls is definitely not high-end, and look how successful they are, they are everywhere.

 

If Dillard's sticks to their McAlpinish roots, particularly in the area of children's clothing, they will do just fine. I remember when Pogue's was the top of the heap, Shillito's the next tier, and McAlpin's the bottom tier. But when it came time to clothe our kids for school, McAlpin's was the place we went. Decent clothes at reasonable prices.

 

Sacks, Tiffany, and the like should have stayed where they started, NYC.

^It's Saks, not Sacks.  And saying Saks and Tiffany should have stayed in NYC is idiotic.  That's like saying Kroger should only stay in Ohio (different product, but same idea).  Are companies not allowed to expand into different states or markets just because you won't shop there?  How myopic.

There's two users in this thread that I tend to ignore. It's just easier.

^what is even funnier is that the two "supporters" are even contradicting each other.  One says it "is" upscale (which it appears is a wild exaggeration) and the other states "who cares" that it is not upscale, it will be supported by the shoppers of Mason which apparently is the center of the earth.

As I've said earlier in this thread, there are dozens of this exact concept going up all over the country. They are always sold as "high end" but I think that's just a sales technique to set them apart from any other strip center. Ultimately, they'll have the exact same level of stores that Tri County had 10 years ago, with a different layout. It'll be successful because it's exactly what suburbanites want. If you think a 2500 square foot wood frame, vinyl siding house with a 2 car garage on a 1/2 acre lot is superb, you'll think Liberty Center is the best thing since sliced bread. A pretty huge percentage of the popualtion thinks that way, though I'd wager the preference for that lifestyle has about 1/2 a generation left. In 25 years when Forest Fair is a demolished, grassy lot, this will be what Forest Fair has become today. Of course, the developers and tenants will have all made their expected returns by then.

I think it will be successful, but it's not going to be nearly as "high-end" as some of the literature claimed.  Dillard's and Dick's is not going to move the needle as a regional destination--for most of the people in the region, those stores are already close at hand.  And really, I think that makes sense.  There is a lot of money out that way, but not the same levels of money as around the Kenwood area--which is why you see Saks (and potentially Tiffany's, it sounds like) heading to Kenwood.

 

OK, but while you are thinking it is not enough high end, it will be tearing up the likes of Target, Meijer, Kohls, and the rest.

 

Oh, I'm not saying that.  I agree it will be very successful.  I agree there are many people in Butler and Warren counties who will shop there.  All I am saying is that it has been pitched by some as being some sort of "high-end" destination for the entire region.  That sure doesn't seem to be taking shape.  I think it will be a very successful shopping destination for the people in those suburbs, but having a Dillard's and a Dick's is not going to draw shoppers from, say, downtown and Indian Hill.  Kenwood, on the other hand, will draw the shoppers nearby to it who want a Dillard's or Macy's, but also the high-end shoppers from everywhere in the region who want to go to Saks, Nordstrom, or whatever.

 

I don't think we are disagreeing, kjbrill. 

How myopic.

 

Just say this each time in your head and don't bother replying. Time saver. ;)

  Are companies not allowed to expand into different states or markets just because you won't shop there?  How myopic.

 

As I have mentioned on this site before, women age 18-64 are the most important demographic in retail. Few decisions in retail are made with retired men in mind, so where that type of user likes to shop is largely irrelevant. That demo is important when selling boats, R/Vs and other low-impact outdoor items such as fishing rods though. I would survey kjbrill when deciding to locate a Bass Pro but not a women's clothing store. Notice that jewelry stores don't open up by muffler shops and speedways just because men are in the area a lot.

Everyone is too focused on the retail aspect of this project.  It's a "lifestyle center".  It's many components will draw people to it and guarantee it's success.  Not any particular retailer.  They just updated their web-site and included a rendering book.  Check it out:  http://www.liberty-center.com/Portals/0/pdf/LIBERTY-CENTER-RENDERING-BOOK-MAY-2014.pdf  The website:  http://www.liberty-center.com/

These renderings look similar to what was once proposed for the Center of Cincinnati off of I-71 and SR 562. The buildings also - sadly, look better than much of The Banks (exception: Moerlein).

I like this project and think it will do well, but reading thru the posts and looking at the developers comments gave the impression that this project was going to be unique and be a regional draw and it simply will not be. People in the city or the immediate surrounding neighborhoods such as Norwood, Sycamore Township(kenwood), Indian Hill and NKY and so on for that matter are not going to drive that far for this nor should they. This development will do well with just the northern sub population but a regional draw I think is out the window.

I did see in an earlier BizCourier article (which may have been posted here) that the center most likely will include a pedestrian bridge across OH 129 to the Children's hospital area. So kudos for that. It won't be upscale, and it doesn't look like much of a competitor to Tri County. So kudos there as well. As long as they build it with some respect for quality I think it might be nice.

 

And maybe it will help further detox some suburbanites into the city. Taking suburbanites from the car driven mall mentality to an atmosphere that is a lot more conducive to transit in general makes them angry they can't access the center easily with their cars at first. But then they begin to consider how cool it woul be instead if they did not have to worry about their car at all. I've observed a little bit of this phenomena with my suburban friends in Dayton in relation to the Greene. So maybe urbanists should view this as promotion for cities/detox rather than a hostile attack?

I do generally like the design, nothing breathtaking but pretty good it's almost a mix between the former Millworks project and Newport on the levee on steroids.

The Acropolis? Really :roll:

Cabela's is coming to near Liberty Center, though not at Liberty Center.  With the Bass Pro Shops moving to West Chester and Dick's at Liberty Center, that is a lot of sporting goods in one place.  I wonder if someone will blink and back out. 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2014/06/cabela-s-plans-greater-cincinnati-store.html?ed=2014-06-11&s=newsletter&ana=e_cinci_rdup

 

Actually, a second department store will be in Phase II.  It's expected to be Macy's.  Phase I, currently under construction, is 65 acres.  Phase II will be 35 acres.  If you've been to Easton in Columbus, you'd see that there is no way an old school mall like Tri-County will be able to compete.  Today, it's all about the experience.  That's how Liberty Center is being designed and built. It'd be a mistake to get hung up on anchors and specific retailers. LC is not meant to be your Grandma's mall. It's the future of retailing.       

 

Where are these extra 35 acres that you mention? Liberty Center is land locked unless they start buying up all the commercial buildings to their west. You have 129 to the North, 75 to the east and residential and Cabela's to the south.

^You got that right.

 

I think there may be some land they can cannibalize to the west that is not included in the original plan. Aside from that, forget it.

 

 

Unless they are still building that pedestrian bridge across 129. That, IMO, is the key between having a "yuck" project and a "decent" project.

Actually, a second department store will be in Phase II.  It's expected to be Macy's.  Phase I, currently under construction, is 65 acres.  Phase II will be 35 acres.  If you've been to Easton in Columbus, you'd see that there is no way an old school mall like Tri-County will be able to compete.  Today, it's all about the experience.  That's how Liberty Center is being designed and built. It'd be a mistake to get hung up on anchors and specific retailers. LC is not meant to be your Grandma's mall. It's the future of retailing.       

 

Where are these extra 35 acres that you mention? Liberty Center is land locked unless they start buying up all the commercial buildings to their west. You have 129 to the North, 75 to the east and residential and Cabela's to the south.

 

Steiner owns over 100 acres of land.  The first phase is 65 acres of that. The acreage for the future phase is the western portion of land. 

 

The latest from today....

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/see-plans-for-the-first-buildings-at-liberty-cente/nhFZ2/

 

^Don't know much about this development being from up north but the anchors mentioned in the article are not particularly exciting.

It's not.  It's an outdoor Richmond Town Square.

It's not.  It's an outdoor Richmond Town Square.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.....

 

http://www.liberty-center.com/Portals/0/pdf/LIBERTY-CENTER-RENDERING-BOOK-MAY-2014.pdf

That, uh, tells me nothing different.  Dillard's.

It's not.  It's an outdoor Richmond Town Square.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth....

 

http://www.liberty-center.com/Portals/0/pdf/LIBERTY-CENTER-RENDERING-BOOK-MAY-2014.pdf

 

Stop being such a cheerleader. The tenant mix is lame. Dillard's is not exciting at all. This development doesn't even have a J. Crew, let alone a Saks or Nordstrom. There is nothing exciting about this development.

The anchors aren't exciting but I'm pretty pleased with the design. Steiner does a very good job typically. According to the renderings, this will be a new version of Easton in Cbus. If it looks like the renderings look, it will be better, but I'm curious to see if it turns out looking like that given the tenants they've signed so far. Compared to the thing in Oakley, and Rookwood, Liberty Center will be the best looking lifestyle center in Cincy, whatever that means.

It's not.  It's an outdoor Richmond Town Square.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.....

 

http://www.liberty-center.com/Portals/0/pdf/LIBERTY-CENTER-RENDERING-BOOK-MAY-2014.pdf

 

Richmond Town Square:

 

 

Not a bad comparison if we are just talking straight retail mix:

 

Macy's = Dillard's

Dick's = Planet Fitness

Cinema = Cinema

 

The difference is that Richmond Town Square also includes Sears and Macy's, which one could see as an asset or a liability given their recent financial performance. I'd argue the development is more similar to the Beechmont Mall redevelopment into Anderson Town Center:

 

http://www.atcstores.com/merchants.html

 

Assuming it's about 5-10 years in the future and the Kmart is closed and replaced with a Dick's Sporting Goods. I see movie theaters increasingly going the way of the dinosaurs, so take that for what it's worth.

 

The anchors aren't exciting but I'm pretty pleased with the design. Steiner does a very good job typically. According to the renderings, this will be a new version of Easton in Cbus. If it looks like the renderings look, it will be better, but I'm curious to see if it turns out looking like that given the tenants they've signed so far. Compared to the thing in Oakley, and Rookwood, Liberty Center will be the best looking lifestyle center in Cincy, whatever that means.

 

Agreed that Steiner generally does a good job. This development is a lot better quality than, say, something that Simon or Glimcher would do.

 

What I don't understand is how the tenant mix is so bad. All they were able to do was poach Dillard's from Tri-County (keep in mind they weren't even able to get Macy's, which I'm sure they tried to do), and get Dick's, which probably would have just located to somewhere along Tylersville if there were any open space.

 

If I were the developers, I would have been tempted to ditch the retail component and focus more on restaurants, office space, and residential given the current tenant mix and let Tri-County be. But to each their own I guess.

With developers of The Kenwood Collection now focusing on a more mid range group of tenants rather than luxury high-end I would say that is going to hurt the mix at Liberty even more. Retailers and Restaurants when opening new stores look at the entire metro area as a whole and the Kenwood property is still going to be more attractive than this up north from a business stand point.

These types of developments in the middle of nowhere aren't exciting no matter what they have. There's nothing "unique" about this at all. I'd rather drive to KTC and have more options, then leave there and take my kids to a park.

These types of developments in the middle of nowhere aren't exciting no matter what they have. There's nothing "unique" about this at all. I'd rather drive to KTC and have more options, then leave there and take my kids to a park.

 

You're kidding, right? Have you ever been to the area??  Liberty Center (whose name will more than likely be changing before it opens) is right in the center of the Cincinnati/Dayton Metroplex.  And there are parks all over the place.  A 435 acre park is about half a mile away. Geez!  http://www.butlercountymetroparks.org/voa.asp

With developers of The Kenwood Collection now focusing on a more mid range group of tenants rather than luxury high-end I would say that is going to hurt the mix at Liberty even more. Retailers and Restaurants when opening new stores look at the entire metro area as a whole and the Kenwood property is still going to be more attractive than this up north from a business stand point.

 

Your reasoning makes no sense.  What they will be looking at is the $105,000 average annual income in the area. 

Yeah and what Kenwood is looking at is Indian Hill. Seriously, you can like this all you want but it's nothing the country hasn't seen before. It's not unique, it's not interesting, the retail mix isn't luxury or high end like they claimed it would be and it's not going to be game changing. It's just another lifestyle center, albeit a nice one.

I do appreciate SAF's efforts to sell it to us like we're all prospective tenants or something.

SAF what I am saying plain and simple now that Kenwood Collection is scraping the High End Luxury Approach both Liberty and KC will be going after many of the same tenants that would be new to market or even a little "unique". My second point is in my opinion if those tenants look at both of these locations and projects KC is probably going to land them over Liberty, it's not all about area income but just as much location and shopper volume which everyone knows Kenwood Is King.

SAF, what would be unique is if Stenier made a bold move and kicked Dick's and CineBistro out of the development, and replaced it with office space or more residential use instead.

 

 

Honestly, the retail industry is not even what it was 5 years ago and developers need to adjust. More discretionary income goes to restaurants (the rise of Foodies, anyone?) and entertainment (increase in average marrying age / rise of more bars, nightclubs, breweries, etc. than ever before) than retail stores (tiny house movement, demographic trends of people moving back to the city, smaller average house sizes). Steiner should capitalize on the movement AWAY from retail. So why are there three large "uncool" IMO retail anchors at the development?

 

This region does not need another mall. Heck, look at the formula its copy to the north, The Greene, uses. I'm a Daytonian, and I know few people that go there for the stores (except I hear about the occasional trip to Von Maur, but even that is rare). The people I know go for the restaurants, the entertainment on the lawn, Adobe Gila's and the Funny Bone nightclubs, etc. I know I fit into the latter category, aside from the awesome Books and Co. bookstore they have there.

 

So in a way, I see what you are saying SAF. Liberty Center will not really be a mall, but instead it will be like the Greene. I get that, and I do think there is a void in the market for a walkable mixed-use development with a solid bar district in the northern suburbs. What I don't understand is:

 

1.  Why the focus of this development / your focus has been on retail, "killing Tri-County", etc. I could pull quotes but I'd rather not.

2.  Why you think this will be unique.

3.  How this development could possibly be walkable to the VOA park

 

SAF, what would be unique is if Stenier made a bold move and kicked Dick's and CineBistro out of the development, and replaced it with office space or more residential use instead.

 

 

Honestly, the retail industry is not even what it was 5 years ago and developers need to adjust. More discretionary income goes to restaurants (the rise of Foodies, anyone?) and entertainment (increase in average marrying age / rise of more bars, nightclubs, breweries, etc. than ever before) than retail stores (tiny house movement, demographic trends of people moving back to the city, smaller average house sizes). Steiner should capitalize on the movement AWAY from retail. So why are there three large "uncool" IMO retail anchors at the development?

 

This region does not need another mall. Heck, look at the formula its copy to the north, The Greene, uses. I'm a Daytonian, and I know few people that go there for the stores (except I hear about the occasional trip to Von Maur, but even that is rare). The people I know go for the restaurants, the entertainment on the lawn, Adobe Gila's and the Funny Bone nightclubs, etc. I know I fit into the latter category, aside from the awesome Books and Co. bookstore they have there.

 

So in a way, I see what you are saying SAF. Liberty Center will not really be a mall, but instead it will be like the Greene. I get that, and I do think there is a void in the market for a walkable mixed-use development with a solid bar district in the northern suburbs. What I don't understand is:

 

1.  Why the focus of this development / your focus has been on retail, "killing Tri-County", etc. I could pull quotes but I'd rather not.

2.  Why you think this will be unique.

3.  How this development could possibly be walkable to the VOA park

 

 

Dick's isn't even the top tenant at Newport Pavilion.  With a Cabela's & bass pro-shops opening in WestChester, why would a Dick's be a draw to anyone? There are 9 Dick's in the region already.

Where are you guys seeing the full tenant list?

One place Liberty Center could shine would be in nightlife and entertainment options. There isn't a good nightlife scene in any of the northern Cincinnati suburbs. There are no lounges, bars and or live music venues clustered together anywhere outside of the Cincinnati CBD and neighborhoods. Not Montgomery, Kenwood, Blue Ash, Glendale, Anderson, Fairfield, Mason, Springdale or West Chester... About the only northern burb with a few bars walking distance from each other is Loveland and that's a stretch.

^Exactly. That's largely why the Greene has been a big hit in Dayton. People come for the restaurants, stay for the drinks.

 

The best part is that it's making those suburbanites more adventurous. The Oregon District has never done better than it's doing now, and a lot of that is due to the suburbanites coming in and frequenting the restaurants and bars.