I'm wondering if there's some nefarious reason why we haven't heard much about this project recently. Now that 3CDC has acquired a significant chunk of land at Liberty and Elm, and will probably build a parking garage there, maybe they want to preserve the current width of Liberty Street to more easily funnel cars to that garage.

 

Few things-

 

-I was the one speculating about the garage. I haven't heard anything about that being a real plan.

-Even if it was, I doubt 3cdc would pass up the extra land that could be added to their projects. Plus I think they are pretty good designing things from an urbanism standpoint- I think they know a narrowed Liberty would be better for the nieghborhood

-city DOTE is currently in process of converting Green St. to two way and changing direction of Pleasant Street north of Liberty (they need to collect a certain #of responses from residents)

-this is with the goal of creating a pedestrian island for Pleasant Street which would only be installed with the rest of the Liberty Street Safety improvement (DOTE is conservative and doesn't use the term road diet)

-I think it is strictly a matter of finding money to implement at this point. (And overcoming the "spending more money on OTR" political BS)

 

It's a given that any new development on that site will include a parking garage in some form. Although your idea for an underground garage would be the best use of the space, I think it's more likely that they will build something like One Mercer with retail and residential facing Elm and Liberty with a garage hidden behind. The question is, how much do they prioritize maximizing their development vs. prioritizing access to their parking garage. In recent years, 3CDC has become the city's de facto official parking garage operator. In the past, the city would run municipal garages, but now it's all getting outsourced to 3CDC, even when they have nothing to do with the rest of the development. For example, 3CDC is running the Eighth & Sycamore garage even though they're not the developer of the apartments above.

I'm not sure why the diminished width of the lanes would play a role in a potential race and liberty parking garage situation...I mean aren't a lot of the parking garages in the CBD, along with the Garage on Vine St accessed on 4 lane streets? Also, as ucgrady mentioned, more land acquirement would result in more parking garage spaces for 3cdc.

 

 

^ODOT has stupid rules regarding new parking garages.  Vine St. was widened between Nixon and Erkenbrecker to accommodate a parking garage that the zoo never built. They did not add lanes -- they merely widened each lane by one foot. 

^ODOT has stupid rules regarding new parking garages.  Vine St. was widened between Nixon and Erkenbrecker to accommodate a parking garage that the zoo never built. They did not add lanes -- they merely widened each lane by one foot.

 

ODOT so far hasn't had any role in the Liberty St project, and since it isn't a state route, I don't think they would get involved... so that's the good news.

 

As for that stretch of Vine St, it looks ridiculous since they allow onstreet parking on the west curb, in a lane that is almost twice the width of a car.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1405077,-84.5093776,3a,75y,203.65h,82.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYBEGJtyyFPdQJbt4N0Nz2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

^My old house was torn down for that ridiculous project. 

The google car appears to have driven onto the Liberty St. sidewalk:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1127276,-84.5155748,3a,75y,253.61h,90.22t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-RQRuBamQwAAAQYahbmiw!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

^That's the first image that goes into the Crossroads Health Center. You can go inside the building on streetview.

I'm hearing money has been allocated from the casino neighborhood improvement funds to implement the Liberty Street Safety Improvement plan.

How do we get rid of cross roads health on vine, the goodwill I believe on east 12th with that large parking lot. They obviously are in the way of larger developments, but how do you do this without cries against gentrification or the continued displacement of putting all the social services in the west end.

I'm hearing money has been allocated from the casino neighborhood improvement funds to implement the Liberty Street Safety Improvement plan.

I also noted in the last OTRCC meeting notes, they mentioned $2.2M had been allocated for the "Liberty St. construction project". Does anyone know any details about what this is for? I don't have a clue what the entire road diet plan entails, and so what portion of that 2.2M could cover.

I'm hearing money has been allocated from the casino neighborhood improvement funds to implement the Liberty Street Safety Improvement plan.

I also noted in the last OTRCC meeting notes, they mentioned $2.2M had been allocated for the "Liberty St. construction project". Does anyone know any details about what this is for? I don't have a clue what the entire road diet plan entails, and so what portion of that 2.2M could cover.

 

Yeah, I'm curious what the current plan is and how they intend to fund it. Last I heard, the project was basically dead because the city wanted to sell the "new" land on the south side of the street and us that money to pay for it, effectively making it a "free" project. Has $2.2 million been allocated for the construction but they still intend to make that money back by selling the land?

I'm hearing money has been allocated from the casino neighborhood improvement funds to implement the Liberty Street Safety Improvement plan.

I also noted in the last OTRCC meeting notes, they mentioned $2.2M had been allocated for the "Liberty St. construction project". Does anyone know any details about what this is for? I don't have a clue what the entire road diet plan entails, and so what portion of that 2.2M could cover.

 

The five lane option was preferrred in all the DOTE open houses and also supported by the OTRCC last October I believe. My understanding is they are coming up with a final design now and the construction money has already been allocated by city council.

It should also be noted that the city is currently doing some work at the intersection of Central Parkway and Liberty. I believe they are installing new traffic lights and eliminating the "slip ramps" which should improve the pedestrian experience. However this seems very poorly timed, given the fact that the Liberty Street road diet may require that intersection to be re-done again.

I noticed the other day that there is construction going on at the intersection of Central/Liberty. The right hand turn lanes that create the sidewalk islands had been closed and it looks like new bases for traffic lights had been poured in the lanes..effectively eliminating them. Not sure if this is related to the overall project or just downsizing that intersection.

Yeah... I noticed that too. Looks like they're building the new post foundation in the continuous turn lane, so maybe they're getting rid of that continuous turn lane. If local funding is in place for the road diet, I wish they had waited to move the post so they could move it as far north as possible. Probably the funding is coming from a different source, but still frustrating that these types of improvements can't be better coordinated by DOTE to maximize impact and minimize cost.

 

I don't think they ever intended to pay for the entire project by selling the land, but that was a way to leverage more city funds.

Cones are up east of Vine blocking the southernmost two lanes of Liberty Street right now (for reasons unknown to me)- but it's a pretty good approximation of what the street might look like after the project is completed

Can someone take a pic.

Cones were up for the hudy 14k run this morning

Question? So assuming funding is in place, the 2.2 million, what's the time line then for this project to occur? Are there any more steps? Or is it all settled and will start soon? Just curious!

I've heard a lot of conflicting things about the current status of the Liberty Street Road Diet. Some people have told me the funding is in place, another one told me the project is basically dead because the city can not figure out a way to narrow it and make the numbers worth. Since we haven't had any public meetings in a year or more, we don't really know for sure.

I've heard a lot of conflicting things about the current status of the Liberty Street Road Diet. Some people have told me the funding is in place, another one told me the project is basically dead because the city can not figure out a way to narrow it and make the numbers worth. Since we haven't had any public meetings in a year or more, we don't really know for sure.

 

Who is telling you the numbers don't work? Because the city's plan doesn't reduce the traffic flow at all, but instead takes away parking during peak times for two lanes of traffic in each direction.

 

Personally I think they should keep the parking (on street parking creates a barrier to increase pedestrian safety) and go down to one lane of traffic in each direction- maybe that could happen after they actually narrow the road.

 

This did seem to good to be true how well it was progressing in a town full of naysayers though.

So the money wasn't allocated from the jack casino neighborhood improvement plan? Or it was? Confused...

So the money wasn't allocated from the jack casino neighborhood improvement plan? Or it was? Confused...

 

I dunno. People on this forum have said that $2.2 million was allocated towards the project. However I don't know if that's enough to fund the project anyway. According to my source who think that the project is dead, there are underground utilities that would need to be relocated if the street is narrowed. Utility relocation can be very expensive.

If Simpson was elected mayor do you think there would be more of a push for the street diet to happen?

So the money wasn't allocated from the jack casino neighborhood improvement plan? Or it was? Confused...

 

I dunno. People on this forum have said that $2.2 million was allocated towards the project. However I don't know if that's enough to fund the project anyway. According to my source who think that the project is dead, there are underground utilities that would need to be relocated if the street is narrowed. Utility relocation can be very expensive.

 

That was never mentioned on any of the public meetings they did about this project. The electric is run on poles east-west on the north side of the street. I even asked about being able to bury that electric and they said that takes too much time and money and their plan was to not to have to touch the north curb. Were they talking a sewer or gas line or something? Whatever it is it would have had to be installed post 1950's when the widened the street to begin with.

If Simpson was elected mayor do you think there would be more of a push for the street diet to happen?

 

Probably. What we really need to happen is to pass a city-wide "Vision Zero" or "Complete Streets" plan that mandates all new road projects comply with certain standards (good crosswalks, bumpouts, narrowed lanes when possible, etc.) Then it's really easy to say "Liberty Street doesn't comply with the city's standards, let's redesign and rebuild it." Every dollar that the DOTE spends on roads in the city would have to comply with these standards.

 

I could see Simpson getting behind a plan like that. Cranley would never get behind a plan like that.

 

"I could see Simpson getting behind a plan like that. Cranley would never get behind a plan like that."

 

That would be "scary" haha

haha like form-based codes were "scary" to him

So in the OTRCC this week, it was confirmed 2.2 million has been allocated for the street diet. How exactly will this impact the street diet in it's current form? Will that be enough to cover all of the costs?

^I would highly doubt that 2.2 million would do much in the way of the street diet.  I am guessing it is probably a $20 million project at least in the first phase...

Didn't the say that none of the utilities are under the portion of the road that will be removed? Which would mean it would entail building a new curb and sidewalks and sidewalk bumpouts and repaving/restriping the remaining road. Is that really a $20 million project? I don't know much about road construction costs, but that seems too high for what this is.

Didn't the say that none of the utilities are under the portion of the road that will be removed? Which would mean it would entail building a new curb and sidewalks and sidewalk bumpouts and repaving/restriping the remaining road. Is that really a $20 million project? I don't know much about road construction costs, but that seems too high for what this is.

That's my understanding as well. The utility lines are above ground on the north side, so I don't think utility relocation would be necessary for this project. The southern curb just needs to be moved, streetlights moved, fire hydrants moved, etc. Overall, seems pretty straightforward and should not be terribly expensive.

 

That being said, I absolutely think the electric lines SHOULD be buried as part of this project. The wooden poles with triple lines are very, very ugly. So, I'd like to know what the marginal cost would be to get the utilities buried. At the very least, I'd like them to install empty conduit so that in the future we could run utility lines through it without having to tear up the sidewalks/street again.

I doubt it's very much. I remember wondering why the utilities weren't buried along Race during streetcar construction and was told it would have added a mere $300k to the budget. Granted that's just light poles, so this would likely be a bit more, but still. Utilities should always be buried when there's an opportunity to do so. Nothing cheapens the look of a street like wooden poles, gooseneck lights, and tangled power lines with rotting insulation like we currently have.

Didn't the say that none of the utilities are under the portion of the road that will be removed? Which would mean it would entail building a new curb and sidewalks and sidewalk bumpouts and repaving/restriping the remaining road. Is that really a $20 million project? I don't know much about road construction costs, but that seems too high for what this is.

That's my understanding as well. The utility lines are above ground on the north side, so I don't think utility relocation would be necessary for this project. The southern curb just needs to be moved, streetlights moved, fire hydrants moved, etc. Overall, seems pretty straightforward and should not be terribly expensive.

 

That being said, I absolutely think the electric lines SHOULD be buried as part of this project. The wooden poles with triple lines are very, very ugly. So, I'd like to know what the marginal cost would be to get the utilities buried. At the very least, I'd like them to install empty conduit so that in the future we could run utility lines through it without having to tear up the sidewalks/street again.

 

You do need to include relocating all storm water inlets on south side of street so there is some underground infrastructure involved.

 

In discussions with DOTE biggest challenge is recent bids have been coming in way over budget due to the boom in construction recently, so city dollars don't go as far especially when many projects are not getting any bidders.

I was told by a contact at the city that there are underground utilities that would have to be moved. I’m not sure if that’s gas, water, sewer, fiber optic cable, or what. Isn’t that data available on CAGIS?

There probably is some confusion over what constitutes a "utility line". There must be water lines for the fire hydrants, and as mcmicken[/member] pointed out, there are definitely storm water drains. But the electric lines are above ground on the north side. There are just a couple of buildings on the south side that "face" Liberty (Crossroads and metroPCS), so I suspect that there aren't many gas/water access lines on the southern side.

Electric and probably cable are above ground, but everything else is underneath, including phone.  Moving things like sewers and fire hydrants aren't trivial, but I agree $20M sounds excessive.  On the other hand, it takes about $1M/mile to simply resurface a typical city street with asphalt (say 40' wide, with a handful of manhole covers, storm drain inlets, and some striping to work with).  That may or may not include some work on curbs, but otherwise it's a simple "mill and fill" where they grind down the top, fix any sunken grates or covers, and lay down two thin layers of new asphalt.  So with Liberty being a mile long from Reading to Central Parkway, along with being nearly double width, that's about $2M for a simple rehab.  Once you start moving curbs, regrading, establishing new curb cut locations and utility accesses (water, sewer, gas, and any other service laterals going to the south need to have their demarcation/shutoff valves moved so they're still in the public right-of-way), then I can certainly see it ballooning a bit. Of course, to go through all that and still leave the electric and cable overhead is criminal, IMO.

Carmel, Indiana is dramatically redesigning 1.2 miles of Range Line Rd, from 116th St to 4th St, at a cost of $13.4 million: http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/04/17/carmel-spend-134m-transform-range-line-road/100563190/

 

That road diet in Carmel is a MUCH bigger project than anything that has been discussed yet for Liberty. The Carmel project includes re-configuring several intersections into roundabouts, raised crosswalks, landscaped median, and separated bike paths. The <a href="https://cincinnati-oh.gov/dote/dote-projects/liberty-street-safety-improvement-study/">first phase of the Liberty St project</a> is only looking at Central Parkway to Sycamore, which is only ~0.6 miles, and the alternatives that have been proposed are all much more modest than the Carmel project. I know it's hard to compare projects since there are always some aspects that add/reduce costs that might not be obvious, but I think our Liberty project should be MUCH cheaper than the Carmel Range Line project.

 

 

 

 

The latest on the Liberty Street Safety Improvement project including a draft of the final project plan.  It is moving forward.

 

 

http://otrcommunitycouncil.org/liberty-street-safety-improvement-project/

 

 

If you're an OTR resident and want a voice on this and other neighborhood issues YOU NEED TO JOIN THE OTR COMMUNITY COUNCIL. You need to join a month ahead of time to be a voting member.  Community Council approval is going to weigh heavily on the fate of this project. 

Excited to see this move forward. I like the median on the block of Pleasant St, it will make crossing Liberty there less of a chore.

I wish one of these alternatives included bike lanes, but even despite the lack of them, I’m glad this is moving forward.

^ I think bike lanes were included on one of the alternatives that was presented to the neighborhood a year ago. It seems like DOTE has really narrowed it down to one solution and will move forward with it unless the neighborhood pushes back.

How much land is estimated to be returned for development?

 

Also, if its the same amount of lanes, does that mean we are simply dealing with more wider sidewalks? Or will the lanes themselves be narrowed as well?

I don't have exact measurements, but in the draft plan you can see the old right of way shown in comparison to the new right of way and the old curb in relation to the new curb.

 

It's not quite as much land as I think would be ideal, but the new layout of the road will be much more conducive to human movement. I like the way they handled the Pleasant Street corridor with the planted median (hopefully those trees are allowed to fully mature) and crosswalks. Should help slow people down so pedestrians can cross.

What's a little odd is the way that the road "steps" down to the south as you go further east. So on the west side, all the reclaimed land is given to the south side of the street, which is good for infill projects like the KFC/cell phone store that 3CDC purchased. As you go east, they use some of the reclaimed land to widen the sidewalk on the north side of the street. I'm not sure if this is because there's less development potential around Liberty & Main, or because they needed to meet the existing road geometry.

 

It looks like quite a lot was given back to the land.  Most of the south side of the street, if I am looking at it correctly, is giving back 11' of land, so it would be significant.

 

 

Like what Travis said, it steps down, so it looks like more land the further west you go, but the east side is still significant with the sidewalk bump outs, to reduce the crossing area.

Who will own the new property created when the ROW is reduced in width? Is it given to the existing adjacent property owners? I know it's a sliver of land that really couldn't be a parcel in and of itself, but it's still quite valuable.

From what I heard at the public meetings in the past, they are planning on selling the land to the adjacent property owners, but the mechanics of it were not fully worked out yet. They want to keep them contiguous since there really isn't any build-able space on its own.