April 30, 200916 yr Not really sure where to post this but this seemed like the best place for it. I was having lunch with my mom on Monday after a class at CSU at paninis when this man sat at the table behind us. He started talking to us and we got a lot of information out of him. He was maybe in his mid 30s and a disabled war vet (something with his back) and works at the native american museum in new york. He lives in manhattan but absolutely loves everything about cleveland. He takes the Amtrak into cleveland once a month or so, and while baseball isnt really my cup o tea, he is a die hard indians fan. He plans his trips so that he can catch an indians home when he is in town. After the game he'll take the amtrak back home to new york that night. He also said it has a big city feel to it yet he is able to walk all of downtown very easily in a timely manner with his bad back. Basically talked to the guy for a good 20 - 25 minutes and had nothing but great things to say about the city. The only somewhat negative thing he said was about the loss of the old flats, but seemed pretty excited when i told him what was planned for that area.
April 30, 200916 yr ^Good response. I'm getting sick and tired of outsiders dumping on the city for no apparent reason. Not to dwell on that article, but I honestly cannot get over the fact that the guy would write an article like that without ever visiting here!!!! Hell, I was about to write him a somewhat nasty email, but I stopped myself because I did not even read the damn thing. Thus, how could I write a scathing response without reading? Similarly, how could one write a scathing review about a movie without seeing it? Are city's only judged by statistics? What value does one put on character, culture, tradition? There are no tall buildings in Rome. Is it somewhat less of a city because there aren't tall buildings? I mean, WTF. Anyways, that is as much time as I will waste on that article. *Went out to eat with a couple from VA. They went on and on about how many cool things Cle has to offer and how, to them, it's one of those places that you do not really appreciate until you spend time here. I took this as a good thing. Essentially, I interpreted it as they appreciate the "character/culture" type places (as in the different neighborhoods) more than "Rock Hall" type places.
April 30, 200916 yr Not really sure where to post this but this seemed like the best place for it. I was having lunch with my mom on Monday after a class at CSU at paninis when this man sat at the table behind us. He started talking to us and we got a lot of information out of him. He was maybe in his mid 30s and a disabled war vet (something with his back) and works at the native american museum in new york. He lives in manhattan but absolutely loves everything about cleveland. He takes the Amtrak into cleveland once a month or so, and while baseball isnt really my cup o tea, he is a die hard indians fan. He plans his trips so that he can catch an indians home when he is in town. After the game he'll take the amtrak back home to new york that night. He also said it has a big city feel to it yet he is able to walk all of downtown very easily in a timely manner with his bad back. Basically talked to the guy for a good 20 - 25 minutes and had nothing but great things to say about the city. The only somewhat negative thing he said was about the loss of the old flats, but seemed pretty excited when i told him what was planned for that area. Awesome!
April 30, 200916 yr Not really sure where to post this but this seemed like the best place for it. I was having lunch with my mom on Monday after a class at CSU at paninis when this man sat at the table behind us. He started talking to us and we got a lot of information out of him. He was maybe in his mid 30s and a disabled war vet (something with his back) and works at the native american museum in new york. He lives in manhattan but absolutely loves everything about cleveland. He takes the Amtrak into cleveland once a month or so, and while baseball isnt really my cup o tea, he is a die hard indians fan. He plans his trips so that he can catch an indians home when he is in town. After the game he'll take the amtrak back home to new york that night. He also said it has a big city feel to it yet he is able to walk all of downtown very easily in a timely manner with his bad back. Basically talked to the guy for a good 20 - 25 minutes and had nothing but great things to say about the city. The only somewhat negative thing he said was about the loss of the old flats, but seemed pretty excited when i told him what was planned for that area. Wow, very cool. Thanks for sharing. So there's where the UO business card would come into play!
April 30, 200916 yr Tall buildings certainly aren't a sign for successful cities, but sh!t, we've got the tallest buildings between NYC/Philly and Chicago. Never really understood this supposed knock.
April 30, 200916 yr I think pali's point was that the tall buildings statistical argument is used against Rome the same way that the number of jobs lost statistical argument is used against Cleveland, when in both cases there's much more than that that makes a city great.
April 30, 200916 yr I actually thought he had some valid points, even though he's an outsider and has never been to Cleveland. If an outsider who'd never been to Cleveland had only positive things to say about the city, would we be making the same arguments? Or is it because we're getting defensive because we don't like hearing the truth?
April 30, 200916 yr I actually thought he had some valid points, even though he's an outsider and has never been to Cleveland. If an outsider who'd never been to Cleveland had only positive things to say about the city, would we be making the same arguments? Or is it because we're getting defensive because we don't like hearing the truth? How about visiting or that very fact, living in the city, then making writing an informed balanced article. I don't think anyone here would deny there are issues or have a problem with "the truth" but how much truth is in an article written on perception.
April 30, 200916 yr Yeah. I know that's true. But why does this perception exist, then? Is it really only something perpetuated by the media? Or is something worth looking into further? I guess that's all I'm wondering. I still thought his article was thoughful and brought up some good points, even though his points were based on perceptions he has. And I read the whole thing and didn't get defensive about it.
April 30, 200916 yr Yeah. I know that's true. But why does this perception exist, then? Is it really only something perpetuated by the media? Or is something worth looking into further? I guess that's all I'm wondering. I still thought his article was thoughful and brought up some good points, even though his points were based on perceptions he has. And I read the whole thing and didn't get defensive about it. UMMM YES...SEE THE PLAIN DEALER!
April 30, 200916 yr I don't have time to read that whole blog right now. But from what I did read, I don't think it's all that far off. I didn't notice much commentary in it regarding Cleveland's physical attributes, so I don't care if the author has stopped by to see them. The blog was trying to nail down a difficult problem, one we can't nail down ourselves, and one we exhibit a bit of denial about. Some of its insights were spot on, like the failure of regionalism here and especially the misguided attempts at development.
April 30, 200916 yr I don't have time to read that whole blog right now. But from what I did read, I don't think it's all that far off. I didn't notice much commentary in it regarding Cleveland's physical attributes, so I don't care if the author has stopped by to see them. The blog was trying to nail down a difficult problem, one we can't nail down ourselves, and one we exhibit a bit of denial about. Some of its insights were spot on, like the failure of regionalism here and especially the misguided attempts at development. Exactly.
April 30, 200916 yr I am the first person to admit there are MAJOR problems here. My irritation with the article was this: the dude has never been here. How arrogant and full of themselves must someone be to write an article on a place without visiting? Would anyone on here do that? 3 tall bldgs: who cares? Many European cities have few tall buildings, yet they are phenomenal and would make Indianapolis seem like Athens, OH (no offense to OU people).
April 30, 200916 yr ^I laughed when he used as evidence of Cleveland's lameness the fact that he gets almost no internet traffic from the City. Get over yourself, dude. They guy makes a few easy and obvious points, but I thought the entry was incredibly superficial and simplistic. Which might explain why I had never heard of him before this episode.
April 30, 200916 yr Does everyone realize that blogger is on this forum as arenn? His example of this area's lack of regionalism is the I-90/Lear Road interchange issue in Avon, and he says "a great city needs great suburbs" - well, here - those suburbs are Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, aka densely built inner-ring 'burbs the likes of which aren't in abundance in Indiana. Yes, this region needs to promote regional cooperation but not at the expense of the city and inner suburbs. Enhancing highway access for an ex-urb like Avon constitutes sound *urban* planning? Maybe to someone like Robert Moses or Al Porter, but in 2009 that simply demonstrates lack of fundamental understanding of how regionalism works to benefit an entire region in the long-term. Instead, he points to Avon and its growth on paper as a reason that "gee, Avon's doing something right, so why can't Cleveland just say 'sure, spend our money on an ex-urban interchange". Definitely a case of consider the source, folks - I could armchair and blog all day based on what I find on the interweb without ever setting foot near any of these places but that would give me about much as credibility, now wouldn't it? What next, should we be paying serious attention to the weekly Forbes poll? clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
May 1, 200916 yr Cat's out of the bag... I wonder if he reads the *I Love Cleveland* thread? The blog made some good points, and some other points. I'm not happy about Avon or anything that goes on there. The suburbs have extorted money from Cleveland in boatloads. How else did they get there? And no Cleveland is not disconnected from the rest of Ohio, it's just disconnected from the part by Indiana. On purpose. Could you imagine if I had one of those blog things? Great googly moogly. That's why I don't. I make enough enemies as it is, in real life.
May 1, 200916 yr Does everyone realize that blogger is on this forum as arenn? His example of this area's lack of regionalism is the I-90/Lear Road interchange issue in Avon, and he says "a great city needs great suburbs" - well, here - those suburbs are Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, aka densely built inner-ring 'burbs the likes of which aren't in abundance in Indiana. Yes, this region needs to promote regional cooperation but not at the expense of the city and inner suburbs. Enhancing highway access for an ex-urb like Avon constitutes sound *urban* planning? Maybe to someone like Robert Moses or Al Porter, but in 2009 that simply demonstrates lack of fundamental understanding of how regionalism works to benefit an entire region in the long-term. Instead, he points to Avon and its growth on paper as a reason that "gee, Avon's doing something right, so why can't Cleveland just say 'sure, spend our money on an ex-urban interchange". Definitely a case of consider the source, folks - I could armchair and blog all day based on what I find on the interweb without ever setting foot near any of these places but that would give me about much as credibility, now wouldn't it? What next, should we be paying serious attention to the weekly Forbes poll? I have one to say! Ms. Thing Honey......... Yoooooooooooouuuuuuuuuu betta work bitch! You get "10's" across the board for that reading!
May 1, 200916 yr Cat's out of the bag... I wonder if he reads the *I Love Cleveland* thread? The blog made some good points, and some other points. I'm not happy about Avon or anything that goes on there. The suburbs have extorted money from Cleveland in boatloads. How else did they get there? And no Cleveland is not disconnected from the rest of Ohio, it's just disconnected from the part by Indiana. On purpose. Could you imagine if I had one of those blog things? Great googly moogly. That's why I don't. I make enough enemies as it is, in real life. You? Enemies? Child, hush! You talkin' crazy!
May 1, 200916 yr Hi. By the way, feel free to strongly disagree with the blog post. In fact, feel free to add your comments. There are 90 comments on it - a record for me, most of them thoughtful and constructive - I welcome disagreement. If you read through my blog, you'll see that I am definitely a tough grader. I'm extremely tough on Indianapolis and have dinged Chicago even on several occasions. The Midwest has manifestly not made the grade, and sugar coating it isn't going to change things. As for the fact that I admit I haven't visited Cleveland, I think that's an understandable reason to raise an eyebrow - which is why I mentioned it incidentally. I would, however, ask that you judge the post based on what it says and whether it is right or wrong rather than who wrote it. Morrison lives there and I quoted him. Longworth is a respected journalist who had even stronger words than me. Jim Russel is a blogger who has tirelessly championed the Cleveburgh corridor and he is exasperated. Since this is the I Love Cleveland thread, I will say that I love the Cleveland Orchestra. Those old George Szell recordings are some of the greatest price/value anywhere. The orchestra's reputation is still high, and I blogged about that Grammophone survey that rated them like the top US orchestra and one of the very top in the world. If I am in doubt about which recording of something to buy, I always default to the Cleveland Orchestra recording.
May 1, 200916 yr Hi. By the way, feel free to strongly disagree with the blog post. In fact, feel free to add your comments. There are 90 comments on it - a record for me, most of them thoughtful and constructive - I welcome disagreement. If you read through my blog, you'll see that I am definitely a tough grader. I'm extremely tough on Indianapolis and have dinged Chicago even on several occasions. The Midwest has manifestly not made the grade, and sugar coating it isn't going to change things. As for the fact that I admit I haven't visited Cleveland, I think that's an understandable reason to raise an eyebrow - which is why I mentioned it incidentally. I would, however, ask that you judge the post based on what it says and whether it is right or wrong rather than who wrote it. Morrison lives there and I quoted him. Longworth is a respected journalist who had even stronger words than me. Jim Russel is a blogger who has tirelessly championed the Cleveburgh corridor and he is exasperated. Since this is the I Love Cleveland thread, I will say that I love the Cleveland Orchestra. Those old George Szell recordings are some of the greatest price/value anywhere. The orchestra's reputation is still high, and I blogged about that Grammophone survey that rated them like the top US orchestra and one of the very top in the world. If I am in doubt about which recording of something to buy, I always default to the Cleveland Orchestra recording. While I don't agree with everything you said, I do agree with many points .. I don't remember which ones now. I'd have to read the blog again to list them. But thank you for saying the things that many people don't like to hear.
May 1, 200916 yr arenn, I thought you made a number of good points. You noted our over-reliance on the same new economy ideas that everyone and their brother is trying right now. That sometimes doesn't go over well, but it's true. It's not like health care is some kind of revelation, and an economy based around it doesn't sound like any golden ticket. I've been trying to get some hard numbers on incentives offered to get companies here, particularly in the urban retail sector. That would be a very interesting comparison. Though I assume you're talking about landing HQs and major plants... I'd like to see how those numbers play out too, and how the pitch is made outside of those numbers. I think I understand the need for a new "aspirational value proposition" but I can't be certain because I've never heard that expression before. I'm not sure what to do with your take on relations between the city and burbs. I hardly see Cleveland as mugging Avon for money. State/local policies have resulted in significant wealth transfer out of the city and toward Avon, so many here viewed the revenue sharing compromise as a welcome break in that action. If developers support additional sprawl, by building sprawl infrastructure, are they really helping anything? It's not like the exurbs don't already have retail and medical. Sprawl has to turn around sometime, and not every exurb should have a full complement of stores and offices. That's how we got in this mess, largely.
May 1, 200916 yr Hello Arenn! I feel so busted. But happy you are a participant. I'm sure some folks don't like to see Cleveland criticized by anyone, but that's not my beef with your post. Nor do I really think it matters that you've never been to Cleveland (I've never been to exurban Indy, and I'm pretty sure I'd rather eat glass than live there). What I did choke on was your superficial and anecdotal analysis of how the city has ended up where it is. I suppose I should have expected as much when you infer in paragraph 1 that you like coming up with a "grand unified theory" of towns. Unless you're comparing pre and post-Katrina New Orleans, I'm sure you'd agree that that large metro areas don't really lend themselves to simple, pat explanations and narratives. What we observe in aggregate is the net effect of millions of individual decisions, some by locals, others by outsiders. Just as in every other Rust Belt metro, thousands of residents move to the Cleveland area every year, and more thousands move out. Anyhoo, I'm, extremely skeptical that what really separates Cleveland from other Rust Belt metro areas (without conceding that the separation is nearly as wide as you make it out to be) are today's economic development policies. I know it's human to flatter ourselves into thinking what we are doing now matters so much, but the groundwork for Cleveland's slump was likely laid a long time ago. Cleveland's comparatively crumby housing stock, urban renewal, poor race relations and its industrial economy surely played big roles in producing the City's problems today, and NONE of them are the result of poor marketing or lack of regionalism or any other easily changeable policies today. Yes other regions experienced all of these to some degree, but neither of us, I presume, is really equipped to say if the degree was the same. So we have two competing guesses as to structural reasons Cleveland lags: Cleveland's regional economy is hurting because its early 20th century growth was more dependent on hard hit manufacturing industries (e.g., auto making) than non-Michigan peer cities and Cleveland was more impacted by the forces listed above (my guess); or Cleveland is hurting because people ask each other where they went to high school or because Clevelanders are en masse culturally different than Pittsburghers and Buffalonians (yours). I most definitely share your interest in Rust Belt regions and am happy your Cleveland post flagged the existence of your blog - I look forward to reading it from time to time.
May 1, 200916 yr Again, I don't mind people telling me they think I'm full if it. I'm used to that :) This post seems to have struck some incredible nerve because again it generated huge comment traffic, and very thoughtful traffic. Somebody just emailed me something very detailed and even longer than the original blog post. I'll probably ask for permission to add it as a comment. A couple things jump out at me: - It almost seems like, except for the very largest "global cities" in America, there is an inverse relationship between the presence of a rich urban history and major legacy assets, and present day success. Why is that? - There's something to the state capital thing. If you look at any city of any size in the Midwest with above national average growth, all but one of them are a state capital with over 500,000 people. (I'll admit I haven't done the full study. Ann Arbor might be exception, but the one I was thinking of is Kansas City - which also has some legacy of urbanism). - The thing that really jumped out at me from the comments and was most troubling was this notion that it was difficult for newcomers to meet people and fit into social networks in Cleveland. That is completely the opposite of my experiences in Chicago and Indianapolis, two cities where it is exceptionally easy to meet people and make connections. I've posited before that being a state capital tends to make a place more open, since there are always outsiders coming there for government related purposes (being in the legislature, meetings and events, lobbying, visiting, etc). Strap, I don't want to give the impression that I think I have Cleveland figured out. Hence my making a question mark out of the title. As Alon Levy noted in the comments, any problem you can attribute to Cleveland is a problem other regional cities have. I always thought Cleveland was industrial, but always thought of it as more of a headquarters type town as opposed to an Indiana branch plant town. Maybe de-industrialization more of a factor here than I credit.
May 1, 200916 yr ^ arenn, I'm also for constructive criticism and I'm aware that looking at a cities' flaws will only make the city better, but honestly ... I would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if you weren't under the trance that Indianapolis is some utopia.
May 2, 200916 yr Indianapolis is far from utopia. In fact, there's more than a remote chance the city-county will implode in coming years. I think Columbus is in a better position than Indy, frankly. Indy's trend lines are heading the wrong direction. I'm as much on the outside looking in there and hoping for better as any of you are in your city. What do you think the odds are of the Cavs winning it all this year? A major sports title could be a big morale boost for the city. As with the artists article in the NYT, some positive news would be welcome. How many heavy industry type installations are still present in Cleveland? I'm talking steel mills, refineries, chemical plants, etc. I was thinking about this the other day wrt Northwest Indiana. The area has challenges to be sure, not least of which is that it isn't part of a core city. But we simply aren't building new heavy industrial zones in America today. I've got to believe there could be some attraction to reusing the existing sites. BP is spending over $3 billion to modernize their Whiting refinery, for example. We could certainly use more refining capacity in the United States. Could a modern startup type heavy industry concern unburdened by legacy business practices make a go of it?
May 2, 200916 yr I don't think he said that Indianapolis is an utopia, I mean. Oh, yeah ... I was referring to previous discussions with arenn. Indianapolis is far from utopia. In fact, there's more than a remote chance the city-county will implode in coming years. I think Columbus is in a better position than Indy, frankly. Indy's trend lines are heading the wrong direction. Glad to hear about the honesty.
May 2, 200916 yr Hi Arenn, thanks for the blog post. While obviously there are a lot of people here (myself included) who took issue with the overall assessment, it seems to at least generated a thoughtful discussion of Cleveland ... and perhaps equally fascinating questions about regionalism, local economic mix, value propositions, etc. Everyone on here should at least skim through it. "Alice"'s comments were particularly sad for me ... her experience of feeling isolated sucks, and is totally not what I've experienced as a transplant. For me, Cleveland has been one of the friendlier places I've ever been, so it's interesting to ponder why we had such different initiations. As I mentioned in my post ("Seth") on the blog, though, I would definitely welcome you visiting Cleveland ... not necessarily to change your mind about anything but just to provide some context for your analysis (as MayDay mentioned, seeing the context of the development in exurban Avon, for instance, helps to explain why the Cleveland-based members of our metropolitan planning agency might favor revenue sharing). There are a lot of great people on this forum who I'm sure would be happy to show you around and could set you up with meetings with people who could provide you with additional information about how we're trying to diversify our economic base, repair our urban fabric, etc. If you haven't yet, I would also get involved with the Great Lakes Urban Exchange. It has been amazing to get together with other young urbans in the Rust Belt and to see that the challenges in our cities are actually much more similar than some suggest. This has rung even truer with me living in the Ruhrgebiet region of Germany. I saw a recent Powerpoint presentation there that was spoke to some truly crazy similarities between Cleveland, our other Rust Belt cities and cities there ... rapidly expanding industrial region that subsequently took a nose-dive in the 70s and 80s, negative national image, rapidly declining population, rapid suburbanization (despite population losses), regional in-fighting, trying (actually with a lot of success) to find a new value proposition and a new global image. Even the statistics and the maps looked like Powerpoints I had seen at home. So I don't know what specifically is "wrong" with Cleveland, but I can say that I wholeheartedly believe that they are not at all dissimilar from other aging post-industrial cities worldwide. Regardless, I really hope you will consider coming up here for a visit ... it's not a bad drive, you'll have fun, and now that you have the city's attention, I think we can shatter the 90-comment record in your next Cleveland post :)
May 4, 200916 yr WHICH CITIES ARE AFC-WORTHY? YOU TELL US! We're adding 5 new cities to our annual AFC survey, and you decide which ones make the cut. Vote, and then vote again—the polls close May 15! It's ridiculous as you can vote numerous times. http://www.travelandleisure.com/afc/2009/newcitiesvote.cfm
May 4, 200916 yr Hi Arenn, thanks for the blog post. While obviously there are a lot of people here (myself included) who took issue with the overall assessment, it seems to at least generated a thoughtful discussion of Cleveland ... and perhaps equally fascinating questions about regionalism, local economic mix, value propositions, etc. Everyone on here should at least skim through it. "Alice"'s comments were particularly sad for me ... her experience of feeling isolated sucks, and is totally not what I've experienced as a transplant. For me, Cleveland has been one of the friendlier places I've ever been, so it's interesting to ponder why we had such different initiations. As I mentioned in my post ("Seth") on the blog, though, I would definitely welcome you visiting Cleveland ... not necessarily to change your mind about anything but just to provide some context for your analysis (as MayDay mentioned, seeing the context of the development in exurban Avon, for instance, helps to explain why the Cleveland-based members of our metropolitan planning agency might favor revenue sharing). There are a lot of great people on this forum who I'm sure would be happy to show you around and could set you up with meetings with people who could provide you with additional information about how we're trying to diversify our economic base, repair our urban fabric, etc. If you haven't yet, I would also get involved with the Great Lakes Urban Exchange. It has been amazing to get together with other young urbans in the Rust Belt and to see that the challenges in our cities are actually much more similar than some suggest. This has rung even truer with me living in the Ruhrgebiet region of Germany. I saw a recent Powerpoint presentation there that was spoke to some truly crazy similarities between Cleveland, our other Rust Belt cities and cities there ... rapidly expanding industrial region that subsequently took a nose-dive in the 70s and 80s, negative national image, rapidly declining population, rapid suburbanization (despite population losses), regional in-fighting, trying (actually with a lot of success) to find a new value proposition and a new global image. Even the statistics and the maps looked like Powerpoints I had seen at home. So I don't know what specifically is "wrong" with Cleveland, but I can say that I wholeheartedly believe that they are not at all dissimilar from other aging post-industrial cities worldwide. Regardless, I really hope you will consider coming up here for a visit ... it's not a bad drive, you'll have fun, and now that you have the city's attention, I think we can shatter the 90-comment record in your next Cleveland post :) There is a book called "The Regionmaker" by MVRDV that tells the story of the Ruhr Region, with stories from many other experts on the urban condition. I highly recommend it for those interested in seeing what has been done in similiar economic conditions as 8Shades described.
May 4, 200916 yr WHICH CITIES ARE AFC-WORTHY? YOU TELL US! We're adding 5 new cities to our annual AFC survey, and you decide which ones make the cut. Vote, and then vote again—the polls close May 15! It's ridiculous as you can vote numerous times. http://www.travelandleisure.com/afc/2009/newcitiesvote.cfm Ridiculous that it actually invites you to just vote over and over and over again...
May 4, 200916 yr WHICH CITIES ARE AFC-WORTHY? YOU TELL US! We're adding 5 new cities to our annual AFC survey, and you decide which ones make the cut. Vote, and then vote again%u2014the polls close May 15! It's ridiculous as you can vote numerous times. http://www.travelandleisure.com/afc/2009/newcitiesvote.cfm Ridiculous that it actually invites you to just vote over and over and over again... I'm not happy about that, and shared my feelings :whip: :whip: . However, this isn't a scientific but a straight up popular vote thread.
May 4, 200916 yr WHICH CITIES ARE AFC-WORTHY? YOU TELL US! We're adding 5 new cities to our annual AFC survey, and you decide which ones make the cut. Vote, and then vote again%u2014the polls close May 15! It's ridiculous as you can vote numerous times. http://www.travelandleisure.com/afc/2009/newcitiesvote.cfm Ridiculous that it actually invites you to just vote over and over and over again... I'm not happy about that, and shared my feelings :whip: :whip: . However, this isn't a scientific but a straight up popular vote thread. BUT..... Urban Ohio is a pretty large task force! If we all vote several times, that'll give us a good advantage :-D
May 4, 200916 yr WHICH CITIES ARE AFC-WORTHY? YOU TELL US! We're adding 5 new cities to our annual AFC survey, and you decide which ones make the cut. Vote, and then vote again%u2014the polls close May 15! It's ridiculous as you can vote numerous times. http://www.travelandleisure.com/afc/2009/newcitiesvote.cfm Ridiculous that it actually invites you to just vote over and over and over again... I'm not happy about that, and shared my feelings :whip: :whip: . However, this isn't a scientific but a straight up popular vote thread. BUT..... Urban Ohio is a pretty large task force! If we all vote several times, that'll give us a good advantage ;D Exactly. Those folks down the street don't know what they have unleashed!!
May 5, 200916 yr I gotta say that after some of the good news that came out of this town yesterday, I feel better about the overall energy of this town and the direction that we are headed in. The medical mart deal between the city and county (which will be located in the best location for the project, THE MALL!!), is a project which builds on our region's strength as a health care mecca. The spin-off businesses (and future employment) which will be drawn to the city because of the medical mart will far outweigh the cost of actually building the mart and the convention center. Through all the hard feelings caused by a certain major news publication about this project, this is something that we can look forward to as a project which helps change the perception of this city. There is no silver bullet which will change the direction of our region, however continuing to build on our existing strengths is the best way towards future growth. All in all, I LOVE CLEVELAND!
May 6, 200916 yr Apparently this list will also be discussed on CNN tonight at 9:30 Top 10 cities for new grads While there’s relief that classes are over, exams have been taken and term papers turned in, what lies ahead for the Class of 2009 is an extremely challenging and competitive job market. For new grads who plan to expand their job searches beyond their college or hometowns, Apartments.com and CBcampus.com just released the “Top 10 Best Cities for Recent College Graduates.” The list is based on the ranking of the top U.S. cities with the highest concentration of young adults (age 20 - 24) from the U.S. Census Bureau (2006), inventory of jobs requiring less than one year of experience from CBcampus.com (2009) and the average cost of rent for a one bedroom apartment from Apartments.com (2009). 5. Cleveland Average rent: $686 Popular entry-level categories: sales, marketing, customer service http://www.careerbuildercollege.com/ViewBlog.aspx?blogLink=http%3a%2f%2fcbcampus.wordpress.com%2f2009%2f05%2f06%2ftop-10-cities-for-new-grads%2ffeed%2fatom%2f
May 6, 200916 yr So, what they're telling me is sales and customer service are popular entry level jobs in every single city? That's amazing. Seriously, why did they include that in the list if it's true across the board? I guess I'm just being picky.
May 6, 200916 yr Strange that Cleveland of all cities didn't include health care as part of popular entry level positions. Just another pointless list I suppose.
May 6, 200916 yr Let's make a deal, the next time there is a stupid list, or anything from Forbes magazine, lets start a new thread in the Urbanbar called "Stupid city ranking list of the day"
May 6, 200916 yr Let's make a deal, the next time there is a stupid list, or anything from Forbes magazine, lets start a new thread in the Urbanbar called "Stupid city ranking list of the day" Lets not, let a) ignore it or b) contact forbes and call them out on the article, that will have more impact? Don't you think?
May 6, 200916 yr I personally ignore all of those stupid lists, but you know that somebody will forget the guidelines in order to post the latest missive from Forbes*, thereby annoying everybody. Contacting Forbes will give them the satisfaction of knowing that somebody is reading their rubbish. But, I do sympathize with both of these notions. I like the "Stupid City Ranking" thread idea. *My prediction: Worst Cities for Hemorrhoid Sufferers.
May 6, 200916 yr Sorry, WR, this isn't about you. The problem is that there are a metric crapload of awful lists promulgated by websites and periodicals who have an interest in attracting readers/viewers. One of the best (and cheapest) ways of doing this is by developing rankings of cities. Doesn't take much time, since all that is required is the development of a methodology that may appear reasonable and the work of some lackey. No interviewing required or actual followup. Sometimes, one will come across a good, well-researched list that actually has a basis in reality. But usually, the list exists just to benefit its creator. CareerBuilder wants to get folks to look at their site, obvs.
May 6, 200916 yr Another example of how other see out city. Even this guy from Atlanta thinks our downtown is "thriving". Compared to Atlanta's I guess he would think that. This is from the blog posted in the Cavs forum: http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/05/06/live-from-cleveland-chatting-about-woody-and-his-hawks/#comment-9783 Mark Bradley May 6th, 2009 1:24 pm OK, here it is: Joe has really, really been bad in the playoffs, except for Game 7 against the Heat. No, Dr. Dialtone, Cleveland isn’t so bad. It’s a lovely city with charming citizens and a thriving downtown.
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