^^^That is done up nice.

 

 

^Yea, I think the retail sector has arrived at that point now, yet we still have some new neighborhoods who are trying to sqeeze every little bit out til it goes completely belly-up.    My hope is they don't do it to the point where they will be stuck with massive amounts of empty homes, retail, and industry space in 5-10 years when crap may be more in the toilet than it is today. 

 

Do they have any township trustees that have a backbone and will stand up against so much of the junk that is out there today or are they looking at dollar$$$$$ signs and thats it?

 

Lord knows we already got enough empty stuff scattered throughout Hamilton Cty.    This will be interesting to see how it pans out.       

 

Not to spiral this thread out of control, but didn't a rescent developer just back down from a major Retail Center near S. Lebanon?

This is more like Newport on the Levee II.

 

Millworks 2

The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure a similar plan was proposed when the Union Center exit was built on I-75. I'm an urban planning student at UC, currently on co-op. Today at work I was looking at project sheets for projects my employer has done, and saw a really great plan for a downtown/town center infill for West Chester. It was supposed to be mixed use, apartments, commercial, etc at "the new I-75 interchange". I graduated from Lakota and lived in West Chester 98' - 2003, and even though there is a lot at the Union Center exit that wasn't there in 2003, it looks like what was built is waaaaaay different than the mixed use center that was proposed.

 

Anyhow I guess my point is, I hope whatever is proposed for the new 1-75 exit will actually more 'urban' than suburban.

Density on the periphery isn't necessarily a good thing.  Most likely the people that work and shop there won't also live there...thus exacerbating the spatial mismatch that currently exists in modern day America where low-wage jobs are in the 'burbs and high-wage jobs are in the core with the population distribution being the exact opposite (for the most part).

 

I can tell you first hand (from living in Atlanta) that high-density developments, in the 'burbs, are not necessarily a good thing.

Density on the periphery isn't necessarily a good thing.  Most likely the people that work and shop there won't also live there...thus exacerbating the spatial mismatch that currently exists in modern day America where low-wage jobs are in the 'burbs and high-wage jobs are in the core with the population distribution being the exact opposite (for the most part).

 

I can tell you first hand (from living in Atlanta) that high-density developments, in the 'burbs, are not necessarily a good thing.

 

 

So are you saying its better that they continue to build suburban sprawl in the burbs than create high density walkable places?

 

While I think most on here would agree it would be better to have this project closer to an urban area, I would much prefer to see them build this (if they are going to continue to build on greenfields) than another Kroger/Target strip shopping center and 150 foot lot subdivisions.

^What I'm saying is that density on the peripheries of metropolitan areas tends to create polycentric metropolitan areas.  Polycentric metros, across the U.S., have seen lots of growth but have also seen massive problems with sustainability and congestion (see Atlanta, Phoenix, etc).

 

I don't think that we're on that path by any stretch of the imagination...I'm just saying that development out in the middle of nowhere is problematic regardless of whether it is low or high density...and actually high density development out there probably exacerbates the issues of sprawl even more so.

CincyDad -

 

I don't get what you're talking about at all.  This new project is perfect for the location and the breed of people in this area.  Right across the street is Wetherington.  It's one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Cincinnati.  One year it even beat Indian Hill for average household income.  Don't ask me how that was possible, but it did happen a few years ago.  A few miles down Hamilton Mason is Heritage Club.  That right there is about 400 households where the average home is around $1 million.  Then there is Four Bridges right next to that with another 400 or so houses averaging about $400k with several near and over $1 million.  Also across the street from this proposed development is a new really cool neighborhood called Harbour Town.  High detailed small homes with average selling price of $550,000.  This is all within just a couple miles of this proposed project and a big chunk right across the street from it.

 

Bridgewater Falls is in Fairfield Twp. and caters to that area and Hamilton and is basically a middle class shopping area.  It's not the type of shopping area that would have any high end stores.  Union Centre area is mostly strip centers, hotels, offices, auto dealers and restaurants for the most part.  West Chester and Liberty have a lot of high end residents and no shopping area catering to that.  There really isn't any "shopping" in Mason either aside from strip centers.  The high end shopping for that area is several miles down Mason Montgomery Rd. in Deerfield Twp.  And most of that area caters to Mason, Montgomery, Sycamore Twp., etc.

 

Middletown and Monroe will never have high end, at least in my lifetime.  Monroe has that outlet mall thing in the works, but it's a discount mall.  I know the Middletown area likes to pretend it is part of the Liberty/WC area, but it's not.  It's like 2 different worlds, 10 miles apart.  I'm from there and I don't know what happened to that city, but it's not the same city it was 15+ years ago.

 

And as far as transplants?  There's a huge amount of that in LT & WC.  It's one of the most transient areas of the Cincinnati Metro.  Most people that live here are not from here.  When people get transferred to Cincinnati, West Chester is where many of them go to look for housing.  It's a fact.  And another thing that sets WC & LT apart from most of SW Ohio is the amount of foreigners that live here.  It's not uncommon to hear different languages being spoken when grocery shopping.

 

I'm not saying it's heaven around here, but it's not as ridiculous as most people on this board make it out to be.  If the whole world was urban it would be boring.  Even downtown Cincinnati started out as a little village before it became a city.  I think a lot of urbanite minded people forget that every city starts out like that.  If this world is still here 100 or even 200 years from now, who knows what great city might rise from one of these suburb areas.

I think a lot of urbanite minded people forget that every city starts out like that.  If this world is still here 100 or even 200 years from now, who knows what great city might rise from one of these suburb areas.

 

It crossed my mind the other day of the possibility that a business district could spring up between Cincinnati & Dayton with office towers. I wouldn't be surprised at all. That would be well into the future but I can see it easily happening. Welcome to Daytonati, the central business district of the CinDay metroplex...  I don't think most people understand what is in store for that area. Cincinnati & Dayton was long destined to become one, so when I hear people complaining about losing their 'rural character' after they moved there, 1) They are contributing to the issue at hand  2) That process started long before they moved there  3) They didn't bother to educate themselves about the area and/or development trends.  4) The previous land owners helped shape the future by selling their farms, so who are these new residents to come in and try to change things.

 

*edit*  Steiner + Associates has a great track record of successful developments, so I don't think they would build an upscale Town Center in that location if they knew it would fail. If they build it people will come, and if you are waiting for failure, it will be a long wait!

*edit*  Steiner + Associates has a great track record of successful developments, so I don't think they would build an upscale Town Center in that location if they knew it would fail. If they build it people will come, and if you are waiting for failure, it will be a long wait!

 

I think Steiner has reached its peak.  They just built Bayshore Town Center here in Milwaukee and it's quickly becoming a total flop.  (MANY WILL DISAGREE WITH ME) But, the mall has been open about a year and three of the larger tenants have already closed up, the Apple Store has taken a beating, (Their door has had a plywood panel over the broken glass for months and now the apple logo above the door is hanging off the building) the movie theater is near bankruptcy, (as they should be, charging $14 for a decent seat)  the square is ALWAYS dead, and literally half of the mall has yet to find original tenants.  It's pretty bad.

Not to mention that when this this does fail, we're going to have one hell of an ugly empty shell.  You wouldn't believe how bad the architecture is. 

CincyDad -

 

I don't get what you're talking about at all.

 

Fair enough.  I was voicing my opinion about the whole Butler/Warren area in general.  You have some valid points about income and housing in the area.

 

Yes, most transplants from elsewhere probably do end up in the LT/WC area, as you say.  And there are some high-end housing there.  But I think the total number of people fitting that criteria, and continuing to fit that criteria, is small and shrinking.

 

Let's face it.  How may people working in the metro Cincy area can afford million dollar homes?  I bet the answer is, not many.  So a lot of those homes must have been sold to equity locusts from elsewhere in the country, who moved here.  Given the housing market elsewhere in the country, I have to think that a lot fewer people will be moving to the area and purchasing million dollar homes. I think this was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for developers to sell these homes in this area. 

 

A good working, professional salary in the area is probably around $75k.  So a typical professional couple (what % of the population fits that) could be pulling in $150k.  Say $200k tops.  My observation is that around here, once a husband starts pulling in $150k+, and with children in the family, the wife stays home.  Not saying if its good or bad, but that does seem to put a house-hold ceiling around here of $200k/yr.  At $200k/yr, that supports housing in the $500-$600k range.  So I guess you have a point about the very upper wealth buying houses in that range.  But very, very few people working around here can buy or sustain a million dollar house, without some bonus money like what Boston people brought when P&G bought up Gillet.  Don't look for that to continue.

 

 

But let me continue.... 

 

I live in Warren county, near the Monroe area.  My house per Zillow (ok, not the most accurate, but let's use it's numbers in this example) was recently valued at $285k Furthermor, it said that my house was valued at the 90% percentile of all of Warren county.  That means that only 10% of the houses in the county are valued higher than mine. I think Warren county housing is valued a bit higher than Butler county (from all the data I've seen), so let's say that my house is in the top 8% of the entire 2 county area.  So that makes me, based on housing, to be one of the upper class of the But/War region.

 

(I know my household income is not in the top 10% at all, I was just good at savings and buying real estate.)

 

Now, as to education, My wife has a PhD from a private Eastern school.  I have a Masters degree from that same school.  So we are easily amoung the most educated people in the region.

 

As to travel, we we lived in NY state for 15 years (did not make much money or real estate), my wife lived in Europe for a year, and we traveled all over Europe on many trips. I have a great number of friends from outside the US.  So as far as worldly travel, I'd say we are most likely in the upper 10%.

 

So if I use myself as the standard of a fairly educated, fairly worldly, fairly well-off family for the region, then I can start to evaluate proposed services as to whether they apply/appeal to an average person of the region, or to someone like me.  I will say that I meet very, very few people who have attained my level based on the criteria above.  Most are Physicians.

 

Actually, this is starting to become a circular arguement, and I'm starting to actually agree with you.

 

People like me do not buy fancy cars.  They do not shop high-end retail and eat out all the time.

 

So maybe the project will be a huge success because all the preppy wanna-bees in the area will probably spend themselves into bankruptcy at a new high-end retail area and buying BMWs and Lexus', and liquidating all the equity from their house that they gained while living on the east coast these past 10 years.

 

 

On a less personal level...

 

We both agree tht the area north of SR I-29 (the proposed site), that being Monroe and Middletown, does not have the income to support the proposed town center. 

 

There is plenty of shoping in the area: Bridgwater falls, Union center Blv, Tylersville Rd (mason west), Deerfield Town center and Fields/Ertle (mason east), and more planned along Cin-Day road, 2 miles south of the proposed site.  I just do not see how more retail can work.  And I do not see the income of the area, minus the equity people brought recently from the coasts, can support high-end retail (the wealthy can go to Deerfield).  If salaries continue to stagnate like they have for the past 5 years (based on inflation), I don't see where the disposable income is going to come from to justify more shopping, when there is already enough around.

 

Yes, there are a lot more foreigners here than there were 20 years ago.  But the only place I hear other languages is Jungle Jims (not in a wealthy area).  Cincinnati has never been known as a destination place for people to move to, unless their job caused it.  I don't see that changing drastically in the next 20 years.

 

A retail project will undoubtedly be built there.  But as someone pointed out, it has a real chance of going the way of Cincinnati Mills, or causing the other shopping in the area to go that way.

 

And as things seem to happen in But/War, the projects get greatly diluted after approval is given.  I still say that in t

CincyDad said,

 

"So maybe the project will be a huge success because all the preppy wanna-bees in the area will probably spend themselves into bankruptcy at a new high-end retail area and buying BMWs and Lexus', and liquidating all the equity from their house that they gained while living on the east coast these past 10 years."

 

First, that sentence made me laugh. Second, you probably are not very far off on that comment. Third, this described about 90% of Florida when I lived there minus all the plastic surgery.

 

^

 

LOL, Yea Rage...

 

Native Cincinnatians, and especially the But/War natives, are by nature pretty level headed people.  We aint flashy.  We are by nature fiscally conservative.  There is a lot of peer pressure to not try to act like you are better than everyone else.  There is a lot of peer pressure to "appear like the average person".

 

So if LT and WC are starting to get filled up with out-of-towners, then perhaps this project will succeed. They may not be subject to the same social pressures as the rest of us.  I doubt it would succeed anyplace else, except for maybe Mariemont.

 

Besides, who is there around here to impress?  There aren't any rich bachelors from the East looking for young trouphy wives.

 

.

The voice of rich suburbia speaks. This doesn't really address the question of froth in the real estate market, with LT at the forefront of that.

You obviously move in different circles than me.  I don't know anyone who eats out everyday.  I practicallty never eat out lunch more than 2x in a month.

 

I'll conceed to you that there are some people in WC/LT that have a lot of money. I'm just not sure there are enough of them to sustain still more retail shopping, and to sustain high-end retail shopping.

 

Maybe my perception of the area is wrong.  When I drive SR129 from I-75 over to Hamilton, what I see on either side of the road is what I think of when it comes to Liberty Township.  Lots and lots of medium level subdivisions.  When I drive thru Mason and Westchester, I see a lot more of the same.  Yes, there are pockets of upscale housing, but is it enough?

 

I've known a few wealthy people, but not in Ohio.  Yes, it is a game to them.  I've seen them start a number of companies and live it well... for awhile.  But in nearly all cases. the business eventually crashed and burned a few years later.  So most people I've seen who made it as business owners lost it all.  Not saying that's the case around here.  But small business owners can be on top of the world one day and in BK the next.

 

A lot of money has been poored into WC/LT in the past decade.  That has undoubtedly made a few people rich, but it's probably also given a lot of people higher annual incomes than they might normally have.  I'm suspecting that a slowdown in development in the area, in both residential and retail, will trigger a pull-back in the annual incomes of a lot of sales people, developers, builders, etc.  I'm not sure the area has developed the additional jobs and businesses necessary to sustain all the income that it the build-out efforts have generated. 

 

When your income comes from buying land and building houses and retail stores, what happens when the building slows significantly.  What is left?  Are there all those supply-chain business you talked about?  Certainly those small companies don't pay their staff really well.  Are there enough owners living in the area to compensate for a building slow-down?

 

Maybe I'm wrong. 

 

There will undoubtedly be more development in the area.  That isn't going to stop completely.  But the pace may very well slowdown.  And I'm not sure there is enough "business" in the area to sustain yet another shopping complex.  (Bridgwater Falls seems a lot closer than 7 miles when you drive it, and Tylersville road shopping area is only 2 miles away, but certainly not high-end stuff).

 

Certainly the people who have lived there all their lives don't have the income to sustain more and better shopping.  And if all those subdivisions I see along 129 and though-out Mason/Westchester are representative of the income levels of the area, things aren't hurting but I'm not sure there is enough money to justify high-end shopping.  We're seeing some canabalizing of shopping centers around the area as new ones are built.  Forest Fair was just an example of an empty mall.  If this project gets built, what will it do to Bridgewater Falls, Tylersville Rd, Union Center (streets of W/C?), and even Deerfield and Fields-Ertle road shopping districts?

 

 

dmerkow - If that was a reply to me, I don't understand what you are saying.

BTW - I do enjoy your insights to the wealthy of the area.  There are apprently more than I thought. 

 

Are most of these people getting their money from starting their own businesses?  And if so, where (geographically) are these business located?  Do people live in LT/WC but run businesses in Loveland, Lockland, Blue Ash?  I'm just curious.

 

^I always thought that the people in WC and LT are, for the most part, new money and kind of pseduo rich.  If you look at people in Hyde Park and Indian Hill, they have much different life styles than the folks in WC and LT.  Sure some people might go out to eat everday in WC, but it's probably going to be to Ruby Tuesdays or something similar, as there are really only moderately priced chains out there.  People in WC might go to a country club, but it's going to be a place like 4 Bridges which is nice, but compared to the Cincinnati Country Club, Hyde Park CC, Kenwood CC, Camargo CC, etc. it doesn't really stack up.  The true money gets spent in Kenwood, Hyde Park, Maderia's business district, and downtown.  The people in WC and LT just have different mind sets and attitudes when it comes to money.  That's why I don't see really upscale stuff working up there.

I used to live in the Hyde Park area back in the mid '80s.  I rode the bus downtown to work each day.  Most of the people on the bus were lawyers.  Even the "old" money in those lovely Victorian HP homes were thrifty with their money. And they often brown-bagged it as well.  Not a lot of flash or superfluous spending, from what I saw.  They especially complained about their tax bills after the reassessments.

 

My life emulates those people to some degree.  I live in a lovely Victorian home, brown bag it for lunch each day, and drive an old Chevy Cavalier.  I would take the bus if that was an option.  (my tax reassessment dropped last year, so I'm not complaining.)

 

I work in WestChester now.  I don't think many of my coworkers are like me, or like those Hyde Park lawyers.

 

 

We're seeing some cannibalizing of shopping centers around the area as new ones are built.

 

Well put!!

On top of this issue, I fear that IF things get bad for the middle class (pseudo rich) in the area, another issue is going to be many of the newer homes in the area.  (not the custom brick homes)  Many of the homes in the area are vinyl siding.    They are nice today, but what happens when these subdivisions start aging quickly and start showing signs of weather along with vacant retail in the area. 

 

I am not a fan of framed houses for this reason and I own one in Bridgetown. (Although, I am surrounded by 60 year old brick homes, so I don't have to worry about my neighbor keeping theirs up as long as I worry about my own.)  They just tend to age within a 10-15 year period and once a couple houses start looking bad, so does the entire neighborhood.  (Example: Ryblt Rd subdivision on the west side.)  I am not singling out LT/WC, because almost every town has developments like this, but they are heavily concentrated along the 75 corridor through Butler Cty and they may start to have trouble making owners of these properties do just the basics, like pressure washing the vinyl when needed. (Replacing the vinyl may be out of the question for people in the future if economic things stay as bad as they are trending today.)

 

Sorry, I am spinning this away from the original topic, but things like this will ultimately play into the scheme of things in LT/WC!!    It's great when everything around you is new, but maintaining the status quo is the hardest thing to do for most cities and townships.

^ agree with you about the concern for the quality of houses built in the area in the past 10 years.  If this area does indeed contain a significant number of corporate transfers.  Those people often plan to stay in a house for only 3 or 4 years, so they "perform" maintenance with that in mind. Then they move out of the area.  A couple of turnovers, and the effects of minimalistic maintenance can become an issue for the house and the neighborhood.

 

But debating the quality/longevity of new construction, especially in light of the rise in gas prices and distance from work centers, is a whole other discussion.

 

(ps - my house is wood frame.  wood siding too.  stone foundation as well, with dirt floor in the cellar.  after 130 years, everything looks great. so not all wood framing is bad.)

 

(pss. - know where I can get some scaffolding - cheap?)

 

^To buy?

 

This outfit is near Miamitown.  I don't know how they work or structure business.  Buy, Rent, Sell

That is about all I have outside of eBAY.

 

http://www.amscaf.com/

 

(ps - my house is wood frame.  wood siding too.  stone foundation as well, with dirt floor in the cellar.  after 130 years, everything looks great. so not all wood framing is bad.)

 

^ Agree, mine is 60 year old Aluminum that looks like brand new, but I have my reservations about an entire neighborhood of Vinyl.  It looks good brand new and if every couple of houses have it, but entire subdivisions are just asking for it.

As I drive down I-75 each morning past the SR-129 interchange, I notice that the 2 roads immediately north and south of the interchange ( a couple of hundred yards in each direction) are having additional column supports installed where they cross over I-75.  Presumabley the 2 roads will be widened, if not immediately, then in the near future.  One of thise roads is the site of this proposal (Hamilton-Mason Rd), bordered by I-75 and SR-129. 

 

So the infrastructure is being put in place for this right now.

 

(I know the SR129/I-75 interchange is being upgraded.  Just wanted to point out that the additional roads in the area are in the process of being widened as well, to facilitate development in the area)

 

Butler County Planning Commission approved the zone change this afternoon; it now goes to Liberty Township for approval. Several residents from Wetherington complained about traffic and noise. You live next to I-75 and are concerned about noise?

^Word, but groups really need to start putting a little resistance on thier local governments.  Especially these Townships.  ( No matter how powerless they are on some things)  Traffic would be a good excuse since it kills you in more ways than one to just sit in traffic.  Light after light after....................$$$$$$$$$$

 

From the Journal-News:

 

Liberty Town Square gets zoning approval

By Josh Sweigart

 

HAMILTON — The Butler County Planning Commission has unanimously approved a zoning change to help pave the way for a $250 million development essentially building Liberty Twp. a downtown.

 

Click on link for article.

 

http://www.journal-news.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/06/10/hjn061108LibertyCenter.html

saying both projects sent surrounding property values up.

 

 

That depends on how you "value" the surrounding property.  The all-mighty US dollar is just one way to value property.  If you use a "peaceful/quiete/retreat from urban noise and light" yard-stick to measure the value of the property, then it goes down.

 

Thorou (sp?) wrote in his famous book Walden Pond (which was recently partially saved from development) that 'A man is rich only in propotion to the number of things he can let be'.  In other words, 'only to the exinct he can let something alone'.  Apparently Liberty Township, and Butler County, are not rich enough to let this land remain as is.  They must change it to meet their basic needs.

 

I didn't expect this project to not get approved.  I'm just pointing out that the yardstick used to rebuke the local residents is not the only yardstick that matters. I think Planners typically have a hard time seeing that other yard-sticks matter.

 

Oh well, now it will be interesting to see what actually gets developed on the site.  Will this be another bait-and-switch tactic so often employed in But/War counties?  How "upscale" will it be?

 

 

With Steiner on the project, I believe the final product will be high quality as promised.

This land shouldn't be left as it is.  It's the perfect spot for this kind of development.  If people want peace and quiet, don't move anywhere near this area.  The people that showed up to protest were probably just busy bodies...  How can anyone buy a house in the last few years in this area and actually not be aware of all that is going on already.  It was a given.

Most of the people asked for buffering, only one was completely against the development (the one quoted).

 

This property was originally proposed and planned for a car lot (at least the vacant parcels on the highway), so this is a big bump in density. A number of single family homes are coming down for this as well.

It doesn't matter how many showed up, it's the whole point of people buying a home in an area where bulldozers are about as common as a car.  Then they throw fits thinking they are going to alter development.  It's ridiculous.  They've already got their own buffers in place that were there before the first houses went up.  In fact, the land their homes are on had numerous proposals floating around when it was still owned by the old farmer.  The old man that lived in that old narrow farm house was a tease.  He would say he was going to sell, then change his mind.  He's the reason Tylers Place Blvd. used to dead end where it did, he fought that in court.  That's why Wetherington Dr. dead ends in the weird way that it does.  There were talks of hotels, apartments, you name it.  I don't know if the old man died or what happened to him, but when his son gained control of the property the developers of Wetherington had to outbid business developers for that dirt so they could buffer in the main sections of Wetherington.  If you noticed, it's not connected by road to the gated area.  Harbour Town land was also being promoted for commercial use.  So these complainers bought homes on land that would have been high density.  Right across their neighborhood entrance on Tylers Place Blvd. is a chunk of land...  and guess what's going there.  Not houses.

 

This land area that is bordered by I-75, Fox Hwy, Cin-Day Rd. and soon to be widened Ham-Mason Rd. has had one idea floated around after another since back in the mid 90's when I first started selling real estate in this area.  So this is nothing new.  This is just the first time a group has managed to tie up all the parcels needed, put a proposal together and make it public.

 

A big bump in density is something like driving down Butler Warren Rd. about 10-12 years ago and then going back about 6 years after that and seeing what happened.  This is no big deal at all and like I said, it was a given.

Residents Raise Concerns Over Liberty Twp. Plans

 

Last Update: 6/21 12:55 am 

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=8d976496-b1e1-469d-bede-2ddef8b04f2f

 

Big Liberty Twp. project OK'd

Trustees hear from wary residents, then vote for hotel-retail-residential complex

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080708/NEWS0108/807080304/1169/NEWS

I always thought town centers were places where you could easily walk/bike to.

 

Does it make sense to call this the 'Town Center' when its bordered on the East by an 8-lane divided highway, on the North by a 4-6 lane divided highway, on the West by a 4+ lane highway, and on the south by a soon-to-be 5 lane highway?

 

This project has zero walkability.  And I thought I was the only person who got a zero on that town walk-ability test a year ago.

 

I always thought town centers were places where you could easily walk/bike to.

 

Does it make sense to call this the 'Town Center' when its bordered on the East by an 8-lane divided highway, on the North by a 4-6 lane divided highway, on the West by a 4+ lane highway, and on the south by a soon-to-be 5 lane highway?

 

This project has zero walkability.  And I thought I was the only person who got a zero on that town walk-ability test a year ago.

 

 

Soon you will be sitting out under the stars in the 'town center' listening to the band play while eating some cheesecake from the Cheesecake Factory.

 

I am not a fan of suburban greenfield development. But, if we are going to continue to build on greenfields, at least this project has some density, mixed use and is walkable within the project. It beats another strip shopping center, with a tree buffer, than a row of suburban houses, followed by another tree buffer, before you get to the office building, followed by another tree buffer....

 

America continue to kick itself in the butt, over and over and over....

 

Petition to seek residents' vote on Liberty plan

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080710/NEWS01/807100386/1168/NEWS

Are these people 'simple minded' or what!?  :wtf:  They are the reason this is being built in the first place. They act as if the only people who are going to be shopping there are from their community. These developers & businesses do not care about municipal boundaries, wow! unbelievable!!!...  :drunk:

I guess Tim is trying to redeem himself for the failure of his Legacy Place Referendum. Perhaps if he is lucky the plan will fall through, just like Legacy Place seems to have.

Are these people 'simple minded' or what!?   

 

I do not understand this statement.

 

When you buy a house, you are also buying a neighborhood - i.e the surrounding land. That neighborhhod has a certain density, a certain style, a certain 'feel' (quiet, lively, etc). 

 

But a neighborhood is also a place you expect to stay for many years, and to that extent, you want some assurances that it will not change drastically over time.  Without that protection, it's hard to plunk down $200+k and set roots.  And that is what zoning is all about... giving potentual residents some protection when they decide to invest their life (much more than their money) into a neighborhood.

 

Now, no one expects the neighborhood to stay stationary, but they also do not expect major upheavels in the neighborhood.  Zoning is put in place to minimize changes, and to afford the local residents some say in how the changes do take place.

 

Take a nice, new subdivision, for instance. Typically zoned Residential. If a person buys a house there, they expect the subdivision to stay a residential place for many, many, years.  They expect to put down some roots, enjoy time with their neighbors, have their kids play with neighborhhood kids and attend local schools together.  Yes, more houses are likely to be built, but that is well known at the time of purchase.  And turnover can slowly erode or enhance a neighborhood. Changes that take place gradual and in a 'not unexpected' way are part of the equation. 

 

But any change the has a material effect on the neighborhood should be subject to neighborhood approval.

 

What if I buy a house in that subdivision, then decide 2 years later that I want to turn the place into a junk yard?  Do the neighbors have a right to say no?  It's my property, right?  I should be able to do what-ever I want with it, so the arguement often goes. I should be able to tear down the house and pile tons of abandoned cars on it. (OK, I'll put a fence around it).  I should be able to have tow trucks coming and going all day and night to my place, with their loud beeping backing noise.  (I'll assume for this argument that I get a zoning change to open a junk yard, one that is open for public business.)

 

But wait, that's not what the neighbors invested in when they bought their house and put down roots.  When they bought, the place was zoned residential.  It was quiet, with limited traffic, nice homes, etc.  The addition of a junk yard in the middle of this has a material affect of the place, and in this case, it's not positive.

 

Had my little piece of the neighborhood been zoned commercial when people were buying their houses, they may very well not have bought.  They may have decided not to invest their lives in the area.  Or they may have bought anyway, but at a significantly reduced price (which presumably would have changed the characteristics of the neighborhood as well).

 

So people make decisions to invest their time, energy, families, money in a neighborhood, counting on zoning to afford some protection that I do not come in and open a junkyard, a gas station, a liquor store, a Cheesecake Factory, or even a foundry, next door.  The zoning is their assurances that the investment they make will not be sudenly destroyed.

 

Zoning is not the only factor, nor is it a guarantee, but it does provide a significant amount of protection.

 

So when someone wants to materially affect the neighborhood, they need to go about getting a zoning change, which allows neighbors to essentially say if they want their area significantly changed. 

 

Isn't this what the neighbors of the proposed Liberty Town Center are saying?  There are plenty of people who bought in the area over the previous years, and made investments of their time, emotions, energy in the "neighborhood" based in the zoning.  They have seem commercial come to the fringes of the area, and have seen the traffic and noise changes. 

 

The proposed area is undoubtedly zoned agriculture/residential.  Now someone is proposing to change the zoning to commercial.  But that's not what the neighbors were counting on when they invested their lives in the area.  So shouldn't they have a say in all this?  Shouldn't they be able to say that enough commercial exists in the immediate area, and that no more should be built.  Shouldn't they be able to say that their "neighborhood" will be materially affected, even destroyed, by this? 

 

What is the use of zoning if you can change it willy-nilly?  Why have zoning at all?  If I can't look to the area zoning when making a house purchase/life investment, then why even go thru the efforts of zoning?  Why don't we just eliminate zoning altogether and let everyone do what-ever they want with their property, regardless of what the neighbors want?  Can we just change the rules whenever we want?

 

It's not like this is a zoned commerical area that the neighbors are looking to keep from getting used as such.  Instead, it's a case where someone wants to come into their neighborhood, tear down several houses, put up a huge paved-over complex, and bring in thousands of new cars everyday past current resident's houses - houses where the neighbors probably sleep at night with their windows open to catch the breeze, and who sit on their porches gazing at the stars at night while listening to the Reds game on the radio.  That's what they invested in those many years ago.

 

So I don't understand why the local residents do not have a right to say "wait a minute, we don't want this".  I don't understand why they don't have a right to fight this.  I don't understand why the developers even have a right to expect to be able to do this.  I think a neighborhood vote is certainly in order.  Unfortunately, it's not just the neighborhood, but the entire township that gets to vote.  And most of those township residents are probably not materially affected (in a negative way), by this.  I think only the residents living withing 1 or 2 miles of the proposed construction, who would be adversly affected in some meaningful way, should get to vote on it, since they are the ones who must make life changes to accommodate it!

 

 

 

While I agree locals should have a say in what takes place in their community. I would also say that anyone who buys a home within a 1/2 mile of a freeway, in a rapidly growing suburban area, should expect to see noticeable development over a 10 to 20 year period.

 

The honest truth is, people are afraid of change, especially when its something 'different' than what they are use too. This project is something new to the Cincy suburban market, and has a little density to it. Since its not your typical Kroger strip center with Drees suburban housings surrounding it must be bad? (Because that is what most of them live in.) The Greene in Dayton didn't destroy that suburban area (matter of fact, most of the suburbanites like it now that its built and it at least gave that area a little sense of place) and neither will this project.

The proposed area is undoubtedly zoned agriculture/residential.

 

Actually, the property is already zoned commercial - B-2 Community Business District.

Maybe this project isn't the best example for making my arguement, but I think my arguement holds ground anyway. 

 

Yes, this project will get built.  I'll have to go take a second look at The Green in Dayton to see how the development fits in with the surrounding area. (I've been there once before.)  Maybe by building this project they will take pressure off building additional retail areas a few miles north (where I live).

 

But really, how different is this from a strip mall?  The inside composition may be a little different, but again, it's a big noisy, bright, car magnet with a lot of generic shopping. I don't thing The Green has that much uniqueness to it. Do we need that out in Liberty township?  Don't we already have that at BridgwaterFalls and Tylersville Rd, in addition to the Krogers strip mall across the street from this project?   

 

Wouldn't it be better to just put in the office buildings, and not add the retail?  And to make them low-hight with diminished lighting, so as to minimize its impact on the landscape?  I suppose this particular site is more likely to draw a big, high-rising project.

 

But the local residents of Bulter and Waren county have seem a great deal of changes in their neighborhoods, and many have had enough and are starting to fight back.  The local governments seem to have forgotten why people live in these areas.  People could live in a crowded subdivision if they want to, but they choose the area because its not a crowded subdivision, or a city like Hamilton! or Mason. 

 

The residents of an area certainly have the right to try to maintain the characteristic of a place, and it sounds like the homeowners are starting to speak up in a major way.  They probably won't stop this project, but perhaps their voices will have more impact on the next project that is proposed in the area.

 

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson himself that said ... it is the duty of each citizen to rise up in revolt against it own government if they deem that government to be acting in a harmful way way to the citizens.... or some such words. (I think he actually included armed revolt in the passage).  So if the residents of the area think the local government is not protecting their way of life, the citizens have the duty, not just the right, to oppose the elected officials.

 

One of the big problems in Ohio that I've noticed since I moved back here is that the concept of local representation does not really exist.  There are some 33,000 people on LIberty Toenship, spread out over a large area.  There are probably less than 10,000 people affected by building this project.

 

Butler county has what.. 330,000 people.  so only 10% live in Liberty Township.  Since the county officials are elected county-wide, and there are only 3 commissioners, the people of Liberty Township effectively do no have representation at the county level.  (Don't all the county commissioners come from the Hamilton area?)

 

Even at the local level, there are only 3 township trustees, and they are elected township wide.  For a township the geographic size of Liberty Township (or even worse - Turtlecreek township outside Lebanon which is nearly 15 miles wide), this makes it likely that large areas of the township do not have local representation either.  So a geographically concentrated area of people can enforce their wishes on geographically large areas of less population density.

 

I think Ohio should switch to a regional county elected officials, and increase the number to something like 20.  With 20 county commissioners, each representing a seperate geographic region of the county, then you would be closer to the concept of local representation.  Then the residents could really argue for the make-up of their neighborhoods, without 2 people from the middle of a distant city making unilateral dicisions over the unanamous objection of residents.

 

 

 

I guess I'm complaing less about the project itself than I am about the whole process of county/township "planing and zoning".

You actually hit on one of the main problems. Townships!!!!! This form of 'government' and its power at the state level has done Ohio a great deal of damage. It has restricted cities from expanding and causing a lot of unorganized development. Liberty township should be a municipality and so should West Chester. Then the residents of these areas will have their own city council and vote within their boundaries. These areas should be taxed to deal with their road problems, lack of parks, services, etc... They should have comprehensive plans that look at the entire 'township' and how everything needs to fit together. Until Ohio and/or the township residents themselves address this issue; sprawl, financing, taxes, public voice, etc... are going to continue to be a huge issue.

 

As far as what makes this project different from an suburban office park or strip shopping center. It integrates office, retail, residential and community gathering place into one pedestrian oriented environment. It may not be integrated into its surroundings (freeways on two sides) but, at least a person could drive to this location and actually shop, work, live, etc... without having to get back in the car to do each item individually.

the damage done by townships and governments that encourage them can be summed up in a word: Michigan

Unfortunately this was a problem that could have been solved a hundred years ago or maybe 50, but now township residents for outweigh the number of municipal residents. The only way to get some like that passed would be to end the ability of cities to tax commuting workers. This would completely crush the current cities unfortunately.

Cincinnati has never been known as a destination place for people to move to, unless their job caused it. 

The 2.2 million people had to come from some where.

Cincy has long done a decent job getting folks from rural Ohio and Kentucky in addition to the small but real number of folks from the various big corps around town.