Posted June 8, 200817 yr For those of us in Hamilton county, it's that time of the year to pay our (six month)property taxes (June 20) for the great services we some received on the backs of property owners. So I though I would post the (laundry)list of items that my property taxes go to. I would be interested in seeing what services others pay for living in their respective county. People beyond Hamilton Cty may wonder why we talk about NKY so much. Another comparison is the amazingly low property taxes. I believe the rate is something like $1.XX per thousand of home value. So if you own a $200K house in KY, you pay a whopping $200+ dollars in property tax. Someone who owns a home in KY could explain it better. A $200K house in Hamilton county would probably have a nearly $3,500k property tax. School District - biggest chunk. My beloved high school did a nice round around on property tax payers by getting some inside Mills without a vote. Still less than when I lived in the city limits. Township - I believe this includes police and fire. Joint Vocational School - I'm not sure what this provides funding for. People who drop out of high school end up at these schools. Alternative education. Country General Fund - This pays salaries and general expenses. Anything else? I'm not sure. Country Voted Bond Debt - I'm not sure if this is part of the stadium tax, which was mostly a sales tax increase. Health/Hospital Care-Drake - One of many services that voters approve year in year out. I don't get it. Basically, get in a car accident and can't move anything but your eyebrows, taxpayers will pay for your rehab. This tax will expire for good in 2009. Health/Hospital Care-Indigent - When people wine about not doing enough for poor people. I whip out this levy. Mental Health Levy - see above Mental Retardation Levy - This goes to MRDD. I can't complain about this one. My mom subs at some of the schools and gets paid nicely. A lot of one on one needed. Thank you taxpayers. Park District - I use them therefore I have no problem paying for them. Crime Information Center - 911, people who call asking for directions or dinner advice should be shot or at least tased. Children Service - We must take care of your children. Senior Service - We must take care of your seniors. Zoological Park - We must take care of your monkeys. Museum Center - One of the few I voted for, we must take care of this Art Deco gem forever. There are tax breaks! 10% Rollback 2.5% Rollback - One of these is for passing the stadium construction sales tax. Not sure if it's 10% or 2.5%. Homestead - I believe this is the state-wide credit for senior citizens. I don't qualify, but plenty of wealthy seniors do.
June 9, 200817 yr OK, nice list of items, but how about some actual numbers. For those of us not living in Hamilton County (I live in Warren county), what's the actual $amount of each of these categories? Is the zoo tax a couple of dollars a year, or a couple hundred dollars a year? I would post the details of my tax bill for comparison, but since it's paid through excrow, I don't remember getting an actual copy of the bill, so no breakdown to report. But I will say this... My house has an assessed value around $260k, and an annual property tax bill is around $3,400. Interestingly, I bought the house 2 years ago for $265k. Shortly after that the area did a 3-yr re-assessment, and my tax bill dropped $200 to its present level. I'm not sure how many other people saw a drop in their tax bills this past re-assessment time. (no school tax emergency levie expired or anything. They actually lowered the assessed value of the buildings. the land went up slightly, but not nearly as much as the buildings dropped.)
June 9, 200817 yr I looked at some of those numbers when I was thinking about moving back to Cincy. Here in Utah, residential property taxes are less then half as much, but my property tax plus income tax was $130 higher in Utah. Of course, here the schools are funded by the state, EQUALLY though poorly, not by local property taxes. UT Ohio Market Value 194,844 200,000 Tax Value 107,164 70,000 Total Tax 1,415 3,486 Local Schools 462 2,098 State Schools 140 City 307 608 County 146 Health/Hosp 35 400 Parks 49 Child Services 0 100 Zoo 16 Museum 10 Senior Services 0 46 Library 66
June 9, 200817 yr When I left Syracuse, NY to move back to Ohio 5 years ago, the local property tax bill was something like this: mkt value: 113k (that's what I sold for) Assessed value: 100k (they were in the process of switching to mkt value assessment, so the new owners saw their assessment rise to $113k) Local School tax: $1600/yr, after special $300/yr discount from state county/township taxes: $1800/yr. The county got the bigger piece. Townships were also alowed to tax (unlike in Ohio) so I paid a lot for snow removal/road repair, fire protection, and local parks. local income tax: n/a Note - there was a large employer in my county (3 nuclear power plants) that paid a large amount of property tax. As I was leaving, they negotiated a PILOT (payment in leu of taxes) with the county. This ment that the county tax to homeowners was going to increase significantly (probably 30+%) over the next few years. So, after dicounts from the state and before the PILOT program kicked in, I was paying $3400/yr on a $100k house, or 3.4%. (the new owners would pay $3,850 tax). Without a fixed tax rate, the local county was raising its taxes 20+% each year for the previous 2 years (and expected to continue), and the school was raising its taxes some 5-8% each year. We did not get to vote on taxes or tax rates. The local county, towns, and school districts just figured out how much money they needed each year, then assigned each property owner their percent based on assessed value. The NY way of taxing is much more the norm thoughout the US, I've been lead to believe. NY is just a little more agregious than most. That is on top of an 8% state sales tax and a 7% state income tax. (it's a graduated tax like in Ohio, but shoots up to a marginal 7% rate pretty fast.)
June 9, 200817 yr We did not get to vote on taxes or tax rates. The local county, towns, and school districts just figured out how much money they needed each year, then assigned each property owner their percent based on assessed value. The NY way of taxing is much more the norm thoughout the US, I've been lead to believe. NY is just a little more agregious than most. That is on top of an 8% state sales tax and a 7% state income tax. (it's a graduated tax like in Ohio, but shoots up to a marginal 7% rate pretty fast.) I think New England has a similar type deal too. I have family in Conn. and NH. If the local gov thinks they need more money for schools or whatever, up go your taxes. No public vote necessary.
June 9, 200817 yr OK, nice list of items, but how about some actual numbers. For those of us not living in Hamilton County (I live in Warren county), what's the actual $amount of each of these categories? Is the zoo tax a couple of dollars a year, or a couple hundred dollars a year? I'll try to figure out the percentages. But yes, the Zoo and Museum are very small amounts.
June 9, 200817 yr We did not get to vote on taxes or tax rates. The local county, towns, and school districts just figured out how much money they needed each year, then assigned each property owner their percent based on assessed value. The NY way of taxing is much more the norm thoughout the US, I've been lead to believe. NY is just a little more agregious than most. That is on top of an 8% state sales tax and a 7% state income tax. (it's a graduated tax like in Ohio, but shoots up to a marginal 7% rate pretty fast.) I think New England has a similar type deal too. I have family in Conn. and NH. If the local gov thinks they need more money for schools or whatever, up go your taxes. No public vote necessary. You can always vote out the official that raised your taxes or slashed a program you believe in. And since most voters can't balance their own budgets, why the heck should we expect those voters to be able to balance the state's? That's what we have representatives for.
June 9, 200817 yr You can always vote out the official that raised your taxes or slashed a program you believe in. And since most voters can't balance their own budgets, why the heck should we expect those voters to be able to balance the state's? That's what we have representatives for. Doesn't work so easily, as those who own nothing are alway willing to raise the property taxes of those who do.
January 22, 200916 yr I thought a little good news would be nice. 10 riskiest and 10 most stable real estate markets Nearly half of the nation's 50 largest markets have an elevated or high probability of lower home prices in two years, according to the first quarter 2009 Economic and Real Estate Trends (ERET Report) by PMI Mortgage Insurance Co. The index shows that the risk of lower house prices two years from now increased broadly across the nation-rising in 369 of 381 MSAs (Metropolitan Statistical Areas) or 97 percent highlighting the breath of the economic and housing downturns. "The two primary drivers of increased risk scores across a broader segment of MSAs are the continued high level of foreclosures and rising unemployment", said David Berson, PMI's chief economist. "These factors will put additional upward pressure on risk, with increases in affordability and lower mortgage rates providing some offset." Riskiest Markets 1. Riverside-San Bernardino, Calif. 2. Miami-Miami Beach 3. Fort Lauderdale 4. Los Angeles 5. West Palm Beach-Boca Raton 6. Las Vegas-Paradise 7. Tampa-St. Petersburg 8. Orlando-Kissimmee, Fla. 9. Santa Ana-Anaheim-Irvine 10. Jacksonville Most Stable Markets 1. Dallas-Plano 2. Fort Worth 3. Houston-Sugar 4. Pittsburgh, Penn. 5. San Antonio 6. Charlotte, N.C. 7. Columbus, Oh. 8. Cleveland, Oh. 9. Indianapolis 10. Denver Source: PMI Mortgage Insurance Co. http://realtrends.com/go/view_media.php?mp_id=7721&cat_id=1263
January 22, 200916 yr I can believe this. Proof that FL is overrated. I know on my block in LA before christmas there were 3 homes for sale, now according to my neighbor, there are 8. Nice to see the midwest hold strong. I suspect we'll see a trend toward folks moving North. I am surprised to see charlotte on the "stable" market list and that I do not see, metro Washington, Boston and Atlanta on the "riskiest" list.
January 23, 200916 yr Unless energy prices bounce back, I'd bet Texas is in more trouble than people realize.
January 23, 200916 yr I don't want to start anything .... but how can a report like this be made available by a PMI Co., but Cincinnati had fewer delinquent payments compared to Cbus and Cleveland? Can someone explain this contradiction? http://nky.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20090118/NEWS0103/901180400
January 23, 200916 yr You live in LA now? No, but my brother and I bought property there. It was initially going to be a flip, but it turned out so nice, we decided to keep it.
January 23, 200916 yr I was wondering about Phoenix, thinking they should be on there as well. MTS, where in LA did you buy?
January 23, 200916 yr I was wondering about Phoenix, thinking they should be on there as well. MTS, where in LA did you buy? Palms/Rancho Park area.
January 23, 200916 yr How often are you there? I had no idea you even traveled out there that much. 2007 a lot, 2008 not so much. My brother, skank-in-law and parents are there quite often.
January 23, 200916 yr Unless energy prices bounce back, I'd bet Texas is in more trouble than people realize. Houston maybe---but DFW is diversified enough to remain fairly stable.
July 9, 200915 yr Check it out: The three C's posted the highest property value gains in the nation for this quarter. Expects claim "seasonal sales"as the reason...but I'd say we're not the only ones who experience the seasons! haha http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Clear-Capital-1014791.html http://www.propertywire.com/news/north-america/property-prices-us-200907093305.html "Three cities in Ohio posted the largest gains with prices in Cleveland rising 19.6%, up 15.6% in Columbus and Cincinnati prices climbing 12.9%. But some areas continued to record price falls, most notably Las Vegas where prices fell 12.4% and Orlando where they were down 9.3%."
July 9, 200915 yr ^Thanks for posting that! I'm trying to better understand their methodology to see how seriously to take them. The actual report is here: http://www.clearcapital.com/company/newsroom/ClearCapitalHDIMarketReportJuly2009.pdf
July 9, 200915 yr I think how the press handles this in the next couple of days will determine the validity and prominance of the data.
July 9, 200915 yr There was probably such a run on forclosed houses last year, that the average price was unusually low. Now it is returning to normal. Maybe the worst is past us?
July 9, 200915 yr There was probably such a run on forclosed houses last year, that the average price was unusually low. Now it is returning to normal. Maybe the worst is past us? You may be on to something. The methodologlical notes claim that the index is at least partially based on repeat sales (meaning, they average the price changes measured on individual properties from one sale to another), so it should take into account the fact that the mix of housing selling during the quarter changes; but if their repeat sales pairs include sales out of REO (which are often at absurdly low prices) and subsequent short term flips, that could artificially be pushing up their index.
July 10, 200915 yr I'm finding more articles, however they all quote the same data/source: http://www.themovechannel.com/news/49b6fd49-1edb/ http://www.homesoverseas.co.uk/news/First_USA_property_price_rise_for_three_years/11773-1002 Still no major newspapers yet.
July 10, 200915 yr ThankYa Geezus. I need the neighborhoods worth to climb so my crib can appreciate more. Although, with you-know-who moving here, God only knows how that will affect property values. (clutching pearls)
July 11, 200915 yr I think how the press handles this in the next couple of days will determine the validity and prominance of the data. I thought you were going to say: "I think how the press handles this in the next couple days will determine how biased they are against the cities..." Or something like that! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 11, 200915 yr Well, Forbe's has the story ..where you at PD http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/10/clear-capital-housing-index-business-wall-street-home-prices.html Good News From Wall Street's Home Price Gurus Maurna Desmond, 07.10.09, 05:00 PM EDT A new housing market index with a solid pedigree says things are looking up. While most homeowners cringe at the still crumbling Case Shiller Home Price Index, the firm that Wall Street trusts to gauge home prices has launched its own metric. And it's mostly going up. After three years sliding across the board, home prices gained on a quarter-over-quarter basis in three out of four regions during the three months ended June, according to Clear Capital, a real estate valuation firm out of Truckee, Calif., that caters to institutional clients like banks and the government. "This month's market report was both surprising and encouraging," said Kevin Marshall, the firm's president. "There are still a lot of negative economic indicators out there, and housing market is not out of the woods yet, but it is a very healthy thing to see home prices stabilize for a bit." July index, the firm's first monthly reading, showed that home prices in the Midwest and the South rose 5.3% and 2%, respectively, from the quarter before. Ohio's three largest cities lead in quarterly gains with Cleveland rising 19.6%, Columbus, 15.6%, and Cincinnati, 12.9%. The Northeast, which is just beginning to get hit with foreclosures, saw very little price appreciation, just 0.1%. A seasonal uptick, spring is a popular time for home purchases, generous first-time homebuyer tax incentives, as well as ongoing foreclosure moratoriums were all credited with bolstering home prices. Subprime-scourged Las Vegas saw the steepest decline with a 12.4% slide. However, the West showed signs of stabilizing, falling only 0.7%, after losing as much as 10.5% in a single quarter last year. Clear Capital's numbers suggest more of an improvement than the June Case-Shiller index, released last week, which showed a slowing in price declines and not an uptick (See "Prices Stabilize, But Housing Trouble Still Looms"). This is because the indicator cooked up by economists Robert K. Shiller and Karl Case in the '80s and later purchased by ratings agency Standard & Poor's, has a three-month lag and is based on data furnished by county tax offices. "If we tried to speed things up significantly, the data is not going to be as complete, and then we are going to be facing big revisions," said David Blitzer, chairman of the S&P index committee. "I'd like to have to have faster reporting, but it's a tradeoff."
July 24, 200915 yr Cuyahoga County median home price leaps 85 percent over first quarter Posted by Mark Gillispie / Plain Dealer Reporter July 24, 2009 04:00AM The median price for single-family homes in Cuyahoga County skyrocketed 85 percent from the first quarter to the second quarter of this year, a jump that shows not only how far the housing market has fallen but also how much room it has to grow. The median price rose from $48,000 to $89,000 from the first to the second quarter while the number of sales increased 32 percent, according to a Plain Dealer analysis of real estate transfer records from the Cuyahoga County auditor's office. More from cleveland.com: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/07/cuyahoga_countys_median_home_p.html
July 24, 200915 yr "Even Cleveland, the epicenter for the nation's foreclosure crisis" Two words- Las Vegas. Shoddy reporting from the PD once again. The dramatic swings in this measure show nothing but what a poor measure transfer price is for home value.
July 24, 200915 yr "Even Cleveland, the epicenter for the nation's foreclosure crisis" Two words- Las Vegas. Shoddy reporting from the PD once again. The dramatic swings in this measure show nothing but what a poor measure transfer price is for home value. X you beat me too it! And even then, there are still quite a few cities that have larger mortgage issues that Cleveland.
July 24, 200915 yr "Even Cleveland, the epicenter for the nation's foreclosure crisis" Two words- Las Vegas. Shoddy reporting from the PD once again. The dramatic swings in this measure show nothing but what a poor measure transfer price is for home value. X you beat me too it! And even then, there are still quite a few cities that have larger mortgage issues that Cleveland. I small part of me smiles everytime i see complete subdivisions overgrown with weeds and completely empty in places like Phoenix and Las Vegas. I visited a friend who lives in Vegas in a subdivision wayyyyy off at the base of the mountains and nearly half the homes were either empty or up for sale. Also a friend of my dad's tried to get him to move out to Phoenix and work with his construction company making sure the homes were being built on or before schedule. Even though at the time it felt like a sure thing to do my dad said something inside him told him not to leave the security of the job he's had for nearly 30 years, and now 5 years later the construction company closed, the friend is out of work, and my dad is still working.
August 25, 200915 yr House prices rise in June, with Cleveland ranking among the best of 20 markets by Michelle Jarboe/Plain Dealer Reporter Tuesday August 25, 2009, 9:30 AM House prices kept inching up from May to June, with Cleveland seeing the greatest improvement of 20 cities tracked in a much-watched report released Tuesday. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/08/house_prices_rise_in_june_with.html
September 29, 200915 yr House price decline slows nationwide; Cleveland holds up best of 20 markets By Michelle Jarboe, The Plain Dealer September 29, 2009, 9:59AM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Declines in house prices kept slowing down in July, according to data released this morning by the much-watched Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller Home Price Indices. And though house prices here have fallen farther during the past few years than those in many other cities, Cleveland has held up the best of all 20 metropolitan areas tracked since July 2008. Cleveland's index dropped only 1.3 percent during the 12 months that ended in July, while the 20-city index fell 13.3 percent. Much of that national drop was driven by declines in once-bustling markets including Las Vegas and Phoenix. MORE FROM THE PLAIN DEALER: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2009/09/house_price_declines_slow_clev.html
September 29, 200915 yr ^ just curious......... Did Cleveland experience the boom in house building over the past 9 or so years that Columbus and Cincinnati experienced? I've heard it argued that while the Midwest did not exactly have a housing (price) bubble, many areas in the Midwest experienced a housing building bubble none-the-less. Therefore, cities like Cincy and C'bus may be prone to price falls due to empty houses unless the population (ie jobs) keeps growing. I don't know the answer to this question, so I'm curious on your thoughts.
September 30, 200915 yr Although not a "housing boom", the city of Cleveland has actually experienced a significant increase in new home construction during the last decade. Sprinkled through out the city are thousands of new homes. I took a drive into neighborhoods I would not normally visit last week and I was shocked to see all of the new homes built in the last 10 years. In the Central area there are over 750 new homes. Some are government subsidized housing but most of it is not. In many areas surprisingly/unfortunately it looks quite suburban. This same thing can be seen in Hough, Fairfax, University Circle, Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Rd, and of course Downtown. In all of these areas new Townhouses, single-family homes, and apartments can be found. Much of this gets overlooked because this construction was unique and did not follow the typical suburban track-home development model. For example, downtown experienced an increase in population from near zero to near 12,000 people. This new housing is in the form of renovated buildings such as the Union Terminal building and new construction such as Pinnacle and Stonebridge. Tremont and Ohio City are covered with newly renovated homes, as well as, new homes, townhouses, and apartment/condo buildings. I am not sure how to classify newly renovated buildings, such as the Bridgeview or Statler Building, but it seems to me that these projects should be counted somehow as part of a housing boom.
September 30, 200915 yr ^the city: no the suburbs: no the exurbs: yes I disagree. There were tons of homes planned and built, in the city. IMO Cleveland's biggest gain was in renovated homes and conversions. The suburbs tried to get into it but not like cleveland. the exurbs appear to have lots of new constructions because there was nothing there to begin with.
September 30, 200915 yr Just my input from what I am seeing on the ground in the Lakewood, West Park area. There are not nearly as many houses for sale as a year ago, probably a lot of people sitting on the sidelines until this shakes out. In fact I would say it could be below the normal level of houses for sale. The properties that are coming up are moving fast. My neighbors sold their house in less than 3 weeks, My carpool partner has an acquaintance that sold his in less than 5 days. I am assuming that a fast sale means a sale price pretty close to asking price. I know the expiring 8 grand tax credit is a big reason these properties are moving (at a good price too) but I am wondering if the shortness of supply is affecting it too. We'll have to see what happens after the tax credit expires.
September 30, 200915 yr Interesting read on the renovation/building in Cleveland. I live in an exurb north of Cincinnati, so I can't respond with details of Cincinnati City proper, other than to say there has been a lot of renovation of older buildings near downtown into condos. The complaint is that they are priced too high for young adults. Anyway, nice to hear that Cleveland proper has a lot of new/renovated houses in the city itself. I get up there once or twice a year and really like what the city has to offer. (in general, I was refering to an increase in the quantity of housing, so new builds and commercial-to-residential conversions fit that theme, whereas renovation of existing housing, while it may make a place habitable, would not technically increase the amount of available housing. We can argue that point, but I was just looking for a feeling of how active the 'new housing' construction sector of Cleveland has been over the past decade)
May 11, 201015 yr Cleveland, Akron house prices bounce back hugely from early 2009 By Michelle Jarboe, The Plain Dealer May 11, 2010, 11:43AM In fact, Akron and Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, respectively, saw the second- and third-largest price jumps among 152 metropolitan areas followed by the National Association of Realtors, which released its first-quarter price report this morning. Still, houses in the Cleveland and Akron areas are selling for some of the lowest prices in the country. The median house price in the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor area was $106,400 during the first quarter, up 53.8 percent from $69,200 a year before. In the Akron metropolitan area, the median house price jumped 90.2 percent, from $50,100 in the first quarter of 2009 to $95,300 early this year. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/05/cleveland_akron_house_prices_b.html Cincinnati metro home prices up 14.5% in 1Q “The tax credit has been very effective in drawing down excess inventory, with about 1 million additional sales resulting directly from the stimulus,” Yun said in the release. Moat major Ohio metro areas saw prices rise more than 10 percent year over year, with those hardest hit by the housing slump showing the most recovery. Akron’s median price jumped 90 percent; Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor saw its median price rise 54 percent; Dayton was up 23 percent; and Toledo, 13 percent. Columbus, whose housing market suffered the least in Ohio, saw its median price jump about 6 percent over the year. http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2010/05/10/daily22.html
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