Yeah that mall is just going to have to survive the next 5 years, or ideally it should have been built in 5-10 years.  More housing will continue to be built up there which will give it more traffic.  But they are pretty dumb if they expected anyone that lives within the city limits to drive all the way up there to shop.  

5 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Its not a bad concept. An urban indoor/outoor mall.

 

Im not sure what could be the root of the financial issue other than maybe liberty is a bit disconnected from the rest of greater cincinnati and is a somewhat long drive. 

 

I for instance would go more often, but it's easily a 40 minute drive for me if not longer. Compared to kenwood which is 15 - 20 min max.

 

 

You found the exact reason. They swung the high income towel over and over (even in this very thread) while ignoring the low population. As if one family making $150,000 that live on five acres is even remotely as good as 10 families on 1/2 acre each making $75,000. You don't get to put a shopping center out in the middle of a cornfield 15 miles away from people and expect the entire economy to come to you like its 1968 or something.

I've worked pretty close to Liberty Center for about 4 years, and I've never even looked up what tenants are there. I don't even know how to get into the development. All I know is it's off the highway connecting West Chester/Mason to Hamilton.

I think it was Travis that said it best; if Oakley station and Liberty center switched places they would both be more successful. 

54 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Its not a bad concept. An urban indoor/outoor mall.

 

"urban"

 

@ryanlammi - the only thing worth visiting there is Northstar Cafe. Excellent, excellent food and a nicely designed space. 

3 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

"urban"

 

@ryanlammi - the only thing worth visiting there is Northstar Cafe. Excellent, excellent food and a nicely designed space. 

 

With how many Columbus businesses have set up shop in otr, it's a damn shame that north star Cafe has yet to open in the urban core.

How many people are honestly surprised by this? My mom used to work in West Chester and all of her co-worker were excited about this development when it was first announced. I told her to tell them straight that this sort of faux-urbanism next to highway junction was built to fail. 

If you go back and read the first few pages of this thread, it was full of people saying that Liberty Center was not going to be successful. That area does not have enough disposable income to support yet another mall. Greater Cincinnati's northern/northwestern suburbs already had three other malls which were all struggling. So adding yet another mall just sliced the small pie even smaller. I really don't know what the developers were thinking when they decided to build this type of development at this location.

 

Look at which traditional enclosed malls have been successful in Greater Cincinnati. You have the Kenwood Towne Centre, which is centrally located for most people who live in Cincinnati and is where all of the "luxury" brands have consolidated. Eastgate Mall and Florence Mall are not on the same level as Kenwood, but both seem to be doing well as "blue collar" malls that serve one side of town and the surrounding rural areas. (I grew up on that side of town and remember that Eastgate would attract people from as far away as Hillsboro. I bet Florence is the same way, attracting people from a 50 mile radius going south into Kentucky.)

 

In theory you could have one Eastgate or Florence style mall serving Cincinnati's northern/northwestern burbs that would do quite well. But instead you have a retail glut with multiple enclosed malls that are struggling (TriCounty, Northgate, Forest Fair), not to mention various strip malls (most of which are also strugging) competing for the same business.

11 minutes ago, taestell said:

If you go back and read the first few pages of this thread, it was full of people saying that Liberty Center was not going to be successful. That area does not have enough disposable income to support yet another mall. Greater Cincinnati's northern/northeastern suburbs already had three other malls which were all struggling. So adding yet another mall just sliced the small pie even smaller. I really don't know what the developers were thinking when they decided to build this type of development at this location.

 

Look at which traditional enclosed malls have been successful in Greater Cincinnati. You have the Kenwood Towne Centre, which is centrally located for most people who live in Cincinnati and is where all of the "luxury" brands have consolidated. Eastgate Mall and Florence Mall are not on the same level as Kenwood, but both seem to be doing well as "blue collar" malls that serve one side of town and the surrounding rural areas. (I grew up on that side of town and remember that Eastgate would attract people from as far away as Hillsboro. I bet Florence is the same way, attracting people from a 50 mile radius going south into Kentucky.)

 

In theory you could have one Eastgate or Florence style mall serving Cincinnati's northern/northeastern burbs that would do quite well. But instead you have a retail glut with multiple enclosed malls that are struggling (TriCounty, Northgate, Forest Fair), not to mention various strip malls (most of which are also strugging) competing for the same business.

 

I mean to be fair it's a little bit more than just a "mall"...Id argue it's more of an faux urban entertainment plaza with all of the restaurants, cafes, few bars, comedy club, movie theater, residents/office space above, etc...

 

It may be slicking the pie a bit to thin, but I'd argue that many would enjoy eating liberty mall pie if it wasn't so damn far away. 

 

Aside from kenwood, I'd probably argue liberty mall is the 2nd most enjoyable (maybe 3rd if you could Newport) mall in the tri-state. 

 

I just can't and many other cincinnatians struggle with getting their. It's not in a convienent enough location.

Well, maybe it's better to reframe some of this newer stuff in the region as apartments with retail and dining rather than telling everyone that it's going to be a huge shopping center that's going to pull all the local money into it's orbit. It's irresponsible. Same goes for Austin Landing.

26 minutes ago, troeros said:

I mean to be fair it's a little bit more than just a "mall"

 

Liberty, Easton, and Greene are just reinterpretations of the 1980s enclosed shopping mall idea. Even though they have made an effort to make the developments more "mixed use" by incorporating apartments, hotels, and a few more local retailers, it's largely the same tenants that you find at any enclosed mall -- Dillard's, American Eagle, Old Navy, Hot Topic, Victoria's Secret, Cheesecake Factory. For most Cincinnatians, Liberty Center is not an "exciting new destination" to spend an afternoon, it's another mall that's competing with all of the existing malls. If Liberty Center was built as a continuation of another existing urban area it would be doing well, but it is not very compelling as a "drive-to urbanism" destination...combined with the fact that the area just doesn't have that much disposable income to support all of this new retail space.

23 minutes ago, taestell said:

 (I grew up on that side of town and remember that Eastgate would attract people from as far away as Hillsboro. I bet Florence is the same way, attracting people from a 50 mile radius going south into Kentucky.)

 

I know people who live out in Pike County who go to Eastgate to shop. I always thought it was funny that so many people in Brown, Highland, Adams, and Pike counties go to Eastgate Mall but people I know who live in Cincinnati have never even been to Eastgate. I grew up out in Adams County and when I talk to people in the city about where I'm from I usually say "way out east in the country past the suburbs" and their response is usually "oh like Eastgate?" I usually say "yea, kinda--but way farther."

And Florence used to get tons of people from Pikeville and Hazard. I don't think that's going on as much now though.

2 hours ago, troeros said:

 

With how many Columbus businesses have set up shop in otr, it's a damn shame that north star Cafe has yet to open in the urban core.

 

A good friend of mine up in Columbus did a lot of work with Northstar back in the day (he's actually the guy who encouraged me to check it out at Liberty Center). I asked him once if Northstar would ever consider moving into a more urban/city location and he seemed mum on the idea. Their Short North location seems to be the only big city/downtown style location. Would patronize them a lot more if they were in the CBD/OTR or Northside, Walnut Hills, etc.

 

1 hour ago, troeros said:

 

I mean to be fair it's a little bit more than just a "mall"...Id argue it's more of an faux urban entertainment plaza with all of the restaurants, cafes, few bars, comedy club, movie theater, residents/office space above, etc...

 

While physically, yeah it's a little different, but the tenants aren't all particularly unique. The Cheesecake Factory, Graeters, and H&M may all be in a faux urban environment, but there's also locations of all of those in easier to reach locations. 

I think Liberty Center's problem will ultimately be that it lacks anything unique to make it a destination. As it currently stands, it simply cannibalized other developments. Bridgewater Falls and The Streets of West Chester are just down the highway in either direction. Neither was ever fully built out and now that Liberty Center is the new thing in the region, they likely won't be. In my opinion, it's just a matter of time till the next development starts stealing LC's thunder. The Greene in Dayton seems to make due simply by virtue of being the location in Dayton. Down in Cincinnati, it's just a matter of time till someone steals that title from Liberty Center with the next "lifestyle center" development a few townships, towns, or communities over. 

What'll be telling with LC is if it gets an Apple Store. Apple is notorious for how much planning and bet hedging goes on with where they chose locations. Even back in the early days of Apple Retail, they announced (and then back tracked) on going into the Dayton Mall all while that mall was relatively strong (Florence was also rumored for years). It took them forever to go into The Greene (and often, they'll subsidize a third party "partner" store to test a shopping center for them ala The Greene). If an Apple Store makes it to Liberty Center, I'd say that's a sign the development has some long-term staying power.

 

P.S. Really wish Apple would build a flagship/destination store at The Banks. The Cincinnati market could really use a second store, particularly one that's easier for the West Side/Northern Kentucky to reach. But given the pace of The Banks' progress and the challenges it has, I don't see it happening anytime soon. Would be a huge boon for the businesses down there, though. You'd no longer have to rely on Reds traffic when you can sell lunch and dinner to people waiting for an iPhone 6S battery swap to be completed. 

Edited July 18, 20195 yr by Gordon Bombay

The unfortunate thing about Liberty Center struggling is that some developers will look at it and say, "new urbanist lifestyle centers won't work in Cincinnati." That is completely the wrong takeaway from this project. There is plenty of opportunity for a LC/Easton/Greene-style development to be built at Rookwood Commons/Pavilion/Exchange, Oakley Station (when we redo it in 20 years), Ovation, etc. Hopefully when Newport on the Levee is redone, it will be like "Liberty Center done right." Actually, I think that The Deacon would do great as mini-lifestyle center...put some mall-type stores right next to campus so that students can go shopping without having to drive to Kenwood or Rookwood.

I'm no booster for Liberty Center and wish it were closer to the core, but the article does NOT indicate that it is struggling. There were some operating hick-ups and financing issues, but there is no indication that the development is not successful otherwise. Occupancy rates are still high and the developers are planning significant expansions across the street/township line. 

 

We need to objectively consider news about any type of project--urban or suburban. Don't be the opposite of a suburbanite who reads about the Mahogany's fiasco and thinks the Banks is a failure. This is the Enquirer getting the taxpayers worked up about a likely non-issue.

 

 

5 hours ago, troeros said:

 

With how many Columbus businesses have set up shop in otr, it's a damn shame that north star Cafe has yet to open in the urban core.

 

Bretzel (which is closing) 

BrewDog (which is really from the UK) 

Mikey's Late Night Slice

 

 

....am I missing some? 

^Harvest Pizzeria, Homage, Elm & Iron, I'm sure some others.

When I googled "Columbus open location Over the Rhine" none of those showed up. 

53 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

When I googled "Columbus open location Over the Rhine" none of those showed up. 

 

Most of these places seem to go out of their way to not let you know where they originated. The same goes for the Thunderdome and Boca groups' restaurants. They want to be quasi local wherever they are.

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

^Harvest Pizzeria, Homage, Elm & Iron, I'm sure some others.

 

16 Bit and Pins Mechanical also jump to mind. Not to mention Aladdin and Platform, which are from Cleveland. 

9 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I know people who live out in Pike County who go to Eastgate to shop. I always thought it was funny that so many people in Brown, Highland, Adams, and Pike counties go to Eastgate Mall but people I know who live in Cincinnati have never even been to Eastgate. I grew up out in Adams County and when I talk to people in the city about where I'm from I usually say "way out east in the country past the suburbs" and their response is usually "oh like Eastgate?" I usually say "yea, kinda--but way farther."

Haha I'm from Peebles and that is exactly how I explain where I'm from

Liberty Center is a joke. Especially when you compare it to Steiner's other retail centers. The construction quality is laughable-- it looks like a strong gust of wind would blow it over. 

Yes, ordinarily Steiner does a much better job with their projects overall.

21 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

^Harvest Pizzeria, Homage, Elm & Iron, I'm sure some others.

 

 

19 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

 

16 Bit and Pins Mechanical also jump to mind. Not to mention Aladdin and Platform, which are from Cleveland. 

 

Pursuit and the Candle Lab as well.

On 8/2/2015 at 10:37 PM, SAF said:

That no Apple store will be there has shocked me.  This is definitely going to be an "A" class property.  Cities around the size of Cincinnati and smaller have two locations.....Columbus, Nashville, St. Louis and even Charlotte.  Instead, they are going to have a place called Simply MAC.  http://simplymac.com/locations/all    They're saying additional significant store announcements are coming.  I know Flip Flop Shops and Eddie Bauer as well as staple Dakota Watch (all at Kenwood) are opening there but weren't in the recent announcement.  They need to get a coveted American Girl store as well as an LL Bean.  Both recently opened at Steiner's Easton development in Columbus. Macy's is also apparently going in a some point.  But this development is much, much more than the stores.  It's about place. 

 

Just in case SAF is still out there...

 

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/breaking-news/police-fight-breaks-out-between-juveniles-the-liberty-center/EcgS925dzI7zJCuoCWRSJM/#

 

BUTLER COUNTY — 

A fight between two juveniles broke out this evening at the Liberty Center in front of Champs Sports, according to Butler County regional dispatch.

Police say security guards had to come out and break up the fight.

On 10/7/2013 at 10:31 PM, SWOH said:

 

Agreed with Brill. This location is ideal for this type of development, although I will argue that it is not ideal for anything extremely fru-fru, like Neiman Marcus or the like. Dillard's is probably about as high-end as it should go, and that's not a bad thing.

 

Outlet Malls - the only reasons why the one in Monroe are succeeding are:

 

1.  It is the only mall-like establishment in the area (aside from the unfortunately dead Towne Mall)

2.  The stuff it carries is not really "outlet" stuff - basically you pay the same price there as you would at a regular store location, same merchandise, etc.

 

 

Real outlet malls, like Jeffersonville, built their business model around being a day-trip destination for all of those "off-kilter" items, the stuff that truly did not make the cut at a regular store. Then someone got the idea that outlet malls should trick shoppers by putting regular merchandise in outlet locations. That seemed to go over well, and profits went up, until people finally began to realize they could get the exact same stuff they were getting at the outlet mall for the same price closer to home. So they did that instead. And that's not even factoring in rising gas prices and the fact that many of the hottest brands (lululemon for instance) don't really do outlet malls.

 

 

Also reading back through this thread, it's amazing how poorly this comment has aged, although I'd still consider the points about outlet malls selling stuff for the same price as a normal mall is still valid.

 

Liberty Center has really seemed to struggle getting tenants to move in, and recently has had some issues holding tenants.

^Can you share a little more detail on how you feel the comments aged poorly other than "agree with brill" ?? How are the Monroe outlets doing? I haven't been.

 

Remember folks, the only time you can be assured that you're getting a "deal" in retail is if you see progressively lower price tags stacked on top of each other. And the item still might suck!

^Sure! The part where I said Liberty Center was in a good location aged poorly too lol. Other than that I still agree with all of the outlet mall comments (which arguably the Monroe outlet mall is the best performing retail center between Dayton and Cincinnati). The Monroe outlet mall always seems to be packed whenever I go there.

 

It'll be really interesting to see where Liberty Center goes from here. I took a look at their directory map and am seeing a ton of vacancies... and I'm also seeing these vacancies in a lot of lower visibility spots created by the center's design. About 3-4 prominent spots are vacant that should not be vacant 3+ years after construction, that is for sure, but there's a lot of weird, blind areas built in to this development.

 

I don't see that being fixed easily, unless they are willing and able to get these spaces converted to office use. 

 

 

What's crazy is that last week I drove I-75 N to the Fox Highway for the first time in years, and didn't even notice Liberty Center.   It somehow has terrible visibility despite being at the  junction of two highways. 

 

What is Greystar planning to build across from Liberty Center?

3 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

What's crazy is that last week I drove I-75 N to the Fox Highway for the first time in years, and didn't even notice Liberty Center.   It somehow has terrible visibility despite being at the  junction of two highways. 

 

 

Really, Easton's wasn't all that good from 270 or even Morse until recently. It didn't look like much was going on. And somehow The Green looks small from 675 unless you look from the right angle.

Liberty Center would have made a lot of sense if we were a state/region that was booming, or if it was the centerpiece of a true new urbanist development — like if Liberty Township went all-in on new urbanism and form-based codes and wanted to make Liberty Center into a true town square.

 

But we are a slow growing state and region, and Liberty Township seems to be perfectly happy being an auto-centric suburb with little walkability and transit access. So all Liberty Center did was further divide all of the commerce that was happing at all of the other malls and strip malls in Cincinnati’s northern/northwestern burbs.

^Exactly. Growth rates have been slow in OH for a while now, all this does is shuffle the deck instead of drawing in new people.

 

This development would have done a lot better in Mason. There was a comment a couple years back from West Chester Twp. trustees (quoted in the Cincy Enquirer) saying that they thought it was moronic to put residential in their "town square" BS they have near the library off Union Centre Blvd. And 5+ years later, look at how much development has happened there since they blocked the residential building... NONE!

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3268145,-84.4307572,3a,60y,233.86h,86.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sX8ceMnCCUimvs479IuAvDw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I can't imagine Liberty Twp. trustees are any more progressive than their friends to the south.

Edited September 9, 20195 yr by SWOH

9 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Really, Easton's wasn't all that good from 270 or even Morse until recently. It didn't look like much was going on. And somehow The Green looks small from 675 unless you look from the right angle.

 

You definitely can't see Northgate Mall from I-275.  Its construction predated the circle freeway.  Then somebody snuck a strip mall into the sliver of land in between I-275 and Toys R Us, pilfered Northgate's prized JC Penny, and the rest is history. 

 

You can do anything, but lay off of my JC Penny. 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, SWOH said:

This development would have done a lot better in Mason.

 

Not preserving land for the Butler County Hwy to be extended eastward to I-71 - or at least very close to it - is the dumbest thing in Warren County History. 

 

I rode with my grandfather to Western Row Golf Course back in 1991 or thereabouts.  There wasn't jack squat out there.  All they had to do was preserve a ROW. 

6 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Not preserving land for the Butler County Hwy to be extended eastward to I-71 - or at least very close to it - is the dumbest thing in Warren County History. 

 

I rode with my grandfather to Western Row Golf Course back in 1991 or thereabouts.  There wasn't jack squat out there.  All they had to do was preserve a ROW. 

 

But to what end? To foster more sprawl? They'd spend beaucoup tax dollars on a new highway to continue to reshuffle the deck. Extending that highway would be a net tax loss in the long run. 

That whole area sprawled anyway. All of the land between I-75 and I-71 is now subdivisions.

 

If they would have extended the Butler County Highway to I-71, it would have made navigating the northern burbs much easier. Right now if you are driving from Columbus to Hamilton, you have to get off I-71, spend 15 minutes driving on back roads, then get back on the Veterans Highway. It's one of those planning things that drives you crazy because it would have taken minimal effort to preserve the ROW in the early 1990s if county leaders had any vision. But instead, they let the whole area get gobbled up by Drees and Fischer and M/I.

My understanding is that there were deliberate efforts by City of Mason and Warren County leadership to not preserve the R/W, as some did not want the highway. I do not have any documentation or evidence, although I think there were references in newspaper coverage from the early 2000s.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

That whole area sprawled anyway. All of the land between I-75 and I-71 is now subdivisions.

 

If they would have extended the Butler County Highway to I-71, it would have made navigating the northern burbs much easier. Right now if you are driving from Columbus to Hamilton, you have to get off I-71, spend 15 minutes driving on back roads, then get back on the Veterans Highway. It's one of those planning things that drives you crazy because it would have taken minimal effort to preserve the ROW in the early 1990s if county leaders had any vision. But instead, they let the whole area get gobbled up by Drees and Fischer and M/I.

 

Yes, but if they had built the highway then the current sprawl there would've been displaced to the north. Plus, the highway would've facilitated even MORE sprawl to the north. 

 

The best thing Warren County could do is develop downtown Mason in the same way that Dublin has. Build housing, retail, and restaurants and make it into a real city. That higher density development would pay for itself and subsidize the existing unsustainable sprawl. 

It's pretty tough to argue against having preserved the ROW to link the Fox Highway with Kings Mills Dr., or whatever it is called.  It didn't have to be a fully grade-separated expressway, or have a big interchange with I-71.  The way it is now is a worst-case scenario.  

 

Then there is the whole matter of the botched VOA Park...were we really so strapped for funds that they had to sell off a quarter of it for a strip mall?  

3 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

It's pretty tough to argue against having preserved the ROW to link the Fox Highway with Kings Mills Dr., or whatever it is called.  It didn't have to be a fully grade-separated expressway, or have a big interchange with I-71.  The way it is now is a worst-case scenario.  

 

Agree to disagree. We need more highways to maintain like we need a sharp stick in the eye. There is no argument for building such a road, other than to facilitate more sprawl. 

Everybody's already driving up in that area.  Mason did everything it could to create the Atlanta-ish suburban mess it now enjoys.  They severed the railroad that could have been a nice commuter link to the city, then they cut themselves off from I-75.  

I don't know if it's true, but growing up I always heard that Hamilton was "the largest city in America not connected to an interstate". Poor connectivity really hurt their manufacturing industry and made it harder for their citizens to commute when jobs left the city. Middletown had similar issues.

Had Butler Veteran's been extended all the way to 71, I don't think the sprawl in the Mason/ West Chester area would have been any better/worse. But it would have strengthened the most urban areas in Butler county. 

The big difference would have been if the Colerain Expressway had been built.  They started building it down in Northside and bought up a bunch of land but not enough.  Making that I-74 and not building I-74 as it currently exists probably would have been more useful, even though Northside, College Hill, and N College Hill would have been damaged.  

The case for/against highways... a bit off topic, but an interesting discussion for sure!

The smartest option seemed like the 1950's way highways were pitched to Americans... build them to the edge of cities, not through them.

 

That being said, for this particular set of highways I agree not keeping the ROW out to I-71 for OH 129 was short sighted.

But what would be even dumber is if they give up the possibility of building a highway as shown below... again I am NOT a highway advocate by any stretch of the imagination, but I am a hub airport advocate and am hoping one day, Cincy/Dayton could get a great hub airport right where AK Steel and Suncoke sit now.

 

(please excuse my very poor drawing skills, but what's in the purple blob would be the hub airport [terminal is lime green, runways are black], the red line is the highway, and the red circles would be interchanges... the highway would run from Oxford State Rd's end into Cincinnati-Dayton over to OH 48/US 42 intersection)

 

If that airport and highway happened, Liberty Center would probably be doing great!

 

Edited September 9, 20195 yr by SWOH

^^^I think Corpus Christi, Texas was actually the largest, and Hamilton was the second or third.

 

SR 4 was one of the options considered for routing of I-75, but was more expensive than going through farmland in Eastern Butler County. There's a story that ODOT held an open house about the routing on a Friday evening when Hamilton High School was holding a football game and a city council election was being held the following Tuesday, so all the local officials were at the game and ODOT went with the cheaper alternative. I don't know if SR 4 routing would have been good for Hamilton or Middletown's urban cores, however.

 

Connecting SR 129 between I-75 and I-71 with a toll and no interchanges would have been interesting, but probably even less desirable to locals in Warren County. 

Fresno California is the largest city with no interstate with a population of 494,000

And locally Lexington has no interstates with 323,000 people. It has New Circle Road, which is partially grade separated and partially stop lights, and even that road doesn't connect to I-75 or I-64 or really go anywhere.

 

If we are talking about short-sighted, the fact that Cincinnati built their airport on the south side and Dayton build theirs on the north side instead of combining forces on one airport roughly between the two (ala DFW) was insanely short sighted. 

If you get off 75 at Newtown pike, that is major road that gets you to circle 4 in less than 5 mins.  They have been adding lanes on circle 4 and the grade separated part of it essentially is a highway at this point.   While 75 does not go through the middle of downtown, I think the only reason the city hasn't sprawled completely over to it is the urban growth boundaries they have in place to protect their horse farms.