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Liberty Township: Liberty Center

Guest UncleRando
Guest UncleRando
in Southwest Ohio Projects & Construction

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Tri-County Mall is dead and has been on the decline for years now.  The Dillard's there was never busy.  I'm surprised they don't close it outright as I've heard they're on a month to month lease. Liberty Center is a response to the lack of decent shopping in the northern burbs.  Not the cause of Tri-County Mall's ultimate demise.  Thank God for the coming Liberty Center so the residents of the booming northern suburbs will have a really nice, actually extraordinary, place to shop and play.

...will have a really nice, actually extraordinary, place to shop and play...with Dillard's.

"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Amen, y'all!

Tri-County has been declining for some time prior to the announcement of Liberty Center. Friend who works in management at that Macy's complains about the lack of business in their store all the time, and the vagrants that seemingly hang out inside the mostly empty concourse - with a handful of shops that are mostly Type B/C retailers. BJ's holds up the corner well, but it's disconnected from the rest of the mall.

As  much as I deplore the traffic and congestion I anticipate Liberty Center will bring close to where I live, I also realize there is no way to stop it. In addition to the initial development I fear the volume of crap which will grow up around it, further increasing the traffic and conjestion. It will take no time at all to overwhelm the new Liberty Way interchange at I-75 plus all of the street widening which has been occuring in Mason and Liberty township.

 

Kenwood Towne Center is definitely the premier and most successful mall in Cincinnati. I feel a great deal of that is due to Indian Hill being only a stones throw away. Then you add Madeira, Montgomery, and Blue Ash which are no slouches relative to affluence. Factor in the lack of retail downtown and you suddenly have Hyde Park, Mt Lookout, Mariemont, and how many others flocking to Kenwood?

 

I really feel a loss at the increasing demise of Tri-County. Very soon we will have two large malls within a few miles of each other (I am including Cincinnati Mills or whatever its latest reincarnated name is) which are virtual ghost towns. But I also recognize business follows the money. And right now the money is in West Chester and Liberty Townships and Mason.

I think Steiner made a big gaffe when they selected this site for their "Easton South" (my phrasing) development.  I saw a graphic once that I believe came from Steiner materials that listed the shopping centers in the Cincinnati area, in relation to where Liberty Center is going.  It showed a large market area for LC, with Tri County being the closest option listed.  What was not on the map was Deerfield Town Center, Bridgewater Falls, or the Cincinnati Premium Outlets.  All three of these, not to mention the competition from Kenwood, will take a lot of business away from Liberty Center, IMO.  Also, the money is off 71, not 75.

But there are no major markets north of Cincinnati via Interstate 71 until you get to Columbus. With Interstate 75, you can siphon off of the southern tier of Dayton, and Middletown and Hamilton - which are no small towns.

True. Though there is Lebanon and Wilmington, but they are obviously smaller than Middletown and Hamilton.  Doesn't Middletown have its own mall, though? And Bridgewater is closer to Hamilton than this development. 

Middletown does, but it's all but dead. Bridgewater is closer to Hamilton off of SR 129 at Exit 18 versus Exit 24.

I think Steiner made a big gaffe when they selected this site for their "Easton South" (my phrasing) development.  I saw a graphic once that I believe came from Steiner materials that listed the shopping centers in the Cincinnati area, in relation to where Liberty Center is going.  It showed a large market area for LC, with Tri County being the closest option listed.  What was not on the map was Deerfield Town Center, Bridgewater Falls, or the Cincinnati Premium Outlets.  All three of these, not to mention the competition from Kenwood, will take a lot of business away from Liberty Center, IMO.  Also, the money is off 71, not 75.

 

I cannot agree with your assessment. First of all nobody in their right mind would go up against Kenwood Towne Center right out of the chute. Second, the money is off I-71 until you hit I-275, then it rapidly shifts West. Mason, being between I-71 and I-75 goes either way and on into Butler Co. in the presence of West Chester and Liberty townships. Deerfield Town Center and Bridgewater Falls are both nice places, and for my money all we needed, but not the scale of Liberty Center. Cincinnati Premium Outlets if another one of the discount genre rapidly fading from the scene as they are selling pure comeon. If you don't believe what I am saying just drive up I-71 to Washington Courthouse or Jeffersonville and see the outlet malls there dying on the vine.

 

Much as I hate to say it, Liberty Center was the best location for Steiner's "Easton South". They are developers and do not look very far down the road, just the here and now. I do believe they will steal customers from Deefield Town Center and Bridgewater Falls. And they will put a major dent in the Middletown Mall ever resurrecting itself.

I think Steiner made a big gaffe when they selected this site for their "Easton South" (my phrasing) development.  I saw a graphic once that I believe came from Steiner materials that listed the shopping centers in the Cincinnati area, in relation to where Liberty Center is going.  It showed a large market area for LC, with Tri County being the closest option listed.  What was not on the map was Deerfield Town Center, Bridgewater Falls, or the Cincinnati Premium Outlets.  All three of these, not to mention the competition from Kenwood, will take a lot of business away from Liberty Center, IMO.  Also, the money is off 71, not 75.

 

I cannot agree with your assessment. First of all nobody in their right mind would go up against Kenwood Towne Center right out of the chute. Second, the money is off I-71 until you hit I-275, then it rapidly shifts West. Mason, being between I-71 and I-75 goes either way and on into Butler Co. in the presence of West Chester and Liberty townships. Deerfield Town Center and Bridgewater Falls are both nice places, and for my money all we needed, but not the scale of Liberty Center. Cincinnati Premium Outlets if another one of the discount genre rapidly fading from the scene as they are selling pure comeon. If you don't believe what I am saying just drive up I-71 to Washington Courthouse or Jeffersonville and see the outlet malls there dying on the vine.

 

Much as I hate to say it, Liberty Center was the best location for Steiner's "Easton South". They are developers and do not look very far down the road, just the here and now. I do believe they will steal customers from Deefield Town Center and Bridgewater Falls. And they will put a major dent in the Middletown Mall ever resurrecting itself.

 

Liberty Center is in an outstanding location.  It's right in the bulls eye in the center of the coming Cincinnati/Dayton Metroplex.  I think Bridgewater Falls will not be affected very much if at all.  It is more of a big box/discount store center and there will be little to no tenants in common.  I do believe Deerfield Town Center will be affected.  They just added Ashley Furniture and several years ago buy buy baby, so they are moving away from the upscale tenant base.  I believe it will lose some stores like New York and CO though.  The old Borders is still empty and should be filled with a store like Bed, Bath, and Beyond owned Christmas Tree Shops (a store like Big Lots but upscale).  There is one in Florence, KY.  BB and B also owns buy buy baby. With a more moderate tenant mix, I think DTC will survive Liberty Center.     

^There are literally farms an exit past this location. It's country. Anything past Tylersville is far out there for the majority of the Cincinnati area.  If you're in Dayton or its suburbs, The Greene is probably your best bet for "destination" shopping.  If you're in Cincinnati, it's Kenwood.  Liberty Center will only be convenient for the low density exurbs of Cincy and Dayton. 

^There are literally farms an exit past this location. It's country. Anything past Tylersville is far out there for the majority of the Cincinnati area.  If you're in Dayton or its suburbs, The Greene is probably your best bet for "destination" shopping.  If you're in Cincinnati, it's Kenwood.  Liberty Center will only be convenient for the low density exurbs of Cincy and Dayton.

 

We are not talking about the majority of Cincinnati. What we are talking about are the low density exurbs of Cincy you denote as something to be ignored. Well wake up, these so called low density exurbs have some of the highest wage earners in the entire area. If the residents of simply West Chester and Liberty Townships plus Mason frequent this place it will be enormously successful. And if others like the rapidly expanding Monroe district, plus people from Lebanon chime in it will go through the roof.

kjbrill, I think you're wrong about outlets dying.  I think that the outlets in Jeffersonville are hurting because of the Monroe outlet mall.  I know that I very rarely head up there these days now that Monroe is open.  (I don't have any idea about the trends for outlet stores nationwide.) 

Jeffersonville has been declining for years even before Monroe. There was one near Dry ridge ky but I have no clue how it is doing.

^There are literally farms an exit past this location. It's country. Anything past Tylersville is far out there for the majority of the Cincinnati area.  If you're in Dayton or its suburbs, The Greene is probably your best bet for "destination" shopping.  If you're in Cincinnati, it's Kenwood.  Liberty Center will only be convenient for the low density exurbs of Cincy and Dayton.

 

We are not talking about the majority of Cincinnati. What we are talking about are the low density exurbs of Cincy you denote as something to be ignored. Well wake up, these so called low density exurbs have some of the highest wage earners in the entire area. If the residents of simply West Chester and Liberty Townships plus Mason frequent this place it will be enormously successful. And if others like the rapidly expanding Monroe district, plus people from Lebanon chime in it will go through the roof.

 

Agreed with Brill. This location is ideal for this type of development, although I will argue that it is not ideal for anything extremely fru-fru, like Neiman Marcus or the like. Dillard's is probably about as high-end as it should go, and that's not a bad thing.

 

Outlet Malls - the only reasons why the one in Monroe are succeeding are:

 

1.  It is the only mall-like establishment in the area (aside from the unfortunately dead Towne Mall)

2.  The stuff it carries is not really "outlet" stuff - basically you pay the same price there as you would at a regular store location, same merchandise, etc.

 

 

Real outlet malls, like Jeffersonville, built their business model around being a day-trip destination for all of those "off-kilter" items, the stuff that truly did not make the cut at a regular store. Then someone got the idea that outlet malls should trick shoppers by putting regular merchandise in outlet locations. That seemed to go over well, and profits went up, until people finally began to realize they could get the exact same stuff they were getting at the outlet mall for the same price closer to home. So they did that instead. And that's not even factoring in rising gas prices and the fact that many of the hottest brands (lululemon for instance) don't really do outlet malls.

 

Not sure where this idea that outlet malls are dying has come from. Actually, they are going gangbusters right now and are being built across the country at record pace.  The Dry Ridge Outlet mall in in Northern Kentucky is old school (basically a strip mall), is dead, and has been for many years.  An upscale outlet center will be opening along I-64 between Louisville and Lexington in 2014:  http://www.cblproperties.com/pag.nsf/DevelopmentsWeb/Outlet+Shoppes+at+Louisville+Development?opendocument    There were two outlet centers in Jeffersonville.  The better designed and located one survived and is thriving under the ownership of Tanger Outlets.  Cincinnati Premium Outlets, owned by Simon Property Group, is 100% leased and is also thriving.  Again, where is it coming from that these outlets are not doing well??? Sorry, but the reason given above as to the success of the Monroe outlets is not at all accurate.  The flaw in OHKID's theory is, it's not local shoppers that keep outlets malls afloat. They are built along major highways for a reason.  Thousands of cars pass by daily.  YES, it's the travelers that support these outlet malls!!!!!!!!  A major fact that no one is taking into account.   

The flaw in OHKID's theory is, it's not local shoppers that keep outlets malls afloat. They are built along major highways for a reason.  Thousands of cars pass by daily.  YES, it's the travelers that support these outlet malls!!!!!!!!  A major fact that no one is taking into account.   

 

An issue with the "Travelers" theory -  How many "travelers" really are out there anymore? I do not have formal statistics, but I do know anyone personally who budgets extra time to stop at the outlet mall in route from one location to another. If I have to go from Cincinnati to Columbus, I budget 2 hours and that is it.

 

Outlet malls were built in the locations where they are today because they tried to target the largest possible market with the easiest possible highway access. But with rising gas prices, there's not much value in spending $10 in gas plus wear and tear on your car to get a $5 discount on clothes at the outlet mall.

 

 

 

To go back on topic, it will be interesting to see how the Monroe outlets have to position themselves after Liberty Center is built. Although I doubt there will be a ton of overlap in the stores offered at the two sites, I'm thinking the Monroe outlets are going to have to re-tool their approach and start serving a lower price demographic. The good news in that is it might allow some re-development of Towne Mall to actually take off as its main competitor would be Liberty Center / Tylersville, not the Monroe outlets as is the case right now.

Another step closer...........................http://www.journal-news.com/news/news/zoning-approved-for-mega-retail-project/nbKL5/

Sprawl Mall, and fighting for the almighty sales tax dollar, plain and simple.

  • 2 months later...

Find it hard to believe they are going through this project without the second retail anchor....

 

Especially since they probably pitched the site to Saks (and lost) and there is no word on Macy's moving from Tri-County yet. They must be very confident that they will be able to pick up enough of Tri-County's scraps to make this viable.

Find it hard to believe they are going through this project without the second retail anchor....

 

Especially since they probably pitched the site to Saks (and lost) and there is no word on Macy's moving from Tri-County yet. They must be very confident that they will be able to pick up enough of Tri-County's scraps to make this viable.

    Actually, you have no idea what this place is.  I have no doubt that they didn't try to land SAKS as an anchor.  This project isn't about department store anchors.  That's the old way.  Here, "place" will be anchor.  They don't need "scraps" from Tri-County Mall to make Liberty Center viable.  It's success is guaranteed, no matter what's going on at Tri-County.  I do believe though, that there will be a second department store anchor in phase 2.  So far the major tenants are Dillard's and CineBistro.  I'm thinking at groundbreaking, additional major tenants will be announced.    Here is Steiner's philosophy about "place", (not department stores) as anchor:  http://www.steiner.com/portals/0/pdf/steinerreprints/SteinerShoppingCenterBusinessReprint.pdf

Find it hard to believe they are going through this project without the second retail anchor....

 

Especially since they probably pitched the site to Saks (and lost) and there is no word on Macy's moving from Tri-County yet. They must be very confident that they will be able to pick up enough of Tri-County's scraps to make this viable.

    Actually, you have no idea what this place is.  I have no doubt that they didn't try to land SAKS as an anchor.  This project isn't about department store anchors.  That's the old way.  Here, "place" will be anchor.  They don't need "scraps" from Tri-County Mall to make Liberty Center viable.  It's success is guaranteed, no matter what's going on at Tri-County.  I do believe though, that there will be a second department store anchor in phase 2.  So far the major tenants are Dillard's and CineBistro.  I'm thinking at groundbreaking, additional major tenants will be announced.    Here is Steiner's philosophy about "place", (not department stores) as anchor:  http://www.steiner.com/portals/0/pdf/steinerreprints/SteinerShoppingCenterBusinessReprint.pdf

 

I have to agree its success is assured. Just Liberty Township, West Chester Township, and Mason are enough to make it successful, and once it is completed they will flock there. Other locales such as Lebanon will just add to the success.

 

I don't believe it is going to help Hamilton or Middletown much though. They are going to look 2nd rate in comparison and it might set them backward. Tri-County is far enough away it might not be totally devastated, but it certainly will not help. We used to go to Tri-County frequently, now rarely if ever.

I guess that depends on the definition of "success".

 

 

As a mall replacement.... no.

I have a strong suspicion that its tenant mix will strongly resemble what leaves Tri-County and chooses to continue operation in the northern Cincy area. And probably a decent mix of stores will locate there that did not want to give Tri-County a go like White House/Black Market, H&M, Chico's, etc but I doubt that store population will eclipse 25% of the total retail footprint. So basically it will lead to more retail de-centralization, creating an overall weaker retail environment in the northern suburbs. Tri-County will still operate in a weak capacity, and the center will be competing for stores and retail traffic against Mason, Tylersville Rd., Union Centre, Bridgewater Falls, and even Monroe with its outlet mall (Saks off 5th probably wouldn't have been a bad fit for this center).

 

For a large case study on what de-centralization does to a retail environment, take a look at the northern Dayton area - it has the population and economy to support a large centralized retail location, and did support one for a while. But poor location and changing demographics killed the central retail core (Salem Mall), and its capacity was never replaced in the northern Miami valley. Instead, multiple weaker retail centers exist, and it will be hard for the area to land stores which would probably locate to the area if one strong retail center existed.

 

 

As a "place"... possibly.

This depends on your definition of place in the built environment. If you believe "place" is a new urbanist interpretation of a traditional city core, then possibly - although with the current distribution of retail to office, residential, etc. this development appears to place a heavy emphasis on the retail component if it were to be judged as an urban development.

 

So as an urban substitute I do not see this development being a success. The site is entirely hemmed in by highways, making it impossible to walk off its grounds. And plus, where would you walk to? It may be possible to live, work, and shop at the site, but I don't imagine it would be possible to live there without a car as it would in a city.

But if "place" simply means a traditional new urbanist development in a greenfield, then yes it will be a success.

 

 

As a revenue generator... possibly.

I know the Greene in Dayton has been very successful. And most of that success does not even have to do with its retail offerings - its mix of independent and chain restaurants and bars is its real success. In fact, they probably could have cut the amount of retail in half and replaced it with office space or residential and it still would have been just as successful as it is now.

 

But the verdict is still out on whether or not the Greene will have a long (50+ yr) life span. I'm hoping it will, but retail odds say it won't - most centers generally aren't planned with any future past 20 years. Look at Eastland Mall, Brice Rd. and the rest of eastern Columbus if you want a good example.

 

At least this center will be easier to mold based on changing demographics and tastes over time than a traditional mall. Retail can be converted to office, office can be converted to residential condos, and residential condos can be converted to apartments with relative ease. What will be needed is a strong leasing partner with this development over the long term to ensure its success - and since Steiner has a number of these centers now, hopefully they will stay behind them for the long term. If not, then I wouldn't bet on any financial success.

Based on the success of other lifestyle centers, I am not worried about the success of this development once it is completed and opened (at least in the short term/15-20 years, although I think it will fare better than most malls long term).

 

However, development is a challenge to finance these days. This is why I do find it valid to be concerned about the development moving forward without significant leasing announcements. The developer keeps indicating that construction is pending and imminent, so perhaps they have more together than is public at this point, but no matter how great a "place" a development creates, a bank/lender has to feel comfortable with preleasing as an indicator of payback ability.

I'm under the assumption that Middletown's Towne Mall is dead, and that its redevelopment as a town center is even further off.

Last I've heard about its redevelopment...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/morning_call/2013/01/middletown-mall-in-line-for-20m.html

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/new-towne-mall-owners-purchase-elder-beerman-prope/nZNXQ/

 

They also have a Facebook page, little development updates though aside from a name change to "Towne Mall Galleria"

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Towne-Mall-Galleria-in-Middletown-OH/122819054544548

 

 

Interesting they purchased the E-B property. To me, this seems like a straightforward renovation - subdivide the Dillard's property into 3-4 big box units, entice a movie theater to locate at the south entrance (and the Danbarry would convert to a second-run format in response), and try hard to get Burlington Coat Factory at the site if E-B decides to leave. And the August DDN article acknowledges they have obtained four "major tenants" at the Dillard's site.

 

I don't think the mall will ever compete as a regional mall again, but I can see it as a viable local center with good positioning. The JCP remodel at Northgate into multiple big-box stores has been very successful, and it is evident from there, Dayton Mall, and what's left of Tri-County that there is a strong trend towards big-box stores moving out of shopping centers and into malls. Just to list the stores which have recently moved from shopping center locations to Northgate Mall, Dayton Mall, or Tri-County Mall:

 

- Marshall's

- Burlington Coat Factory

- DSW Shoes

- h.h. gregg

- Michael's

- Dick's Sporting Goods

- Ethan Allen

- Ulta Cosmetics

 

Some of which would be a good fit and some would not at Towne Mall, and all of which could probably support a store in that general area as well as the Tylersville / Liberty Center area. Housing/condo/apartment prices are low in Middletown, and there is a lot of office space so I doubt a lifestyle center would work.

^A new 12-screen cinema is planned across I-75 near the new Atrium Medical Center, so that option is off the table.

 

The new owners seem to have capital, but they do not have any experience owning/operating/development a mall, so it will be interesting to watch. They already failed to negotiate a lease renewal with Dunham Sports and lost them as a tenant.

SAF, I'm assuming you have some sort of inside connection to Steiner. Is there any chance they are building a pedestrian bridge across Oh 129 to actually make this a walkable community to major employment and educational venues? ( Cincinnati Children's and Lakota East HS respectively)

  • 1 month later...

Nothing written in stone yet, I guess.  Most of those stores listed are not necessarily groundbreaking but are solid.  Getting a second Apple store would be a coup. 

I would be a little surprised if Apple actually located a second store there. They already have one at Kenwood which seems to get most of their target market in Mason, West Chester, and the east side of Cincinnati.

 

I would rather see an Apple store open up near UC or in downtown, but I don't even know if that would be important enough for them to do. I can't imagine most of their target market is located in Hamilton, Springboro, or Monroe. The only people I see them getting large numbers from are the people in Mason and West Chester, but they already have a pretty easy 15 minute drive to the Kenwood store.

The targeted tenants will definitely place this development above Bridgewater, Union Centre, etc. 

 

If an Apple store locates there, it could capture some of the Dayton market I guess?  At the very least it would make a Dayton apple store less likely (though I don't know if there is a likelihood of a Dayton store anyway). 

A Trader Joe's may work there.

My only requirement would be a J Crew. Doesn't Cincy only have one real J Crew? Not the J Crew outlet.

Dayton has an Apple store at the Greene... it's called MacTown. Same basic feel as an Apple store. I didn't even know the difference until I Googled to provide a link to show the store existed and saw it was a MacTown instead. So probably an Apple store in Dayton is not likely to happen in the future so long as MacTown exists.

http://www.thegreene.com/tenants/mactown.aspx

(and honestly, I suspect the end result at Liberty will be a MacTown too).

 

I could imagine the target tenants would have to place this center above Bridgewater, because Bridgewater's tenant portfolio already operates along Tylersville and Cox roads. And Union Centre has been going for more destination retailers, like IKEA, Bass Pro, etc. rather than being a strong traditional retail player itself. So I can see that this development will have to solidify the "nice" market (as in, not super-luxury, but luxury on par with Macy's and Dillard's). So basically The Greene - south is what I'm reading.

 

 

 

SAF, I do wish you would answer this question:

SAF, I'm assuming you have some sort of inside connection to Steiner. Is there any chance they are building a pedestrian bridge across Oh 129 to actually make this a walkable community to major employment and educational venues? ( Cincinnati Children's and Lakota East HS respectively).

 

... or at least consider it since I assume you do have a connection with the development larger than just a mere interest on UO. A pedestrian bridge linking the Liberty Center across OH 129 could really make this development a lot more accessible and walkable. Think about all of the Cincinnati Children's workers who may want to pop over the bridge quickly to pick up a few things before they went home or all of the Lakota teens with discretionary income to spend in the late afternoon. That's a decent market and from a design perspective could really set this development apart from other lifestyle centers.

So after all this time no building permit has been issued yet? lol

If there is one tenant I think Liberty Center will have no problem landing, it's an Apple store. Most all cities the size of Cincinnati have multiple Apple stores; Columbus has two, Cleveland has two, Pittsburgh has three, etc. In fact, the Apple store at Kenwood is a ridiculously high volume store, and I've been told by Apple employees that it does borderline flagship business. Although I agree with others in wishing that Apple would open up a store closer to the cities core... Hyde Park Square even, but that may be just wishful thinking. 

New retail on Hyde Park Square generally crashes and burns. That's not a regional retail center, it's just a very nice neighborhood center.

^ Lululemon seems to be doing alright.  I think the success of that store is very important for landing more national tenants in our neighborhood business districts.  As much as we all love our independents, we need some chains in our business districts.  We have nothing like Shadyside in Pittsburgh, and I've never been able to figure out why. 

  • 2 weeks later...

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