2 hours ago, Zagapi said:

 

Lol, the garage of this building is where I park my car, as well as the other residents for across the street.

 

We used to park in the garage at 1060 Bolivar when it was sold and construction started for the apartments shown in the photo here. 

 

If you need any inside scoop on this Ken, just let me know and I'll do some digging! 🤣

 

Thanks!

 

Key Tower in financial distress, too
By Ken Prendergast / June 19, 2024

 

According to a national real estate data and analytics firm, the 57-story Key Tower, 127 Public Square in Downtown Cleveland, is in financial distress. The distress is reportedly on the loans which the building’s owner secured to purchase the property in 2017. The owner itself is facing a growing number of financial issues, as well. But there may be a resolution on the horizon.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/06/19/key-tower-in-financial-distress-too/

Geez Office Market in trouble

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

Geez Office Market in trouble

 

Wait until AI starts taking lots of office jobs.

3 hours ago, simplythis said:

Geez Office Market in trouble

Maybe I'm missing a component to this... but the building is 88% leased, which would seem ok, assuming the owners held a responsible vacancy Contingency when building their proforma.

 

If all Tenants are paying rent on time, then in theory they shouldn't have any problems paying the mortgage.

 

If the building's rental occupancy was at 75% and falling (which it may be in the not so distant future), I'd say the increasingly perilous office market was the reason for this.

 

This sounds like financial mismanagement.

Edited June 19, 2024Jun 19 by Mov2Ohio

I imagine leases are less per square foot when the office market is down

4 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

I imagine leases are less per square foot when the office market is down

Yea, but when were the leases signed?

 

If pre-covid they should be good since corporate leases are usually for 10 or 15 year terms, if not longer and wouldn't have factored a post covid office market slump.

 

A lease signed post 2020 may have a discount, but, I guess that goes back to the original question asked in this post.

Wow can't believe nobody picked up on all the new tenants in 200 PS, seemed to happen overnight!!

 

 

10 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Wow can't believe nobody picked up on all the new tenants in 200 PS, seemed to happen overnight!!

 

 

I thought that was real signage at first.  My initial impression was, "how did Planning Commission approve something so ugly?"

18 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I thought that was real signage at first.  My initial impression was, "how did Planning Commission approve something so ugly?"

 

I meaaaan, the everyday signage here isn't much better- a lot more blank space. 

 

From '22 Streetview...

 

47 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

I meaaaan, the everyday signage here isn't much better- a lot more blank space. 

 

From '22 Streetview...

 

Wow.  PC did approve something of questionable style.  Although the central color is more acceptable than the fake one.  i guess the question in my mind is why the movie company went to the expense of changing it if it is simply visual background noise.  Maybe they need to do a close up of the sign to move the story forward for some reason.

Edited July 2, 2024Jul 2 by Htsguy

34 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Wow.  PC did approve something of questionable style.  Although the central color is more acceptable than the fake one.  i guess the question in my mind is why the movie company went to the expense of changing it if it is simply visual background noise.  Maybe they need to do a close up of the sign to move the story forward for some reason.

 

They've also changed the flags so it'll definitely be in the shots coming out of PS. I hear later this/next they'll be around PHX on E.9.

 

Here's some crappy shots of the new flags - wind doesn't like this spot!

 

 

 

 

On 7/2/2024 at 12:02 PM, GISguy said:

 

I meaaaan, the everyday signage here isn't much better- a lot more blank space. 

 

From '22 Streetview...

 

I just realized Cleveland Cliffs and Huntington Bank are missing from there. 

they're on the side of the building

Great news From Crain's:

 

According to the organization, in June, downtown Cleveland's return to office rate hit 71.9%, up from 65.1% in May. 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/economy/downtown-clevelands-return-office-rate-hits-five-year-high-june?utm_source=don-t-miss&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20240715&utm_content=article1-headline

More data...

 

 

Downtown Cleveland’s glimmers of hope
By Ken Prendergast / July 17, 2024

 

While it seems like foot traffic is up in Downtown Cleveland since the pandemic four years ago, different organizations that measure the city’s central business district’s economic performance have numbers backing up that perception. And that’s also reflective of increased numbers of workers returning to their offices and more residential conversions and occupancies as well. But those numbers are still far from robust.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/07/17/downtown-clevelands-glimmers-of-hope/

On 7/17/2024 at 2:44 PM, KJP said:

More data...

 

 

Downtown Cleveland’s glimmers of hope
By Ken Prendergast / July 17, 2024

 

While it seems like foot traffic is up in Downtown Cleveland since the pandemic four years ago, different organizations that measure the city’s central business district’s economic performance have numbers backing up that perception. And that’s also reflective of increased numbers of workers returning to their offices and more residential conversions and occupancies as well. But those numbers are still far from robust.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/07/17/downtown-clevelands-glimmers-of-hope/

I kept meaning to ask this. Are Cleveland and the county being strategic and trying to take up large empty buildings like they did for the police HQ and the Plain Dealer building? Or did it just happen that way?

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

Free parking is a hellova drug.

This but unironically. A downtown parking spot can easily cost $300/month, and whether the business or the employee is paying for it, that's a $3600 reduction in salary, far from inconsequential. If parking options are reduced that will only increase. Add in on average higher taxes and rents in the urban core, and the economic case a suburban company HQ can become compelling. Recent successes like Sherwin Williams show that the downtown can still make it's case, but in the era of work from home I've got to imagine that case is only getting harder. 

 

Unless a lot more people start living places they can get downtown without a car, I would expect the trend away from downtown offices to continue. In Cleveland and elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

Unless a lot more people start living places they can get downtown without a car, I would expect the trend away from downtown offices to continue. In Cleveland and elsewhere. 

 

We have in fact seen a trend toward more people living downtown.  If fewer of them need to travel to an office in this new work-from-home era, I can understand wanting to live where the restaurants, theaters, sports centers, lakefront, etc. is within walking distance, not in Brecksville where you have to have a car (the car tax).

5 hours ago, Foraker said:

 

We have in fact seen a trend toward more people living downtown.  If fewer of them need to travel to an office in this new work-from-home era, I can understand wanting to live where the restaurants, theaters, sports centers, lakefront, etc. is within walking distance, not in Brecksville where you have to have a car (the car tax).

 

With more people living downtown and remote work on the rise, many of those downtown residents are also downtown office workers. We just have to keep converting the next obsolete office buildings to residential to get more people working downtown! 

 

Can you imagine what downtown Cleveland would look like if a pandemic had hit before the residential population started shooting up 20-30 years ago? Actually, for reference, see St. Louis....

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

With more people living downtown and remote work on the rise, many of those downtown residents are also downtown office workers. We just have to keep converting the next obsolete office buildings to residential to get more people working downtown! 

 

Can you imagine what downtown Cleveland would look like if a pandemic had hit before the residential population started shooting up 20-30 years ago? Actually, for reference, see St. Louis....

And what is the Downtown Cleveland population in comparison to the downtown St Louis population

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

And what is the Downtown Cleveland population in comparison to the downtown St Louis population

 

Anywhere from 5,400 to 9,000, depending on what areas you count. 

On 7/19/2024 at 11:52 AM, JB said:

I kept meaning to ask this. Are Cleveland and the county being strategic and trying to take up large empty buildings like they did for the police HQ and the Plain Dealer building? Or did it just happen that way?

No idea, but I would "hope" any such agencies would be proactive in encouraging people that work for the city or county to be actively engaged in the city or county, thereby working Downtown and being part of what they are supposedly working to improve.

 

I mean, for example, most people on here would be annoyed to find out that GCRTA employees (especially management) are working from their home in Brecksville or Westlake with 2 or 3 cars in the garage (not a fact, just saying). Most of us would prefer that GCRTA had workers in an office Downtown, that used RTA to get downtown. Right? Same goes for city or county IMO.

11 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Anywhere from 5,400 to 9,000, depending on what areas you count. 

Wait I'm confused, the Downtown Cleveland population is 5,400? What is the 20,000 number that everyone touted? That is a drastic difference. 

18 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Wait I'm confused, the Downtown Cleveland population is 5,400? What is the 20,000 number that everyone touted? That is a drastic difference. 

I think he meant that Downtown Cleveland's population is greater than Downtown St. Louis by those numbers

Just now, GREGinPARMA said:

I think he meant that Downtown Cleveland's population is greater than Downtown St. Louis by those numbers

Ahhhh okay, thank you. 

On 8/28/2024 at 1:18 PM, Ethan said:

This but unironically. A downtown parking spot can easily cost $300/month, and whether the business or the employee is paying for it, that's a $3600 reduction in salary, far from inconsequential. If parking options are reduced that will only increase. Add in on average higher taxes and rents in the urban core, and the economic case a suburban company HQ can become compelling. Recent successes like Sherwin Williams show that the downtown can still make it's case, but in the era of work from home I've got to imagine that case is only getting harder. 

 

Unless a lot more people start living places they can get downtown without a car, I would expect the trend away from downtown offices to continue. In Cleveland and elsewhere. 

 

I was looking for the OP and finally found it elsewhere LOL.

 

It's not just the cost of parking.  It's less of an issue than it used to be, but the time and aggravation cost of commuting (especially in bad weather and/or heavy traffic) as well.

 

Many of the places where the perceived prestige of the downtown offices make up for the cost have many more WFH employees.   A good friend works for a major downtown law firm as a paralegal.   While the lawyers continue to work downtown, she almost never goes down there, and dislikes doing so.

 

There may be some benefit to appealing to people like her.  Well those who aren't introverts and don't have kids lol.

On 8/28/2024 at 11:22 PM, metrocity said:

No idea, but I would "hope" any such agencies would be proactive in encouraging people that work for the city or county to be actively engaged in the city or county, thereby working Downtown and being part of what they are supposedly working to improve.

 

I mean, for example, most people on here would be annoyed to find out that GCRTA employees (especially management) are working from their home in Brecksville or Westlake with 2 or 3 cars in the garage (not a fact, just saying). Most of us would prefer that GCRTA had workers in an office Downtown, that used RTA to get downtown. Right? Same goes for city or county IMO.

 

The city had some of the strictest return to office/limited wfh during COVID and the county was a bit more liberal but pretty similar. CCHQ has been full pretty much since vaccines came out. The county also offers generous subsidies for RTA and recently upgraded the bike area at HQ and it's often full of bikes, so I think it's safe to say that the bureaucrats are walking the walk. 

 

That said, the county is currently drafting WFH policies for two days wfh, the rest in the office. I don't think it takes much googling to find that being anti-wfh doesn't work out well for an organization and govt. is no different- especially when salaries are much lower than private sector (even after accounting for benefits).

Edited August 30, 2024Aug 30 by GISguy

40 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

I was looking for the OP and finally found it elsewhere LOL.

 

It's not just the cost of parking.  It's less of an issue than it used to be, but the time and aggravation cost of commuting (especially in bad weather and/or heavy traffic) as well.

 

Many of the places where the perceived prestige of the downtown offices make up for the cost have many more WFH employees.   A good friend works for a major downtown law firm as a paralegal.   While the lawyers continue to work downtown, she almost never goes down there, and dislikes doing so.

 

There may be some benefit to appealing to people like her.  Well those who aren't introverts and don't have kids lol.

I was in Cincinnati recently and have to laugh at the thought of "traffic" in Cleveland.  Yes, there is the "time" cost of commuting and parking, but Cleveland doesn't know how good we've got it.

It reminds me of how so many Americans who have never traveled overseas to see how people live in other countries think that "everything is better in the U.S.A."

 

Personally, I think there are a lot of advantages to at least part time working with your colleagues in an office -- onboarding, creating loyalty to the business and company culture, etc.  But I think we've reached the point where almost everyone who sits at a desk all day will want to work from home at least part time, and that's likely to continue.

 

Diversity in work styles -- working from home or working in an office with your coworkers -- might be another "rights" battle on the horizon.  I imagine there are already lawsuits filed by workers who think they can do their job "just as well" while working from home and want to force their employer to allow them to do so.

 

 

I think we’d have a stronger downtown office market if we had more job creation and population growth happening in general. There isn’t much need for proximity for many office jobs in our region, which leads employers to look for locations that are affordable and convenient. Even without WFH, most big companies are connected to national and international markets, which means many of the people a worker interfaces with regularly are not even in our region. 

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

I was in Cincinnati recently and have to laugh at the thought of "traffic" in Cleveland.  Yes, there is the "time" cost of commuting and parking, but Cleveland doesn't know how good we've got it.

It reminds me of how so many Americans who have never traveled overseas to see how people live in other countries think that "everything is better in the U.S.A."

 

Personally, I think there are a lot of advantages to at least part time working with your colleagues in an office -- onboarding, creating loyalty to the business and company culture, etc.  But I think we've reached the point where almost everyone who sits at a desk all day will want to work from home at least part time, and that's likely to continue.

 

Diversity in work styles -- working from home or working in an office with your coworkers -- might be another "rights" battle on the horizon.  I imagine there are already lawsuits filed by workers who think they can do their job "just as well" while working from home and want to force their employer to allow them to do so.

 

 

 

As I said, traffic is less of an issue than it used to be around here.  Partly due to sprawl, partly due to targeting known bottlenecks.  

 

Office work emphasizes politics and benefits extroverts and "soft skills" people.  One of the less frequently mentioned changes the internet has brought is that introverts can more comfortably network with and reinforce each other, and push back on this.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

I was in Cincinnati recently and have to laugh at the thought of "traffic" in Cleveland.  Yes, there is the "time" cost of commuting and parking, but Cleveland doesn't know how good we've got it.

It reminds me of how so many Americans who have never traveled overseas to see how people live in other countries think that "everything is better in the U.S.A."

 

Personally, I think there are a lot of advantages to at least part time working with your colleagues in an office -- onboarding, creating loyalty to the business and company culture, etc.  But I think we've reached the point where almost everyone who sits at a desk all day will want to work from home at least part time, and that's likely to continue.

 

Diversity in work styles -- working from home or working in an office with your coworkers -- might be another "rights" battle on the horizon.  I imagine there are already lawsuits filed by workers who think they can do their job "just as well" while working from home and want to force their employer to allow them to do so.

 

 

That's because Downtown Cincinnati is full of narrow pedestrian sized one way's that slow traffic flow versus the wider two way streets in Downtown Cleveland. Our roads are now overbuilt while Cincinnati due to its narrow, dense, east coast style layout does not necessarily face that same issue. 

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

Office work emphasizes politics and benefits extroverts and "soft skills" people.  One of the less frequently mentioned changes the internet has brought is that introverts can more comfortably network with and reinforce each other, and push back on this. 

Meh -- I somewhat disagree, but I can see how that might be the case in different businesses. 

 

In my company, politics only gets you so far. We know how much each person brings to the table -- show me the money -- competence and teamwork go much further than who is liked better by the boss.  Obviously, that is not the case in every business.  The introverts here who are working remotely have gotten lost in the shuffle.  And it was extremely difficult (and largely unsuccessful) to onboard new employees during the all-remote period of COVID.  [The new guys always say "who the heck is George?" even though he's been in tons of meetings with them from the start (this is a guy who has worked from home since COVID and never talks to anyone unless he has to, seems to get his work done mostly on time and mostly ok, never takes on extra work or goes out of his way to communicate, doesn't turn his camera on during video meetings -- that guy.)]

 

To succeed here, even if introverted you have to make that extra effort to communicate with your team at the very least.  Some introverts can do that via email better than in person, but if they're not making the effort, they're even more forgotten and passed over than if they had been in the office where they are more likely to be forced to have those interactions.  If you're super-competent and a hard worker, maybe you can get away with less communication, but those aren't the "typical" introverts in our business.  And I think that is why some sort of hybrid is going to become the norm.  The introverts will get more time alone, but they're not going to be able to avoid all in-person interactions and the business will be better for that compromise.

 

Hybrid work will probably mean fewer offices, and more people will want to live downtown to be closer to their office so that they don't have to drive.  We have people at both ends of their career, starting out and downsizing, living downtown now.  And they all say how they love walking to the office, to the ballgames, to all the downtown restaurants/bars.  Seems more like we're going through a transition of what downtown is going to be than a true death-of-downtown-offices.

 

Downtown employers reconsider suburban moves
By Ken Prendergast / October 2, 2024

 

Two large Downtown Cleveland employers may be reversing course regarding their future office locations. One was bound and determined to leave for the suburbs but now its plans are up in the air. And despite the grist coming from the real estate rumor mill, the other employer says it’s not going anywhere — yet.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/10/02/downtown-employers-reconsider-suburban-moves/

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Downtown employers reconsider suburban moves
By Ken Prendergast / October 2, 2024

 

Two large Downtown Cleveland employers may be reversing course regarding their future office locations. One was bound and determined to leave for the suburbs but now its plans are up in the air. And despite the grist coming from the real estate rumor mill, the other employer says it’s not going anywhere — yet.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/10/02/downtown-employers-reconsider-suburban-moves/

Would be sad to lose both - hopefully they can both find new digs elsewhere downtown soon. I see why the Gray media workers would want out as that backside streetscape of Reserve Square honestly can resemble Mad Max Thunderdome on a dreary sunless windswept days. That is why it is critical that Playhouse Square expedites their northern expansion plans for the adjacent Greyhound superblock. For AmTrust hopefully economic conditions improve quickly to trigger some new Class A office construction for such large employers.

Reserve Square is one of, if not, the ugliest looking building downtown. 

2 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Reserve Square is one of, if not, the ugliest looking building downtown. 

Not sure what you can do about that.  It's a product of its time.

 

Not every building has to be a piece of art.  But I'll second @Willo, if Playhouse Square would put something interesting on the Greyhound block, we could more easily overlook Reserve Square.

17 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Not sure what you can do about that.  It's a product of its time.

 

Not every building has to be a piece of art.  But I'll second @Willo, if Playhouse Square would put something interesting on the Greyhound block, we could more easily overlook Reserve Square.

Did I say it had to be a piece of art? I saw the photo in the article and decided to comment my opinion. 

5 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Did I say it had to be a piece of art? I saw the photo in the article and decided to comment my opinion. 

And I'm not disputing it.  In fact I agree with you that it is one of the ugliest buildings downtown.

21 minutes ago, Foraker said:

And I'm not disputing it.  In fact I agree with you that it is one of the ugliest buildings downtown.

The inside does look pretty nice, however. Anyways...

2 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Did I say it had to be a piece of art? I saw the photo in the article and decided to comment my opinion. 

Why so aggressive? Two things can be true at the same time, it can be ugly (to some) due to the time period it was built. 

Cleveland seemed to embrace Brutalism in the 60s/early 70s.  I suppose that was the case in other cities as well.

Cohen & Co Building hit with foreclosure. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/cohen-co-building-playhouse-square-hit-foreclosure

I can't seem to wrap my head around these bargain basement prices. Less than 11 million for a structure as beautiful as the Rose building? Sure, l understand WFH along with some other societal changes have greatly transformed the downtown office market. It's just that it's hard for an old guy like me to digest that much change that fast.  Downtown used to be synonymous with offices. Companies HAD to be there. Now they don't. Shopping malls were THE place to be. Now they're not. I get it, things change but man, those two changes took place in a very short time period. There was an American way of life and then there wasn't. Almost overnight.

Terry Coyne sounds cautiously optimistic about a continued trend in commercial real estate development through 2025, tho he sites the permitting process as a pain point.

 

Commercial real estate construction doubled in Cleveland in 2024

Published: Dec. 27, 2024

By Megan Sims, cleveland.com

 

Through mid-November, Cleveland’s permit-processing department recorded $2.3 billion worth of new construction in 2024 on commercial projects across the city, according to data from City Hall.

 

That’s more than double what Cleveland saw in 2023, when the city logged a little more than $1 billion worth of construction on commercial projects, according to the city’s figures.

 

...

 

headquarters building, MetroHealth’s Apex building, and various Cleveland Clinic projects -- contributed to the higher total but weren’t solely responsible for it, city officials said. Many of the gains are the result of smaller construction projects happening across every neighborhood in Cleveland, they said.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2024/12/commercial-real-estate-construction-doubled-in-cleveland-in-2024.html

well yeah the developer got a bargain — lets just hope they follow through with the redevelopment. its going to take a lot of interior work and time, but thats ok as long as it actually gets to the finish line.

On 12/19/2024 at 2:28 PM, TheCOV said:

And most restaurants just arent able to sustain lunch service anymore with so few customers.

 

i’ll throw one more ember on the fire. nobody drinks anymore. day drinking especially is a lost art. 😂

9 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

i’ll throw one more ember on the fire. nobody drinks anymore. day drinking especially is a lost art. 😂

Hopefully the 500 building occupants rediscover the art!  

9 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

i’ll throw one more ember on the fire. nobody drinks anymore. day drinking especially is a lost art. 😂

As a dad now, I have perfected it.

11 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

i’ll throw one more ember on the fire. nobody drinks anymore. day drinking especially is a lost art. 😂

I’ll say that every time I’m back in the UK, I’m always pleasantly surprised at how busy the pubs are with the post-office crowd, especially in the big cities (e.g. London, Manchester). Of course, that depends on having a downtown office crowd in the first place and it also helps massively that most all of those people are walking home, or taking public transportation. I have high hopes for this project in bringing at least some of that vitality back. As Ken’s article states, the number of residents won’t compare to the number of employees that MM had there, but I moved downtown over 10 years ago and IME you’d never had known that over a thousand people worked in that building. The MM crowd generally seemed to be a very suburban crew who packed their lunch and came to work downtown and nothing more. They simply got in and got out every day. The move to Brooklyn probably suited most of them to a tee.