I can't believe someone seriously wrote that article!  What a f'in joke!

I was at NOTL this past weekend visiting some friends.  My thoughts were that it is a fun entertainment option offering a variety of things to do.  It seemed to be fairly busy.  The landscaping I thought was beautiful as was the staircases and brickwork.  To me however, the outside of the place was very strange looking.  It had a look of a big warehouse without windows that said AMC on the side.  I only saw it from one angle on the way home heading North on 71, so I could be wrong.  It just really lacks an urban quality.  That may not be the goal for the center however. 

I-471?

I-471?

 

If that's for me, I don't know.  I just followed the bridge across the river knowing that's where I had to go. 

If that bridge was yellow, it was I-471.

Pretty sure it was yellow. 

Windows would help throughout some parts of the building, on the majority of that I'm not sure how that would work out considering there's a movie theatre involved. Think about a Showcase Cinemas or a standalone AMC, how many windows are in the building besides the front?

"F*cking thing sucks" - Bill O'Reilly

Actually, I kind of like that side of NOTL.  As gotribe pointed out, it looks like a warehouse, which seems appropriate for a building right on the river.  Obviously, NOTL looks like new construction, but it doesn't seem out of place for that reason.  Real windows might be a nice touch, not fake ones with the silouttes of people partying that they have on the other side. 

"F*cking thing sucks" - Bill O'Reilly

 

 

Sea world Kentucky would be nice.. ;) If you're going to dream dream big.

Hollister closing at Levee

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080724/NEWS0103/307040052

 

The better question is what isn't closing at the Levee these days?

^ That's not fair. It's one of many that are closing around the country.

Actually, that space would be great for a casual restaurant like a Skyline or an Izzy's.  A late night Skyline would do amazing business on the weekends when the 11pm movies let out.

^ That's not fair. It's one of many that are closing around the country.

 

I think it is fair...they are probably only closing down their under-performing stores.  I haven't heard an announcement of the other Hollister's around the region closing.  With that said, this is the most centrally located one and it makes you wonder if the center city either can not support this type of retail...or what I suspect is that the center city didn't support this to the level it can because of a poor location.  Urban Outfitters has been operating their location in Clifton Heights for some time now, and American Apparel just opened down the street from there.

^^ Despite what the article says, I doubt it would be closing if it was raking in cash. And the point of my comment was that many things are closing around the Levee, like Tropicana and Pacific Moon

 

^ Good call. I'm all for late night skylines anywhere I can find em

If the aquarium closes then you would be on to something. Business close EVERY where and new ones takes its place. Look at the Towne Center. There are MANY business that close there. And then new ones move in. Tropicana closed because it was being sued. That's not NOTL fault.

 

Anyone know the vacancy rate at NOTL?

I know all of the second floor retail left several years back and it now houses offices.  The first fllor is gradually emptying out.  A space by Barnes and Noble was never occupied.  This is not the success they had hoped no matter how you spin it. 

It will never survive as a mall alone, there's no "destination" store.  People watching movies or at the Aquarium don't want to shop.  They need to fill the office space, bring in restaurants that office workers will use, and move ahead with the hotel & condo element!

Tropicana closed because it was being sued. That's not NOTL fault.

 

While the lawsuit did bring about Tropicana's closure, Jeff Ruby said he would not fight it because he was just breaking even at that location.

^ Also, I suspect he preferred to focus on Bootsy Ruby's rather than on rebranding Tropicana.  He should have never called it that in the first place.  As soon as it opened, I knew it was destined for a lawsuit.  I don't know how it could have been only breaking even though, as it was always packed.

 

Regarding Pacific Moon, that's just a terrible spot for a restaurant.  It feels totally disconnected from the rest of the complex and it is very easy for passerbys to overlook.  Maybe this could have been remedied with an additional entrance inside NOTL, but that space seems much better suited to a nice office.

 

I totally agree with taestell.  They need to hurry with that hotel, and think about apartments or condos as well.

If the aquarium closes then you would be on to something. Business close EVERY where and new ones takes its place. Look at the Towne Center. There are MANY business that close there. And then new ones move in. Tropicana closed because it was being sued. That's not NOTL fault.

 

But you know what, if it was downtown Cincinnati the news spin would be "Another downtown business closed, the $ spent on Fountain Square wasn't worth it, downtown is dead, Cincinnati can't do anything right, etc..."

 

I don't like anything to fail, especially in the urban core, but a little part of me feels vindicated that the Levee is having problems.  But I'm not holding my breath for the naysayers to come out of the woodwork and scream that the Levee is a waste of money or the the city of Newport is screwed up.  Just a little equality and evenhandedness would be nice.

 

Businesses close all the time, and most of the time it has nothing to do with where they're at, but how they're run.  Since the press won't take the time to investigate, they go with the lazy half assed story.

NOTL has no place in a discussion of urban economics, plain and simple.  What happens there is more indicative of nationwide mall/lifestyle performance rather than true urban markets.  It is a suburban blueprint slapped on a once-urban and locally forgotten area.

Can we discuss the failures of Tower Place Mall?

The failures of Tower Place have been discussed in the local media quite often.  It has been presented as a sign that downtown was dead.  I don't think we need to discuss it anymore. 

 

NOTL  has never been presented in the same light by media.  It has had numerous closings and is almost as emtpy as tower place when you leave out AMC and the aquarium.  Yet the media proclaims it to be the shopping, entertainment, dining mecca of the region to this day.

 

I rememeber when both places were filled with stores and only a couple store fronts empty.

 

 

 

 

 

The better question is what isn't closing at the Levee these days?

 

As people have mentioned, the levee has no shopping anchor. Without a department store anchor, virtually 100% of the mall retail will eventually close (frankly, it looks like they are almost there).

 

But that's not any indictment of the levee specifically. The failure of mall retail has been an almost universal problem for urban "festival marketplaces" around the country. Malls survive on rich women shoppers. Festival marketplaces draw families and young people on dates. The concept was just a big demographic hiccup.

 

They open - usually on the waterfront of a downtown - with a few touristy destinations, restaurants, and a complement of mall retail. Almost invariably, the mall stores struggle and die, and they are slowly replaced with more restaurants and entertainment venues.

 

This is clearly the Levee's fate with the current structure. But it's not really Newport's fault. It's a nation-wide failure, because the concept was bad.

The better question is what isn't closing at the Levee these days?

 

This is clearly the Levee's fate with the current structure. But it's not really Newport's fault. It's a nation-wide failure, because the concept was bad.

 

I always think of the Continent when this concept comes up. If it didn't work back then, it probably won't work today.

Can we discuss the failures of Tower Place Mall?

 

I'll go out on a limb and say that Tower Place Mall actually has a better occupancy rate for its retail space than NOTL.  While Tower Place Mall sucks some tenants (i.e. Gap and a couple others there) were asked to leave for more attractive restaurant uses near FS.  The food court seems to do very well...and you still have the anchor tenants (connected via skywalk) like Macy's and Saks Fifth Avenue.

 

The problem with Tower Place Mall is that there is very little space and it has an awkward layout.  Many of the spaces are also not very well-suited for the space/layout that many mall type tenants desire.  You've still got a Brentano's (bookstore), TJ Maxx, FYE Music, Foot Locker, Victoria's Secret, Dakota Watch Co., Radio Shack, Hunt Club Clothiers, and Nine West...just to name a few.

Personally, I think most people just don't want to pay to park when they go shopping.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Tower Place do some decent business if Cincy can attract people to move into the CBD. 

 

NOTL just shouldn't be a shopping mall.  The occasional store like Barnes & Noble is fine, but for the most part they should focus on getting more bars, restaurants, and attractions like the Aquarium and AMC.

NOTL and Tower Place both suffer from the same problem. Urban spaces should have its retail facing the street. Interior malls are doomed to failure in urban environment (outside of a place like the Magnificent Mile in Chicago). They also take away from street traffic. I say good riddance to both. I'll also second that NOTL really is a late version of the festival marketplaces. They all start strong and eventually need lots of tax dollars to stay active. Toledo is voting again to fund COSI in its old festival marketplace. Norfolk's is losing money hand over fist.

Personally, I think most people just don't want to pay to park when they go shopping.

 

It's true! People don't realize that they are paying more to park when stores are out in BFE because they use more gas getting there.

 

I feel that once the reversal of more people moving to the basin REALLY takes hold......and I mean the affordable places, .. not the people who buy for investment or a 2nd home in the big city highrises, but the true middle class residents (OTR) who will do most of their shopping Downtown, NOTL, Tower Place, and or The Banks eventually.   

 

Will NOTL have to stray from it's original design? 

 

Sure, they can't cater to the suburban customer like they have tried to, but it will not fail in the sense that some on this board almost sound like they WISH it would.  Some of you guys sound as if you would party like no other to see it boarded up.    Ultimately I think the success of NOTL will hinge on how much of the population BOTH SIDES OF THE RIVER can bring back over the remainder and beginning of the next decade.    The land is just too valuable and I don't see that decreasing anytime soon!    They will adapt!    Into what, I haven't got a clue, but they will.

Sure if the population increased enough to warrant large entertainment districts at both The Banks and NOTL then yes it will do fine.  Retail isn't going to succeed there and I bet if you see the population continue to rise, in/around Newport's riverfront, you'll see retailer popping up at street-level locations or within larger/new developments (see Manhattan Harbour, Waters Edge, etc).

 

The space is awfully limited for any kind of major office users (and lacks windows).  So that means it's entertainment or bust...and I really just don't see both Gameworks and an ESPN Zone surviving (winner goes to the better location - ESPN Zone).  If NOTL losses its anchors then what is to keep places like Dewey's, Funny Bone, and Jefferson Hall around an unfilled mall setting?

 

It should also be noted that I'm not cheering for failure...just predicting it.

NOTL and Tower Place both suffer from the same problem. Urban spaces should have its retail facing the street. Interior malls are doomed to failure in urban environment (outside of a place like the Magnificent Mile in Chicago). They also take away from street traffic. I say good riddance to both. I'll also second that NOTL really is a late version of the festival marketplaces. They all start strong and eventually need lots of tax dollars to stay active. Toledo is voting again to fund COSI in its old festival marketplace. Norfolk's is losing money hand over fist.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Lexington built it's Festival Market (that really was the name) patterned after Balitmore's successful waterfront project. Thing was, it was nothing more than an indoor mall with no major exterior features -- like water -- to draw people in. There were few exterior entrances.

 

As much as I like NOTL, it was designed to be a hybrid indoor-mall sans anchor(s) and a lifestyle center. Not to say the latter has completely failed -- given the success of the all-outdoor Pullman Square in Huntington -- but it has features that make NOTL relatively unsuccessful in its initial development compared to Pullman.

 

Indoor malls are not the rage anymore, and NOTL was built on the decline of indoor malls in the United States. It has no major anchor. There are few exterior entrances or storefronts to attract a lively streetscape. There is no residential component to attract a non-lunch/dinner crowd.

Are the new condos in Dayton (KY) and beyond in anyway connected to NOTL? Everything along the river in KY seems to be individual islands.

They're not connected and that's exactly my point.  Each new project, in Nky (aside from Covington), seems to be an island onto itself.  They turn their back on the neighborhoods that surround them and create a self-enclosed community to cater to a baby-boomer buyer base.

Would this be perhaps because of the floodwall?

^^ Covington's new development (though not as bad) is still tricky to maneuver through as a pedestrian

 

^ Yeah, the floodwall makes things harder, but there seems to be a lack of effort to create even a decent walkway to connect things

You can think the Army Corps of Engineers for that.

 

They make it incredibly difficult to install a sidewalk at the top of a levee, for instance. We've been pushing for years to have a path created on top of some floodwalls in Huntington, but the ACoE is pretty reluctant on that. Modifying them is even more difficult, as well as building connectors between. Which often explains why so many developments are separated by a physical and psychological barrier.

Thanks, that was informative

An acquaintance of mine works for Abercrombie & Fitch home office. When I asked him about the Hollister closing at Newport, all he would say was something along the lines of "in this case it seems as though the store may be relocated to somewhere bigger and better, because Hollister has shown to be a very successful brand in that market"

 

Basically it's another nail in the coffin for Newport.

 

I wonder if A&F is scouting the Banks for retail??? it IS an Ohio company, after all....

I wonder if they could go the other direction into some of the development further south in Newport.

Basically it's another nail in the coffin for Newport.

 

Isn't this being a little over-dramatic?  Thank God it wasn't Hot Topic that closed!  Seriously, if Barnes & Noble closes, THAT will be a big deal.  Hollister isn't a huge loss.

 

I wonder if A&F is scouting the Banks for retail??? it IS an Ohio company, after all....

 

Doubtful.  If this is the case, why would they close now?  If they're actually moving, it would likely be to something already operating like Rookwood Commons or Crestview Hills Town Center (assuming those places don't already have a Hollister) so that they can start making money asap.

>I don't know how it could have been only breaking even though, as it was always packed.

 

Well if a place has $1 million in revenues and makes $100,000 annually it's not making money.  The coorporate structure is just way too complicated to justify the hassle of a location that only supports 1 or 2 office workers at the home office.  A corporation where one location is doing $10 million in annual business and another doing $1 million is very difficult to administer because a regional manager will always favor the higher-performing venue and the weakest one will get less attention.  That location's manager will be left to live an agonizing existance. 

 

Also, as for 24-hour places, it's almost impossible to staff a 24-hour operation, the amount of paperwork is ridiculous, and it's very tough to get the paperwork done daily and weekly when a place is perpetually understaffed and undertrained, as is the case in any place like that.  I managed a place for about 7 weeks before I got fired that did about $220,000 annual and we could have easily gotten it close to $300,000 by simply staying open a bit later, but they would have had to hire a second manager, and there goes your profitability, because you just can't walk out of a place at 5am as manager and be expected to be back there at 8am 7 days a week, and those places abuse the hell out of their managers.     

 

NOTL is a terrible piece of design in every way, except for having an underground garage and the cool use of the L&N's approach arches, although that hasn't stopped area property owners from tearing down homes and businesses for surface parking.  It looks cheap, it has no real focus or obvious front door (architects these days are allergic to symmetry and obvious front doors), and as mentioned previously it's an island.  They needlessly tore down everything east of the bridge approach for surface parking and the Taylor-Southgate Bridge's approach makes things awkward on the west side.     

 

What ever happen to the plan to put retail on the bridges it's self?

I think the Banks can and should look at NOTL on what not to do ... Personally, I feel they need to stick with the Rookwood Commons approach. Obviously, there wouldn't be a sea of parking in the middle due to the underground garage.

I'll ask again: Does anybody have this company's P&L. How do we know NOTL doesn't make money? Based on newspaper articles or somebody who knows somebody? I'm a financial analyst by trade so I'd like to get ahold of their financials and see for myself. Also, does the fact that traditional retail fares poorly mean that the entire concept fails?

 

I swear, the NKY bias and elitism on this board is suffocating sometimes. Something will be in Tropicana and Pacific Moon sooner than later. Restaurants/bars have always done a good job regenerating themselves at NOTL, and let me remind people, that venues like that close and reopen regularly. People always go for the 'hot new thing' and turnover is not indicative of failure.

 

As far as NKY being isolated, I regularly walk from Covington to Bellevue and have no problem. I do agree that the management is slow to react at NOTL. As many have pointed out something like a bowling alley and/or upscale pool hall would fit quite nicely. Also if the hotel plan goes through I think you'll see some of the vacancy disappear.

 

Comparing The Banks and NOTL is pointless. They should compliment each other nicely.  Everybody on here can keep b#&$-ing and moaning about how the whole concept 'offends' them, meanwhile I'm going to see The Dark Knight, eat at Deweys with my wife, and meet friends at J Hall tonight.

 

I'll let everyone know if I see anybody crying about the Levee's immenent demise while I'm down there.

 

There have been a number of articles over the years discussing the fact that the owners were unable to make payments to the city of Newport because it wasn't hitting minimum targets. It has been sold for very little profit in the last couple years as well, which is more good evidence it isn't raking it in.

^That was Covington on the landing. I never heard that about NOTL

I think we should all just let time tell us who is right about the Levee.  Either they will fill the empty store fronts or the storefronts will remain empty and NOTL will face a decline.  Let's just wait and see.