There is a lot of trying to deflect from the fact that the city just lost a fortune 1000 company. somehow it's better for 200 apartments to be in the Rose building than a multi-billion dollar company. 

45 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

Once the last of the backwater boomers die off, things will begin to change. 

 

 

The "hippies" thought that too.   Watching "Logan's Run" again?

2 hours ago, JB said:

It was a problem even before Covid for this city.

Yes - it was BUT the economics that were driving the issue have changed.  Some of the reasons why companies/employees are moving have remained the same but others have changed.  For example,

Pre-Covid:  Employees wanted to be in cities because of the amenities   Post-Covid:  Employees want to be in low-cost areas that have access to cities with amenities

Pre-Covid:  Companies wanted trophy offices downtown   Post-Covid:  Companies are looking for cost-effective solutions that allow for a hybrid (remote/in-person) environment

Historically:  Some companies wanted to work in warmer/low-tax areas    Future:  Companies will be looking to deploy workers in areas with less exposure to climate change

 

Low costs/incentives, where the CEO lives or want to live, city amenities, access to quality talent/education will always be draws - but some of the above could favor Cleveland in the long run

2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Agreed. To my above point--

 

Nobody knows what the answer is, but if we keep growing the downtown residential population, we'll eventually figure it out, and stuff like Med Mutual leaving won't matter in the long term.

 

1 downtown resident > 1 downtown commuter.

 

Another cold-comfort consolation:  I doubt MM has much of a future. Unless they become something more than an insurance provider, I think 'Obamacare' competition will eventually (10 years?) drive them out of business.

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

There is a lot of trying to deflect from the fact that the city just lost a fortune 1000 company. somehow it's better for 200 apartments to be in the Rose building than a multi-billion dollar company. 

The point is the multi-billion dollar company made the decision to move out of the city to a more suburban setting while still remaining in the region.  Cleveland didn't even get the chance to make an offer as the news of the move was learned by the City the same day it was announced.  We can't be mad at the City for that; it was a decision made entirely by the company for whatever their reasons were.  We're in a time where the future growth of our cities won't be based purely on economics alone- Covid turned that on it's head and people are moving to cities for reasons other than just where the job may be physically located.  MM made their decision on their own, for what they believed was for the good of the company and we'll just have to live with it.  Thankfully, the dollars will remain in the region.

 

What can be done is, hopefully, lemons can be turned into lemonade after the sale of the building to a developer who could have it remain offices, turn it into a mixed-use building with offices and apartments, or just apartments.  Maybe some type of other use could be found for the building.  What we do know is that the housing market downtown remains intact.  The continued growth of residential options for future residents isn't a bad thing. 

6 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

So if more people are living downtown, wouldn't that bode well for businesses to locate downtown?  Those living downtown could just walk a few blocks from their apartment to the office.

Oh I don't disagree, but we are in a transition period and downtown is a fledgling residential neighborhood. Im just saying residential will be the leader for now on opposed to commercial in the downtown area. But yes more residential will drive more commercial in the long run. 

On 11/7/2022 at 2:37 PM, Htsguy said:

I imagine that eventually this will turn residential.  We are running out of buildings to convert in the heart of the city, especially this extra attractive location.  The only thing that might hamper a conversion in the short term are the same economic factors which may contribute to a slow in the construction industry the next few years.  

Landmark Offices post-SW move-out will leave another 900,000sf available for residential conversion. 

Today's WSJ says that office buildings are being cancelled or deferred  around the country.  It may be a while before Cleveland (or almost any other city) sees any new multi-tenant office proposals.  It's gloomy news and maybe somewhat of an overreaction to interest rate news. We need to see how important WFH is in the long run.

 

Will Bedrock chop 15 stories off the Hudson Block tower in Detroit?

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-office-developers-hit-the-pause-button-on-new-projects-11667862881

 

The downtown ecosystem is so different now; I can't blame developers for hitting the pause button.

 

There's just no point in spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a pretty new building that will likely never again be at capacity. 

 

Maybe all new commercial buildings of a certain height will need an integrated partial residential component to make sense.

2 hours ago, Dougal said:

Today's WSJ says that office buildings are being cancelled or deferred  around the country.  It may be a while before Cleveland (or almost any other city) sees any new multi-tenant office proposals.  It's gloomy news and maybe somewhat of an overreaction to interest rate news. We need to see how important WFH is in the long run.

Were there any serious plans for new office buildings in Cleveland?  I don't think so. Maybe Rocket Mortgage, but that looks unlikely now.  nuCLEus (or whatever was planned on that site) is apparently dead. The second tower for SHW won't be happening anytime soon, if at all. The debate about a new justice center will continue for several more years.  We may not see any new residential construction for a while with Landmark and Medical Mutual space soon becoming available for conversion.  Gloomy news indeed.

 

Edited November 9, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Were there any serious plans for new office buildings in Cleveland?  I don't think so. Maybe Rocket Mortgage, but that looks unlikely now.  nuCLEus (or whatever was planned on that site) is apparently dead. The second tower for SHW won't be happening anytime soon, if at all. The debate about a new justice center will continue for several more years.  We may not see any new residential construction for a while with Landmark and Medical Mutual space soon becoming available for conversion.  Gloomy news indeed.

 

 

New office buildings, except for those that are company-owned and occupied, are likely off the table unless the DCA's proposed incentives are enacted and work as hoped. Residential remains hot. The Bolivar Apartments are still a go. There are additional projects in the works. It's never as bad or as good as it may seem.

On 11/7/2022 at 3:20 PM, GISguy said:

 

I get your point, but COVID absolutely decimated their downtown workforce. I work across the street - I've seen like 2-3 people come out of there when I'm on my lunch breaks and their cafeteria on the first floor has been empty save 1-2 people most days. I swear the county brought us back into the office just to subsidize Geis' parking garage and Heinens. Downtown work ain't what it used to be.

Hard to decide which post to quote.  I guess I'll try this one.

 

The writing has been on the wall for a while.  MM is beholden to those tax incentives they agreed to with the city of Brooklyn when they signed the lease to the old AG building.  I think those run to 2025.  So there were headcount guarantees involved which meant that with so many of the call center and other departments moving to full-time work at home, the headcounts weren't there (and thus city of Brooklyn income taxes) with the departments that were originally slated for Brooklyn pre-covid.

 

The 'solution' was to ship other departments from the Rose building to Brooklyn.  Believe it or not, once the return to office plans were announced and people started filtering back in, the Rose building was somewhat populated again.  However, when reality set in and the shifting of departments to Brooklyn started over the past 6-9 months the building went literally dark.  I didn't hear from anyone who was particularly excited about being moved to Brooklyn.  Parking is not the issue it's being made out to be; there's plenty to be found downtown these days.  In fact, with the rash of catalytic converter thefts from the Brooklyn parking lot, you might say parking downtown was a safer bet. (Some) Rose building workers do use RTA.  There is no viable RTA route from the eastside to Brooklyn. I would assume most east-siders would opt to go WAH than face, as has been noted earlier, a doubling of their commute and dealing with the insanity of 480.

 

Either way, the announced vacating of the Rose building is really just an announcement of what's already happened.  

3 hours ago, sizzlinbeef said:

 

Believe it or not, once the return to office plans were announced and people started filtering back in, the Rose building was somewhat populated again.  However, when reality set in and the shifting of departments to Brooklyn started over the past 6-9 months the building went literally dark.  

 

 

Thanks for posting this. I’d noticed that the building was really getting busy again and then just fell off a cliff earlier this year. 

@sizzlinbeef Do you see any possibilities in which MM might return some jobs downtown in 2025 or thereafter?

10 hours ago, KJP said:

@sizzlinbeef Do you see any possibilities in which MM might return some jobs downtown in 2025 or thereafter?

Maybe.  That would be about enough time to do a total reno of Rose.  I doubt there's the stomach for that, having just totally gutted and rehabbed AG.  I can only see that happening if there ends up being no suitors for the building.

23 hours ago, KJP said:

 

New office buildings, except for those that are company-owned and occupied, are likely off the table unless the DCA's proposed incentives are enacted and work as hoped. Residential remains hot. The Bolivar Apartments are still a go. There are additional projects in the works. It's never as bad or as good as it may seem.

Interesting wording.  Any possible update on a new headquarters for Cleveland Cliffs?   That would be company owed and occupied.

Likely wishful-thinking on my part but had to ask

2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Interesting wording.  Any possible update on a new headquarters for Cleveland Cliffs?   That would be company owed and occupied.

Likely wishful-thinking on my part but had to ask

 

Haven't heard a peep about Cliffs in a while.

 

DCA President Mike Deemer spoke today at the City Club. Unfortunately he didn't say anything about Medical Mutual and no one asked him...

 

 

Most of this is about downtown Cleveland's office market but also on the general future of downtown overall.....

 

 

Reactivating downtown Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / November 10, 2022

 

In the late 20th century, downtown Cleveland rolled up its sidewalks after 5 p.m. Now, on some weekdays, it seems like downtown doesn’t roll out its sidewalks until after 5 p.m. That shows how much downtown has changed in the post-pandemic world from a commercial district to a residential, entertainment and tourism center.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/10/reactivating-downtown-cleveland/

 

42 minutes ago, KJP said:

Most of this is about downtown Cleveland's office market but also on the general future of downtown overall.....

 

 

Reactivating downtown Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / November 10, 2022

 

In the late 20th century, downtown Cleveland rolled up its sidewalks after 5 p.m. Now, on some weekdays, it seems like downtown doesn’t roll out its sidewalks until after 5 p.m. That shows how much downtown has changed in the post-pandemic world from a commercial district to a residential, entertainment and tourism center.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/10/reactivating-downtown-cleveland/

 

Just heading in the direction of a European style city center atleast from a residential to commercial perspective, not necessarily building type and style perspective. 

I was amazed by the number of high-rises I saw in Vancouver when I was there 25 years ago. I assume a lot more have been added since then.

 

Edited November 10, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd

2 hours ago, KJP said:

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/10/reactivating-downtown-cleveland/

 

Great interview and article, Ken. Very informative.

On 11/8/2022 at 2:37 PM, Whipjacka said:

There is a lot of trying to deflect from the fact that the city just lost a fortune 1000 company. somehow it's better for 200 apartments to be in the Rose building than a multi-billion dollar company. 

Cleveland once was number 3 on the Fortune 500 company headquarters list.  Now it has just THREE companies on that list:  Cleveland Cliffs, Key Bank and Sherwin Williams.  Both Akron and Maumee have two on the list.  Columbus has three.  Cincinnati and Pittsburgh each have six.  Now Cleveland is losing Medical Mutual on the Fortune 1000 list.  At least Medical Mutual is staying in the area.  It is big help to Brooklyn to finally regaining at least some, if not most of the loss of tax dollars from American Greetings.  Losing a company worth billions is devastating any way one looks at it.  Does anybody see a Fortune 500 or Fortune 1000 company relocating to Cleveland in the foreseeable future to make up for the losses?

On 11/8/2022 at 10:06 AM, ryanfrazier said:

I know the decision making about office space comes down to dollars and cents, but to attract employee talent it seems like the amenities of downtown are far superior than moving to this.

In the long run, unless the building looks like a dump or is generally poor shape, does it really matter what it looks like to most?  One would think what is inside matters the most.  Is it a good place to work?  How do the pay and benefits stack up?  How well is it managed?  Is it stressful?  What is the future of the company?  When things shake out, how many people would rather work in a building that is below par in most if not all of those things that happens to be classic in appearance or go for a convenient location that works out to be better in the other areas?  Convenience does matter as RTA offers little in making many jobs convenient for most workers.

4 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Does anybody see a Fortune 500 or Fortune 1000 company relocating to Cleveland in the foreseeable future to make up for the losses?

The next F500 Cleveland-area company will probably be RPM in Medina; if you want to limit it to downtown, it will probably be TransDigm.  These will represent growth of existing companies, not relocations. Relocations are very hard to predict. 

7 hours ago, Dougal said:

The next F500 Cleveland-area company will probably be RPM in Medina; if you want to limit it to downtown, it will probably be TransDigm.  These will represent growth of existing companies, not relocations. Relocations are very hard to predict. 

A possibility of a company to be added to the list is great, however as you mentioned that company is in Medina.  It is good for the area, but it doesn't soften the blow of the City of Cleveland losing another major company.  The city has lost so many companies, either by moving out of the city's limits (Parker-Hannifin, Eaton) or mergers/acquistions (East Ohio Gas, SOHIO, National City, Charter One, Union Commerce, Ameritrust by Society, Central National by Key).

^ Also CEI and Ohio Bell had HQs downtown.  And some others in the metro area were TRW, Harris Corp, Figgie International, Cook United, Pick-N-Pay, Fazio's, Stouffer's, Revco.  If it's any consolation, a couple of those are either defunct or significantly smaller.

 

Edited November 11, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd

9 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

A possibility of a company to be added to the list is great, however as you mentioned that company is in Medina.  It is good for the area, but it doesn't soften the blow of the City of Cleveland losing another major company.  The city has lost so many companies, either by moving out of the city's limits (Parker-Hannifin, Eaton) or mergers/acquistions (East Ohio Gas, SOHIO, National City, Charter One, Union Commerce, Ameritrust by Society, Central National by Key).

This would be a much larger issue if it was 2019 and everyone's working from the office. In a region where each city collects it's own income tax based on where you physically work or live, capturing residents who works remotely is just as important. 

 

At one point the Rose building held 1000+ workers, but from a source who works there you're lucky if the city is capturing 200 people for income tax purposes. It would honestly be better at this point if the building was sold and converted into 200 plus apartments where you are capturing income tax from all of those residents. It would also be worth noting that some of these remote workers do reside in Cleveland, and some even live downtown, so you're still capturing their income tax. We aren't going to change industry trends as far as workplace habits go, so it's time to adapt. 

 

This would be a bigger issue if medical mutual left the region and therefore the region lost jobs. But in an industry where like 80 percent of the workers are working from home, you want to consider should we be working harder to attract highly paid residents into the city no matter where they work, and focus on building complete neighborhoods with real mixed use buildings with some small amounts of commercial or co working space opposed to building commercial only high rises. We did the latter for 50 years and it left us with a hollowed out city as everyone left to the suburbs. 

 

Also you named off quite a good amount of companies, and it's a shame that those mergers happened. But in the last 5-10 years I believe Cleveland and the region has won the merger game handedly. Eaton, Parker, Sherwin Williams buying Valspar, Cleveland Cliffs buying everyone, Transdigm buying everyone.

 

 

 

TLDR; so many people work from home we should be placing most of our focus on resident attraction in Cleveland, and building true mixed use with limited commercial space. Focus on complete neighborhoods, as that's what brings in income tax

 

Cleveland has been winning the merger game for the last 5-10 years. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

A possibility of a company to be added to the list is great, however as you mentioned that company is in Medina.  It is good for the area, but it doesn't soften the blow of the City of Cleveland losing another major company.  The city has lost so many companies, either by moving out of the city's limits (Parker-Hannifin, Eaton) or mergers/acquistions (East Ohio Gas, SOHIO, National City, Charter One, Union Commerce, Ameritrust by Society, Central National by Key).

Diamond Shamrock, Fisher Foods, Addressograph, Dobeckman, etc.  I believe in the late 60s Cleveland (area) had 29 F500 companies.  But that's water over the dam or spilled milk or something.  Looking ahead, there are 'comers' on the F1000 list or just off of it.  I'd prefer to pay attention to them.

 

What does concern me is the paucity of private biomed companies and the few Cleveland does have are only semi-successful at best.

18 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Also you named off quite a good amount of companies, and it's a shame that those mergers happened. But in the last 5-10 years I believe Cleveland and the region has won the merger game handedly. Eaton, Parker, Sherwin Williams buying Valspar, Cleveland Cliffs buying everyone, Transdigm buying everyone.

 

Right on.

 

And there's Key Bank's acquisition of First Niagara Bank we can add to your list.

24 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

^ Also CEI and Ohio Bell.

 

13 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Diamond Shamrock, Fisher Foods, Addressograph, Dobeckman, etc.  I believe in the late 60s Cleveland (area) had 29 F500 companies.  But that's water over the dam or spilled milk or something.  Looking ahead, there are 'comers' on the F1000 list or just off of it.  I'd prefer to pay attention to them.

 

What does concern me is the paucity of private biomed companies and the few Cleveland does have are only semi-successful at best.

Thank you both for expanding on the list.  It just emphasizes the corporate losses that the city has endured over the years.  Considering that Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals are both based here, the semi-successful nature of biomed companies is worrisome.  One would expect that type of business excelling here. 

17 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

This would be a much larger issue if it was 2019 and everyone's working from the office. In a region where each city collects it's own income tax based on where you physically work or live, capturing residents who works remotely is just as important. 

 

At one point the Rose building held 1000+ workers, but from a source who works there you're lucky if the city is capturing 200 people for income tax purposes. It would honestly be better at this point if the building was sold and converted into 200 plus apartments where you are capturing income tax from all of those residents. It would also be worth noting that some of these remote workers do reside in Cleveland, and some even live downtown, so you're still capturing their income tax. We aren't going to change industry trends as far as workplace habits go, so it's time to adapt. 

 

This would be a bigger issue if medical mutual left the region and therefore the region lost jobs. But in an industry where like 80 percent of the workers are working from home, you want to consider should we be working harder to attract highly paid residents into the city no matter where they work, and focus on building complete neighborhoods with real mixed use buildings with some small amounts of commercial or co working space opposed to building commercial only high rises. We did the latter for 50 years and it left us with a hollowed out city as everyone left to the suburbs. 

 

Also you named off quite a good amount of companies, and it's a shame that those mergers happened. But in the last 5-10 years I believe Cleveland and the region has won the merger game handedly. Eaton, Parker, Sherwin Williams buying Valspar, Cleveland Cliffs buying everyone, Transdigm buying everyone.

 

TLDR; so many people work from home we should be placing most of our focus on resident attraction in Cleveland, and building true mixed use with limited commercial space. Focus on complete neighborhoods, as that's what brings in income tax

 

Cleveland has been winning the merger game for the last 5-10 years. 

Unfortunately, with the losses of all of those companies, the income tax paid by residents for companies not within the city's limits only makes up partially for the corporate tax loses.  As for those companies that have left the area, they will take residents with them. 

New report notes that Cleveland is a leader in converting office space to apartments:

https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/rental-market/market-snapshots/adaptive-reuse-apartments/

 

9 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

New report notes that Cleveland is a leader in converting office space to apartments:

https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/rental-market/market-snapshots/adaptive-reuse-apartments/

 

 

Cleveland will rank even higher when Centennial is converted. Surprised to see NYC out of the top 5.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Cleveland will rank even higher when Centennial is converted. Surprised to see NYC out of the top 5.

Too much over-building in NYC.  

I'm not expert in real estate but I really think Cleveland has a lot of assets that other cities do not that make it an extremely viable option if remote work/hybrid work takes hold (which I think employees want it too).

-Low(er) building rental prices

-Low(er) new building construction costs

-Access to talent/educated workforce (e.g., Case Western, OSU, even (cringe) U Michigan, UPitt, Carnegie Mellon, etc)

-Affordable suburbs with great schools

-Natural beauty (there is a small body of water nearby) for recreational opportunities

-A great food and craft beer scene

-Professional Sports

-Theater/the Arts

-Less exposure to climate change than most cities

-A desire to on-shore more manufacturing 

etc, etc, etc

 

I'd love to see local companies more their headquarters and/or more employees downtown BUT I think Cleveland has a great opportunity to draw companies and talent from across the globe (as many of you had pointed out - enough companies moved out of Cleveland for various reasons in the past)

We have similar amenities to a lot of major cities like Chicago and NYC without the costs, the commutes.

I see a bright future that Cleveland should be capitalizing on

 

The majority of office space in NYC isn't really able to be converted to residential, for a variety of reasons.

 

Building Code:

- You can't do interior bedrooms in NYC like you can in many markets. Borrowing light and air isn't allowed, so by nature you end up with a lot of legal studios that have a "den" that's interior, but can't legally be described or used as a bedroom. This limits rent or sale prices.

- Depth from windows. No habitable space (in NYC, that's living rooms, bedrooms, dining spaces over 55 square feet, and kitchens over 80 square feet) can be any further from a window providing legal light and air than 30 feet. This means in larger footprints that you wind up with a ton of square footage that isn't actually usable for things that increase your revenue.

- No use can exist over top of residential space. This mean, by nature, residential must always be at the top of a building. Should you want to convert a portion of an office building, this means you must convert the office space that also warrants the highest price per square foot.

 

Zoning:

- FAR for residential buildings within commercial zones is systematically lower than the corresponding commercial FAR. So in many buildings, you wouldn't legally be allowed to convert the entire building to residential. This is a nonstarter for the vast majority of projects.

- There's a statewide limitation of residential FAR of 12 on any site in New York State. This is in contrast to commercial zones that can be as high as 36 (there are bonuses from there as well), meaning a ton of buildings that might be otherwise convertible are just way too big to be fully converted. This is an issue for a huge chunk of commercial structures built since the 1950s.

 

There are a ton of roadblocks here that make conversions exceptionally rare. And until they go away, they will remain rare.

Edited November 11, 20222 yr by jmicha

@Chazz Michael Michaels Unfortunately, Cleveland does not have low construction costs although they're getting better. They've been some of the highest in the country -- on par with if not higher than Chicago and New York. The reason is a lack of competition from outside general contractors and especially subcontractors. That's changing, as we've seen some developers and GCs from other metro areas make inroads here, forcing local GCs and subs to lower their prices. 

Here's a potential gain:  Clevelander Stephanie Dorsey appointed CEO of Siemans Real Estate Services USA.  She will be based in Cleveland.

 

https://new.siemens.com/us/en/company/press/press-releases/usa/siemens-appoints-key-us-leadership-team-members.html

 

Clevelander Stephanie Dorsey named to head Siemens' North American real estate operations | Crain's Cleveland Business (crainscleveland.com)

 

I'm having trouble making the above links work.  Sorry.

53 minutes ago, KJP said:

@Chazz Michael Michaels Unfortunately, Cleveland does not have low construction costs although they're getting better. They've been some of the highest in the country -- on par with if not higher than Chicago and New York. The reason is a lack of competition from outside general contractors and especially subcontractors. That's changing, as we've seen some developers and GCs from other metro areas make inroads here, forcing local GCs and subs to lower their prices. 

You would likely know the space better than I do but I find it hard to believe that construction costs in Cleveland are anywhere near Chicago or NYC.    Unfortunately, current data is a little hard to come by - I guess unless you are paying for it.  The old chart that I found below has Cleveland's constructions costs at 25% below NYC and 15% below Chicago - which would seem directionally accurate to me.  Having said that, even if the costs were more similar, I think the other items on my list bode well for Cleveland in the future

@KJPThanks for the article. I'm surprised to learn how little office space Vancouver has. That really gives me a lot of hope for us.

 

I did a little research and was shocked to learn that, by office square footage, Cleveland in 2011 had the 13th largest downtown in North America. And that included NYC being counted three times ahead of us in the list (midtown, downtown, midtown south were counted separately). In terms of U.S. cities, we were behind only NYC, Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Seattle, and Houston for CBD commercial sq. footage.

 

As I had said above, the dense urban center has a rich history as a place that people live and gather (10,000 years). It has a much shorter history as a place people commute to work in an office building (<150 years). So hopefully if we can continue to grow our downtown population that will allow us to participate in the best parts of whatever urban centers look like 50 years from now.

 

To say it in a simpler way, your article gives me a lot of hope that reduction in office space could be a stage of growth for Cleveland rather than a symptom of decline.

Well said @LlamaLawyer and thanks for the perspective. Private sector firms, government agencies and individuals who rely on routines and the status quo are having a very difficult time right now. The ones who can adapt and find the opportunities within the challenges will survive and perhaps thrive. There's one in particular I'm worried about -- GCRTA. With some exceptions, their entire existence has depended almost entirely on moving 9-to-5 office workers in and out of the central business district. The sooner they recognize that they can help create and link a bunch of tiny 15-minute cities, the better. Indeed, each Red Line rail station (along with a couple of new ones) should be the focal point of a 15-minute city. If not, then maybe we should get rid of it because it doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore.

4 hours ago, KJP said:

Well said @LlamaLawyer and thanks for the perspective. Private sector firms, government agencies and individuals who rely on routines and the status quo are having a very difficult time right now. The ones who can adapt and find the opportunities within the challenges will survive and perhaps thrive. There's one in particular I'm worried about -- GCRTA. With some exceptions, their entire existence has depended almost entirely on moving 9-to-5 office workers in and out of the central business district. The sooner they recognize that they can help create and link a bunch of tiny 15-minute cities, the better. Indeed, each Red Line rail station (along with a couple of new ones) should be the focal point of a 15-minute city. If not, then maybe we should get rid of it because it doesn't serve much of a purpose anymore.

For a transit system to be dependent on the 9-to-5 office workers, based upon their actions over the last several years, they seem to think they aren't important either.  Management seems to not even realize what century they are in at this time.  Yes, they offer wi-fi, but people want things quick and comfortable.  This isn't the 1940's where bus trailers with hard seats and no suspension were in use along with streetcars that had coal-fired stoves and rattan seats were the only options for people to get around.  Slow, unreliable and uncomfortable service is doing nothing to retain riders, let alone attract new ones or lure back the ones who have left. 

 

The former president of the board of trustees Dennis Clough wisely decided to not even consider some sort of tax increase to fund RTA.  He knew it would fail badly and it would fare even worse today.  Most people have no use for RTA and it has significantly failed the suburbs that fall under the "regional" banner.

 

Until new viable leadership comes aboard that completely cleans house, RTA will continue its death spiral.

45 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

For a transit system to be dependent on the 9-to-5 office workers, based upon their actions over the last several years, they seem to think they aren't important either.  Management seems to not even realize what century they are in at this time.  Yes, they offer wi-fi, but people want things quick and comfortable.  This isn't the 1940's where bus trailers with hard seats and no suspension were in use along with streetcars that had coal-fired stoves and rattan seats were the only options for people to get around.  Slow, unreliable and uncomfortable service is doing nothing to retain riders, let alone attract new ones or lure back the ones who have left. 

 

The former president of the board of trustees Dennis Clough wisely decided to not even consider some sort of tax increase to fund RTA.  He knew it would fail badly and it would fare even worse today.  Most people have no use for RTA and it has significantly failed the suburbs that fall under the "regional" banner.

 

Until new viable leadership comes aboard that completely cleans house, RTA will continue its death spiral.

My brother who now lives in Germany and has a degree in transit planning, made an interesting point to me when he was in town. In Germany buses stop every half mile where in Cleveland it's like three or four times every half mile. It would behoove RTA to consider doing it the way they do in Germany if they're going to be focusing on buses. It would significantly speed up bus trips.m from place to place and condense ridership. 

^ I’m originally from England and would agree that the cadence of stops in the RTA system is a little off. The buses stop a little too frequently and the trains stop not quite often enough. 

50 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

My brother who now lives in Germany and has a degree in transit planning, made an interesting point to me when he was in town. In Germany buses stop every half mile where in Cleveland it's like three or four times every half mile. It would behoove RTA to consider doing it the way they do in Germany if they're going to be focusing on buses. It would significantly speed up bus trips.m from place to place and condense ridership. 

In Germany, do they offer express services or basically non-stop operations from outlying areas?  Under the operation of CTS and after the creation of RTA, there were multiple routes that offered express service and during rush hours, flyer service (even fewer stops) .  Those buses would stop at major destinations, but not be slowed down by the many intermediate stops.  Those stops were served by the local buses.  For the #9 Mayfield route, they operated flyer service during the rush hours and express service the remainder of the day.  It was very common for Mayfield flyer buses to pass 4 or 6 #6/6A local buses. 

 

Later when RTA operated park-n-ride freeway service during rush hours, it would take 1/3 to 1/4 of the travel time to get from a park-n-ride lot.  After RTA eliminated most of those routes (only the "subsidized" Strongsville/Brunswick route remains), the reasoning was they made less money than the local services between the same two points as they could service more riders along the city streets.  First, all of RTA's operations can be considered money losers, it is just that the park-n-ride freeway routes had no opportunities to serve riders once they got on the freeway.  It didn't help that the park-n-ride lots had poor security serving to alienate riders.  Second, the park-n-ride service only charged 10% more than regular bus service.  When RTA was formed the percentage of flyer/express fares were much larger over local fares at 40%.

 

It seems that RTA has completely missed the point that people want things quickly.  For commuting purposes, turning normal commutes via RTA that would have taken 15-20 minutes into hour long trips is a turnoff.  They could learn a lot from successful major US transit operations as well as others in places like Germany.  If these other operations can make them work, so could RTA if they bothered.

1 hour ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

In Germany, do they offer express services or basically non-stop operations from outlying areas?  Under the operation of CTS and after the creation of RTA, there were multiple routes that offered express service and during rush hours, flyer service (even fewer stops) .  Those buses would stop at major destinations, but not be slowed down by the many intermediate stops.  Those stops were served by the local buses.  For the #9 Mayfield route, they operated flyer service during the rush hours and express service the remainder of the day.  It was very common for Mayfield flyer buses to pass 4 or 6 #6/6A local buses. 

 

Later when RTA operated park-n-ride freeway service during rush hours, it would take 1/3 to 1/4 of the travel time to get from a park-n-ride lot.  After RTA eliminated most of those routes (only the "subsidized" Strongsville/Brunswick route remains), the reasoning was they made less money than the local services between the same two points as they could service more riders along the city streets.  First, all of RTA's operations can be considered money losers, it is just that the park-n-ride freeway routes had no opportunities to serve riders once they got on the freeway.  It didn't help that the park-n-ride lots had poor security serving to alienate riders.  Second, the park-n-ride service only charged 10% more than regular bus service.  When RTA was formed the percentage of flyer/express fares were much larger over local fares at 40%.

 

It seems that RTA has completely missed the point that people want things quickly.  For commuting purposes, turning normal commutes via RTA that would have taken 15-20 minutes into hour long trips is a turnoff.  They could learn a lot from successful major US transit operations as well as others in places like Germany.  If these other operations can make them work, so could RTA if they bothered.

My brother lives in Kiel, a city that is around 300k but is obviously condensed comoared to a US city of similar size.  In a city where you can bike end to end in like thirty minutes it doesn't really make sense to have flyer service as within four stops you are center city from the outskirts. 

 

I'm unsure what Hamburg, where his wife is from, does as far as flyer bus service. I do know they have direct regional service for rail and further out local subway lines. 

 

Another great thing about Kiel is they have all electric buses. Not trackless trolley style but literal charging poles that come out at the end of the line, hook up and turbo charge at a substation. My brother believes  this new style of bus should make streetcars obsolete as they are better for the environment but have the ability to maneuver around traffic as BRT style. 

Edited November 12, 20222 yr by KFM44107

4 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

My brother lives in Kiel, a city that is around 300k but is obviously condensed condensed to a US city of similar size.  In a city where you can bike end to end in like thirty minutes it doesn't really make sense to have flyer service as within four stops you are center city from the outskirts. 

 

I'm unsure what Hamburg, where his wife is from, does as far as flyer bus service. I do know they have direct regional service for rail and further out local subway lines. 

 

Another great thing about Kiel is they have all electric buses. Not trackless trolley style but literal charging poles that come out at the end of the line, hook up and turbo charge at a substation. My brother.beleiges this new style of bus should make streetcars obsolete as they are better for the environment but have the ability to maneuver around traffic. 

I am familiar with the battery powered buses.  Last year, the "tiny" Laketran system became the first system in the state to adopt that style of bus.  That system also has been extremely successful in securing all sorts of grants and special funding.   That is how they were basically able to launch the battery powered bus operation.

 

Many US major transit operations have successful highway express bus services using highway coaches, not city buses or modified city-type buses, for commuters who live further outside the central urban area.  RTA purchased a new fleet of highway coaches for their park-n-ride service to replace the remaining coaches that were about 18 years old in 2020.  Then, about a year later after purchasing the new highway coaches, they decided to eliminate most of that type of service.  They unloaded 6 older coaches in 2021 that had many years of service remaining for next to nothing and then this year donated two others that were even newer than the ones unloaded in 2021.  Many of the 2020 buses sit unused.  The park-n-ride lots have basically been abandoned as there was no interest in using the remaining stop-and-go service to get downtown.

Hmmm.... 

 

Real estate firm files broker's lien on Key Tower

November 14, 2022 10:21 AM
 

A big commission dispute has surfaced in Cuyahoga County property records from one of the largest office leases in years that was consummated earlier this year at Key Tower, which is Cleveland's, and Ohio's, tallest skyscraper.

 

Allegro Real Estate Brokers & Advisors of Cleveland, which represented the Benesch law firm in its lease at Key, on Oct. 21 filed a broker lien to record a claim for a $2.5 million commission owed by the building. Millennia Cos. owner Frank Sinito owns the high-rise through 127 PS Fee Owner LLC. The office tower also serves as the headquarters for Millennia's hospitality, restaurant and national multifamily property portfolio.

 

MORE:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/clevelands-tallest-office-tower-hit-lien-25m-commission

LOL, or change the city limits.

You said this as a joke but I have longed believed that in order for our region to be competitive we need to be one region and combine our resources together rather than poach and compete with each other. Columbus and Indy are examples that come to mind. The days of people flocking to our region due to a large availability of jobs, allowing every city to succeed in their own way are over.


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17 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

You said this as a joke but I have longed believed that in order for our region to be competitive we need to be one region and combine our resources together rather than poach and compete with each other.

Agreed, but how will it happen? They couldn't even get East Cleveland to agree to annexation. 

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Agreed, but how will it happen? They couldn't even get East Cleveland to agree to annexation. 

 

Even better question- is this on topic?