^ This happens all the time and it's mind boggling. I wouldn't be surprised if the Liberty Street "Road Diet" budget ends up seeing an unnecessary and punitive cost increase because it will result in replacing recently upgraded infrastructure (ie refunding whatever project budget paid to replaced the curb cuts - my guess is an accessibility initiative seeing that the tactile warning strips look like the only upgrades).

 

Knowing the "Road Diet" may rework this intersection, the city could have saved several thousand dollars by simply delaying the project or, if deemed urgent, using temporary surface applied tactile warning systems.

Edited September 18, 20195 yr by Ram23

Looks like ADA stuff. They might have had to do those no matter what.

The timing is suspicious because the neighborhood asked for new bump-outs to be built at Liberty & Main as part of the Main Street renovation last year. The city told the neighborhood no, and said that the intersection will be handled as part of the Liberty Street project instead. Of course the Liberty Street project continues to be delayed. If the city would have just built the bump-outs as part of the Main Street project, we could have a substantially improved intersection there now.

The 6-lane plan is before the planning commission.  The budget is $3.6 million.  

 

 

It's hard to tell from those drawings, but it appears that the property lines at some points might expand by less than 10 feet.  So all of this commotion and all of this drama and all of this money for the approximate width of a single parking space. 

Obviously this is not what the neighborhood wanted (we overwhelmingly and repeatedly asked for it to be narrowed to 5 lanes) but if this is the best the city can do, I still think it's good for the neighborhood and we should move forward with it ASAP. They did a really good job with making the bump-outs as big as possible and decreasing the corner radius to reclaim as much space as possible for pedestrians (Walnut & Liberty and Main & Liberty in particular). I still think that the off-peak lane configuration is going to be confusing for drivers, but whatever.

 

The addition of a new signalized intersection at Liberty & Liberty Hill (which was never discussed in any of the meetings leading up to the selection of the 5-lane option) is actually a huge win. Crossing Liberty Street between Pendleton and Mt. Auburn is extremely dangerous right now, with no crosswalk at Broadway and a poorly marked crosswalk at Pendleton Street that is rarely respected by drivers. Anything we can do to make that stretch of Liberty less of a highway is huge.

Looks like a protected island and crosswalks at Pleasant, that's a good addition

I find this maddening.   Reducing from 7 lanes to 6 still leaves it as a major arterial road.  Completely misses the point of the road diet.  The only benefits are the pedestrian bump outs, and as mayor Cranley pointed out, we could do that while keeping the 7 lanes for way less money.  If I am agreeing with Cranley, something is wrong.  

 

Better to just do the bump outs, and wait for a better political environment and try again to see if we can get it right.   

2 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

I find this maddening.   Reducing from 7 lanes to 6 still leaves it as a major arterial road.  Completely misses the point of the road diet.  The only benefits are the pedestrian bump outs, and as mayor Cranley pointed out, we could do that while keeping the 7 lanes for way less money.  If I am agreeing with Cranley, something is wrong.  

 

Better to just do the bump outs, and wait for a better political environment and try again to see if we can get it right.   

 

I agree.  This plan is not worth doing.  The same $3.4 million could accomplish a much broader improvement to the area by significantly narrowing the street.  

 

I'd like to see the city experiment hardcore - do a six month trial where the Liberty Rd. extension is closed off and Liberty St. proper is narrowed with cones and changed to stop signs east/west.  Do a resident survey at the end of that period and see if it's a disaster or if everyone adjusts and prefers the quieter alternative.  

3 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

Better to just do the bump outs, and wait for a better political environment and try again to see if we can get it right.   

 

The problem is, if the street is going to be narrowed at all, it needs to happen before new buildings are built along the south side of the street. If new buildings are built up to the current street width, you can never really narrow the street in the future. You could reallocate how that space is divvied up (take away car lanes and give that space to wider sidewalks, bike lanes, etc.) but you would still have super wide street that divides the neighborhood in two. We have an opportunity to reduce the width of the street by 10 feet right now and "lock in" this change by building infill up to that narrower street. I think it would be extremely foolish to say "no, just give us bumpouts" and hope that at some point we have a more progressive mayor who goes all in on Vision Zero and is willing to take away car lanes.

On 1/13/2020 at 6:30 PM, taestell said:

 

The problem is, if the street is going to be narrowed at all, it needs to happen before new buildings are built along the south side of the street. If new buildings are built up to the current street width, you can never really narrow the street in the future. You could reallocate how that space is divvied up (take away car lanes and give that space to wider sidewalks, bike lanes, etc.) but you would still have super wide street that divides the neighborhood in two. We have an opportunity to reduce the width of the street by 10 feet right now and "lock in" this change by building infill up to that narrower street. I think it would be extremely foolish to say "no, just give us bumpouts" and hope that at some point we have a more progressive mayor who goes all in on Vision Zero and is willing to take away car lanes.

 

I understand your point, but disagree.  Right now, most of the blocks either have a surface parking lot, or a tiny triangle of land too small to build on.  Accepting a modest 10 ft increase makes those triangles possible to build on.  Once those get built, to your point, it is unlikely we will ever get it narrowed to a proper width.   If we leave it as is but put in bump outs, those triangle are not possible to build on, and the parking lots are going to stay parking lots for quite some time.  3cdc just built the lot on Race/liberty last year.  They clearly expect to keep it as such for a while.   I realize there have been some parking lots in OTR/Pendleton that have gotten new infill, but there are still way more vacant buildings and vacant lots to be developed before we get to a point of parking lots delevoping en mass.  There is too much money to be made on them right now.

With final approval, Liberty Street project may finally happen

 

 

After nearly eight years of debate, the Cincinnati Planning Commission on Friday cast what may be the final vote to narrow Liberty Street in an attempt to reconnect the north and south parts of Over-the-Rhine.

 

Liberty from Central Parkway to Sycamore Street will be reduced from seven lanes to six, with much the north side of the street having 24-hour-a-day parking. Effectively, that would take the street to five lanes at all times, reducing the width pedestrians have to cross and adding some developable land on the south side of the street.

 

For most days, there also will be parking on the south side from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. Monday through Friday and 24 hours a day on Saturday and Sunday.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/01/17/with-final-approval-liberty-street-project-may.html

Based on the cutbacks of projects to make up for the Covid-19 budget shortfalls the Mayor just spoke of, who else thinks this will be on top to get the ax?  I completely disagree if it does, i just know of the Mayors feet dragging during the whole process.

Edited March 23, 20205 yr by SleepyLeroy
addition

Last I heard, the six-lane plan has been moving forward for the past few months, but I wouldn't be surprised if Covid-19 becomes the mayor's latest excuse to try to cancel this project.

At this point, with Smitherman out of the race, maybe this should just wait until after the Mayoral election in two years. Have there really been any developers champing at the bit to build on the expanded south-of-Liberty lots? 

It'd be nice to get Mallory back. I didn't know Cincinnati allows term-limited mayors to come back after some time off.

Edited March 23, 20205 yr by GCrites80s

18 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

At this point, with Smitherman out of the race, maybe this should just wait until after the Mayoral election in two years. Have there really been any developers champing at the bit to build on the expanded south-of-Liberty lots? 

 

The project that will really be able to take advantage of a narrowed Liberty Street are 3CDC's eventual development on the south side of Liberty between Elm and Race. With the impending economic slowdown, I don't think that will be happening very soon. They still have the former OTR Kroger site to redevelop too.

22 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

At this point, with Smitherman out of the race, maybe this should just wait until after the Mayoral election in two years. Have there really been any developers champing at the bit to build on the expanded south-of-Liberty lots? 

This isn't the right topic, but where did you see that Smitherman is out of the race?

9 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

This isn't the right topic, but where did you see that Smitherman is out of the race?

 

He announced it back on January 15.

Seelbach says construction of the Liberty Street project is still scheduled to proceed as scheduled, despite COVID. Ground breaking scheduled for April 6:

 

 

City to begin $7.5 million safety improvement project to major thoroughfare

 

A $7.5 million safety improvement and street rehabilitation project will launch this morning on one of the major arteries in the city's urban core.

 

The city of Cincinnati’s Department of Transportation & Engineering is beginning extensive work on Liberty Street between Reading Road in Pendleton and Dalton Avenue in Queensgate.

 

“This project will improve safety and mobility for pedestrians and motorists by adding a variety of traffic-calming measures along a major downtown thoroughfare,” John Brazina, director of the department, said in a news release. “The changes will also enhance the appearance of Liberty Street and the quality of life for residents and businesses in Over-the-Rhine, Pendleton, Mount Auburn, the West End and Queensgate.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/04/06/city-to-begin-7-5-million-safety-improvement.html

 

It looks like this project grew in scope and cost since the last time I read up on it. It now includes repaving Liberty from Central Parkway west to Dalton Avenue, but no safety improvements or traffic calming for that stretch.

 

I’ve said before that safety improvements and traffic calming are just as important along that stretch of Liberty in the West End as they are through OTR, but I wonder if people will use FCC stadium access as an excuse to block that forever now.

Edited April 6, 20205 yr by thebillshark

On 4/6/2020 at 3:14 PM, thebillshark said:

It now includes repaving Liberty from Central Parkway west to Dalton Avenue, but no safety improvements or traffic calming for that stretch.

 

Of course! It wouldn't be Cincinnati if we didn't sneak a ton of extra road repaving into a project that's supposed to be primarily about pedestrian safety.

25 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Of course! It wouldn't be Cincinnati if we didn't sneak a ton of extra road repaving into a project that's supposed to be primarily about pedestrian safety.

I don’t mind road repaving in and of itself, but it will probably will be used as an excuse not to go back and touch that street with additional pedestrian improvements for many years. (“We just got done with that street”)

I think the way they are paying for this is partly through the bonds issued for the Capital Acceleration Program (CAP). The city is resurfacing a lot of downtown/OTR streets this year under the program and I bet Liberty was baked into that somehow.

4 hours ago, thebillshark said:

I don’t mind road repaving in and of itself, but it will probably will be used as an excuse not to go back and touch that street with additional pedestrian improvements for many years. (“We just got done with that street”)

I get what you are saying, but that doesn't seem to stop the Water Works or Duke. I think they prefer to cut up new streets. ?

 

2 hours ago, JYP said:

I think the way they are paying for this is partly through the bonds issued for the Capital Acceleration Program (CAP). The city is resurfacing a lot of downtown/OTR streets this year under the program and I bet Liberty was baked into that somehow.

 

Also, the city's capital fund is primarily funded through property tax, not the earnings tax.  So as a percentage it won't be dinged as much by the current shortfalls in the operations side of the city budget.  

6 hours ago, JYP said:

I think the way they are paying for this is partly through the bonds issued for the Capital Acceleration Program (CAP).

 

IIRC, the City previously did not plan to repave any of Liberty Street as part of the road diet. So if they got extra funding from the CAP to repave the whole length of Liberty Street, that's fine. As long as it's not taking money out of the OTR TIFs or the Pendleton casino fund for asphalt.

 

6 hours ago, JYP said:

The city is resurfacing a lot of downtown/OTR streets this year under the program and I bet Liberty was baked into that somehow.

 

It seems like every downtown street is getting jackhammered this week. I'm not sure if they are trying to accelerate utility work now in advance of repaving later this year, or if they're taking advantage of the empty streets because of the Covid-19 closures.

On 4/8/2020 at 9:49 PM, taestell said:

It seems like every downtown street is getting jackhammered this week. I'm not sure if they are trying to accelerate utility work now in advance of repaving later this year, or if they're taking advantage of the empty streets because of the Covid-19 closures.

Looks like you were dead-on: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/cmgr/memo/index.cfm?action=public.viewpdf&name=40931.pdf 

 

Quote

I have directed the Department of Transportation and Engineering (DOTE) to work with City departments and utility companies to advance street rehabilitation and utility work in the Central Business District and Over-theRhine (OTR). Moving up the timeline for these projects enables us to take advantage of the light vehicle and pedestrian traffic caused by the “stay-at-home” order issued by Governor DeWine. This move will allow us to lessen some of the construction-related annoyances experienced by downtown residents, commuters and businesses once the order is lifted.

 

Work is underway.  They are doing utility work along several blocks.  

Yeah, utility work currently stretches from about Sycamore to Elm. They were directing traffic at Liberty & Vine, but it looked like many of the other north-south streets were simply closed off to traffic, as if they're taking advantage of low traffic levels to get this work done fast.

 

I also noticed that Vine Street's sidewalks are being redone all the way up to Liberty, including utility burial, so there is a potential for Liberty & Vine to look really good. I have no idea if they plan on doing anything with that sea of concrete in front of Crossroad Health Center, but they should use the opportunity to bust up some of that concrete and add some grass or something.

 

 

Are they burying the power lines?

12 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Are they burying the power lines?

 

Not on Liberty.

I haven't been down Liberty recently so I don't know how much progress they have made on the "narrowing" so far, but apparently they are starting the resurfacing already.

 

 

11 minutes ago, taestell said:

I haven't been down Liberty recently so I don't know how much progress they have made on the "narrowing" so far, but apparently they are starting the resurfacing already.

 

 

 

They haven't done anything except dig a few holes and replace some utilities.

 

I don't expect this to be a final pave but this usually happens closer to the end, not the beginning of a street project. 

In the city they usually grind and then put the first of two lifts of asphalt down before starting work on drains, manhole covers, curbs, and whatnot. The second asphalt lift doesn't happen until the very end.  I guess it mitigates the torn-upedness of the street for the length of time they're working, and also helps establish the final elevations more accurately.  It probably helps with surveying and marking too.  

31 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

In the city they usually grind and then put the first of two lifts of asphalt down before starting work on drains, manhole covers, curbs, and whatnot. The second asphalt lift doesn't happen until the very end.  I guess it mitigates the torn-upedness of the street for the length of time they're working, and also helps establish the final elevations more accurately.  It probably helps with surveying and marking too.  

 

Yes I notice this everywhere. I always thought they were letting it settle because it seemed to take so long to cover up. They are doing this on Erie in East Hyde Park right now too.

Progress on the new south side sidewalks:

 

They have installed a good portion of the south curbs now. 
 

This project is turning out incredibly underwhelming.

 

If the new curbs extended out to where the construction cones are now, we would really have something. But they don’t come close. 

anyone have pictures? 

Of course narrower would have been better, but this is still a good project that fixes a lot of the problems with the street and will be a dramatic improvement for pedestrians. For example the new bumpout at Republic on the south side reduces the crossing distance for pedestrians by about half, and forces cars to slow down before turning instead of whipping around that corner with no concern for pedestrians.

 

On 1/11/2020 at 4:41 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

The biggest improvement will be Liberty & Main. This will be so, so much better than what's there now:

 

On 1/11/2020 at 4:41 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

South side of Liberty at Walnut street looking west.

2 hours ago, taestell said:

Of course narrower would have been better, but this is still a good project that fixes a lot of the problems with the street and will be a dramatic improvement for pedestrians. 

 

 

Right. My opinion might turn more positive when the bump outs, medians, north sidewalk work, lane rearrangement and other features are complete.

1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

Right. My opinion might turn more positive when the bump outs, medians, north sidewalk work, lane rearrangement and other features are complete.

 

It is going to be weird with the street trees on the south side of the street in the middle of the sidewalk.

Hamilton Ave had 16,000 vehicles per day in 2019 (after 24 hour on street parking was allowed) so it was basically one travel lane each way. 

 

 

Liberty had 16,000 vehicles per day in 2019. 

 

 

We could have had one travel lane each direction and a center turn lane/median and handled the traffic no problem. 

To make matters worse, the engineers on the project even said that the traffic on Liberty isn't as responsive to rush hour. It gets a more consistent flow from like 8am-8pm. So the peak traffic on Liberty is probably much lower than the peak traffic on Hamilton.

 

This is why I preferred to wait until we could do it right, rather than waste our time shrinking one lane of traffic and being unable to revisit the issue for another 15-20 years, because we just redid the street.

So in the image below (taken from taestell's post) it looks like the sidewalk got wider but the vacant lot did not. Are there any undeveloped lots that are going to gain property, even a modest 5-10 feet, like the original plan called for? 

For now, they are just making the sidewalks on the south side of the street super-wide. The good part about this is that they are keeping all the mature trees. They just added more concrete between the trees (which used to be right against the curb) and the new curb. You can see that more easily here:

 

On 7/7/2020 at 8:23 PM, taestell said:

 

I don't know if the city ever fully addressed the question of "what do we do with all of these newly created small parcels of land?" Hopefully, as the adjacent properties are redeveloped, the city will sell them that land and the city doesn't continue to own and maintain a 70' wide ROW forever...which would kinda defeat the point of this project.

34 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Hamilton Ave had 16,000 vehicles per day in 2019 (after 24 hour on street parking was allowed) so it was basically one travel lane each way. 

 

Liberty had 16,000 vehicles per day in 2019. 

 

We could have had one travel lane each direction and a center turn lane/median and handled the traffic no problem. 

 

Despite the low traffic count, traffic on Liberty routinely backs up onto Central Parkway because of long red lights at Elm. Why are the red lights so long? Because the street is so wide - pedestrians need the time. The same goes for every intersection east of Elm - traffic backs up quite a bit during long red lights. I'm guessing the city wanted to keep two travel lanes on Liberty not to handle the traffic, but for the capacity to store cars during red lights on short lengths of street between each signal. It seems like shorter red lights with a single travel lane could have resolved that problem, if it was indeed the problem.

It doesn't even seem narrower.  It's like when some extremely obese person loses 30lbs and is upset that nobody notices.