We didn't turn the Arena District into Talladega and it still empties out fine.

I have to wonder if the intentional delay has to do with the creeping of private development north of Liberty, where 3CDC can't control it.  This is the same reason why the streetcar is hated...it put the Findlay Market area in play. 3CDC has to hate that Rhinegeist is getting in the development business.  There is a real threat that the center of OTR's nightlife could shift from Vine at 12th, which 3CDC has so laboriously cultivated, 1/2 mile north from Findlay Market north to McMicken St. 

 

 

 

3CDC could very well go and buy properties north of Liberty but they've chosen not to.  They've chosen to shift focus on the CBD, specifically it's northern part, which imo is a big need. Plenty of other private investors are already investing in OTR north of Liberty. 

 

Btw there really isn't a center of nightlife in OTR.  Yeah all the restaurants are popular on Vine but the bars are on Main St.  Then there's the park on Race and the arts venues (Music Hall, Memorial Hall, Shakespeare theater, SCPA) on Elm.  In between and on all those streets are lots of different restaurants, bars and shops that are popular.  All of OTR south of Liberty is the center of nightlife with different areas offering different things to do. 

I have to wonder if the intentional delay has to do with the creeping of private development north of Liberty, where 3CDC can't control it.  This is the same reason why the streetcar is hated...it put the Findlay Market area in play. 3CDC has to hate that Rhinegeist is getting in the development business.  There is a real threat that the center of OTR's nightlife could shift from Vine at 12th, which 3CDC has so laboriously cultivated, 1/2 mile north from Findlay Market north to McMicken St.

 

3CDC will be ecstatic if Rhinegeist starts seriously developing the area north of Liberty. The more population and business density in the basin the better off 3CDC will be.

3CDC could very well go and buy properties north of Liberty but they've chosen not to.  They've chosen to shift focus on the CBD, specifically it's northern part, which imo is a big need. Plenty of other private investors are already investing in OTR north of Liberty. 

 

I think you're right that 3CDC is happy to have other developers in the neighborhood, especially around Findlay Market, but 3CDC has acquired several properties in the 1700 block of Vine St, some as recently as just a few months ago.

 

I'd encourage you all to listen to Leeper on the Pete Witte podcast, starting around 26:00: http://livefromtable1.libsyn.com/live-from-table-1-draft-leeper

 

He talks about how when he runs up Elm to McMicken and then down Vine, he feels the area "needs" work... and then a bit later he talks about how he wants 3CDC to focus on public/civic spaces. Reading between the lines, I assume he's thinking about the Findlay Playground, and how transforming that area could be catalytic in a similar way that Washington Park was. He says that their current acquisition strategy for properties north of Liberty has been to go after the "problem" properties, even if they don't have the most redevelopment potential. By taking care of the problematic properties, it helps other developers and investors in the area.

Is there anything city council can do, or even vote on? Any type of finance package or anything?

It's currently being discussed at City Hall. Sittenfeld is telling Assistant City Manager Juech that City Council makes policy and it's Juech's job to follow that policy. Both Sittenfeld and Landsman have said that they would be willing to bring legislation in front of their committees to force the issue if necessary. (However you'd need a 6 member majority on council to pass the ordinance or else Cranley could veto it.) Seelbach also reiterating that he's 100% in support of the traffic calming plan. Juech continuing to make excuses about the cost, the traffic studies, etc...

It's sounding like Young would also support an ordinance to force it to happen. Can we get 2 more?

You might be able to get David Mann on a good day, but cant count him as a definite.

I liked Dennard when she was campaigning, but starting to regret having voted for her. This is something she could get behind but seems to be wavering from the rest of the democrats on a number of items lately for her own agenda. 

Based on everything I know about Dennard, I suspect she'd vote to keep the road diet going. It's Mann that I'm unsure of. He wasn't in attendance at today's special session.

So what’s the next step? Will there be any special council meeting in the coming weeks to actually take a vote on any type of ordinance to push the diet through?

I think everyone needs to be patient at this point. Sittenfeld mentioned a September timeframe for bringing an ordinance to council. I think council is technically on break right now (today's meeting was a special session) and there is probably some behind the scenes discussion amongst the council members going on right now to figure out where there are 6 votes in support of that ordinance.

How will they cover the cost of the new gap if it does pass?

That will be up to the council member that writes the ordinance. The ordinance will have to specify the source of the funds.

This was discussed in council today along with a debate about parking spots in Washington Park garage for SCPA teachers.  3CDC wanted to move those spots to the Town Center garage.  Contrary to popular assumption during the FCC Stadium debate, it was stated there are no current plans to redevelop the Town Center garage into a larger parking/mixed use structure!

 

New theory: maybe the FCC garage is going in the West End NORTH of Liberty Street somewhere between Central Avenue and Linn Street?  In the vicinity of Oliver and Poplar Streets? There's some vacant land over there and FCC could have taken a look when looking for alternate West End stadium sites (I remember reading they looked at several sites.) Maybe that's how the stadium is related to the Liberty Street project?

 

Even if true, that's not a good reason to stop the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project. 

 

EDIT:  It was suggested as a stadium site: https://local12.com/news/local/west-end-businessman-proposes-alternate-location-for-fc-cincinnati-stadium

^It's absolutely ridiculous that at this point we still haven't seen a final site plan.  Also, FC still has not secured every piece of land they need, especially the old theater on Central Ave. 

Based on everything I know about Dennard, I suspect she'd vote to keep the road diet going. It's Mann that I'm unsure of. He wasn't in attendance at today's special session.

 

He's on vacation this week.

How will they cover the cost of the new gap if it does pass?

 

They could redirect CAP dollars.

They could probably also insist that Water Works pay for the relocation of their own water main, as they were going to do originally.

Cincinnati Council members hammer administration for ‘pause’ in Liberty Street redevelopment project

 

Cincinnati City Council members ripped into the city’s administration for pausing a project to improve safety on Liberty Street by narrowing it, an initiative that also would add developable land back to the south side of the street.

 

In a memo to council on Tuesday, Acting City Manager Patrick Duhaney cited the potential traffic from the new FC Cincinnati stadium in the West End and a sudden budget shortfall for the Liberty Street project as reasons to delay it.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/08/08/cincinnati-council-members-hammer-administration.html

 

They could probably also insist that Water Works pay for the relocation of their own water main, as they were going to do originally.

 

Jeuch told Council that the burden of paying for moving a water main that wouldn't have had to get moved if not for this project shouldn't fall on ratepayers. Which is nonsense because that's exactly who should be paying to move water mains regardless of the project - and oh, taxpayers are all ratepayers in some way (directly or indirectly through rent). Jeuch is a joke.

Utilities are generally responsible for paying the cost of moving utilities if the city needs to take back the ROW for some reason. Of course the confusing thing here is that the city also owns Water Works so it's really a debate between two city departments about which pays to move the water main. This would be a moot point if Dohoney had succeeded in his plan to spin Water Works off from the city as a separate entity. Then the city could just say "you need to move your main" and WW would have to do it.

Thankfully (at least for me) FCC did not ask for the pause. I was getting into a silly debate with some people on r/FCCininnati over the plan. I guess some people will apparently defend FCC's actions no matter what. The following lines from Biz Journal article posted above ended it: 

 

FC Cincinnati's spokeswoman said the club did not ask the Liberty Street project to be paused.

 

“FCC’s focus is to keep traffic flowing efficiently for games and keep fans safe traveling to/from games by car, bike, foot, Uber/Lyft, Streetcar or Bird. We continue to work collaboratively with the city to achieve this goal," said spokeswoman Lizz Summers.

I've said it several times, but it bears repeating: the approved alternative has NO reduction in *peak* capacity over the current configuration (two lanes of travel with a center turn lane). So, the only reason to stop the project would be if the City wanted to *increase* vehicular capacity over the current configuration... which would be absolutely insane. I really hope sanity prevails and this project moves forward.

 

 

I've said it several times, but it bears repeating: the approved alternative has NO reduction in *peak* capacity over the current configuration (two lanes of travel with a center turn lane). So, the only reason to stop the project would be if the City wanted to *increase* vehicular capacity over the current configuration... which would be absolutely insane. I really hope sanity prevails and this project moves forward.

 

Or you know because there is a million dollar budget gap...which sounds like the more realistic reason why the pause and the other reason is just given as an excuse...

Or simply because our Mayor hates any project that takes any road space away from cars.

“FCC’s focus is to keep traffic flowing efficiently for games and keep fans safe traveling to/from games by car, bike, foot, Uber/Lyft, Streetcar or Bird. We continue to work collaboratively with the city to achieve this goal," said spokeswoman Lizz Summers.

 

What about the subway?

Slight update...seems like Greg Landesman is on board with pushing forward with the Liberty St Road Diet, and is calling for a special meeting on sept 4th.

 

Good morning ____,

 

Thank you for reaching out.

 

Although the Administration has decided to postpone the project from moving forward right now, I have expressed that the project should continue as planned. I have asked the Administration to come to my committee meeting on September 4th to discuss this further.

 

I’m very committed to making the city much more pedestrian friendly, and all of our neighborhoods much more walkable.

 

We’ll get the facts, and hopefully get the project back on track.

 

Greg

 

Greg Landsman

 

Councilmember

 

City of Cincinnati

 

801 Plum Street, Suite 346B

 

Cincinnati, Ohio 45202

 

(513) 352-5232

 

[email protected]

Or simply because our Mayor hates any project that takes any road space away from cars.

 

 

He needs those suburban votes.

It sounds like we have our 4 in support

 

Landesman

PG

Seelbach

Young

 

Do we know where the other 2 council members stand, Tamaya Dennard, and David Mann on pushing through with the diet?

Council is technically on summer recess right now, Mann is out of the country.

Council is technically on summer recess right now, Mann is out of the country.

 

Do we know if Dennard was in attendance at all during this prior week meeting?

The Acting City Manager proposed that the Liberty Street Road Diet be cancelled and, as a compromise, Liberty Street would remain the same width but bump-outs would be added to each intersection to reduce the pedestrian crossing distance. That's a pretty awful compromise considering that the 5-lane road diet plan is itself a compromise. (Most residents at the community input sessions preferred the even narrower options that the city presented, but the traffic engineers basically said, those are not real options, 5 lanes is the narrowest we can realistically go.)

 

PG Sittenfeld has proposed that a plot of city-owned land be sold and the proceeds from that sale be used to move the Liberty Street project forward. He has also said that he would vote against the separately-proposed OTR residential parking permit plan and removal of parking minimums (which 3CDC wants) unless the Liberty Street Road Diet moves forward. So all three issues would get bundled together and go to council for a single yes/no vote. I'm glad to see PG playing hardball with the City Administration on this.

 

Here's an article from the Enquirer about PG's proposal, but be aware that it contains factual errors:

 

To some residents of Over-the-Rhine, Liberty Street is a moat – a five- to six-lane strip dividing the neighborhood in half.

 

A typo:

 

The street wasn't always so wide. It was expanded from 25-feet across in the mid-1950s to link up the then-planning Interstate 71 and 75 expressway.

 

And is clearly written by someone who doesn't understand what is being proposed for Liberty Street:

 

The proposal would narrow the street by widening sidewalks to make them at least 11 feet wide. Widening the sidewalks out into the existing pavement would shrink the distance that pedestrians would need to traverse through traffic. The plan also would create parking in the curb lanes of the street during off-peak hours. Finally, trees would be planted on both sides of the street.

 

???

Any idea when that yes/no vote is to occur??

PG Sittenfeld tweeted today:

 

For folks who care about re-initiating and actually moving forward with implementation of the Liberty Street Improvement Project, please consider coming to City Hall for 1pm Budget & Finance committee meeting next Monday. I think its near-term fate could be decided there.

I heard on WVXU the other day that it was mentioned that since the water main was in the way to shrink the south side at the previously thought price why not just shrink from the north side of the street. Just wondering if this went any further than 'thinking out loud' as it seems to bypass all the chances to fix the south side street frontages.

The south side has a lot of empty lots since that's the direction it was originally expanded toward. This would allow new development to have additional square footage.

 

Shrinking the north side would largely leave the block the same development-wise with the exception of a possible redevelopment of the Shell station. Most of what was demolished on the south side was never redeveloped. Just awkward triangular lots next to buildings that are largely unable to utilize them currently. By shrinking the south side, we could get wider sidewalks and additional development.

 

The resale of that land to adjacent landowners was also partially a method to fund the project.

I heard on WVXU the other day that it was mentioned that since the water main was in the way to shrink the south side at the previously thought price why not just shrink from the north side of the street. Just wondering if this went any further than 'thinking out loud' as it seems to bypass all the chances to fix the south side street frontages.

 

If they shrank it from the north, I would be less interested in shrinking the right of way and more interested in a design that created bike lanes with bump outs for pedestrians. The appeal of the current plan for me is to have buildings facing the street again on the south side.

^ True on both your accounts, I didnt think of the revenue of the new south side lots being used to fund the project too but good point. Hopefully this was just some out loud talking that got more play than it deserved.

 

Did yesterday's parking ordinances include anything about the Liberty Street project? Wasn't PG going to include it all in a single funding package?

 

 

Two adjacent vacant lots at the intersection of Republic & Liberty (1539 & 1541 Republic) just sold for $70,000 each to a certain Gregory P. Amend, a real estate attorney from Cleveland:

https://www.bdblaw.com/attorneys/gregory-p-amend/

 

These lots were formerly under the auspices of 3CDC, so no telling what the plan is. 

Did yesterday's parking ordinances include anything about the Liberty Street project? Wasn't PG going to include it all in a single funding package?

 

He wanted to, but for whatever reason, they did not vote on the Liberty Street project. Only the parking requirements elimination & residential parking permit program (both of which passed).

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/10/05/city-sells-major-piece-of-downtown-property-across.html

 

The city sold the Whex Garage for 1.75 Million to Carell OH LLC.

 

If I remember correctly, PG Sittenfield plan was to use of the funds from selling this property and allocate it the liberty st diet funding gap..

Word on the street is that council will be voting on the Liberty Street project soon and it may not have enough votes to survive. If you haven't already written to City Council to express your support, please do so now. This is our last opportunity to save the project. There will be no do-overs.

 

Subject: Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project

To: [email protected]

CC: [email protected], [email protected]

 

Members of City Council,

 

Since 2015, I have attended several community input sessions regarding the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project, previously referred to as the Liberty Street Road Diet. Each of these meetings was held at the Woodward Theater for a packed audience of people who live, work, or spend time in Over-the-Rhine. Members of the community spoke about the need to make Liberty Street safer for all people, including pedestrians, bicyclists, and transit riders. We spoke about how the current design, at 7 lanes wide, is optimized for speeding cars and is wholly inappropriate for an urban neighborhood like Over-the-Rhine.

 

DOTE staff took the community input into consideration and ultimately presented their final plan to OTR Community Council on October 23, 2017. It called for removing two lanes from Liberty Street, which will reduce the crossing distance for pedestrians and discourage excessive speeding. Additionally, this will free up land for new development along the south side of the street, providing space for new housing, retail, or office space, which will generate additional tax revenue for the city. The project was set to go out for bid this fall and begin construction in 2019.

 

Unfortunately, according to rumors currently circulating, it seems that the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project has been "paused" because of concerns about the traffic that will be generated by the new FC Cincinnati stadium in the West End. It is frustrating the Liberty Street plan, which has been in the works for years, might be cancelled because of a stadium plan that didn't exist until a few months ago. Additionally, it is disappointing that the OTR Community Council was not permitted to be involved in the stadium's Community Benefits Agreement, and yet, Over-the-Rhine would be negatively impacted by the cancellation of the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project.

 

I urge City Council to pass a resolution requiring the City Manager follow through with the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project.

 

Respectfully,

Travis Estell

Over-the-Rhine

Word on the street is that council will be voting on the Liberty Street project soon and it may not have enough votes to survive. If you haven't already written to City Council to express your support, please do so now. This is our last opportunity to save the project. There will be no do-overs.

 

Subject: Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project

To: [email protected]

CC: [email protected], [email protected]

 

Members of City Council,

 

Since 2015, I have attended several community input sessions regarding the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project, previously referred to as the Liberty Street Road Diet. Each of these meetings was held at the Woodward Theater for a packed audience of people who live, work, or spend time in Over-the-Rhine. Members of the community spoke about the need to make Liberty Street safer for all people, including pedestrians, bicyclists, and transit riders. We spoke about how the current design, at 7 lanes wide, is optimized for speeding cars and is wholly inappropriate for an urban neighborhood like Over-the-Rhine.

 

DOTE staff took the community input into consideration and ultimately presented their final plan to OTR Community Council on October 23, 2017. It called for removing two lanes from Liberty Street, which will reduce the crossing distance for pedestrians and discourage excessive speeding. Additionally, this will free up land for new development along the south side of the street, providing space for new housing, retail, or office space, which will generate additional tax revenue for the city. The project was set to go out for bid this fall and begin construction in 2019.

 

Unfortunately, according to rumors currently circulating, it seems that the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project has been "paused" because of concerns about the traffic that will be generated by the new FC Cincinnati stadium in the West End. It is frustrating the Liberty Street plan, which has been in the works for years, might be cancelled because of a stadium plan that didn't exist until a few months ago. Additionally, it is disappointing that the OTR Community Council was not permitted to be involved in the stadium's Community Benefits Agreement, and yet, Over-the-Rhine would be negatively impacted by the cancellation of the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project.

 

I urge City Council to pass a resolution requiring the City Manager follow through with the Liberty Street Safety Improvement Project.

 

Respectfully,

Travis Estell

Over-the-Rhine

 

Who is voting against this project? From what I’ve seen most council members seem to be in support I thought?

Last I saw, the belief was it has 5 votes for but needs a 6th vote to override a Cranley veto. 

For: Young, PG, Seelbach, Dennard and Landsmann. 

Mann is the one that needs to flip. I can't see Pastor, Amy or Smithermann flipping. 

A month ago Mann was on board...

 

Mann, David	Wed, Sep 19, 1:58 PM
to me

Hello,

 

Thank you for reaching out to my office. Pedestrian safety is very important to me, and so when I learned about the proposed Liberty Street Diet pause I was also surprised and concerned. City Council approved the original plan, therefore I believe City Council should be involved in any changes made to the plan to calm traffic on Liberty Street.

 

I appreciate that you took the time to write to me. If there is anything my office can do for you in the future, please do not hesitate to contact me or my staff.

 

Sincerely,

 

Councilmember David Mann.

3CDC was acting dumb today on WVXU, saying they were taking a wait-and-see stance, or some-such, re: the road diet. 

 

I'm speculating that 3CDC is *against* the diet, short-term, because it will improve the value of northern properties, and so make the area competitive with whatever they still have planned south of Liberty St. 

28 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

3CDC was acting dumb today on WVXU, saying they were taking a wait-and-see stance, or some-such, re: the road diet. 

 

I'm speculating that 3CDC is *against* the diet, short-term, because it will improve the value of northern properties, and so make the area competitive with whatever they still have planned south of Liberty St. 

 

I don’t think 3cdc cares about that one bit. I think they might want to avoid the politics of a project like this. Urbanist projects are easy targets for reactionary politicians and voters. You have to think deeply from multiple perspectives to understand the benefits of a project like this vs. being a “common sense” motorist who will complain about the “idiots” who slowed down their trip through the neighborhood by 30 seconds.