9 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

There is no silver lining to this whatsoever. Yet another downtown company moving out of the city proper leads to less taxes, less vibrancy and even less business in the area. It doesn't matter whether they move to an inner ring suburb or exurb, the result is still the same. Downtown and Cleveland are in the state they are in because people and businesses left for the inner ring in the first place. I remember people on this forum were talking apartment conversions after Voss left the city. The place is still vacant. 

 

I get your point, but COVID absolutely decimated their downtown workforce. I work across the street - I've seen like 2-3 people come out of there when I'm on my lunch breaks and their cafeteria on the first floor has been empty save 1-2 people most days. I swear the county brought us back into the office just to subsidize Geis' parking garage and Heinens. Downtown work ain't what it used to be.

36 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

There is no silver lining to this whatsoever. Yet another downtown company moving out of the city proper leads to less taxes, less vibrancy and even less business in the area. It doesn't matter whether they move to an inner ring suburb or exurb, the result is still the same. Downtown and Cleveland are in the state they are in because people and businesses left for the inner ring in the first place. I remember people on this forum were talking apartment conversions after Voss left the city. The place is still vacant. 

I thought Marous was in the process of redeveloping the Voss property?  Am I  wrong about this?

Edited November 7, 20222 yr by Htsguy

Of course we want companies to stay downtown but there is definitely a shift happening... I would swap a mostly empty building that is totally closed off to the public and only has a few people in it from 9-5 M-F to a full building of residences with ground floor uses 24/7. Hopefully something like that happens here. Rose Building is beautiful but totally underutilized as is. 

22 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

There is no silver lining to this whatsoever. Yet another downtown company moving out of the city proper leads to less taxes, less vibrancy and even less business in the area. It doesn't matter whether they move to an inner ring suburb or exurb, the result is still the same. Downtown and Cleveland are in the state they are in because people and businesses left for the inner ring in the first place. I remember people on this forum were talking apartment conversions after Voss left the city. The place is still vacant. 

I respectfully disagree.  A company that stays in the metro area rather than moving out of state or elsewhere within the state is a win.  While not ideal, suburban employees go to shows, go to games, dine downtown, etc.  

Cleveland is no different than any other metro area whose companies are trying to balance their costs/work environment in a post-pandemic environment that is radically different than pre-pandemic.

NYC has 120 million square feet of unoccupied office space.  

We are in new times - I for one am happy to see a local company staying local

1 minute ago, mrclifton88 said:

Of course we want companies to stay downtown but there is definitely a shift happening... I would swap a mostly empty building that is totally closed off to the public and only has a few people in it from 9-5 M-F to a full building of residences with ground floor uses 24/7. Hopefully something like that happens here. Rose Building is beautiful but totally underutilized as is. 

I imagine that eventually this will turn residential.  We are running out of buildings to convert in the heart of the city, especially this extra attractive location.  The only thing that might hamper a conversion in the short term are the same economic factors which may contribute to a slow in the construction industry the next few years.  

2 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

I respectfully disagree.  A company that stays in the metro area rather than moving out of state or elsewhere within the state is a win.  While not ideal, suburban employees go to shows, go to games, dine downtown, etc.  

Cleveland is no different than any other metro area whose companies are trying to balance their costs/work environment in a post-pandemic environment that is radically different than pre-pandemic.

NYC has 120 million square feet of unoccupied office space.  

We are in new times - I for one am happy to see a local company staying local

So true.  They could have easily moved to a barren office park in the prairies of Richfield where a lot of vacant office space is calling.

42 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

I respectfully disagree.  A company that stays in the metro area rather than moving out of state or elsewhere within the state is a win.  While not ideal, suburban employees go to shows, go to games, dine downtown, etc.  

Cleveland is no different than any other metro area whose companies are trying to balance their costs/work environment in a post-pandemic environment that is radically different than pre-pandemic.

NYC has 120 million square feet of unoccupied office space.  

We are in new times - I for one am happy to see a local company staying local

Come on, there was no indication or possibility that Medical Mutual was looking to move out of the region. The continued suburbanization of people and now corporate offices is never a win. Downtown is already pretty a much ghost town as it is, this makes it worse. 

Do you think Cross Country moving into downtown from Brecksville will help?

17 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Do you think Cross Country moving into downtown from Brecksville will help?

Help what exactly? Their move won't make the corner of 9th and Prospect any more vibrant during daytime hours, they are too far away.

 

The income tax will help the city.

21 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Come on, there was no indication or possibility that Medical Mutual was looking to move out of the region. The continued suburbanization of people and now corporate offices is never a win. Downtown is already pretty a much ghost town as it is, this makes it worse. 

 

Yea, the fact is they sunk many tens of millions into the Brooklyn facility making it a state of the art office for their needs. They had planned on renovating the Rose building, but then Covid hit.

 

Now they need much less space and it is cheaper to consolidate in the state of the are facility with free parking then it is to renovate the 100 year old office building.

 

Had Covid not happened and the rise in work from home did not accelerate, this article would probably be speaking of a major renovation to Rose and a recommitment of the company to downtown. 

32 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

Help what exactly? Their move won't make the corner of 9th and Prospect any more vibrant during daytime hours, they are too far away.

 

The income tax will help the city.

My question was more to his general proposition that all of downtown was a ghost town.  Would these 400 or so employees help with that problem.  I know it is a drop in the bucket but it can't hurt.

 

As we know the referenced poster has a very positive attitude  when it comes to downtown (NOT) so I take most of what he states with a grain of salt.

 

By the way, I will be the first to admit that downtown is much more quite since the pandemic, but lets face it, this is the case nationwide at this point.  The New York Times just published an article discussing the state of downtowns all over and the reference "ghost town" was used often, including when describing places like Hartford, the Chicago Loop (although other parts of the city are doing fine) and sections of Seattle, among others.

Edited November 7, 20222 yr by Htsguy

54 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

My question was more to his general proposition that all of downtown was a ghost town.  Would these 400 or so employees help with that problem.  I know it is a drop in the bucket but it can't hurt.

 

As we know the referenced poster has a very positive attitude  when it comes to downtown (NOT) so I take most of what he states with a grain of salt.

 

By the way, I will be the first to admit that downtown is much more quite since the pandemic, but lets face it, this is the case nationwide at this point.  The New York Times just published an article discussing the state of downtowns all over and the reference "ghost town" was used often, including when describing places like Hartford, the Chicago Loop (although other parts of the city are doing fine) and sections of Seattle, among others.

I lived downtown for years and would have stayed if I didn't have to move out of state. So I don't see how me not having a cheery outlook on continued suburbanization means I have a negative attitude when it comes to downtown. Further vacancies downtown does nothing but make a vibrant and dense downtown and growing city more of a myth than a realistic goal. 

1 minute ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

I lived downtown for years and would have stayed if I didn't have to move out of state. So I don't see how me not having a cheery outlook on continued suburbanization means I have a negative attitude when it comes to downtown. Further vacancies downtown does nothing but make a vibrant and dense downtown and growing city more of a myth than a realistic goal. 

I certainly don't want to go off topic but you have to admit you are one of the least positive posters on the forum when it comes to downtown which is your right.  Everybody has their own opinions.  You just seem to go out of your way.  It definitely annoys me but I guess that is my problem.

2 hours ago, mrclifton88 said:

Of course we want companies to stay downtown but there is definitely a shift happening... I would swap a mostly empty building that is totally closed off to the public and only has a few people in it from 9-5 M-F to a full building of residences with ground floor uses 24/7. Hopefully something like that happens here. Rose Building is beautiful but totally underutilized as is. 

 

^ There's some silver lining perspective. I haven't heard any news of residential demand slowing down, so the evolution of downtown continues....maybe not in the way we want or remember, but it continues nonetheless.  

This is a significant loss for downtown because it will take a while for Cleveland backfill the loss. It will happen, but it sets progress back (especially in the new work from home times).  The same happens in other cities, but our region seems to just be moving parts around.  Brooklyn will be happy but for a vibrant core and region, the area needs organic growth and companies to relocate to Cleveland.  

We're looking at two problems here. Companies moving out of downtown to a suburban location is one thing but the real elephant in the room is WFH. That is a much bigger concern for downtowns across the country. Its been a struggle for decades for the average city to hang onto its downtown office workers but when America's flagship downtowns (New York, Chicago etc.) are losing too then we know downtowns are in perilous times.

 

Downtown can't just be a place to live. A vibrant downtown needs office workers, government workers, residential and a sports/entertainment component. WFH is is a huge problem for downtowns. It may be great for the bottom line (companies need less space). And at first glance it may appear to be a bonus for workers although l'm not sure about that. Our society already spends too much time alone with a screen and l doubt that is psychologically healthy.

3 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

I respectfully disagree.  A company that stays in the metro area rather than moving out of state or elsewhere within the state is a win.  While not ideal, suburban employees go to shows, go to games, dine downtown, etc.  

Cleveland is no different than any other metro area whose companies are trying to balance their costs/work environment in a post-pandemic environment that is radically different than pre-pandemic.

NYC has 120 million square feet of unoccupied office space.  

We are in new times - I for one am happy to see a local company staying local

Great observation.  When a company leaves the area and worse yet, the state, it does considerable harm to the area.  It takes the jobs with them.  Maybe the workers stay here--if they are fortunate enough to find suitable work.  Unless the jobs are replaced with expansion in existing businesses or new ones coming into the area, the available pool of potential jobs shrinks.  It will cause considerable harm wherever they live with reduced living space demand and tax revenue.  Down the road, potential future employers could consider the talent pool or lack of as part of their decision making process.

 

I have been faced with that situation and know many others who were in it as well.  It happens when your employer shuts down and move operations out of state.  I was lucky to find suitable employment and stay in the area.  It did take a while, but the thought of looking outside the area was starting to cross my mind.  

 

 

Medical Mutual HQ staff won’t return downtown

By Ken Prendergast / November 7, 2022

 

A spokesperson for health insurance industry giant Medical Medical confirmed that the company’s headquarters will leave downtown Cleveland in 2023. However most of their roughly 1,000 downtown office employees never returned from remote-working during the pandemic, leaving the historic Rose Building at East 9th Street and Prospect Avenue mostly empty over the past two-plus years. Today’s news has led to some wondering if the building could be converted to residential as with other old office buildings downtown.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/07/medical-mutual-hq-staff-wont-return-downtown/

Ken's article brings up a lot of points, one being the parking. Just spells out again how disastrous the effects downtown has felt from the over reliance of automobiles as transit, and the lack of leadership and foresight by the RTA to make suburban transit effective. I feel the frustration by McCormack but frankly, I doubt workers especially the younger ones honestly care that much about working downtown. Time and time and again, atleast in NEO, as long as you have free parking, no one cares where you're HQ is. I've had friends from college who used to live in Cleveland, now back in Independence after having kids. One of them works for Sherwin and can't be more ecstatic that the R&D is now going to Valor Acres. The guy is still in his 20s. This idea that millenials and now gen z want to work in the city proper with the urban environment just seems overblown when free parking comes up. 

2 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Ken's article brings up a lot of points, one being the parking. Just spells out again how disastrous the effects downtown has felt from the over reliance of automobiles as transit, and the lack of leadership and foresight by the RTA to make suburban transit effective. I feel the frustration by McCormack but frankly, I doubt workers especially the younger ones honestly care that much about working downtown. Time and time and again, atleast in NEO, as long as you have free parking, no one cares where you're HQ is. I've had friends from college who used to live in Cleveland, now back in Independence after having kids. One of them works for Sherwin and can't be more ecstatic that the R&D is now going to Valor Acres. The guy is still in his 20s. This idea that millenials and now gen z want to work in the city proper with the urban environment just seems overblown when free parking comes up. 

It seems like every chance that comes up, RTA has made it more difficult for suburban commuters to use mass transit to get downtown.  They have eliminated almost all park-n-ride service.  The old and unreliable rapid transit fleet is much too prone to breakdowns plus there are extended complete shutdowns of major sections or entire lines which discourage using the rapid transit lines to get to work.  Looking at the Brooklyn location for Medical Mutual, it doesn't appear that many of its workers will use RTA either.  It just proves that businesses know that RTA won't be a factor for commuting, be it downtown or suburbs.

16 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

One of my close friends sisters works for Medical of Mutual. They're pretty much running a skeleton staff at the Rose on a day to day. 

 

I want to post more on this at some other point in another thread, but as important as it is to retain businesses in the city, with the way municipal income tax functions it's far more imperative now to continue to build housing and create vibrant neighborhoods, now that office work is playing a diminished role with so many  people working from home. It therefore more important to tax people where they live than work. In many cases where they work is where they live, the home.  

 

Aren't there some court cases going on vis a vis cities taxing remote workers that live elsewhere?   Or were those resolved?

I could swear someone on here predicted this move months ago.

16 hours ago, Htsguy said:

A creative company like AG moving to a city like Westlake is still a mystery to me.  I am sure, of course, there we incentives, and the fact that  at least it was not a bland office park helped with the decision.  Still  I think a company like AG would be a perfect fit for some place like Ohio City.  They could have slide into an office component of the Intro development very easily, and I think they would have had many happy employees.  I wonder if that had been an option at the time they would have considered it.

 

People I know who work there have said that Cra....errrr....Crocker Park is the best of both worlds for them.  The amenities and vibrancy* of downtown, without traffic, paying for parking, and uncomfortable situations.

 

Didn't Brooklyn just lose a major employer?

 

*I think some here value "vibrancy" more than the general working public does.

 

 

 

 

A different question, why did AG build such an uninspiring building? Of course, I've never been inside so my apologies if I missed something essential. 

 

- D.O

10 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Ken's article brings up a lot of points, one being the parking. Just spells out again how disastrous the effects downtown has felt from the over reliance of automobiles as transit, and the lack of leadership and foresight by the RTA to make suburban transit effective. I feel the frustration by McCormack but frankly, I doubt workers especially the younger ones honestly care that much about working downtown. Time and time and again, atleast in NEO, as long as you have free parking, no one cares where you're HQ is. I've had friends from college who used to live in Cleveland, now back in Independence after having kids. One of them works for Sherwin and can't be more ecstatic that the R&D is now going to Valor Acres. The guy is still in his 20s. This idea that millenials and now gen z want to work in the city proper with the urban environment just seems overblown when free parking comes up. 

 

He has kids, and he lives right by Brecksville.  Plus, if he's in RD he is more likely to be a tech/scientific type.   They will work long hours sometimes and want to be comfortable about it.    Plus many of them crave space.

12 hours ago, cadmen said:

We're looking at two problems here. Companies moving out of downtown to a suburban location is one thing but the real elephant in the room is WFH. That is a much bigger concern for downtowns across the country. Its been a struggle for decades for the average city to hang onto its downtown office workers but when America's flagship downtowns (New York, Chicago etc.) are losing too then we know downtowns are in perilous times.

 

Downtown can't just be a place to live. A vibrant downtown needs office workers, government workers, residential and a sports/entertainment component. WFH is is a huge problem for downtowns. It may be great for the bottom line (companies need less space). And at first glance it may appear to be a bonus for workers although l'm not sure about that. Our society already spends too much time alone with a screen and l doubt that is psychologically healthy.

 

Get people to live there and companies will locate there.  That's how non-industrial commercial sprawl happened.   No reason it can't work in reverse.

1 hour ago, DO_Summers said:

A different question, why did AG build such an uninspiring building? Of course, I've never been inside so my apologies if I missed something essential. 

 

- D.O

The AG complex in Brooklyn was built as a massive warehouse and light manufacturing space not office space.  When AG moved their main distribution center to Arkansas to be closer to Walmart HQ the buildings became available and all AG workers were moved from Cleveland (78th street and other locations). At the time it was considered a big upgrade from the decrepit 78th Street Studios complex.  Just an aside - when I worked there in 2000 there were 3,400 workers on site.  The remaining Cleveland workers, now with offices in Westlake,  total around 300. 

8 minutes ago, Pigmeat said:

The AG complex in Brooklyn was built as a ...

@Pigmeat  I was referring to the Crocker Park building 

I'll wax philosophical for a bit.

 

The problem is this. Exactly what incentive is there for a company like Medical Mutual to be downtown? It's not an investment bank or cutting edge tech company.

 

The downtown office exodus is a national problem right now. It's unfortunate in the short term, but as long as the downtown residential population continues to grow, that's what really matters in my opinion. The dense urban core has existed for ten thousand years, while the modern office, as a concept, really only came to exist late in the industrial revolution. With the way tech is changing work environments, I'm not really sure what downtowns will look like in 50 years, but if we keep growing downtown's population, we'll be there for it--whatever it is.

1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I'll wax philosophical for a bit.

 

The problem is this. Exactly what incentive is there for a company like Medical Mutual to be downtown? It's not an investment bank or cutting edge tech company.

 

The downtown office exodus is a national problem right now. It's unfortunate in the short term, but as long as the downtown residential population continues to grow, that's what really matters in my opinion. The dense urban core has existed for ten thousand years, while the modern office, as a concept, really only came to exist late in the industrial revolution. With the way tech is changing work environments, I'm not really sure what downtowns will look like in 50 years, but if we keep growing downtown's population, we'll be there for it--whatever it is.

Ya this. Downtown residential construction never seemed to stop during the pandemic. Sure people might not want to commute to work downtown but alot of people appear to want to live downtown, especially if they can work from their apartment. Especially in the age of Amazon when everything is delivered to your door. 

5 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I'll wax philosophical for a bit.

 

The problem is this. Exactly what incentive is there for a company like Medical Mutual to be downtown? It's not an investment bank or cutting edge tech company.

 

The downtown office exodus is a national problem right now. It's unfortunate in the short term, but as long as the downtown residential population continues to grow, that's what really matters in my opinion. The dense urban core has existed for ten thousand years, while the modern office, as a concept, really only came to exist late in the industrial revolution. With the way tech is changing work environments, I'm not really sure what downtowns will look like in 50 years, but if we keep growing downtown's population, we'll be there for it--whatever it is.

 

I'm not so sure a cutting edge tech company has any incentive to be downtown either.   Banks do, lawyers do, government does, other companies who deal with the government do.   Companies where tradition or prestige make the difference will.    We've had this conversation vis a vis manufacturing HQs here from time to time, with them people being from the plants will also be an influence against locating downtown, plus the trend of HQ being co-located with or close to manufacturing (Cleveland Cliffs may stay where they are for the latter reason.)

15 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Ya this. Downtown residential construction never seemed to stop during the pandemic. Sure people might not want to commute to work downtown but alot of people appear to want to live downtown, especially if they can work from their apartment. Especially in the age of Amazon when everything is delivered to your door. 

So if more people are living downtown, wouldn't that bode well for businesses to locate downtown?  Those living downtown could just walk a few blocks from their apartment to the office.

Hey @E Rocc.  I am loving your new "right wing politically correct" language.   "Comfortable situation"...that is just precious.  Just for the record, I worked for almost 40 years downtown, lived there for two years and played downtown since I was a little kid.  My parents never had a problem with me heading downtown with friends or even alone for a Tribe game from Maple Hts even when I was as young as twelve. Never felt "uncomfortable" all these years (and I once had a guy fall over on top of me and die from a heart attack while sitting on a bench waiting for a rapid) I guess that is just me.  

Edited November 8, 20222 yr by Htsguy

I know the decision making about office space comes down to dollars and cents, but to attract employee talent it seems like the amenities of downtown are far superior than moving to this.

14 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Medical Mutual HQ staff won’t return downtown

By Ken Prendergast / November 7, 2022

 

A spokesperson for health insurance industry giant Medical Medical confirmed that the company’s headquarters will leave downtown Cleveland in 2023. However most of their roughly 1,000 downtown office employees never returned from remote-working during the pandemic, leaving the historic Rose Building at East 9th Street and Prospect Avenue mostly empty over the past two-plus years. Today’s news has led to some wondering if the building could be converted to residential as with other old office buildings downtown.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/07/medical-mutual-hq-staff-wont-return-downtown/

Sad to see them leave BUT that is a fabulous building for conversion to residential.

16 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

I know the decision making about office space comes down to dollars and cents, but to attract employee talent it seems like the amenities of downtown are far superior than moving to this.

 

Maybe or maybe not. That's my point. It's not a law firm or prestige company as @E Roccput it well. Most Med Mutual employees are 9-to-5ers doing what's essentially "back office" work. If there's 15 minutes less traffic and parking convenience so they get home at 5:15 instead of 5:30 and save $200 a month on parking, to a lot of people that's an unambiguous win.

18 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

Maybe or maybe not. That's my point. It's not a law firm or prestige company as @E Roccput it well. Most Med Mutual employees are 9-to-5ers doing what's essentially "back office" work. If there's 15 minutes less traffic and parking convenience so they get home at 5:15 instead of 5:30 and save $200 a month on parking, to a lot of people that's an unambiguous win.

 

I'm sure MM employee's living on the eastside will appreciate their commute now doubling in some cases.

 

Do posters on here realize traffic is worse getting to suburbs via 480 and 271 than it is driving into downtown on most days?

Edited November 8, 20222 yr by Clefan98

11 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

 

Maybe or maybe not. That's my point. It's not a law firm or prestige company as @E Roccput it well. Most Med Mutual employees are 9-to-5ers doing what's essentially "back office" work. If there's 15 minutes less traffic and parking convenience so they get home at 5:15 instead of 5:30 and save $200 a month on parking, to a lot of people that's an unambiguous win.

Absolutely.  But it brings us back to this --

13 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Ken's article brings up a lot of points, one being the parking. Just spells out again how disastrous the effects downtown has felt from the over reliance of automobiles as transit, and the lack of leadership and foresight by the RTA to make suburban transit effective. I feel the frustration by McCormack but frankly, I doubt workers especially the younger ones honestly care that much about working downtown. Time and time and again, atleast in NEO, as long as you have free parking, no one cares where you're HQ is. I've had friends from college who used to live in Cleveland, now back in Independence after having kids. One of them works for Sherwin and can't be more ecstatic that the R&D is now going to Valor Acres. The guy is still in his 20s. This idea that millenials and now gen z want to work in the city proper with the urban environment just seems overblown when free parking comes up. 

Over-reliance on infrastructure built for The Car rather than The People makes for places that look pretty uninviting to pedestrians -- it's just a place to drive to and drive from. Not even a sidewalk to take a walk at your lunch break, and probably nothing to walk to anyway.

19 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

I know the decision making about office space comes down to dollars and cents, but to attract employee talent it seems like the amenities of downtown are far superior than moving to this.

But with oil companies racking up record profit margins and buying back stock rather than drilling new wells, those workers can expect unavoidable chaos in their gas-price future in exchange for that 15-minute shorter commute.

Cleveland needs to figure out how to stop companies from leaving city limits.

3 minutes ago, JB said:

Cleveland needs to figure out how to stop companies from leaving city limits.

This is a problem for all cities, not just Cleveland, in a post-pandemic world.  NYC has 120 Million Sq Ft of unoccupied office buildings.

We are in a new world. I don't know what the answer is.  The only thing I'm reasonably confident in is that we aren't going back to the old work environment.

The companies and the cities that figure this out best will attract the workers of the future.

A growing economy will eventually fill empty office space, even if 75% of office workers are now WFH, just on a much longer timeline. The question is whether Cleveland fits that mold. Demand for office space has been soft in our region for a long time, suburbs included.

5 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

This is a problem for all cities, not just Cleveland, in a post-pandemic world.  NYC has 120 Million Sq Ft of unoccupied office buildings.

We are in a new world. I don't know what the answer is.  The only thing I'm reasonably confident in is that we aren't going back to the old work environment.

The companies and the cities that figure this out best will attract the workers of the future.

I agree with you that this will be the case (unfortunately in my mind for so many reason).  What I am going to find interesting is whether in 3-4 years we are going to start seeing a whole host of employment lawsuits where the complainant  asserts he/she was fired or not promoted because they choose to work from home rather than the office.  At this point I cannot imagine what the legal basis would be, especially in an employment at will state, but as we all know plaintiff's attorneys can be very creative.

25 minutes ago, JB said:

Cleveland needs to figure out how to stop companies from leaving city limits.

LOL, or change the city limits.

From an urban design perspective the current state of the Medical Mutual Building is about as bad as it can get for an occupied structure. One large user with a massive, completely empty 1st floor dining hall, and generally neglected former storefronts with underused 1980's cubicles. Outside of a few office workers moving in and out of the building I don't think it will feel much different when it's empty. Sell it to a developer that can make better use of this important intersection. Outside of tax collections for the City, good riddance.

Are there other tenants in the building?  How hard will it be to clear out for an apartment conversion?

Is that building suitable for apartment conversion?

1 hour ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

This is a problem for all cities, not just Cleveland, in a post-pandemic world.  NYC has 120 Million Sq Ft of unoccupied office buildings.

We are in a new world. I don't know what the answer is.  The only thing I'm reasonably confident in is that we aren't going back to the old work environment.

The companies and the cities that figure this out best will attract the workers of the future.

It was a problem even before Covid for this city.

2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

This is a problem for all cities, not just Cleveland, in a post-pandemic world.  NYC has 120 Million Sq Ft of unoccupied office buildings.

We are in a new world. I don't know what the answer is.  The only thing I'm reasonably confident in is that we aren't going back to the old work environment.

The companies and the cities that figure this out best will attract the workers of the future.

Agreed. To my above point--

 

Nobody knows what the answer is, but if we keep growing the downtown residential population, we'll eventually figure it out, and stuff like Med Mutual leaving won't matter in the long term.

 

1 downtown resident > 1 downtown commuter.

4 hours ago, Htsguy said:

Hey @E Rocc.  I am loving your new "right wing politically correct" language.   "Comfortable situation"...that is just precious.  Just for the record, I worked for almost 40 years downtown, lived there for two years and played downtown since I was a little kid.  My parents never had a problem with me heading downtown with friends or even alone for a Tribe game from Maple Hts even when I was as young as twelve. Never felt "uncomfortable" all these years (and I once had a guy fall over on top of me and die from a heart attack while sitting on a bench waiting for a rapid) I guess that is just me.  

 

Same, more or less, bussed all over Maple Heights until I went to college, typically bounced off of downtown even though I didn't have to when I was commuting to CWRU.  

What makes you or I "uncomfortable" doesn't really matter.   People won't go, or especially live, somewhere they are not comfortable, as long as they have options.   If they don't have options, they will often find a way to have options.

2 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said:

LOL, or change the city limits.

 

Not an option, not in a state where suburbanites hold the balance of power.

10 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Not an option, not in a state where suburbanites hold the balance of power.

Once the last of the backwater boomers die off, things will begin to change. 

 

Great song 😉 
 

 

 

Edited November 8, 20222 yr by Clefan98