Posted June 29, 200816 yr Read the following article in its entirety before passing judgment. The Self-Inflicted Economic Death of Ohio By CHESTER E. FINN JR. June 28, 2008; Page A9 Wall Street Journal Once known as the Mother of Presidents, Ohio is now getting poorer, older and dumber – and making all the wrong moves to reverse the situation. And that may actually be a plus for Barack Obama. His party is finding that lofty, vague promises of change combined with high-spending, high-tax, welfare state-ish policies are a political winner in the state. How else to explain why Gov. Ted Strickland's approval ratings are in the mid-50s or why Democrats may even win control of the state House for the first time in 14 years? Mr. Finn, a native of Dayton, Ohio, is president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute.
June 29, 200816 yr But the distance to be covered is vast. Ohio ranks 41st in the percentage of adults with bachelor's degrees. Though it has many fine colleges, their young graduates don't stick around. They head for the coasts or for "happening places" in between, none of which (with the partial exception of Columbus) happens to be in the Buckeye State. If this guy done his homework i wonder what the ranks are with the number of residences with associates and master degrees rank. I don't have a bachelor's degree and im doing quite well.
June 29, 200816 yr ^What? Actually doing real research from various perspectives to find an actual answer rather than only printing things that help to further your own point of view?!? Now that's just crazy. :roll: The guy does make some valid points though.
June 29, 200816 yr I have to agree, he does make some good points. Honestly, I've found myself in the last few years really questioning whether to stay or go. I've made the choice to remain at this point, but it is a little frustrating at times watching a state with all of our resources just limping along like Ohio is.
June 30, 200816 yr As someone graduating college soon in Cincinnati, I'm debating whether to try to stay here or go somewhere else. A lot of projects here are starting to get done (The Banks, Streetcar, etc.), but if these things get pushed back, why shouldn't I go somewhere where things like this are getting done? I frequently support local businesses, shop at Findlay Market, go downtown for entertainment, etc. But there's so much resistance and delay any time there's a new "urban" project here. The article also says that Ohioans generally support any generic promise of "change" from politicians. Ohioans just want something to get them out of this economic downturn. But if Cincinnatians vote down things like light rail, don't support downtown development, and even badmouth projects like the Streetcar, the Banks, the Freedom Center, how can they expect "knowledge workers" to stick around? How can you not realize that downtown areas are what bring in companies that hire these type of workers?
June 30, 200816 yr Poorer older and especially dumber (or more ignorant) certainly does sum- up Dayton. People dont really value education in this state, or think its important for their kids to go to college, or that its something worthwhile to pay for. This was pretty suprising to me as I expected a different attitude from an ostensibly urbanized industrial state. Though it has many fine colleges, their young graduates don't stick around. They head for the coasts or for "happening places" in between ...in other words, places that have jobs for college grads, places like Chicago and Atlanta, perhaps. Sort of an example of the winner-take-all economy, where people with get-up-and-go have got up and went where the best job opportunities are.
June 30, 200816 yr I can pass on the political bias in that article, but see some thruths too. Sometimes I feel like the area is covered in a wet blanket. Compared to many other places people seem closed to different people, ideas,innovation, and change. Lots of times I try not think about it or focus on the positive, but other times it is quite oppressive and hard to ignore.
June 30, 200816 yr ....I can pass on the political bias in that article The author and the think tank are based in Dayton, which seems to be replacing Cincinnati as a center for conservative thinking here in Ohio (Sam Staley is a another conservative policy expert based in this area). If one follows local blogs and comments to the newspaper website one can see that subtext and spin.
June 30, 200816 yr This sounds like it was written by an Ohio native who hasn't been in Ohio in years. He makes a lot of criticisms that seem to be coincidentally valid, then tries to back them up with bad information. For example, he said Ohio has been "deindustrializing for ages." Well, yes and no. Ohio is still a heavily industrialized state, but -- as is the case nationally -- that industrial production is done by fewer and fewer people. We're losing manufacturing jobs more than we're losing industry. He also says, "The government sector is still growing, of course, abetted by rising taxes on what's left of the private economy." Actually, state government is cutting jobs left and right, in large part because of major tax reductions a few years ago -- reductions that Strickland has pledged to abide by. And the comment about no lively Ohio downtowns in the evening was silly, too. How many lively downtowns are there in the whole country? Also, he said Gov. Strickland "has yet to unveil an education-reform strategy a full two years into his term." Let's see: This is the end of June, which means Strickland has been in office 18 months, which is less than two years. Maybe I'm nitpicking. Strickland could be doing more on education policy. But this Finn guy doesn't do much for his credibility when he makes such a stupid little mistake. Of course, his bias is in education issues. Fordham Institute he represents is a big backer of charter schools in Ohio. Charter schools are not necessarily a bad thing, but what Ohio has done with them IS a bad thing: throw the door open wide, with the idea that charters are a silver bullet. They're not. By throwing the door open wide without proper state oversight, too many of the charters have been poorly managed, some of them fly-by-night, with weak finances and poor student performances. Finn also complains that urban public schools in Ohio continue to operate on a shoestring as they keep trying to pass levies that hurt strapped taxpayers. He neglects to mention that suburban and small-town districts have at least as much trouble passing levies, or that the Republicans who controlled state government for 16 years basically ignored several Supreme Court rulings that told the state to fundamentally restructure school funding in Ohio. Finn also seems to criticize Strickland for having high approval ratings, blaming the teachers unions. Gee, I wasn't aware that the teachers unions had that much control over the thought processes of the voting public. On the other hand, Finn is right that Ohio needs to focus on education and on keeping bright young people in the state and supporting the arts, etc., etc., etc. It just that that message gets lost in the blather of misinformation.
June 30, 200816 yr While there are some valid points - and I think we all agree that our gov't leaders move a bit slow when it comes to urban renewal - this article is politically motivated. Of course Mr. Finn wants to attack Strickland's scorecard, especially when it comes to education. The Fordham Institute/Foundation is Ohio's #1 proponent of charter schools.
June 30, 200816 yr ... Yes, the man is not a liberal and he sees the public school system as grossly inadequate (and mismanaged by politically motivated unions) and supports charter schools. But does that mean his opinions are not worth considering? Sometimes the hard facts come from the most overlooked places. ... Sometimes they do, but this author was just stringing together disconnected facts to support a right wing thesis. He hates teachers unions; yeah, I get that. Undermining public education is a good way to break a Democratic Party power base. The guy is insulting. The reason that Ohioans are undereducated is that in our manufacturing economy, it was not necessary to have higher education to do manufacturing work. I know people who left high school to start working in a factory because there was no point staying in high school. They would end up in the same job anyway. Has Mr. Wall Street Journal even considered that some Ohioans quit school because their families had insufficient funds to support them? My mother did not drop out of school and pass on college because she wanted to be a waitress. She had to.
June 30, 200816 yr ^ Ok. What about tax policy? How did we get here? What should we do? You won't learn any of that from Finn's "thesis". What is your take on the situation? What are we supposed to change? Should we do what Michigan did?
June 30, 200816 yr I have to admit that it seems like our leaders are all about talk and when there is action it's a baby step. ODOT, even with Democratic leadership is still poised to waste $1 billion dollars on "fixing" the split in Downtown Columbus (that's two complete light rail lines or a sizeable streetcar system that serves and promotes development in Downtown, German Village, Merion Village, Short North, King-Lincoln, Olde Towne East, Driving Park, Bexley, Franklinton, Hilltop, Victorian Village, Italian Village, Grandview, OSU, Milo-Grogan and other smaller neighborhoods in between) and $30 million on a bridge that will be one block away from the Main St bridge when a city official even said the current Town St bridge sees little traffic and is further away from the Main St bridge than the proposed replacement. What real changes have been made to ODOT's projects since Democrats came into power? Aside from talk about rail, I'm seeing nothing. The state government has done nothing to end sprawl subsidies and even out the playing field for urban places. Citywide: *Columbus has leaders that want change but are being held back by numerous interests. We have several streets that are very bikeable in their current state, but going from neighborhood to neighborhood there are times when you have only a couple options, none too bike friendly, especially when going in or out of Downtown thanks to the surrounding highways and then you have too many streets that are 35MPH and on residential streets no less. There's talk about bike lanes and bike paths which both serve to remove bikes from the streets and the former presents several additional ways to getting hit by a car instead of just making streets slower and safer for bikes and people. Pedestrians getting hit, especially by turning cars, are a problem here and it's no wonder when there are 35MPH one-ways where cars regularly go faster. But then it's still all about cars being able to go fast, not creating a street that feels safe and could become active again. I've suggested simply changing the traffic pattern of lights Downtown to encourage more stop and go traffic which makes it safer for cyclists and pedestrians among other things, but the transportation division isn't going to get back to me in detail until mid-July. Keep in mind that they're also the ones responsible for having both Neil and 3rd Ave be 35MPH in the first place and are the reason why the new 25MPH speed limit on both have signs reading "temporary", because the transportation division wants them to be 35MPH again. Both streets are lined with homes, smack dab in the middle of residential areas. Funny thing is, you'd never see either on a residential street in a sprawling suburb where it's always 25MPH, but they'll stick it to you if you live in city. I guess for making this lifestyle choice I deserve to have my chances of being maimed or killed by a car increased. *Urban Renewal is still going strong. Two old commercial buildings on Long east of Downtown are now empty grass lots with weeds. What a great way to encourage new businesses on that corridor. Then the Firestone mansion came down earlier this year even though I informed the Columbus Foundation about seeking corporate sponsorship, but they felt that wasn't their responsibility to go that route and it was "too late" anyway. OSU's board of trustees is going to demolish two historic buildings this summer, one for a parking lot and another for greenspace and most students don't care. I was able to gather over 50 signatures by myself against demolition, but heard nothing back from the Columbus Landmarks Foundation about what they were doing to help save these structures. Apparently, they're not doing a thing about it. *For mass-transit, COTA has not made two basic changes: reduction of extraneous stops and revamping of the current routes. The streetcars are in limbo and I wouldn't be surprised to see this linger on for years. We're not going to have decent mass transit until my hair turns gray (if I don't lose it all first). Do I want to wait that long just for our system to reach mediocrity? *The city subsidizes sprawl within city limits which is already heavily subsidized as many here know. There is no effort to streamline urban brown-field development or to encourage that over green-field development, nor is there anything to mandate that say, 50% of redevelopment of sprawl within city borders must be urban. Over on the edge of Olde Towne East near Bexley there is slated to be "The Shoppes at Nelson" which is just some suburban strip mall. Poor, (once) urban neighborhoods continue to have sprawl dumped on them and it's as though the city wants to keep them poor by making them drive (these streets are not bike-friendly in the least). To summarize, I have not seen indications that some fundamental changes are going to be made anytime soon. This city offers a lot more than people would think and that's great, but I want to see real improvements and I'm just not seeing any reason to think they'll happen. All of this is just going to hurt us economically, but of course the WSJ doesn't even mention such basic, crucial factors as to why we are where we are right now economically.
June 30, 200816 yr Ohio ranks 41st in the percentage of adults with bachelor's degrees. 1. The data is from 2002. 2. It is only those 25 and older. 3. As mentioned, it doesn't include AA,AS degrees. http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/Ranking/2002/R02T040.htm
June 30, 200816 yr In my tirade, I was not trying to focus on political parties, but on the factual errors and the flaws in Finn's arguments. Because he was wrong on so many things, I have to question his statements about local tax burden. Was that ranking before or after the Commerical Activity Tax enacted a few years ago? What are the states with a higher tax burden than Ohio? Do they have better economies or worse? I don't buy the argument that private-sector investments are so completely linked to taxes. Look at Minnesota -- a high-tax state that is pointed to as a model for rust-belt states to follow: cool cities, lots of things to do, lots of educational opportunities, etc.
June 30, 200816 yr ^ Ok. What about tax policy? How did we get here? What should we do? You won't learn any of that from Finn's "thesis". What is your take on the situation? What are we supposed to change? Should we do what Michigan did? I was hoping for a little more than this, ForTheLoveOFDayton http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16579.msg301444.html#msg301444 Ohio has: A tax structure based on when we had high manufacturing employment An aging population putting people into nursing homes Other expanded Medicaid costs beyond nursing homes A problematic business inventory tax An inefficient system of >600 local governments Increased educational spending to deal with suit by Bill Phyllis Rising infrastructure costs What's the solution? ... I am not going to click on opinionsjournal to find if they mentioned it, but Michigan raised income and sales taxes as a FAIRER way of funding schools than property tax. Michigan did accomplish lower property taxes. Most Ohioans I know want lower property taxes, too.
June 30, 200816 yr I am not going to click on opinionsjournal to find if they mentioned it, but Michigan raised income and sales taxes as a FAIRER way of funding schools than property tax. I think the school funding argument is pretty weak. It doesn't take much money to educate a child, but it takes an awful lot to replace the role of families/absentee parents with legions of bureaucrats and teachers unions." What is the goal of school funding? To educate children, right? How far does "fairer" ways of funding schools help achieve that end? And the tax increase in MI wasn't just about the schools..... "replace the role of families/absentee parents with legions of bureaucrats and teachers unions." Sorry, don't follow "Fairer" funding would be to have those with more income pay more for the schools. It is called "progressive taxation". Cannot get that with a system based on property taxes. "Unfair" is to have property taxes that were higher than their mortgage payments force senior pensioners to sell their homes because they cannot afford the property taxes. At least, that's the theory.
June 30, 200816 yr "Fairer" funding would be to have those with more income pay more for the schools. It is called "progressive taxation". Cannot get that with a system based on property taxes. Earlier, you seemed to criticize the school-funding suit: "Increased educational spending to deal with suit by Bill Phyllis" But it was that suit that led the Supreme Court to rule that Ohio's school-funding system -- based on property taxes -- was unconstitutional. Our leaders have been ignoring those rulings for at least 10 years.
June 30, 200816 yr I am not going to click on opinionsjournal to find if they mentioned it, but Michigan raised income and sales taxes as a FAIRER way of funding schools than property tax. I think the school funding argument is pretty weak. It doesn't take much money to educate a child, but it takes an awful lot to replace the role of families/absentee parents with legions of bureaucrats and teachers unions." What is the goal of school funding? To educate children, right? How far does "fairer" ways of funding schools help achieve that end? And the tax increase in MI wasn't just about the schools..... "replace the role of families/absentee parents with legions of bureaucrats and teachers unions." Sorry, don't follow Go into an urban public school sometime, look at the wasted money in all types of districts. Investigate what true education is and the mediocrity factories that we call public schools and you'll follow quite easily. I am skeptical. Cite something. We spend about $10 Billion/year on Ohio schools. How much can we cut? How will our tax rates change?
June 30, 200816 yr "Fairer" funding would be to have those with more income pay more for the schools. It is called "progressive taxation". Cannot get that with a system based on property taxes. Earlier, you seemed to criticize the school-funding suit: "Increased educational spending to deal with suit by Bill Phyllis" But it was that suit that led the Supreme Court to rule that Ohio's school-funding system -- based on property taxes -- was unconstitutional. Our leaders have been ignoring those rulings for at least 10 years. I am not critical of the suit by Bill Phyllis & company. I was just citing reasons for Ohio's rising spending. There are discrete details that explain Ohio's fiscal situation. However, to the credit of the GOP legislature and governors Taft and Voinovich, Ohio government did make a few quantum increases in funding to underresourced urban and poor rural school systems as to try to end the suit. New schools were built in many poor districts in Ohio, IIRC. (The property tax inequity problem is still out there, though.) However, author Finn of the opinionjournal (=Wall Street Journal) would, presumably, have Ohio withdraw that quantum increase in funding for the poor kids. "Children of lesser Gods", I suppose.
June 30, 200816 yr But if Cincinnatians vote down things like light rail, don't support downtown development, and even badmouth projects like the Streetcar, the Banks, the Freedom Center, how can they expect "knowledge workers" to stick around? The economic developoment of the region depends on projects that actually make long-term financial sense and can eventually sustain themselves. The Freedom Center is arguably none of the above. While light rail, the banks, etc. are all fine ideas, the freedom center in my opinion is a perfect example of political pandering and taxpayer fleecing.
June 30, 200816 yr "Gov. Strickland, for one, has yet to unveil an education-reform strategy a full two years into his term, but has been inviting education interest groups to briefings and workshops filled with vague, psychobabbling talk of creativity and innovation." Repeal H.B. 920, This lets schools cost increase with property values without going back to the voters, schools spend millions trying to pass / renew levies... Figure out what it costs to educate a student in Ohio and pay that, not pay all the bills and divide what is left over by the number of students and pay schools that number...This is why school funding is illegal, because individual communities have to make up that cost and it is unfair because some communities can provide the money and other cannot... Reform ligation against schools, it costs schools millions upon millions a year on frivolous law suits... Reform special education in schools, it is by far one of the most expensive part of a schools budget (this has more to do with NCLB, but a lot can be done on the state level) Have districts merge purchasing with other districts and buy in bulk... Make students take the bus, transportation costs are another large portion of the schools budget...If they have to provide it, then make the students use it...Buses at the higher levels are generally near empty when running their routs... Go into an urban public school sometime, look at the wasted money in all types of districts. Investigate what true education is and the mediocrity factories that we call public schools and you'll follow quite easily. The higher cost in urban districts is due to the larger population of "special education" students and the higher need for remedial education...It is just like rehabbing a building...The worse condition it is in, the more little things you need to do to modernize it...
June 30, 200816 yr Repeal H.B. 920, ... Figure out what it costs to educate a student in Ohio and pay that, not pay all the bills and divide what is left over by the number of students and pay schools that number...This is why school funding is illegal, because individual communities have to make up that cost and it is fair because some communities can provide the money and other cannot... Reform ligation against schools, it costs schools millions upon millions a year on frivolous law suits... Reform special education in schools, it is by far one of the most expensive part of a schools budget (this has more to do with NCLB, but a lot can be done on the state level) Have districts merge purchasing with other districts and buy in bulk... Make students take the bus, ... ... The higher cost in urban districts is due to the larger population of "special education" students and the higher need for remedial education... Thank you for your comments
June 30, 200816 yr To take it to the local level, Dayton Public Schools wastes so much money and gassing up school buses instead of promoting system-wide neighborhood schools. http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/06/20/ddn062108busroutes.html If DPS had neighborhood schools, children could walk to school like I did from K-12. That's true of basically all school systems. Grandview is the only neighborhood here that I know of that has no bus system and they seem to be doing very well. There are plenty of safe streets for walking or biking. Then you go to a poorer school like the one on East Broad (still open?) and what kid is going to feel safe crossing 7 lanes of traffic? They have to cross a highway just to go to school, not to mention that schools generally spend more or the same amount on buses as they do for actually educating students. I'll have to double-check that, but I believe that statement is correct. Smaller schools have also time and again shown to be much better than large schools. Sometimes issues aren't quite as complicated as we like to think they are, since just doing these two steps would make big changes and it doesn't take much research to back that up.
June 30, 200816 yr If time and money wasn't wasted on unruly, undisciplined kids or feeding hungry children because of their absentee parents, Ohio students might actually learn instead of being scuttled through... What do we do with the unruly kids and the hungry kids then?
June 30, 200816 yr I am not critical of the suit by Bill Phyllis & company. I was just citing reasons for Ohio's rising spending. There are discrete details that explain Ohio's fiscal situation. However, to the credit of the GOP legislature and governors Taft and Voinovich, Ohio government did make a few quantum increases in funding to underresourced urban and poor rural school systems as to try to end the suit. New schools were built in many poor districts in Ohio, IIRC. (The property tax inequity problem is still out there, though.) Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for my misunderstanding. On the other hand, quantum increases in school funding is not what the Supreme Court said. Those increases did not change the fundamental school-funding structure. And as for the new schools built, that was a boondoggle. The School Facilities Commission has a whole system biased against renovation and in favor of new construction, with rules that hide the true, higher cost of construction and artifically inflate the cost of renovation.
June 30, 200816 yr Figure out what it costs to educate a student in Ohio and pay that, not pay all the bills and divide what is left over by the number of students and pay schools that number...This is why school funding is illegal, because individual communities have to make up that cost and it is unfair because some communities can provide the money and other cannot... Figure out what it costs to educate WHICH student? The student from the well-to-do family who starts kindergarten well-prepared? Or the special-education student? Or the otherwise intelligent student with ADHD? Or the late bloomer? Or the student whose single parent is a drug addict? You can't figure out what it costs to educate a student because every student is different. It's going to vary from district to district, school to school.
July 1, 200816 yr If time and money wasn't wasted on unruly, undisciplined kids or feeding hungry children because of their absentee parents, Ohio students might actually learn instead of being scuttled through... What do we do with the unruly kids and the hungry kids then? build more prisons??
July 1, 200816 yr This isn't about placing blame on one party but on the ideology of taxing one's self into prosperity. An ideology which Bob Taft and his cronies were glad to follow...the point of the article is not to let the mistakes of the past repeat themselves. Yes, the man is not a liberal and he sees the public school system as grossly inadequate (and mismanaged by politically motivated unions) and supports charter schools. But does that mean his opinions are not worth considering? Sometimes the hard facts come from the most overlooked places. I wish we all could stop seeing things through the lenses of parties. Challenge your prejudice. To some degree this is political, but more within the GOP as one can't expect the Dems to buy-in to this given their constituency. One has to question why the GOP, when they held power (and they controlled the statehouse and the governors mansion since the early 1990s), didn't enact reforms like Right to Work or lower business taxes to make Ohio more business-friendly.
July 1, 200816 yr Boarding schools? in rare cases perhaps and for therapeutic rather than punitive purposes . In most cases though working really intensively with the kids and families at home costs less and will have better outcomes. Best: young people need to be taught you do not start a family until you are ready emotionally and financially. If the parent does not teach this, then than school and community need to send this message.
July 1, 200816 yr ^ the boarding school concept isnt mine. I recall WJ Wilson proposed that in "The Truley Disadvantaged". I should probably try to find that cite. But you bring up a good point, which is that teaching is (or could be) as much social work in some of these problem districts.
July 1, 200816 yr Figure out what it costs to educate WHICH student? Take an average per region (divide the state up)...It makes the current system (which isn't going to be fixed) more equitable and less dependent on local property taxes... Hardly due exclusively to the "special education" students. Nope, not exclusively, but it is part of the problem...There is no such thing as a "special education" magnet...There are schools with high special education (sped), for example, Springfield schools in the Cleveland/Akron metro area has the highest population of sped students at 12 percent and there per pupil spending is much higher than any of the accompanying school districts...It is expensive to hire teachers for 5-8 students and still have them use the generally ed teachers as well...Check the numbers, sped = higher costs of money for districts...This are just my ideas of curbing spending in schools for the tax payers...For what it is worth I am a teacher....
July 1, 200816 yr If time and money wasn't wasted on unruly, undisciplined kids or feeding hungry children because of their absentee parents, Ohio students might actually learn instead of being scuttled through... What do we do with the unruly kids and the hungry kids then? The correct question is "What do we do with the absentee parents?" That is a great question. Now it needs a great answer!
July 1, 200816 yr But all you've done is talk around the questions posed, not submitted an answer. Unless you're saying that the answer is "nothing, let the unruly kids run wild and the hungry kids starve." But I don't think you are saying that. I just don't know what you are saying.
July 1, 200816 yr Parallel discussion on the identical topic can be found at Dayton Most Metro....click here ...interesting to see how both threads evolved running off the same header.
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